'Accountant of Auschwitz' set to Stand Trial

[exotix]

Today


'Accountant of Auschwitz' Oskar Groening Set to Stand Trial

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bookkeeper-auschwitz-oskar-groening-set-stand-trial-n344796

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html

MAINZ, Germany — Dozens of Holocaust survivors and their relatives from around the world are expected to converge on a German courtroom Tuesday as the so-called "accountant of Auschwitz" is due to go on trial.

Former concentration camp bookkeeper and guard Oskar Groening, 93, is accused of being an accessory to the murder of at least 300,000 Jews (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/93-year-old-auschwitz-guard-oskar-groening-stand-trial-300-n269141).

Groening's trial comes 70 years after the liberation of Adolf Hitler's concentration camps.

He is accused of working as a guard at the Auschwitz death camp between May and June 1944, when some 425,000 Jews from Hungary were brought there and at least 300,000 almost immediately gassed to death.

German prosecutors allege that Groening was responsible for dealing with the belongings and money stolen from camp victims, which is why he has often been referred to as "the accountant of Auschwitz" in the German media.



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[Captain Obvious]

Why bother at this point.

[exotix]

why bother at this point.

As fugitives age, the case is likely to be one of germany's last nazi trials.

Authorities say it is intended to be "an important signal for the last remaining survivors of the holocaust."

[Chloe]

Why bother at this point.

In my opinion because people shouldn't be able to get away with committing a crime without some sort of punishment regardless of their age.

[The Xl]

If he was instrumental in any serious death or suffering, he should be charged and convicted. There should be no statute of limitations on this sort of thing

[Mister D]

In my opinion because people shouldn't be able to get away with committing a crime without some sort of punishment regardless of their age.

That's true but the fact is that there were literally tens of thousands of accomplices. It's largely symbolic.

[The Xl]

In my opinion because people shouldn't be able to get away with committing a crime without some sort of punishment regardless of their age.
Preach, sistah

[Chloe]

That's true but the fact is that there were literally tens of thousands of accomplices. It's largely symbolic.

Maybe, but symbolism or not the crimes he helped perpetrate were very real and are still felt today which makes it still very real in my opinion.

[Captain Obvious]

In my opinion because people shouldn't be able to get away with committing a crime without some sort of punishment regardless of their age.

I guess I didn't mean it in that respect, but in the respect of "how did we basically let him/them get away with it this long before finding and bringing them to justice"?

At this point there is no active search for holocaust justice, if we accidentally trip over it, fine.

[The Xl]

That's true but the fact is that there were literally tens of thousands of accomplices. It's largely symbolic.

It should depend on his level of involvement. He was some grunt following orders against his moral compass in fear of his life, then that is much different than being a proactive and aggressive person of high standing

[Mister D]

Maybe, but symbolism or not the crimes he helped perpetrate were very real and are still felt today which makes it still very real in my opinion.

Oh, no doubt it's real but there will be no earthly justice for such an enormous crime. I know that's hard to accept but that's the reality.

[Chloe]

I guess I didn't mean it in that respect, but in the respect of "how did we basically let him/them get away with it this long before finding and bringing them to justice"?

At this point there is no active search for holocaust justice, if we accidentally trip over it, fine.

Many of them changed their names or simply folded into the mix long before modern technology so I can easily see how it would make it tough to find them. I liked the part of the article where the former Nazi pretty much called out holocaust deniers

[Mister D]

It should depend on his level of involvement. He was some grunt following orders against his moral compass in fear of his life, then that is much different than being a proactive and aggressive person of high standing

No one was in fear of his life but, like I said, he a cog in a vast machine of death.

[The Xl]

No one was in fear of his life but, like I said, he a cog in a vast machine of death.

Be that as it may, it doesn't excuse his crimes. I don't mind this prosecution

[Mister D]

Be that as it may, it doesn't excuse his crimes. I don't mind this prosecution

I don't midn it either. I'm just saying there isn't a punishment that could ever fit the crime.

[Polecat]

Once you made the mistake of joining the SS in the first place you pretty much had no say in where or what you would be doing. The alternative for this guy back then would have been to take a bullet for his objection to following orders. That can be a tough call when it is yours to make.
Chloe you should have a young and tender heart as long as you can hold on to it. There will be plenty of time later for seeking vengeance.

[Bob]

In my opinion because people shouldn't be able to get away with committing a crime without some sort of punishment regardless of their age.


He kept track of belongings. Real big catch. LOL

[Bob]

The former guard has previously spoken at trials after the war of the operations of the gas chambers and crematoria, but has denied any involvement.In 1948, a tribunal cleared him of war crimes and he began working as the manager of a glass factory.Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XskGeXYD Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

[Chloe]

He kept track of belongings. Real big catch. LOL

He enabled the financing of mass murder and contributed to the operation of a death camp. Laugh all you want but facts are stubborn things.

[Bob]

He enabled the financing of mass murder and contributed to the operation of a death camp. Laugh all you want but facts are stubborn things.

He has been found innocent by a tribunal. I guess in Germany they can keep trying you over and over all year long.

So, to me he is still innocent.

[Chloe]

He has been found innocent by a tribunal. I guess in Germany they can keep trying you over and over all year long.

So, to me he is still innocent.

Innocent huh? Worked at a nazi death camp but he's innocent because a tribunal said so in 1948 when prosecuting low level nazis wasn't really a priority during the reconstruction of Europe. He was given a gift for decades but now he's going to have to answer for his participation in mass murder. Poor him.

[Bob]

Innocent huh? Worked at a nazi death camp but he's innocent because a tribunal said so in 1948 when prosecuting low level nazis wasn't really a priority during the reconstruction of Europe. He was given a gift for decades but now he's going to have to answer for his participation in mass murder. Poor him.

Yep, in 1948, the evidence was extremely fresh. This is 2015. Some politician is trying to make points.

The tribunal had plenty of living witnesses. The story is this guy has testified to prosecute other Nazis.

If you call this justice, pffffft.

[Chloe]

Yep, in 1948, the evidence was extremely fresh. This is 2015. Some politician is trying to make points.

The tribunal had plenty of living witnesses. The story is this guy has testified to prosecute other Nazis.

If you call this justice, pffffft.

