Most Americans hate the tax code, but for the wrong reasons

[Peter1469]

Most Americans hate the tax code, but for the wrong reasons (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/032415-744959-pew-survey-finds-people-wrongly-think-rich-dont-pay-fair-share.htm)

Investors' dot com wrote an article about the negative reaction within the US towards the tax code.


Tax Reform: The good news is Americans are fed up with the current code. The bad news is most think the biggest problem is that corporations and the rich don't pay enough.


A Pew Research Center survey found that 59% of the public say so much is wrong with the tax code "that Congress should completely change it." Just 38% think it needs only minor tinkering.


Broken down by party, two-thirds of Republicans want a tax overhaul, as do 63% of independents. But just 48% of Democrats say the tax code needs to be completely changed.


That should hearten serious tax reformers who want a simpler, pro-growth tax system.


Troubling, though, is the biggest problem cited by most is their perception that corporations and the rich "don't pay their fair share" of taxes. Nearly two-thirds say this bothers them "a lot."


There is nothing on which to base these complaints.


Read More At Investor's Business Daily: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/032415-744959-pew-survey-finds-people-wrongly-think-rich-dont-pay-fair-share.htm#ixzz3VRS1l1yF
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[Bob]

I am with you on that Peter.

[Bo-4]

You're kidding right.. nothing to base complaints on the FACT that uber-wealthy and cash rich Fortune 1000 don't pay their fair share?

Sorry, link unworthy.. the American people are CORRECT.

[GrassrootsConservative]

"Fair share" is for you to dictate?

Fuck that noise.

/Edit: Taxes should be on a "Golden Rule" basis. The people who should pay the most are those that want others to pay the most.

[zelmo1234]

There is good reason to hate the tax code. A corporation of any size needs a controller, accountant and tax lawyer just to stay legal.

The average citizens pays firms just to get their own money back from the government. it is too complex.

And Bo-4 Maybe you could tell use just what that fair share should be?

[Dr. Who]

These links add some additional dimension to the OP.


http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/03/24/high-income-americans-pay-most-income-taxes-but-enough-to-be-fair/
http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2007/02/outsourcing_wheres_uncle_sam.html

[Peter1469]

You're kidding right.. nothing to base complaints on the FACT that uber-wealthy and cash rich Fortune 1000 don't pay their fair share?

Sorry, link unworthy.. the American people are CORRECT.

Don't make idiotic statements. (http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/rich-taxes/)
The top 10 percent of taxpayers paid over 70% of the total amount collected in federal income taxes in 2010, the latest year figures are available, according to the Tax Foundation, a think tank that advocates for lower taxes. That's up from 55% in 1986.

[Crepitus]

Don't make idiotic statements. (http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/rich-taxes/)
That's because the top 10% have re engineered the economy so that they make over 90% of the money. We should go back to 1960s tax rates.

[Peter1469]

That's because the top 10% have re engineered the economy so that they make over 90% of the money. We should go back to 1960s tax rates.They paid much less as a group back then.

[Crepitus]

They paid much less as a group back then.
But everyone else's income has dropped to the point where they pay little if any taxes. I'm sure they would prefer to garner a larger share of the income and pay taxes on it rather than the way things are now.

[GrassrootsConservative]

That's because the top 10% have re engineered the economy so that they make over 90% of the money. We should go back to 1960s tax rates.

Because those worked out so well...

[Crepitus]

Because those worked out so well...
Better than today's for sure.

[Peter1469]

But everyone else's income has dropped to the point where they pay little if any taxes. I'm sure they would prefer to garner a larger share of the income and pay taxes on it rather than the way things are now.

Incorrect. You started by comparing 1960s tax rates to today and seem to be now taking about since the 2008 crash. Which do you want to compare? The CBO is likely up to date as of 2012.

[texan]

Just stop calling me rich in the tax code and not rich in speeches democrats!

[Crepitus]

Incorrect. You started by comparing 1960s tax rates to today and seem to be now taking about since the 2008 crash. Which do you want to compare? The CBO is likely up to date as of 2012.
Middle class incomes have been fall since way before 2008.

[Peter1469]

Middle class incomes have been fall since way before 2008.

Show me. But include middle class benefits- like employer health care. I only say that, because I have seen the rising cost of health care as the cause of a stagnant middle class wage. Outside of off-shoring.

[Crepitus]

Show me. But include middle class benefits- like employer health care. I only say that, because I have seen the rising cost of health care as the cause of a stagnant middle class wage. Outside of off-shoring.

Outside of offshoring? Might as well say "it was a nice day outside of the hurricane".

[Peter1469]

Outside of offshoring? Might as well say "it was a nice day outside of the hurricane".
Doge and weave doesn't count.

[Hal Jordan]

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.

[Bob]

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read.

Thanks for letting me know. I won't go there.

