Atheism

[Mister D]

I'm actually used to having a couple atheists around. I kind of miss that even though our relations weren't usually amicable. ;) There were no less than three at The Congress who varied widely in terms of their education and intellect but they all had massive egos.

[Pendragon]

I'm an atheist.

[Pendragon]

What race do you believe Jesus was?

[Conley]

What race do you believe Jesus was?


Black. Definitely black.

[Mister D]

I'm an atheist.


How old are you?

[Mister D]

What race do you believe Jesus was?


What does it matter? Why in the world would you ask such a question?

[Pendragon]

I'm an atheist.


How old are you?


Why do you ask?

[Pendragon]

What race do you believe Jesus was?


What does it matter? Why in the world would you ask such a question?


Why do you ask so many questions?

I am trying to have a discussion.

[Pendragon]

What race do you believe Jesus was?


What does it matter? Why in the world would you ask such a question?


I would like to know your honest answer.

[Mister D]

What race do you believe Jesus was?


What does it matter? Why in the world would you ask such a question?


Why do you ask so many questions?

I am trying to have a discussion.


It's a bizarre question. Why do you ask?

[Mister D]

I'm an atheist.


How old are you?


Why do you ask?


Because if you were to tell me you're 16, for example, I couldn't take your views seriously. That's not an insult either.

[Mister D]

What race do you believe Jesus was?


What does it matter? Why in the world would you ask such a question?


I would like to know your honest answer.


As a Semite the historical Jesus of Nazareth would have been a Caucasian.

[Pendragon]

You are off by a couple of decades.

I think it's a fascinating topic.

[Pendragon]

Have you seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Jesus

[Pendragon]

It seems he was quite dark skinned for a caucasian.

Mind you, I'm not a big believer in race.

[hellraiser]

good discussion pen :)

[Mister D]

Have you seen this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Jesus


No, but this seems rather obvious:

The current dominant opinion among theologians and scientific theorists is that he was most likely a Galilean Jew and therefore a Semitic Caucasian that would have had features that resemble modern-day persons from the Levant in the Middle East.

[Mister D]

You are off by a couple of decades.

I think it's a fascinating topic.


Good!

So why in the world would you ask me a question about the race of Jesus?

[Mister D]

It seems he was quite dark skinned for a caucasian.

Mind you, I'm not a big believer in race.


How would you know what his actual complexion was? Is there a photo I don't know about? ;D

Semites are quite dark skinned for Europeans perhaps but no one said Jesus was a European.

[Pendragon]

Would you prefer we discuss something else?

The floor is yours.

[Mister D]

Would you prefer we discuss something else?

The floor is yours.


I'm just curious as to why you asked such a question. Gr4anted, there really isn't much more to discuss assuming Jesus was a Semite.

[Conley]

Would you prefer we discuss something else?

The floor is yours.


I'm just curious as to why you asked such a question. Gr4anted, there really isn't much more to discuss assuming Jesus was a Semite.


Is there any question about that? That Jesus was a Semite?

[Mister D]

Would you prefer we discuss something else?

The floor is yours.


I'm just curious as to why you asked such a question. Gr4anted, there really isn't much more to discuss assuming Jesus was a Semite.


Is there any question about that? That Jesus was a Semite?


Not that I know of.

[Pendragon]

Well I'm willing to discuss what ever you wish. That should demonstrate how agreeable I am.

[Mister D]

Well I'm willing to discuss what ever you wish. That should demonstrate how agreeable I am.


I had nothing specific in mind this evening but now that I know you're an atheist it opens things up a bit for the forum. I like religious topics so I will now post on religion when it comes to mind. :)

[Conley]

Well I'm willing to discuss what ever you wish. That should demonstrate how agreeable I am.


I had nothing specific in mind this evening but now that I know you're an atheist it opens things up a bit for the forum. I like religious topics so I will now post on religion when it comes to mind. :)


Aww...look at the friends. :-* ;D :D

[Mister D]

Well I'm willing to discuss what ever you wish. That should demonstrate how agreeable I am.


