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Guerilla
04-15-2015, 12:03 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo

This video outlines some problems with voting in a multiple party system and how it will just turn into a two party system which is bad too. It talks about human psychology and how people think in party systems. It talks about voter frustration/turnout, and other things that I think are relevant to the US problem.

Redrose
04-15-2015, 12:59 AM
I agree with that, so how do we fix our mess?

GrassrootsConservative
04-15-2015, 01:23 AM
Turtle 2016!

Guerilla
04-15-2015, 01:25 AM
You guys already know my solution, but no one likes it, so I was wondering what everyone else's well thought out plans were.

It would seem we have a mess, on many different levels.

Guerilla
04-15-2015, 01:27 AM
Turtle 2016!

Yes, quite.

Guerilla
04-15-2015, 01:30 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2727494721/9add07197a0c8183fa1c33448b7c2214_400x400.jpeg

Hal Jordan
04-15-2015, 01:55 AM
You guys already know my solution, but no one likes it, so I was wondering what everyone else's well thought out plans were.

It would seem we have a mess, on many different levels.

Well, not all of us know it... :tongue:

Seriously, I'm curious...

Guerilla
04-15-2015, 02:26 AM
Well, not all of us know it... :tongue:

Seriously, I'm curious...

Oh, right. Well, I'm an anarcho-syndicalist as accurate as I can put it. I think that would be the most ideal thing possible because I think it makes things very secure for the most people, long term. I think it's also a lot more adaptable to change, which has become more and more important.

But, this philosophy also demands a lot from people. More than many are currently capable of, or currently willing to work toward.

One of the other problems I think is that people want quick solutions, but the reality is, we need something way more than that, and there isn't an easy solution. Not just with government but society in general. Afterall, many of the problems are a result of deteriorating society, moreso than government per se.

So I guess I'm saying we need a full on cultural change, and the government usually hinders that no matter what you do with it. The more decentralization the better.

zelmo1234
04-15-2015, 02:47 AM
Anarcho-syndicalism
Political Ideology
Anarcho-syndicalism is a theory of anarchism which views revolutionary industrial unionism or syndicalism as a method for workers in capitalist society to gain control of an economy and, with that control, influence broader society

The problem with this system is that if bleeds capital form the system and R & D suffer, soon your system is antiquated and you are battling not only superior technology but you offerings are not desired by the citizens of the world.

This you become China. Low cost labor and you steal your technology. It also opens the door for tribal lords, that use force to bend the will of the people.

Thus as pointed out, in order to be successful it demands much from the citizens and assumes that they will make choices that hurt them in order to insure the progress of the many!

Because the battle human nature it is difficult

Guerilla
04-15-2015, 03:13 AM
Anarcho-syndicalism
Political Ideology
Anarcho-syndicalism is a theory of anarchism which views revolutionary industrial unionism or syndicalism as a method for workers in capitalist society to gain control of an economy and, with that control, influence broader society

The problem with this system is that if bleeds capital form the system and R & D suffer, soon your system is antiquated and you are battling not only superior technology but you offerings are not desired by the citizens of the world.

This you become China. Low cost labor and you steal your technology. It also opens the door for tribal lords, that use force to bend the will of the people.

Thus as pointed out, in order to be successful it demands much from the citizens and assumes that they will make choices that hurt them in order to insure the progress of the many!

Because the battle human nature it is difficult

I'm not going correct all your innaccuracies on anarcho-syndicalism right now.

Do you have a solution?

Common
04-15-2015, 03:43 AM
Cant be fixed to make it the way you want. You will never get the backing of enough voters and congress and their "rich" backers wont allow it.

Congress doesnt run this country or make the rules. The 2% dictates

Peter1469
04-15-2015, 03:56 AM
I posted a thread months (or so) ago comparing the primary process to the old party machines. Of course the party machines were corrupt, but they seemed to have produced better politicians than the primary process has.

Common
04-15-2015, 03:59 AM
I posted a thread months (or so) ago comparing the primary process to the old party machines. Of course the party machines were corrupt, but they seemed to have produced better politicians than the primary process has.

Thats because there is so much more money in politics now. Any idiot billionaire with a personal want can bankroll any idiot that does what he tells him in any state along with the general election. Like Simon Adelsen of Las Vegas pouring MILLIONS into the fla election because he wants Casinos there

Thank you Citizens United

Peter1469
04-15-2015, 04:03 AM
You need to market candidate more in the primary system and you end up with weak milk toasts because they need to appeal to a broader range of people.