[Cthulhu]

Most Americans hate the tax code, but for the wrong reasons (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/032415-744959-pew-survey-finds-people-wrongly-think-rich-dont-pay-fair-share.htm)

Investors' dot com wrote an article about the negative reaction within the US towards the tax code.
The fact that it exists is reason enough to hate it.

It has all of the same virtues and charm of a genital wart.

Sent from my evil, kitten eating cell phone.

[The Xl]

The wealthiest Americans and corporations are highly subsidized and have plenty of loopholes. They've also rigged the game so that they wind up with the lion share of the wealth.

This does not generally apply to the fringe rich, who actually pay insane levels of taxes.

[donttread]

Most Americans hate the tax code, but for the wrong reasons (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/032415-744959-pew-survey-finds-people-wrongly-think-rich-dont-pay-fair-share.htm)

Investors' dot com wrote an article about the negative reaction within the US towards the tax code.

We should be fed up with the tax code for many reasons, not the least of which is that it is more about controlling our fiscal behavior than it is about raising revenue

[Ransom]

You're kidding right.. nothing to base complaints on the FACT that uber-wealthy and cash rich Fortune 1000 don't pay their fair share?

Can you link to proof of that statement no one believes you.


Sorry, link unworthy.. the American people are CORRECT.

At least he provided a link, where is yours?

Oops

[Crepitus]

Doge and weave doesn't count.
No Pete, it doesn't, including your little "outside of offshoring" dodge.

[Peter1469]

No Pete, it doesn't, including your little "outside of offshoring" dodge.

That wasn't a dodge and weave, although I see you didn't understand the comment.

I meant that other than off shoring middle class jobs, the largest thing that has harmed middle class wages has been the increasing costs of health care.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Crepitus]

OK Peter1469. Here's some statistics for you

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/U.S._Income_-_Changes_by_Income_Group_1979-2011.png/450px-U.S._Income_-_Changes_by_Income_Group_1979-2011.png
Inflation-adjusted percent increase in pre-tax and after-tax household income between 1979 and 2011, by pre-tax income group

However I still think saying "I have seen the rising cost of health care as the cause of a stagnant middle class wage. Outside of off-shoring."
is like saying "It was good good ski trip outside ending up permanently paralysed from the neck down" or "things were going great until I caught fire".

[Peter1469]

Maybe this helps: had health insurance costs not risen several times higher than the rate of inflation, wages would have been higher than they were during that time period.


OK @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10). Here's some statistics for you


Inflation-adjusted percent increase in pre-tax and after-tax household income between 1979 and 2011, by pre-tax income group

However I still think saying "I have seen the rising cost of health care as the cause of a stagnant middle class wage. Outside of off-shoring."
is like saying "It was good good ski trip outside ending up permanently paralysed from the neck down" or "things were going great until I caught fire".

[Bo-4]

Don't make idiotic statements. (http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/economy/rich-taxes/)

Gee Peter1469 - Could that be because they made 90% of the money?

Then they should be paying 90% of the taxes. Why do you suppose they paid less as a total percentage in 1986?

Because they'd only taken 40% or so of the candy?

Duh

[Crepitus]

Maybe this helps: had health insurance costs not risen several times higher than the rate of inflation, wages would have been higher than they were during that time period.
There is definitely some truth there, but I still don't think it's had anywhere near as much effect as outsourcing.

[Peter1469]

Gee @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) - Could that be because they made 90% of the money?

Then they should be paying 90% of the taxes. Why do you suppose they paid less as a total percentage in 1986?

Because they'd only taken 40% or so of the candy?

Duh
The top 10% have never paid that much of the total tax, even under the "good old days" of high marginal tax rates. You need to ponder your duh. :smiley:

[Peter1469]

There is definitely some truth there, but I still don't think it's had anywhere near as much effect as outsourcing.

It did on the jobs inside the US.

[Crepitus]

It did on the jobs inside the US.
I have some doubts. I personally think the threat of outsourcing letting the bigger companies keep the wages low is a much greater effect. I know of no available statistics either way though.

[Bo-4]

The top 10% have never paid that much of the total tax, even under the "good old days" of high marginal tax rates. You need to ponder your duh. :smiley:

Your sources are funded by the uber-wealthy. Not credible.

Let me ask you something ...

Do you feel that it's cool for Mitt Romney to pay 13% on his 25 million or more in capital gains each year, offshore money in the Caymans, and amass over 100 million in his IRA using loopholes unavailable to the rest of us?

[texan]

OK @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10). Here's some statistics for you

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a6/U.S._Income_-_Changes_by_Income_Group_1979-2011.png/450px-U.S._Income_-_Changes_by_Income_Group_1979-2011.png
Inflation-adjusted percent increase in pre-tax and after-tax household income between 1979 and 2011, by pre-tax income group

However I still think saying "I have seen the rising cost of health care as the cause of a stagnant middle class wage. Outside of off-shoring."
is like saying "It was good good ski trip outside ending up permanently paralysed from the neck down" or "things were going great until I caught fire".