I had nothing specific in mind this evening but now that I know you're an atheist it opens things up a bit for the forum. I like religious topics so I will now post on religion when it comes to mind. :)


Aww...look at the friends. :-* ;D :D


Well, it's good to know.

[Mister D]

I'm currently reading Hans Kung's Is There a God. I guess that's why it was on my mind.

[Conley]

Well I'm willing to discuss what ever you wish. That should demonstrate how agreeable I am.


I had nothing specific in mind this evening but now that I know you're an atheist it opens things up a bit for the forum. I like religious topics so I will now post on religion when it comes to mind. :)


Aww...look at the friends. :-* ;D :D


Well, it's good to know.


Definitely. I was just messing around. No harm meant. ;)

[Pendragon]

None taken.

[Mister D]

Over the course of the next couple days I will start some religious or quasi-religious topics. We should start a separate section for religious and philosophical discussions when we get some more members. It will look silly with everything in "The Pub".

[Conley]

We've got religious debates next to a list of James Bond's hottest villains. :D

[Mister D]

We've got religious debates next to a list of James Bond's hottest villains. :D


At this point I'm just posting for the sake of posting but I would like a little more clarity later. World History, Religion and Philosophy would make a good section.

[Conley]

Good idea.

[MMC]

Agreed on the Relgion and Philosphy Section with World history. We also need a Section for Foreign Policy.....Which then won't be mixed in with all the domestic issues. Although in trying to get a site growing we should have these up as we are trying to get more to come here. More option more availability.

If they see a variety of threads we open ourselves up to more conversation and discussions. Currently the Pub is getting it's share of threads which should help some to post up easily. Pictures and Videos.....Football etc etc.

[Conley]

Agreed on the Relgion and Philosphy Section with World history. We also need a Section for Foreign Policy.....Which then won't be mixed in with all the domestic issues. Although in trying to get a site growing we should have these up as we are trying to get more to come here. More option more availability.

If they see a variety of threads we open ourselves up to more conversation and discussions. Currently the Pub is getting it's share of threads which should help some to post up easily. Pictures and Videos.....Football etc etc.


Yeah we need a separate sports section like the newspaper. And one for the ladies. >:D

[wingrider]

I visited once with a guy who said he was an athiest, when I doubted his statement he looked at me and said

" I am an athiest, I swear to God"

I just walked off shaking my head in amusement.

[Mister D]

I visited once with a guy who said he was an athiest, when I doubted his statement he looked at me and said

" I am an athiest, I swear to God"

I just walked off shaking my head in amusement.


:D Cute

[Mister D]

I'm reading a section on Nietzsche now. Very interesting.

[Pendragon]

I visited once with a guy who said he was an athiest, when I doubted his statement he looked at me and said

" I am an athiest, I swear to God"

I just walked off shaking my head in amusement.


Why do Christians feel so superior?

Is it because we are not saved perchance?

[Mister D]

I visited once with a guy who said he was an athiest, when I doubted his statement he looked at me and said

" I am an athiest, I swear to God"

I just walked off shaking my head in amusement.


Why do Christians feel so superior?

Is it because we are not saved perchance?


It's just an amusing story, Pen. I seriously doubt that LoVE feels superior to you.

[Conley]

Actually... ;) :D

[Elibe]

ive noticed that too. but then again i do believe in god.

[Captain Obvious]

I was just thinking about this today.

Fuck atheists, fuck believers. I'm fucking sick of hearing "I'm a ____". Who fucking cares? Are you that insecure that you feel the need to jam your belief (or disbelief) down everyone's throats?

Just shut the fuck up already and revel in your stance. Keep your beliefs to yourself, I don't want to fucking hear about it.

[wingrider]

I visited once with a guy who said he was an athiest, when I doubted his statement he looked at me and said

" I am an athiest, I swear to God"

I just walked off shaking my head in amusement.