Testifying against other nazis doesn't make him a better nazi. By his own words he knows exactly what he did, what he helped support, and what happened in the camps. His actions made mass murder more financially beneficial, he's a criminal, but keep defending the nazi Bob, it's a great color on you.

[Bob]

Testifying against other nazis doesn't make him a better nazi. By his own words he knows exactly what he did, what he helped support, and what happened in the camps. His actions made mass murder more financially beneficial, he's a criminal, but keep defending the nazi Bob, it's a great color on you.

He knows he was taking care of clothing and money and other valuables. Why are you so bitter that i believe he got justice in 1948 when the story was still fresh enough for courts of law? They found him not guilty so don't blame me.

[Chloe]

He knows he was taking care of clothing and money and other valuables. Why are you so bitter that i believe he got justice in 1948 when the story was still fresh enough for courts of law? They found him not guilty so don't blame me.

Oh shuuuuuuttttuuuppppp. He helped make mass murder more financially efficient and he knew exactly what he was a part of. He did not receive justice in 1948, he received a tainted and lazy gift. Do you always agree and support a verdict or just when it involves a nazi that worked in a death camp? What happened in 48 was a miscarriage of justice and you're ok with it.

[Chloe]

Simple question: is there such a thing as an innocent SS officer that helped with operation of a nazi death camp????


blaahhhhh

[Bob]

Oh shuuuuuuttttuuuppppp. He helped make mass murder more financially efficient and he knew exactly what he was a part of. He did not receive justice in 1948, he received a tainted and lazy gift. Do you always agree and support a verdict or just when it involves a nazi that worked in a death camp? What happened in 48 was a miscarriage of justice and you're ok with it.


Clearly you have never been to Germany. Clearly you see Nazis under beds.

The fact is what he was involved in was clothing, etc. He has not been accused of killing anybody.

I thought Germany got over the national guilt.

[Bob]

Simple question: is there such a thing as an innocent SS officer that helped with operation of a nazi death camp????


blaahhhhh

He was no officer. HE was a Sgt. I checked this out before posting. Try it.

[Chloe]

Clearly you have never been to Germany. Clearly you see Nazis under beds.

The fact is what he was involved in was clothing, etc. He has not been accused of killing anybody.

I thought Germany got over the national guilt.

And their money, jewelry and other personal items knowing full well it was theft and that the owners were going to die, but no he is innocent. Gag me. You're ignorant and embarrassing yourself.

[Redrose]

Take away his prostate meds and force him to listen to Amy Weinhouse music 24/7. That's punishment at his age.

[Chloe]

He was no officer. HE was a Sgt. I checked this out before posting. Try it.

He was a member of the SS working at auschwitz. He is not innocent. You're being a fool and showing your true colors

[Bob]

Oh shuuuuuuttttuuuppppp. He helped make mass murder more financially efficient and he knew exactly what he was a part of. He did not receive justice in 1948, he received a tainted and lazy gift. Do you always agree and support a verdict or just when it involves a nazi that worked in a death camp? What happened in 48 was a miscarriage of justice and you're ok with it.


Groening denies murder but he stands accused of being part of a criminal conspiracy at a time when 300,000 Jews were gassed at the camp.
He said he was charged with sorting the possessions and money of those about to die and making sure it got sent back to his SS superiors in Germany.
Some 30 Auschwitz guards, including three women, were tracked down in recent years but charges against most of them have been dropped because of age, infirmity and lack of evidence.
One of those judged to be mentally unfit to stand trial was Hans Lipschis, 94, who was said to have herded men, women and children into the gas chambers of the camp in Nazi occupied southern Poland.
Another off the hook is Gisela S., a 90-year-old widow who now lives in an OAP home in northern Germany.

[Bob]

He was a member of the SS working at auschwitz. He is not innocent. You're being a fool and showing your true colors

He was found innocent in 1948.

Gee, get over it.

[Peter1469]

Clearly you have never been to Germany. Clearly you see Nazis under beds.

The fact is what he was involved in was clothing, etc. He has not been accused of killing anybody.

I thought Germany got over the national guilt.

No they have not. And I have been to Germany.

[Peter1469]

He was no officer. HE was a Sgt. I checked this out before posting. Try it.

Chloe doesn't know the difference between an officer and a SGT. Or a company commander's driver and an airborne infantry fire team leader. :wink:

[PolWatch]

He was not charged in 1948...he could not have been found innocent. ''This guilt will never leave me. I can only plead for forgiveness and pray for atonement,' he said

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XtOOWWT6
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

[Bob]

No they have not. And I have been to Germany.

It's a shame then. I found out Demanjuk died in jail and he was once an American Citizen but got tossed to the wolves by Obama prior to 2011.

[Common]

This is a simple decision for me, If hes found guilty give him the sentence that will make him most miserable before he checks out. Sounds to me like prison would be worse at this point till he drops dead than death sentence.

Shame these murderous mutts go to live so long after their crime. Men who worked death camps have no conscience.

[Bob]

Chloe doesn't know the difference between an officer and a SGT. Or a company commander's driver and an airborne infantry fire team leader. :wink:

I certainly do. LOL You forgot to mention company clerk. Also a clerk at an army airfield that handled the radio and talked to pilots before take off and prior to landing. Fun ...

I was casually chatting with some pilot that leaned into the door in a way I could not see his rank.

We chatted like he was one of the pilots and we were always chatting like we were all the same rank, and suddenly this guy stands up fully and he was a general. I about crapped my pants. He offered to send me to OCS and return to work for him since he commanded Army Engineers. LOL Come to think of it, he is the only General I chatted with in the Army.

I never met my Mom's cousin but he was a general based at NY City. He managed to spring me from Ft. Dix Nj on a pass to visit Mom and my brother.

[Bob]

This is a simple decision for me, If hes found guilty give him the sentence that will make him most miserable before he checks out. Sounds to me like prison would be worse at this point till he drops dead than death sentence.

Shame these murderous mutts go to live so long after their crime. Men who worked death camps have no conscience.

This guy handled property. Not sure if he will be convicted. HE was found innocent in 1948 when all evidence was then very fresh.

[Common]

This guy handled property. Not sure if he will be convicted. HE was found innocent in 1948 when all evidence was then very fresh.

He was an accountant and a Guard, wait and see the results.