Is this a lame attempt to justify Obamacare?

Middle class families can afford Healthcare, HC is not the cause. BTW just to set the record straight HC started to go down in 2010, 2 years before Obamacare was implemented. The president is running around claiming (out of context) that costs are down and crediting his plan. Another politician misleading the public what a shocker. Harvard Medicine says its way to early to see what impact Obamacare will have and none of the cost reduction is due to that plan thus far.

The business shift in incentivising the CEO, COO's and CFO's of the world to huge paydays for driving out costs is the big reason. The sharing that used to occur is not in play anymore. The money is being pocketed by executives. It is all motivated by EBITA. The only way to maximize this category is to squeeze the workers. It is that simple.

[Crepitus]

Is this a lame attempt to justify Obamacare?

Middle class families can afford Healthcare, HC is not the cause. BTW just to set the record straight HC started to go down in 2010, 2 years before Obamacare was implemented. The president is running around claiming (out of context) that costs are down and crediting his plan. Another politician misleading the public what a shocker. Harvard Medicine says its way to early to see what impact Obamacare will have and none of the cost reduction is due to that plan thus far.

The business shift in incentivising the CEO, COO's and CFO's of the world to huge paydays for driving out costs is the big reason. The sharing that used to occur is not in play anymore. The money is being pocketed by executives. It is all motivated by EBITA. The only way to maximize this category is to squeeze the workers. It is that simple.
Not what we were talking about, but go ahead and bash, I know how you love it. :rollseyes:

[Mr. Right]

Your sources are funded by the uber-wealthy. Not credible.

Let me ask you something ...

Do you feel that it's cool for Mitt Romney to pay 13% on his 25 million or more in capital gains each year, offshore money in the Caymans, and amass over 100 million in his IRA using loopholes unavailable to the rest of us?

As long as your asking that question, is it fair that small business people like myself are forced to pay 31% tax on any profit? Doesn't make you want to excel knowing you're forfieting nearly 1/3rd. Even IRS knows it's not fair.

[Peter1469]

I have some doubts. I personally think the threat of outsourcing letting the bigger companies keep the wages low is a much greater effect. I know of no available statistics either way though.

I imagine that is a factor as well.

[Peter1469]

There is nothing wrong with my sources. The data originally comes from the CBO.

About Mitt- he paid more in taxes in 2012 than you will pay over the course of your life.

I wouldn't tax capital gains or income. I would tax sales.


Your sources are funded by the uber-wealthy. Not credible.

Let me ask you something ...

Do you feel that it's cool for Mitt Romney to pay 13% on his 25 million or more in capital gains each year, offshore money in the Caymans, and amass over 100 million in his IRA using loopholes unavailable to the rest of us?

[Bo-4]

There is nothing wrong with my sources. The data originally comes from the CBO.

About Mitt- he paid more in taxes in 2012 than you will pay over the course of your life.

I wouldn't tax capital gains or income. I would tax sales.

Not a terrible idea, but the problem is that the poor and middle class spend close to 100% of their income thus affecting them disproportionately.

I might be good with that IF essentials such as food and shelter weren't taxed.

Note: Shelter on PRIMARY residence up to a CAP - IOW, Mitt doesn't get to skate on his umpteen McMansions.

[nic34]

Most Americans hate the tax code, but for the wrong reasons (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/032415-744959-pew-survey-finds-people-wrongly-think-rich-dont-pay-fair-share.htm)

Investors' dot com wrote an article about the negative reaction within the US towards the tax code.

My son with an entry level job as a skilled mechanic pays a higher tax RATE than Mitt Romney.

[donttread]

How about we tax people based upon the government spending they PERSONALLY SUPPORT? Tax libs and war hawks alike and leave us Libertarians the fuck alone!

[nic34]

How about we tax people based upon the government spending they PERSONALLY SUPPORT? Tax libs and war hawks alike and leave us Libertarians the $#@! alone!

Great idea. Now get ready to pay extra for the IRS to implement such a cherry-pick plan....

[Bo-4]

Can you link to proof of that statement no one believes you.

At least he provided a link, where is yours?

Oops

Links are not needed for commonly known facts. The capital gains tax is only 15%.

Mitt has over a hundred mil in his IRA.. the rest of us are capped at $5500 ($6500 if over 50).

So Mitt gets to put two million a year into his?

Tell us how that's fair.

[Peter1469]

Not a terrible idea, but the problem is that the poor and middle class spend close to 100% of their income thus affecting them disproportionately.

I might be good with that IF essentials such as food and shelter weren't taxed.

Note: Shelter on PRIMARY residence up to a CAP - IOW, Mitt doesn't get to skate on his umpteen McMansions.