Why do Christians feel so superior?

Is it because we are not saved perchance?


it was just a story pen...

I don't feel superior to you at all

accepted yes... superior no

[Elibe]

I was just thinking about this today.

Fuck atheists, fuck believers. I'm fucking sick of hearing "I'm a ____". Who fucking cares? Are you that insecure that you feel the need to jam your belief (or disbelief) down everyone's throats?

Just shut the fuck up already and revel in your stance. Keep your beliefs to yourself, I don't want to fucking hear about it.


i will pray for you

[wingrider]

here is what I don not understand about athiesm:

why do they believe that Humanity is just another form of existance that is no different than say a cockroach or a branch of simian. Humans are the only "animal" that can reason, create tools, and in general think outside the box so to speak.

How is it that they beleive in evolution when the itis readily apparent that even though all humans are the same biologically each and everyone of us is yet each of us is unique inour own peculiar way, take fingerprints for example, we all have fingerprints yet no two people are the same now there are over 6 billion people on this planet yet we are all distinct from one another in certain regards.

why is it that Athiest don't belive in God or at least a supreme designer, and this is fine if that is what they choose to believe. but the questions remains why do they spend so much time railing against something that they don't belive exists, and want everyone else to agree with their line of thought.

considering Pendragon claims to be an Athiest maybe he would like to respond to these questions.. now anyone can respond if they choose to but he is the only one so far that has stated that he is an Athiest.

[Mister D]

why is it that Athiest don't belive in God or at least a supreme designer, and this is fine if that is what they choose to believe. but the questions remains why do they spend so much time railing against something that they don't belive exists, and want everyone else to agree with their line of thought.



That is something I have commented on before. It's bizarre.

[Pendragon]

I will have more to say later, however for now I will state that many Atheists have been done great harm by organized religion. We see this same suffering on our fellow man and wish to provide solace from this abuse. Furthermore we wish to prevent the younger ones from being equally harmed. There are myriad examples of religion destroying lives, from sexual predators who are shuffled around in the Catholic churches to Fundamentalists who bleed the senior members of their congregation dry with their demands for financial reimbursements. This is not to say that all religion is bad, just to say that it should be easy to understand why so many logical thinkers are so against it.

Subsequent to that is the entire logical argument which holds that without evidence of existence, there is no reason to believe. I am a factual being and see no reason to change my nature which has served me well in all aspects of life.

[Mister D]

I will have more to say later, however for now I will state that many Atheists have been done great harm by organized religion. We see this same suffering on our fellow man and wish to provide solace from this abuse. Furthermore we wish to prevent the younger ones from being equally harmed. There are myriad examples of religion destroying lives, from sexual predators who are shuffled around in the Catholic churches to Fundamentalists who bleed the senior members of their congregation dry with their demands for financial reimbursements. This is not to say that all religion is bad, just to say that it should be easy to understand why so many logical thinkers are so against it.

Subsequent to that is the entire logical argument which holds that without evidence of existence, there is no reason to believe. I am a factual being and see no reason to change my nature which has served me well in all aspects of life.


This is a silly argument reminiscent of the rambling of that pickled Marxist, Chris Hitchens. Secondly, logical positivism is dead. It's eulogy was written before you were born. But I await the more you will say later.

[Pendragon]

That is all you have to say?

Hitchens is a genius and I am not surprised in the least that you are unable to follow his logic. He is showing tremendous fortitude in these trying days.

[Mister D]

That is all you have to say?

Hitchens is a genius and I am not surprised in the least that you are unable to follow his logic. He is showing tremendous fortitude in these trying days.


Again, I await the more you will have to say later. There isn't much to respond to. You certainly haven't even come anywhere near to making a good case against religion organized or otherwise.

Hitchens is a intelligent man. He just makes a fool of himself when he babbles on and on about his contempt for religion. Similarly, Richard Dawkins is a brilliant biologist that just can't seem to understand that he speaks with zero authority outside his field. Alas, that's the problem with modern intellectuals but I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Pendragon]

So you agree that there are ample reasons to detest religion and that we atheists are doing the world a favor by helping to save others from the lies and betrayal?