[Bob]

He was not charged in 1948...he could not have been found innocent. ''This guilt will never leave me. I can only plead for forgiveness and pray for atonement,' he said

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XtOOWWT6
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

There is more than that on the man. As I stated, he was found innocent at a Tribunal in 1948.

The former guard has previously spoken at trials after the war of the operations of the gas chambers and crematoria, but has denied any involvement.
In 1948, a tribunal cleared him of war crimes and he began working as the manager of a glass factory.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XtcP6jWL
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[Mister D]

This took a turn for the worse.

[PolWatch]

he needs to be tried...I'm an expert on the SS...I toured the Marshall Flight Center & saw Werner Von Braun's office.

[Mister D]

he needs to be tried...I'm an expert on the SS...I toured the Marshall Flight Center & saw Werner Von Braun's office.

You actually raise a good point. Our government looked the other way in many cases although Braun wasn't a criminal.

[Bob]

He was an accountant and a Guard, wait and see the results.

I realize he is being blamed as if the program was his invention, but he was a cog, not the wheel.

[PolWatch]

You actually raise a good point. Our government looked the other way in many cases although Braun wasn't a criminal.

so much for my attempt at snark....:rollseyes:

[Bob]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ww2-nazi-ss-guard-faces-5181078


Groening denies murder but he stands accused of being part of a criminal conspiracy at a time when 300,000 Jews were gassed at the camp.
He said he was charged with sorting the possessions and money of those about to die and making sure it got sent back to his SS superiors in Germany.
Some 30 Auschwitz guards, including three women, were tracked down in recent years but charges against most of them have been dropped because of age, infirmity and lack of evidence.
One of those judged to be mentally unfit to stand trial was Hans Lipschis, 94, who was said to have herded men, women and children into the gas chambers of the camp in Nazi occupied southern Poland.
Another off the hook is Gisela S., a 90-year-old widow who now lives in an OAP home in northern Germany.

[Polecat]

Was he SS? I knew he was a card carrying Nazi. Didn't know he was SS too.

[Peter1469]

It's a shame then. I found out Demanjuk died in jail and he was once an American Citizen but got tossed to the wolves by Obama prior to 2011.

I was in Dresden several years ago. They left a block in their old town bombed out. They had signs up blaming the Americans for the bombed out Old Town. I laughed and said well if you weren't fucking with the Jews we wouldn't have bombed the place. The locals weren't amused. I added that those bombs were one of the best investments in history. We spent a small amount of money, and the results still stand to this day.

They didn't like that either.

[Mister D]

I was in Dresden several years ago. They left a block in their old town bombed out. They had signs up blaming the Americans for the bombed out Old Town. I laughed and said well if you weren't $#@!ing with the Jews we wouldn't have bombed the place. The locals weren't amused. I added that those bombs were one of the best investments in history. We spent a small amount of money, and the results still stand to this day.

They didn't like that either.

You don't seriously believe we went to war to help the Jews, do you? :smiley:

[Peter1469]

You don't seriously believe we went to war to help the Jews, do you? :smiley:

No I was just screwing with the locals. And the ex-wife is Jewish, so I had to play that up.

[Bob]

This is a simple decision for me, If hes found guilty give him the sentence that will make him most miserable before he checks out. Sounds to me like prison would be worse at this point till he drops dead than death sentence.

Shame these murderous mutts go to live so long after their crime. Men who worked death camps have no conscience.

You are not the least bit interested in the actual evidence are you?

Why put him on trial since you found him guilty as did Chloe

[Common]

You are not the least bit interested in the actual evidence are you?

Why put him on trial since you found him guilty as did @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)

Bob YOU dont decide whether theres a trial or not, your opinion of what happened in 1948 doesnt count.
The only thing that counts in the German Courts who have obviously indicted him. Might be you that have the facts wrong.

[Bob]

I was in Dresden several years ago. They left a block in their old town bombed out. They had signs up blaming the Americans for the bombed out Old Town. I laughed and said well if you weren't fucking with the Jews we wouldn't have bombed the place. The locals weren't amused. I added that those bombs were one of the best investments in history. We spent a small amount of money, and the results still stand to this day.

They didn't like that either.

I doubt they heard Americans tell them that in the past. Most Americans don't know what happened to the war rubble. When I was in Germany, I was told by Germans that those hllly parks are the rubble.

In Berlin, a famous Catholic church was left standing to illustrate the terrible things war does. I stayed at a hotel a bit over a block from the church.

11225

[Chloe]

You are not the least bit interested in the actual evidence are you?

Why put him on trial since you found him guilty as did @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)

He was a SS soldier at auschwitz. The guilt is implied.

[Bob]

Bob YOU dont decide whether theres a trial or not, your opinion of what happened in 1948 doesnt count.
The only thing that counts in the German Courts who have obviously indicted him. Might be you that have the facts wrong.

He was tried in 1948. I got my report from a paper printed in the UK
By the way, you don't get to decide either.

[Bob]

He was a SS soldier at auschwitz. The guilt is implied.

They had him in court in 1948. If he was guilty, he would easily have been convicted in 1948. Again, why don't you get that the evidence then was fresh. Who will testify against him now? This old man is 93.

[Bob]

Was he SS? I knew he was a card carrying Nazi. Didn't know he was SS too.

His photo shows he was SS. Did you notice the two silver lightning bars and his hat has the skull?

The SS dressed super sharp.

[Chloe]

They had him in court in 1948. If he was guilty, he would easily have been convicted in 1948. Again, why don't you get that the evidence then was fresh. Who will testify against him now? This old man is 93.

i don't care how old he is

[Chloe]

His photo shows he was SS. Did you notice the two silver lightning bars and his hat has the skull?

The SS dressed super sharp.

And killed and justified the killing of millions of people, but that only mattered when it was fresh right, oh and they dressed sharp. Good guys

[Peter1469]

He was a SS soldier at auschwitz. The guilt is implied.

If he was the bean counter (accountant) there should be lots of documentary evidence.

[PolWatch]

I wouldn't care if he is 102...if they have found evidence...charge him. If he's guilty, treat him with all the compassion he treated the Jews he counted on their way to death. If he dies before they can sentence him...give him a funeral like the Jews received.

[Mister D]

If he was the bean counter (accountant) there should be lots of documentary evidence.

It was a nickname from what I gather.