I would agree on food and lodging not being taxed.

Also people could avoid taxes by buying used. When I decide to buy a new SUV, I could sell my old one to a poor person and he wouldn't have to pay any taxes.

[Peter1469]

My son with an entry level job as a skilled mechanic pays a higher tax RATE than Mitt Romney.

Mitt paid more in taxes in 2012 than your immediate family will pay in your lives- combined.

[Bob]

Links are not needed for commonly known facts. The capital gains tax is only 15%.

Mitt has over a hundred mil in his IRA.. the rest of us are capped at $5500 ($6500 if over 50).

So Mitt gets to put two million a year into his?

Tell us how that's fair.

It's his money. Do you understand the rights to property?

There is no fair or bad. Mitt by law earned that money.

[Peter1469]

In this case links would help. Short term capital gains (https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/tax-tips/Investments-and-Taxes/Guide-to-Short-term-vs-Long-term-Capital-Gains-Taxes--Brokerage-Accounts--etc--/INF22384.html) are taxed as ordinary income. Long term capital gains (https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/tax-tips/Investments-and-Taxes/Guide-to-Short-term-vs-Long-term-Capital-Gains-Taxes--Brokerage-Accounts--etc--/INF22384.html) are taxed at 0, 15, or 20% depending upon your income.


Links are not needed for commonly known facts. The capital gains tax is only 15%.

Mitt has over a hundred mil in his IRA.. the rest of us are capped at $5500 ($6500 if over 50).

So Mitt gets to put two million a year into his?

Tell us how that's fair.

[texan]

Not what we were talking about, but go ahead and bash, I know how you love it. :rollseyes:


Disagree and a caution flag. Do not confuse facts with bashing it is not good for your intelligence level. So tell me what I posted that was wrong, you can't!

Now on the discussion it was clearly stated that the reason middle class wages were stagnant because of Healthcare...........That is not the reason and I pretty much obliterated that bologna. But it was a nice attempt at justifying Ocare.

[texan]

BTW I am not a complete Ocare basher.........But I am really pissed at the president pissing down my back and telling me it was raining. The numbers or program never passed the smell test and they all knew it but just kept lying about it! it is approaching 2 trillion and started at 850 Mil.

That is why I am pissed. You can't add 40 million (yet to see that number) get covered and somehow save everyone money............BULLCRAP!

I like the precondition stuff and I like that the exchanges allow people to buy. But, he had the ability (and made campaign promises) to pass this act and to get some consensus all he had to do was to pick off a couple of republicans and add a couple good ideas. Allow for some real meaningful debate. He didn't he chose to ram this down everyone's throat.......Poor leadership and not well thought out.

These are my issues........and you have seen the poor launch and mess created that could have been avoided by some help across the isle. He continues to blame everyone else but he was the person that was in control and could have created some real trust and togetherness. He chose not to.

PS: The Tea Party he complains so much about was created by him over this mess, thank yourself prez.

[Mac-7]

My son with an entry level job as a skilled mechanic pays a higher tax RATE than Mitt Romney.

If Romney was an auto mechanic he would pay a higher tax rate too.

But he is retired and most of his wealth is in investments that are taxed at a lower rate than income.

[donttread]

If Romney was an auto mechanic he would pay a higher tax rate too.

But he is retired and most of his wealth is in investments that are taxed at a lower rate than income.

Unearned income should never be taxed lower than earned income

[Don]

I don't see why people can't see that John Q. Public pays for it all one way or another. For businesses taxes are part of the cost of production. Who really pays their "share" of it?

[Bob]

I don't see why people can't see that John Q. Public pays for it all one way or another. For businesses taxes are part of the cost of production. Who really pays their "share" of it?

If we discuss patriot act, super fast one reads ... I don't want the Feds snooping into my affairs.

Fair enough.

Income taxes give the Feds the right to do what? Snoop into your affairs. Matter of fact, to hear your phone calls, they must get a warrant.

To know your financial affairs, by law, and using a gun if needed, you will tell them your entire financial affairs.

Most hate telling their affairs. Till Democrats tell them that this snooping by the Feds is just awesome.

[Bob]

Unearned income should never be taxed lower than earned income

Income should NEVER be taxed.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by nic34 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1015360#post1015360)
My son with an entry level job as a skilled mechanic pays a higher tax RATE than Mitt Romney.


If Romney was an auto mechanic he would pay a higher tax rate too.

But he is retired and most of his wealth is in investments that are taxed at a lower rate than income.

And we should remind him that Romney is just one man. That in total dollars, he pours much more cash into the Feds than does his mechanic son.

Democrats spread lies by saying percent rate. That does not matter.

What matters to the Feds is how much per person they get. The mechanic pays next to nothing compared to Romney.

FAIR tax solves all of this.