I did expect you to put up more of a fight than this.

[Mister D]

So you agree that there are ample reasons to detest religion and that we atheists are doing the world a favor by helping to save others from the lies and betrayal?

I did expect you to put up more of a fight than this.


Have I? :D Saying that there are ample reasons to detest religion is like saying that there are ample reasons to detest politics. It's inane. Religion, like politics, is an inescapable part of the human experience. That said, what lies? What betrayal? How do they impact religion and prove your case?

[Mister D]

Are you a nihilist, Pen? If not, what do you believe?

[Pendragon]

Religion is hardly an inescapable part of humanity. Certainly there was a place for it before we understood basic concepts like combustion and later, astronomy but in this day and age science is perfectly capable of explaining these phenomenae.

Why do you believe your religion is the correct one? Why not Norse gods? Or an eight tentacled Cthulu? You only believe what you do because you were told to, just like your ancestors and those who came before them.

What do you believe and why?

[Mister D]

Religion is hardly an inescapable part of humanity. Certainly there was a place for it before we understood basic concepts like combustion and later, astronomy but in this day and age science is perfectly capable of explaining these phenomenae.

Why do you believe your religion is the correct one? Why not Norse gods? Or an eight tentacled Cthulu? You only believe what you do because you were told to, just like your ancestors and those who came before them.

What do you believe and why?


You'd have a point if the primary role of religion was to explain the natural world. ::)

No no no, Pen. I asked you what you believe. Sucks when you are pulled to the front of the class, huh? You can't snicker in the back anymore. ;D What do you believe Mr. Factual Person? I'd be more than happy to explain what I believe but I'd like to hear what you believe first.

[Pendragon]

Religion is hardly an inescapable part of humanity. Certainly there was a place for it before we understood basic concepts like combustion and later, astronomy but in this day and age science is perfectly capable of explaining these phenomenae.

Why do you believe your religion is the correct one? Why not Norse gods? Or an eight tentacled Cthulu? You only believe what you do because you were told to, just like your ancestors and those who came before them.

What do you believe and why?


You'd have a point if the primary role of religion was to explain the natural world. ::)

No no no, Pen. I asked you what you believe. Sucks when you are pulled to the front of the class, huh? You can't snicker in the back anymore. ;D What do you believe Mr. Factual Person? I'd be more than happy to explain what I believe but I'd like to hear what you believe first.


I have already told you, I am a man of science, not of faith.

If there is no evidence to support a premise than I shall not believe it.

[Mister D]

Religion is hardly an inescapable part of humanity. Certainly there was a place for it before we understood basic concepts like combustion and later, astronomy but in this day and age science is perfectly capable of explaining these phenomenae.

Why do you believe your religion is the correct one? Why not Norse gods? Or an eight tentacled Cthulu? You only believe what you do because you were told to, just like your ancestors and those who came before them.

What do you believe and why?


You'd have a point if the primary role of religion was to explain the natural world. ::)

No no no, Pen. I asked you what you believe. Sucks when you are pulled to the front of the class, huh? You can't snicker in the back anymore. ;D What do you believe Mr. Factual Person? I'd be more than happy to explain what I believe but I'd like to hear what you believe first.


I have already told you, I am a man of science, not of faith.

If there is no evidence to support a premise than I shall not believe it.


Logical positivism is dead, Pen.

So you are a nihilist? OK. Understood. Why do you think nihilism is more reasonable than faith and trust in reality?

[Pendragon]

I am far more grounded in reality than you.

Why won't you answer any of my questions? Are you that afraid to have a debate? Honestly it should not be difficult for you to explain your faith.

For future reference, simply exclaiming that something is dead does not make it so.

Catholicism is dead.

Do you see how pointless that is?

Please, let us have a meaningful debate.