[Bob]

And killed and justified the killing of millions of people, but that only mattered when it was fresh right, oh and they dressed sharp. Good guys

Why do you think they were good guys?

[Chloe]

Why do you think they were good guys?

There's something wrong with you

[Bob]

There's something wrong with you

It was you saying they were good guys. I have not ever at any time called the SS good guys.

[Chloe]

It was you saying they were good guys. I have not ever at any time called the SS good guys.

Ugh Bob it's called sarcasm. Why on earth would I, a Jewish girl and someone that's been critical of this nazi this entire thread, call a SS guard a good guy? Stop acting purposefully stupid please.

[del]

Ugh Bob it's called sarcasm. Why on earth would I, a Jewish girl and someone that's been critical of this nazi this entire thread, call a SS guard a good guy? Stop acting purposefully stupid please.

he's not acting

[Bob]

Ugh Bob it's called sarcasm. Why on earth would I, a Jewish girl and someone that's been critical of this nazi this entire thread, call a SS guard a good guy? Stop acting purposefully stupid please.

Good for you.

My criticism of the man is different.

To tell you why ... first as a native German, he had to serve. As to the SS, when the unit was formed it was not to murder Jews.

He had a job. He did the job. He feels super bad over the experience.

But you want a 93 year treated as if he himself killed?

Here is sarcasm. :rollseyes:

[Mini Me]

Simple question: is there such a thing as an innocent SS officer that helped with operation of a nazi death camp????


blaahhhhh

To me, the ones who are really guilty are the traitors who aided and funded Hitler's war machine, rich American Industrialists and bankers like Prescott Bush, Ford, and the Dupont chemical family, the Harimans and Rethuglican isolationists who refused to help England during her time of need. Then there was the pro Nazi conspirators who brought Nazis to America after the war, during Operation Paperclip, and the Vatican's ratline help getting Nazi war criminals safe entry into S. America!Study history, and you will be shocked!

[Common]

Americans that are shocked and appalled at videos of muslims cutting off helpless peoples heads.
Need to think about the pure evil of the mindset of men who could push defenseless people into a gas chamber with thier ownCHILDREN and just annihilate them The evil of men who could use other humans for experiments.

[Chloe]

Good for you.

My criticism of the man is different.

To tell you why ... first as a native German, he had to serve. As to the SS, when the unit was formed it was not to murder Jews.

He had a job. He did the job. He feels super bad over the experience.

But you want a 93 year treated as if he himself killed?

Here is sarcasm. :rollseyes:

People made choices.

First, there were plenty of Germans that chose not to participate in the Nazi regime or their war of aggression, sure they may have been punished for it or they had to flee but they did what they believed was right.

Second, the SS were fanatical Nazis with a bloody history prior to the death camps. To become a member of the SS you had to be Aryan, you had to be loyal to Hitler, you had to hate the Jews. To think that the SS was some social club or special branch of the military like the green berets or something like that and nothing more is just complete nonsense and lacking any sort of knowledge of history.

Third, he felt "super bad", are you kidding me? What is he, 9 years old?

and fourth, I want him treated as any criminal that participated in the efficiency of a genocide to should be treated. He was a member of the SS working at Auschwitz. He knew exactly what he was doing as a guard at a death camp, he knew exactly what went on there as a guard at a death camp, he did not just gather Jews clothes like some laundry guy and then wear blinders the rest of the time, no, he systematically organized and efficiently handled the stolen valuables of Jews being sent to the certain deaths after the arrived at the death camp he worked at, and he knew all of that and did nothing accept help the machine keep killing. He is accessory to murder. FACT. and he should spend the rest of his short life in jail. He is getting off easy compared to many others.

I don't know if it's because you're old and so you empathize with this guy because he is old but short of that every word you put out there defending this guy makes you seem more and more like some sort of nazi sympathizer than anything else. You are making excuse after excuse after excuse for a radical Nazi (you had to be to be in the SS) that helped make genocide financially possible while turning a blind eye to that genocide. He feels bad now, why's that, oh because he is having to answer for his crimes instead of being the guy that puts his fellow nazis in jail....crocodile tears. You are defending a man that was an accessory to the murder of hundred of thousands of innocent people. Put aside petty differences between the two of us and just let that absorb.

[Chloe]

Americans that are shocked and appalled at videos of muslims cutting off helpless peoples heads.
Need to think about the pure evil of the mindset of men who could push defenseless people into a gas chamber with thier ownCHILDREN and just annihilate them The evil of men who could use other humans for experiments.

and to think that this guy wasn't perfectly fine with all of that is completely naive in my opinion. A SS accountant/soldier doesn't get sent to Auschwitz to help lead the efficient theft of Jewish property taken from those Jews in that very place before being sent to their death at that very place instead of going to the front line in Russia or Belgium or Africa as a common german soldier if he is disenchanted with Nazi beliefs or just wants to fight the war.

[Chloe]

To me, the ones who are really guilty are the traitors who aided and funded Hitler's war machine, rich American Industrialists and bankers like Prescott Bush, Ford, and the Dupont chemical family, the Harimans and Rethuglican isolationists who refused to help England during her time of need. Then there was the pro Nazi conspirators who brought Nazis to America after the war, during Operation Paperclip, and the Vatican's ratline help getting Nazi war criminals safe entry into S. America!Study history, and you will be shocked!



Thanks. I actually know about some of that and I would agree they many of them have blood on their hands.

[Common]

and to think that this guy wasn't perfectly fine with all of that is completely naive in my opinion. A SS accountant/soldier doesn't get sent to Auschwitz to help lead the efficient theft of Jewish property taken from those Jews in that very place before being sent to their death at that very place instead of going to the front line in Russia or Belgium or Africa as a common german soldier if he is disenchanted with Nazi beliefs or just wants to fight the war.

The following order thing is meaningless American troops in combat if they are told by whoever is in command to murder groups of civilian women in children and just mow them down, who is going to pay the price for that along with who gave the order.

[Mac-7]

Thanks. I actually know about some of that and I would agree they many of them have blood on their hands.

The far left hates Prescott Bush because he's a Bush.

That's understandable since lefties are such good haters.

But Ford was once a hero of the socialist left for his $5 a day minimum wage.

Indeed there are lefties today who love the guy because he's a model for "enlightened" business owners everywhere.

The history of nazi Germany is complicated.