Common
04-15-2015, 04:06 AM
You need to market candidate more in the primary system and you end up with weak milk toasts because they need to appeal to a broader range of people.

Garbage candidates that have no chance at all only in the race to dilute the results and guide to towards the one candidate of choice

Guerilla
04-16-2015, 10:06 PM
Cant be fixed to make it the way you want. You will never get the backing of enough voters and congress and their "rich" backers wont allow it.

Congress doesnt run this country or make the rules. The 2% dictates


Thats because there is so much more money in politics now. Any idiot billionaire with a personal want can bankroll any idiot that does what he tells him in any state along with the general election. Like Simon Adelsen of Las Vegas pouring MILLIONS into the fla election because he wants Casinos there

Thank you Citizens United

It sounds to me like money has too much undue influence over peoples lives. How would we free people, or at least the political system, from this influence?

Guerilla
04-16-2015, 10:10 PM
You need to market candidate more in the primary system and you end up with weak milk toasts because they need to appeal to a broader range of people.

But America has a broad range of people. So what's a guy to do?

Hal Jordan
04-16-2015, 10:35 PM
It sounds to me like money has too much undue influence over peoples lives. How would we free people, or at least the political system, from this influence?

With government, we would have to enact laws taking the money out of the campaign process. This is one way the internet would be useful for campaigning. That said, it's unlikely to happen, because the money is already in power. It would take the people getting pissed off enough to stand up against the system.

In general, we have an even trickier situation. It's something I don't think you can change for all. It would involve changing the perceptions of individuals.

Guerilla
04-16-2015, 11:07 PM
With government, we would have to enact laws taking the money out of the campaign process. This is one way the internet would be useful for campaigning. That said, it's unlikely to happen, because the money is already in power. It would take the people getting pissed off enough to stand up against the system.

In general, we have an even trickier situation. It's something I don't think you can change for all. It would involve changing the perceptions of individuals.

If we take money out of it completely, then we would also have to make sure the candidates kept campaigning to the internet, or some other field where everything is equal. Otherwise, the rich would just fund their own campaigns, with no loopholes to have to get around. Another option would be having the public pay for candidates campaigns, which essentially neutralizes the money aspect as far as candidates are concerned. And I agree, the current power structure may have too much inertia to correct everything smoothly.

As for individual perceptions, like Bob Marley said (:grin:) "you can't change all of them all of the time, but you can change some of them some of the time". That's good enough for me.

Hal Jordan
04-16-2015, 11:13 PM
If we take money out of it completely, then we would also have to make sure the candidates kept campaigning to the internet, or some other field where everything is equal. Otherwise, the rich would just fund their own campaigns, with no loopholes to have to get around. Another option would be having the public pay for candidates campaigns, which essentially neutralizes the money aspect as far as candidates are concerned. And I agree, the current power structure may have too much inertia to correct everything smoothly.

As for individual perceptions, like Bob Marley said (:grin:) "you can't change all of them all of the time, but you can change some of them some of the time". That's good enough for me.

Well, that is part of taking it out completely. There could be a specific fund that all candidates drew equally from, but it would have to be paid by the public, with no large donors.

Definitely. I have helped others to see money as a tool, no different than any other tool.

Guerilla
04-16-2015, 11:39 PM
Well, that is part of taking it out completely. There could be a specific fund that all candidates drew equally from, but it would have to be paid by the public, with no large donors.

Definitely. I have helped others to see money as a tool, no different than any other tool.

I see. But it seems like an issue that has a lot of ins and outs. Those issues are hard to plan out. They get bogged down in bureaucracy and legislation, then loopholes get created, and no one understands them, like the tax code and ACA. Then again, I don't think we have truly attempted it yet, so it's always worth looking more into.

But writing something on paper and solidifying it, means you can change it and find loopholes, and abuse it. That's how things got this way. That's why I prefer a different philosophy or cultural change. Cultures are alive, govs are dead and just trying to reflect the culture as accurately as possible.

Peter1469
04-17-2015, 05:01 AM
But America has a broad range of people. So what's a guy to do?

I mentioned the party machine above.

Guerilla
04-17-2015, 05:17 AM
I mentioned the party machine above.

You said the idea was in a thread you posted, but I don't know which thread.

And you said it was better but still corrupt. Is that really better?

Peter1469
04-17-2015, 02:27 PM
You said the idea was in a thread you posted, but I don't know which thread.

And you said it was better but still corrupt. Is that really better?

It produced better leaders- whether you agree with them or not. Since then most presidents seem like children in comparison.