[Mister D]

I am far more grounded in reality than you.

Why won't you answer any of my questions? Are you that afraid to have a debate? Honestly it should not be difficult for you to explain your faith.

For future reference, simply exclaiming that something is dead does not make it so.

Catholicism is dead.

Do you see how pointless that is?

Please, let us have a meaningful debate.


Most philosophers consider logical positivism to be, as John Passmore expressed it, "dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes." [17] By the late 1970s, its ideas were so generally recognized to be seriously defective that one of its own main proponents, A. J. Ayer, could say in a interview: "I suppose the most important [defect]...was that nearly all of it was false."[17] It retains an important place in the history of Analytic philosophy as the antecedent of philosophies which continue now, such as Constructive empiricism, Positivism and Postpositivism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism

Except for the billion plus Catholics so, yes, I do see how pointless that statemenmt was. :-\ :D

I didn't think you had the guts, Pen. Frankly, your atheism is unserious and unthoughtful. When you figure oyut whether or not you are a nihilist let me know. Only when you have taken a position may the debate proceed.

[Pendragon]

I have never once stated I was a logicial positivist.

Not a single solitary time!

[Mister D]

I have never once stated I was a logicial positivist.

Not a single solitary time!


Of course you haven't! You didn't even know what it meant!

Now we know that logical positivism, as a theory of knowledge, is hogwash so I'm curious to know what exactly you mean by a "reason" to believe in something. What do you mean?

[Pendragon]

Evidence, my dear lad. Evidence.

Not a two thousand year old book filled with absurd fables, but rather scientifically valid findings.

Now that I've answered several of your questions, perhaps you would fancy answering one of mine own?

[Mister D]

Evidence, my dear lad. Evidence.

Not a two thousand year old book filled with absurd fables, but rather scientifically valid findings.

Now that I've answered several of your questions, perhaps you would fancy answering one of mine own?


If by "evidence" you mean empirical observation then you are a logical positivist but that places you in a bind. Logical positivism is dead as a theory of knowledge. Are you throwing your lot in with the Confederacy too? ;D What specifically do you mean by "evidence". Is there any meaning at all in our lives? Does the world have any meaning at all? Is anything of real value? Is there good and evil? We must establish the terms before our debate can proceed. You must take a position, Pen. Those are rhetorical questions because regardless of your answer no "evidence" could establish the existence of such. Now we come back to the question of your nihilism. What is your answer? Or have you never actually thought about this before, my dear lad? ;)

[Pendragon]

Why do you continue avoiding my questions?

You have no explanation nor justification for your beliefs and in fact you will not even state what you believe in.

I know you are capable of a little more than this, since at least with my other thread you resorted to straw men and red herrings.

Here you appear to be fully at a loss.

Are you familiar with the expression, "Give a little, get a little"?

Perhaps you should answer at least a question or two.

[Mister D]

Why do you continue avoiding my questions?

You have no explanation nor justification for your beliefs and in fact you will not even state what you believe in.

I know you are capable of a little more than this, since at least with my other thread you resorted to straw men and red herrings.

Here you appear to be fully at a loss.

Are you familiar with the expression, "Give a little, get a little"?

Perhaps you should answer at least a question or two.


We can begin this debate when you are ready, Pen. Take your time.

[Elibe]

i believe god exists but i cant prove it. no one can. some things you just have to take on faith. know what i mean?

[Mister D]

i believe god exists but i cant prove it. no one can. some things you just have to take on faith. know what i mean?


Agreed. I would only add that that's true of many things in life.