Much too nuanced to be left to far left zealots and 20-something's.

and I only call you that since you were bashing Bob for his age in an earlier post.

[Bob]

People made choices.

First, there were plenty of Germans that chose not to participate in the Nazi regime or their war of aggression, sure they may have been punished for it or they had to flee but they did what they believed was right.

Second, the SS were fanatical Nazis with a bloody history prior to the death camps. To become a member of the SS you had to be Aryan, you had to be loyal to Hitler, you had to hate the Jews. To think that the SS was some social club or special branch of the military like the green berets or something like that and nothing more is just complete nonsense and lacking any sort of knowledge of history.

Third, he felt "super bad", are you kidding me? What is he, 9 years old?

and fourth, I want him treated as any criminal that participated in the efficiency of a genocide to should be treated. He was a member of the SS working at Auschwitz. He knew exactly what he was doing as a guard at a death camp, he knew exactly what went on there as a guard at a death camp, he did not just gather Jews clothes like some laundry guy and then wear blinders the rest of the time, no, he systematically organized and efficiently handled the stolen valuables of Jews being sent to the certain deaths after the arrived at the death camp he worked at, and he knew all of that and did nothing accept help the machine keep killing. He is accessory to murder. FACT. and he should spend the rest of his short life in jail. He is getting off easy compared to many others.

I don't know if it's because you're old and so you empathize with this guy because he is old but short of that every word you put out there defending this guy makes you seem more and more like some sort of nazi sympathizer than anything else. You are making excuse after excuse after excuse for a radical Nazi (you had to be to be in the SS) that helped make genocide financially possible while turning a blind eye to that genocide. He feels bad now, why's that, oh because he is having to answer for his crimes instead of being the guy that puts his fellow nazis in jail....crocodile tears. You are defending a man that was an accessory to the murder of hundred of thousands of innocent people. Put aside petty differences between the two of us and just let that absorb.

I have had all of your insults I plan to take.

You explained your Jew view. I say it because you said it.

I believe the treatment of the Polish Jews as well as Jews in other countries was an enormous crime. The people who were the authors of the crime were punished. I recall when I was in Berlin in 1963 that a well known Nazi was in the Berlin prison.

This man has done much to expose the Nazis. This particular person is different. When some denied the Holocaust, he stood up and proclaimed, no, you are wrong. There was one. I saw it happen.

There is one punishment for doing.

If you shop lift, you should be punished.

If I happen to see you shop lift, is that the same as what you did?

However, you persist in being awful to me. I simply come here to discuss. I gave a point of view. You have a different view.

I have not called you names nor taunted you nor insulted you. You were not born so you were not there. I was not there. I like to offer comments and realize at times they will be very controversial. But that is not my purpose. I have no control over others reactions. I would be less than honest to simply cave in because you happen to be a Jew.

I am done on this topic. No matter your insult or taunt, I said all i believe I can say.

Repeat, I have been to Germany and was then appalled at the treatment the Nazis handed out. They harmed a lot more than just Jews. The Hitler regime was a scourge on earth. Don't accuse me of liking Nazis.

[Mister D]

To me, the ones who are really guilty are the traitors who aided and funded Hitler's war machine, rich American Industrialists and bankers like Prescott Bush, Ford, and the Dupont chemical family, the Harimans and Rethuglican isolationists who refused to help England during her time of need. Then there was the pro Nazi conspirators who brought Nazis to America after the war, during Operation Paperclip, and the Vatican's ratline help getting Nazi war criminals safe entry into S. America!Study history, and you will be shocked!



lol

[Bob]

In the "perfect world" a 21 year old imagines, perfect justice happens.

This German is now on trial. He has asked for mercy. I believe the person doing the act, is who should get punished.

Read this case where a few American officers created the problem by ordering into a village, Lt. Calley who proceeded to slaughter the village.

Those who shot the villagers were not convicted. Those above the Lt. were not convicted.

I suppose I am more used to American justice than this thing they call German Justice. And the Germans have let off others who probably are more directly involved than this man, yet they put this one man on trial. He never has hid from what happened. He has told the story on BBC and in other venues.

This is whipping an old man for deeds done by others.

I know his role. It was not the role that caused death. This mean if there were German cooks, they too should go to jail. I don't think merely being there means you or him liked the duty. He explains he wanted away from that job. He would fight for his country but he asked over and over to be released. He was in no position to halt the killings.

Study the Lt. Calley story. This is my advantage of my age, I know more stories like this story.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/my-lai-massacre-takes-place-in-vietnam

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1054844#post1054844)
To me, the ones who are really guilty are the traitors who aided and funded Hitler's war machine, rich American Industrialists and bankers like Prescott Bush, Ford, and the Dupont chemical family, the Harimans and Rethuglican isolationists who refused to help England during her time of need. Then there was the pro Nazi conspirators who brought Nazis to America after the war, during Operation Paperclip, and the Vatican's ratline help getting Nazi war criminals safe entry into S. America!Study history, and you will be shocked!


Dr. Strangelove was eager, in fact almost desperate to use the Hydrogen bomb on Russia.

Seems weird to read such words by a person that adopted a mass killers name.

[Bob]

he needs to be tried...I'm an expert on the SS...I toured the Marshall Flight Center & saw Werner Von Braun's office.


Fine .... I have been to Alabama. I was in Phenix City when it was the haven of murder and many crimes. It was so notorious for crime it made the pages of magazines and other public papers.

Therefor, citizens of Alabama belong on trial for being in the state.

http://malefactorsregister.com/wp/?p=815

Part of the story


Until 1954, when the Alabama National Guard was called in to enforce limited martial law, there was a machine in place in Phenix City that didn’t blur the line between law and crime — it obliterated it.
“I saw city policemen openly buying votes for $5 or $10,” one veteran returning from WWII told the press. “I knew I didn’t fight for this.”
To get an idea of what the devolution of Phenix City must have been like, think the movie It’s a Wonderful Life. Bedford Falls with George Bailey was a nice place where people could walk the streets at night and raise kids and all went to the same church. They took soup to sick neighbors and even the girl of questionable virtue had a heart of gold.
In contrast, “Potterville,” the same city without George, was filled with bars, nightclubs, dance halls and worse. People walked the streets at night, but they were usually drunk, and if not, they were looking for love in all the wrong places.
People who are opposed to using casinos to inject much-needed capital into foundering municipalities can use Phenix City as a good example of what can go wrong when a community compromises its morals.
Like many small towns during the Depression, Phenix City was struggling. The city literally had no money — in 1932 the teachers were paid with valueless scrip. Something had to change, and the city fathers decided that perhaps legalizing beer, selling liquor licenses and taxing the drink might provide the city with the cash it needed.
It was a gutsy move because Prohibition had been repealed but Alabama and Russell County were dry. The state turned a blind eye, but for a time the Russell County authorities conducted half-hearted raids and confiscated the 3.2 beer the honky-tonks sold.