[MMC]

Sunday Night Football on NBC (Faith Hill) Tribute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GZ0IjQm7oE#ws)

Perk.....take on a little Faith. Ubetcha! ;) ;D

[Conley]

Faith looked a little worn out there :D

[MMC]

Faith looked a little worn out there :D


Thank you.....I have that affect on women. Must be when I roll my tongue across the floor towards them. ;) :P

[wingrider]

I will have more to say later, however for now I will state that many Atheists have been done great harm by organized religion. We see this same suffering on our fellow man and wish to provide solace from this abuse. Furthermore we wish to prevent the younger ones from being equally harmed. There are myriad examples of religion destroying lives, from sexual predators who are shuffled around in the Catholic churches to Fundamentalists who bleed the senior members of their congregation dry with their demands for financial reimbursements. This is not to say that all religion is bad, just to say that it should be easy to understand why so many logical thinkers are so against it.

Subsequent to that is the entire logical argument which holds that without evidence of existence, there is no reason to believe. I am a factual being and see no reason to change my nature which has served me well in all aspects of life.


you do realize that the most murders in the history of the 19th century were perpretrated by athiests .

I give you

Stalin more than 20 million
mao more than 40 million

that is more people in just those two athiest than the " religous folk" have killed in 3500 years. so your arguement that religion is responsible for all the ills of the world is specuous at best, and an out and out lie at its worst.

[Conley]

Hitler may have been an atheist as well:

"Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and a Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. The degree to which he participated in and was influenced by the racist occultism, paganism and esotericism which was popular in late 19th, early 20th century Germany is also a matter of dispute."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

[wingrider]

Hitler may have been an atheist as well:

"Adolf Hitler's religious views are a matter of some dispute. While raised by a skeptic father and a Catholic mother, after childhood, he ceased to participate in the Sacraments completely. He sometimes made public statements which seemed to affirm religion (which suited his political purposes) and prior to 1940 had promoted a "positive Christianity", purged of Judaism and instilled with Nazi philosophy, but in private was hostile to Christianity and had a plan to destroy it after the war. The degree to which he participated in and was influenced by the racist occultism, paganism and esotericism which was popular in late 19th, early 20th century Germany is also a matter of dispute."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views


yes you are correct on that note

[Mister D]

I disagree LoVE. It was the 20th century. Not the 19th. ;)

Hitler's religious views are somewhat obscure but it's clear that religion had nothing to do with his worldview. I also agree that the Nazis, regardless of Hitler's public attitude to Christianity, eyed the Catholic and Protestant churches with suspicion and we all know what that would ultimately mean.

[Conley]

It was news to me that he wanted to wipe out Christianity. I don't think he was too fond of Judaism either (just a hunch ;)). So I'm thinking he wasn't a believer, but I guess it is debatable.

[Mister D]

It was news to me that he wanted to wipe out Christianity. I don't think he was too fond of Judaism either (just a hunch ;)). So I'm thinking he wasn't a believer, but I guess it is debatable.


A believing Christian? You'd be hard pressed to make such a case, IMO, and it would be even harder to make a case that Christianity had anything to do with his Darwinistic worldview.

[wingrider]

I disagree LoVE. It was the 20th century. Not the 19th. ;)

Hitler's religious views are somewhat obscure but it's clear that religion had nothing to do with his worldview. I also agree that the Nazis, regardless of Hitler's public attitude to Christianity, eyed the Catholic and Protestant churches with suspicion and we all know what that would ultimately mean.


yeah you are right I was thinking of 1900 to 2000 which would be the 20th century not the 19th my bad

[Conley]

I knew what you meant LoVE ;)

[MMC]

Hitler was well aware of the Pope and the Catholic Church and what they could do. We are taking then a religious war and that.....Hitler did not want to engage in.

[Elibe]

I will have more to say later, however for now I will state that many Atheists have been done great harm by organized religion. We see this same suffering on our fellow man and wish to provide solace from this abuse. Furthermore we wish to prevent the younger ones from being equally harmed. There are myriad examples of religion destroying lives, from sexual predators who are shuffled around in the Catholic churches to Fundamentalists who bleed the senior members of their congregation dry with their demands for financial reimbursements. This is not to say that all religion is bad, just to say that it should be easy to understand why so many logical thinkers are so against it.