[PolWatch]

sounds good to me Bob. Let's put you on trial for everything in CA.

You pseudo repubs are so dishonest....tricky to tell people you have changed your wicked dem ways....tsk, tsk, tsk. I'm an expect on dems...ask Mac. He says that once a dem, always a dem. You have been outed by one of your buddies....

[PolWatch]

Google ads are really interesting. When I left this thread, the ad at the top of the page was crematorium services. I wonder if it was cued due to thread content or age of the posters.....

[Mister D]

Google ads are really interesting. When I left this thread, the ad at the top of the page was crematorium services. I wonder if it was cued due to thread content or age of the posters.....

lol really?

[PolWatch]

yeap...it was an interesting change from the ads for Russian women.

[PolWatch]

lol really?

if it appears again I'll try to get screen shot...

[Chloe]

I have had all of your insults I plan to take.

You explained your Jew view. I say it because you said it.

I believe the treatment of the Polish Jews as well as Jews in other countries was an enormous crime. The people who were the authors of the crime were punished. I recall when I was in Berlin in 1963 that a well known Nazi was in the Berlin prison.

This man has done much to expose the Nazis. This particular person is different. When some denied the Holocaust, he stood up and proclaimed, no, you are wrong. There was one. I saw it happen.

There is one punishment for doing.

If you shop lift, you should be punished.

If I happen to see you shop lift, is that the same as what you did?

However, you persist in being awful to me. I simply come here to discuss. I gave a point of view. You have a different view.

I have not called you names nor taunted you nor insulted you. You were not born so you were not there. I was not there. I like to offer comments and realize at times they will be very controversial. But that is not my purpose. I have no control over others reactions. I would be less than honest to simply cave in because you happen to be a Jew.

I am done on this topic. No matter your insult or taunt, I said all i believe I can say.

Repeat, I have been to Germany and was then appalled at the treatment the Nazis handed out. They harmed a lot more than just Jews. The Hitler regime was a scourge on earth. Don't accuse me of liking Nazis.

Lol my "Jew view"

Listen...
The Jews and many others were the real victims of the Nazis, including the guy you are defending and not wanting to see pay for his crimes......you are not the victim here Bob no matter how much you want to portray yourself as one. Have your pity party, defend the nazi, get your feelings hurt by a 21 year old, but stop acting like a victim.

[Bob]

Lol my "Jew view"

Listen...
The Jews and many others were the real victims of the Nazis, including the guy you are defending and not wanting to see pay for his crimes......you are not the victim here Bob no matter how much you want to portray yourself as one. Have your pity party, defend the nazi, get your feelings hurt by a 21 year old, but stop acting like a victim.

You played the victim. I offered my view. More than that, when pressed, I absorbed your insults and now you claim I am playing victim? I have not defended the man. I would be in the German court today if that is what I were doing. I am merely trying to see reason prevail. My feelings were not hurt by you. But thanks for trying. I realized that is your motive. As your post above shows.

[Blackrook]

There were millions of Germans who committed these atrocities and they can't punish them all.

This guy sorted through clothing, personal belongings and money and made inventory for Nazi records. He is no more guilty than the rest.

[Chloe]

You played the victim. I offered my view. More than that, when pressed, I absorbed your insults and now you claim I am playing victim? I have not defended the man. I would be in the German court today if that is what I were doing. I am merely trying to see reason prevail. My feelings were not hurt by you. But thanks for trying. I realized that is your motive. As your post above shows.


11235

[Howey]

Consider me not shocked at the forum bigots defending a war criminal.

When will Bush be going to trial?

[Bob]

Consider me not shocked at the forum bigots defending a war criminal.

When will Bush be going to trial?

You decided he is a war criminal. I just don't find people guilty because you say so or that Chloe pouts and demands I see it her way.

[Archer0915]

Today


'Accountant of Auschwitz' Oskar Groening Set to Stand Trial

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bookkeeper-auschwitz-oskar-groening-set-stand-trial-n344796

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html

MAINZ, Germany — Dozens of Holocaust survivors and their relatives from around the world are expected to converge on a German courtroom Tuesday as the so-called "accountant of Auschwitz" is due to go on trial.

Former concentration camp bookkeeper and guard Oskar Groening, 93, is accused of being an accessory to the murder of at least 300,000 Jews (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/93-year-old-auschwitz-guard-oskar-groening-stand-trial-300-n269141).

Groening's trial comes 70 years after the liberation of Adolf Hitler's concentration camps.

He is accused of working as a guard at the Auschwitz death camp between May and June 1944, when some 425,000 Jews from Hungary were brought there and at least 300,000 almost immediately gassed to death.

German prosecutors allege that Groening was responsible for dealing with the belongings and money stolen from camp victims, which is why he has often been referred to as "the accountant of Auschwitz" in the German media.



Videos Inside

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/16/article-2524560-1A24F9AA00000578-208_306x446.jpg

http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=256450

He was simply a pawn. Leave him alone.

[Chloe]

You decided he is a war criminal. I just don't find people guilty because you say so or that @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) pouts and demands I see it her way.

the vast majority of sane and logical people would consider a former SS soldier that worked at Auschwitz to be a war criminal but you seem to understand him so I guess you see it differently.

[Chloe]

He was simply a pawn. Leave him alone.

Pawns don't freely join the SS, contributors to the nazi holocaust do, nobody should leave him alone.

[Archer0915]

Pawns don't freely join the SS, contributors to the nazi holocaust do, nobody should leave him alone.

Oh so you were there? You really know your history don't you?

[Bob]

There were millions of Germans who committed these atrocities and they can't punish them all.

This guy sorted through clothing, personal belongings and money and made inventory for Nazi records. He is no more guilty than the rest.

I don't know if the German standards are lower than in the USA or higher. If higher, he won't serve a day in jail.

The man ran a glass factory. I wonder who will show up to support him?

He did not have to come out to tell the story against the Nazis as he did on public venues either. His thanks he going on trial.

[Chloe]

Oh so you were there? You really know your history don't you?

no you're right, he was forced to join a group that was highly selective

[PolWatch]

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev said he was a pawn used by his older brother. Think he should walk free? He was too young to know any better...wasn't he?

[Chloe]

I don't know if the German standards are lower than in the USA or higher. If higher, he won't serve a day in jail.

The man ran a glass factory. I wonder who will show up to support him?

He did not have to come out to tell the story against the Nazis as he did on public venues either. His thanks he going on trial.

Before that he worked at a place that gassed and cremated innocent human beings. I betcha none of those people show up though.

[Bob]

Pawns don't freely join the SS, contributors to the nazi holocaust do, nobody should leave him alone.

Louise here is a dear friend. Louise just left to go to the store and then home. I told her your problem Chloe.

Louise is a Jew. She knows me. She did not comment on your reaction but I told her, you are a young impressionable girl.

She was trying to grasp the story since it was new to her. I told her as I told you, i am no Nazi sympathizer but this dude was not killing. He happened to draw that dreadful assignment and was sick to his soul he was there. He does not think gassing Jews was fair. He is not defending the holocaust either. Just as i do not. It was an enormous crime. But not the only war crime of the Nazis or the Soviets for that matter. (dammit, i promised myself i was out of this mess)

[Bob]

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev said he was a pawn used by his older brother. Think he should walk free? He was too young to know any better...wasn't he?

He carried bombs and is found guilty. Maybe some of you ought to wait to find out first if the court finds this 93 year old man guilty. Ya think?

[PolWatch]

He carried bombs and is found guilty. Maybe some of you ought to wait to find out first if the court finds this 93 year old man guilty. Ya think?

Ya think he should face a trial before ya find him innocent?

[Bob]

no you're right, he was forced to join a group that was highly selective

When Peter joined Airborne, do you think he knew what he really was in for? Army Rangers and Navy Seals do things you don't want to know that they do.

Ask yourself this. If a soldier takes the life of one civilian, are they better than the person that took the life of a thousand civilians?

Then you have the case where a person took no lives. This old man could have taken lives before he was captured in war. He got his wish and was sent to the front.

[Chloe]

Louise here is a dear friend. Louise just left to go to the store and then home. I told her your problem @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565).

Louise is a Jew. She knows me. She did not comment on your reaction but I told her, you are a young impressionable girl.

She was trying to grasp the story since it was new to her. I told her as I told you, i am no Nazi sympathizer but this dude was not killing. He happened to draw that dreadful assignment and was sick to his soul he was there. He does not think gassing Jews was fair. He is not defending the holocaust either. Just as i do not. It was an enormous crime. But not the only war crime of the Nazis or the Soviets for that matter. (dammit, i promised myself i was out of this mess)

Say hi to Louise for me

Look, I don't think you are a nazi or a nazi supporter, however, to say he is innocent because he claims he didn't like what was happening to the Jews at Auschwitz is like a gang member claiming he doesn't like how his gang treats their most hated rival. He was an accessory to murder by his actions of helping the continuation of the holocaust by means of mass financial theft through mass extermination from which the money collected went into furthering the ability to fund murder. He knew Nazi Germany's view of Jews and he certainly knew that the SS were the truest of the true believers, of which he joined. He was not ignorant of what was going on so he cant claim innocent through that. He was not sympathetic to the Jews in the camp otherwise he would have either tried to stop it like many other Germans tried and so therefore he can't claim that he is innocent because he fought against the murderers. Whether or not he feels guilty about it now and wants to reconcile is beside the point. He can't just shed some tears or tell some stories and expect to be let off the hook for his own culpability. I get that it's been a long time since he was in that sort of job at that camp but length of time does not lessen guilt in my opinion. That's all I mean by this. Look past the sympathetic old man's face and his sympathetic words and look at where he served and how little he did to stop it all, through whatever means, when the true horror was taking place. I just don't buy it. I'm sorry.

[Chloe]

When Peter joined Airborne, do you think he knew what he really was in for? Army Rangers and Navy Seals do things you don't want to know that they do.

Ask yourself this. If a soldier takes the life of one civilian, are they better than the person that took the life of a thousand civilians?

Then you have the case where a person took no lives. This old man could have taken lives before he was captured in war. He got his wish and was sent to the front.

I can assure you that if Peter1469 were assigned to a set of buildings outside of a small town and when he arrived found that Americans were mass murdering Jews he wouldn't have been there long.

[Bob]

Ya think he should face a trial before ya find him innocent?

I believe you don't declare them guilty until found guilty. Then as you know DNA has freed many who were put into prison and were convicted. Justice is apparently not your desire. Why is that?

[Matty]

Ya think he should face a trial before ya find him innocent?


That's the American way. Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

[Howey]

the vast majority of sane and logical people would consider a former SS soldier that worked at Auschwitz to be a war criminal but you seem to understand him so I guess you see it differently.

Unfortunately, those we're dealing with in this thread don't fall in that category.

[Peter1469]

I can assure you that if @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) were assigned to a set of buildings outside of a small town and when he arrived found that Americans were mass murdering Jews he wouldn't have been there long.

In my officer capacity I would have relived the commander and placed him under arrest.

[PolWatch]

I believe you don't declare them guilty until found guilty. Then as you know DNA has freed many who were put into prison and were convicted. Justice is apparently not your desire. Why is that?

make yer mind up Bob. First you declare him innocent. Then you say wait until his trial....now you want to talk about DNA? do you think he was found innocent using DNA in 1948? Confusion rules!