Subsequent to that is the entire logical argument which holds that without evidence of existence, there is no reason to believe. I am a factual being and see no reason to change my nature which has served me well in all aspects of life.


you do realize that the most murders in the history of the 19th century were perpretrated by athiests .

I give you

Stalin more than 20 million
mao more than 40 million

that is more people in just those two athiest than the " religous folk" have killed in 3500 years. so your arguement that religion is responsible for all the ills of the world is specuous at best, and an out and out lie at its worst.


well those two you mention and hitler also didnt do all the killing themselves, they had other people carry it out for them. no doubt some of those soldiers were christian even though the leaders weren't. they may have been hiding it from the higher ups. point is its pointless to try to decide who has killed more people atheists or christians. there are good folks and bad on both sides.

[Mister D]

I will have more to say later, however for now I will state that many Atheists have been done great harm by organized religion. We see this same suffering on our fellow man and wish to provide solace from this abuse. Furthermore we wish to prevent the younger ones from being equally harmed. There are myriad examples of religion destroying lives, from sexual predators who are shuffled around in the Catholic churches to Fundamentalists who bleed the senior members of their congregation dry with their demands for financial reimbursements. This is not to say that all religion is bad, just to say that it should be easy to understand why so many logical thinkers are so against it.

Subsequent to that is the entire logical argument which holds that without evidence of existence, there is no reason to believe. I am a factual being and see no reason to change my nature which has served me well in all aspects of life.


you do realize that the most murders in the history of the 19th century were perpretrated by athiests .

I give you

Stalin more than 20 million
mao more than 40 million

that is more people in just those two athiest than the " religous folk" have killed in 3500 years. so your arguement that religion is responsible for all the ills of the world is specuous at best, and an out and out lie at its worst.


well those two you mention and hitler also didnt do all the killing themselves, they had other people carry it out for them. no doubt some of those soldiers were christian even though the leaders weren't. they may have been hiding it from the higher ups. point is its pointless to try to decide who has killed more people atheists or christians. there are good folks and bad on both sides.


Most of those soldiers (save perhaps those actually brought up under the regimes' control) were nominally Christian. So what? They weren't killing in the name of Christ but in the name of a political ideology be it Nazism, communism or whatever. In any case, it is rather pointless which makes me wonder why atheists keep bringing it up.

[Elibe]

ultimately it is the killer that bears the responsibility .. neither religion or lack of it needs to be present for man to hurt man

[MMC]

ultimately it is the killer that bears the responsibility .. neither religion or lack of it needs to be present for man to hurt man


You are correct Elibe.....there is nothing else in this World that is more Wicked and Cruel as a man. There is no other creature that is Evil.

[Conley]

ultimately it is the killer that bears the responsibility .. neither religion or lack of it needs to be present for man to hurt man


That is true but certain in the context of war soldiers and influenced by their leaders who may well be acting in accordance with their beliefs.

[Mister D]

ultimately it is the killer that bears the responsibility .. neither religion or lack of it needs to be present for man to hurt man


is it? Doesn't Adolf Eichmann, for example, bear as much responsibility as those who did the actual killing? Wasn't the whole regime guilty? I agree that human cruelty need not be inspired by either religion or the lack thereof but I also think that religion does provide boundaries. The brutality abnd slaughter of the 20th century was due not to technology but to ideas.

[Conley]

There's definitely guilt there, from the planning to the carrying out of the orders. No one along that chain is innocent IMO.

[Mister D]

There's definitely guilt there, from the planning to the carrying out of the orders. No one along that chain is innocent IMO.


Agreed.

[Elibe]

ultimately it is the killer that bears the responsibility .. neither religion or lack of it needs to be present for man to hurt man


is it? Doesn't Adolf Eichmann, for example, bear as much responsibility as those who did the actual killing? Wasn't the whole regime guilty? I agree that human cruelty need not be inspired by either religion or the lack thereof but I also think that religion does provide boundaries. The brutality abnd slaughter of the 20th century was due not to technology but to ideas.


i would include him in my statement

that whole system was designed for killing