[Bob]

Say hi to Louise for me

Look, I don't think you are a nazi or a nazi supporter, however, to say he is innocent because he claims he didn't like what was happening to the Jews at Auschwitz is like a gang member claiming he doesn't like how his gang treats their most hated rival. He was an accessory to murder by his actions of helping the continuation of the holocaust by means of mass financial theft through mass extermination from which the money collected went into furthering the ability to fund murder. He knew Nazi Germany's view of Jews and his certainly knew that the SS were the truest of the true believers. He was not ignorant of what was going on so he cant claim innocent through that. He was not sympathetic to the Jews in the camp otherwise he would have either tried to stop it like many other Germans tried and so therefore he can't claim that he is innocent because he fought against the murderers. Whether or not he feels guilty about it now and wants to reconcile is beside the point. He can't just shed some tears or tell some stories and expect to be let off the hook for his own culpability. I get that it's been a long time since he was in that sort of job at that camp but length of time does not lessen guilt in my opinion. That's all I mean by this. Look past the sympathetic old man's face and his sympathetic words and look at where he served and how little he did to stop it all, through whatever means, when the true horror was taking place. I just don't buy it. I'm sorry.

I showed Louise your avatar. I believe she thinks it is darling, so do I for that matter.

As I told to PW, I don't find them guilty ahead of a trial. I believe had he killed prisoners, my feeling would be vastly different. If he admitted to killing, to me he would deserve death. Even by slow painful death.

All I can tell you is my experience. I was in the Army for 2 years. By the time they got done with our basic training, we were robots. Robots to the core. We would have shot to kill whom we were told to shoot to kill. That is how the Government does things.

The Nazis were even worse. They did not mind who they killed.

I appreciate your story. I appreciate your view. I really do. I could simply toss in the towel and say let's hang him. I studied law for a good reason. I don't rush to judgement. Not in my bones.

[Bob]

make yer mind up Bob. First you declare him innocent. Then you say wait until his trial....now you want to talk about DNA? do you think he was found innocent using DNA in 1948? Confusion rules!

What more can you want? I did say in 1948, he was put on trial and found not guilty. Not sure I typed the word innocent. But if that happened, I meant not guilty.

Tell me this PW, do you believe in double jeopardy?

[Bob]

In my officer capacity I would have relived the commander and placed him under arrest.

Could you have done that as an Officer in the WW2 German Army?

[Bob]

That's the American way. Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

i am the forum a-hole for believing that same thing. Who would figure it.

[Peter1469]

Could you have done that as an Officer in the WW2 German Army?

At risk of being shot.

[Matty]

i am the forum a-hole for believing that same thing. Who would figure it.


If you are a conservative you're a forum ahole. They just change our names when convenient. :)

[PolWatch]

I could find nothing that said he was charged or tried in 1948. Double jeopardy is an American concept...not sure if it applies in Germany. Peter1469 do you know if Germany has the same double jeopardy laws as we do?

[Bob]

I can assure you that if @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) were assigned to a set of buildings outside of a small town and when he arrived found that Americans were mass murdering Jews he wouldn't have been there long.

Peter says if he was a Nazi Officer, he would have arrested them. (I seriously doubt this)

While this is how it works for American officers finding Americans doing this, I doubt he believes the German officers had the power you think they had.

[PolWatch]

i am the forum a-hole for believing that same thing. Who would figure it.

Since the trial is in Germany that has as much relevance as a poot in the wind....

[Bob]

I could find nothing that said he was charged or tried in 1948. Double jeopardy is an American concept...not sure if it applies in Germany. @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) do you know if Germany has the same double jeopardy laws as we do?

I posted the proof he was tried in 1948 two or three times. If you want me to @ you, you will find out.

[PolWatch]

a link will be sufficient

[Peter1469]

I could find nothing that said he was charged or tried in 1948. Double jeopardy is an American concept...not sure if it applies in Germany. @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) do you know if Germany has the same double jeopardy laws as we do?

I doubt it.

[Bob]

He was not charged in 1948...he could not have been found innocent. ''This guilt will never leave me. I can only plead for forgiveness and pray for atonement,' he said

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XtOOWWT6
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

I am tired of this dog and pony show.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XskGeXYD
This link ...and when you see the page, scroll down to the photo of the gate to the camp and read the words.

It says

The former guard has previously spoken at trials after the war of the operations of the gas chambers and crematoria, but has denied any involvement.
In 1948, a tribunal cleared him of war crimes and he began working as the manager of a glass factory.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XzMnerhO
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

[Bob]

a link will be sufficient

Done and I posted the words.

The former guard has previously spoken at trials after the war of the operations of the gas chambers and crematoria, but has denied any involvement.
In 1948, a tribunal cleared him of war crimes and he began working as the manager of a glass factory.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580101/Former-Auschwitz-guard-Oskar-Groening-deemed-fit-stand-trial-mass-murder-admits-I-hear-cries-dead-dreams-waking-moment.html#ixzz3XzMnerhO
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=MailOnline) | DailyMail on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail)

[PolWatch]

thank you... he was not charged and did not have a trial...exactly what I have tried to explain to you.

I have attached an explanation of what a tribunal is so you will understand HE DID NOT HAVE A TRIAL so he could not be found guilty or innocent. They found they did not have enough evidence AT THAT TIME.

Many governmental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government) bodies that are titled 'tribunals' are so described to emphasize that they are not courts of normal jurisdiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction).

[Bob]

Since the trial is in Germany that has as much relevance as a poot in the wind....

My Southern roots makes me know just what you said. LMAO If you poot in the wind, you are naked as a jaybird. LOL

[Bob]

If you are a conservative you're a forum ahole. They just change our names when convenient. :)

It is so freaking clear.

[PolWatch]

Clear as mud...whine & cheese...the official snack of the forum....

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1055952#post1055952)
Could you have done that as an Officer in the WW2 German Army?



At risk of being shot.

This is what Chloe and Polwatch don't understand.

To defy the Reich was death.

[Matty]

Tribunals are usually conducted by military.

[Bob]

Clear as mud...whine & cheese...the official snack of the forum....

Oh really, you are so snarky and now you add that snark?

I pray you read the link you demanded.

[Bob]

Tribunals are usually conducted by military.

it is a military trial.

[Bob]

thank you... he was not charged and did not have a trial...exactly what I have tried to explain to you.

I have attached an explanation of what a tribunal is so you will understand HE DID NOT HAVE A TRIAL so he could not be found guilty or innocent. They found they did not have enough evidence AT THAT TIME.

Many governmental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government) bodies that are titled 'tribunals' are so described to emphasize that they are not courts of normal jurisdiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction).

Omy god

Maybe to you they gave him a pat on his butt and away he went.

LOL

tri·bu·nal
trīˈbyo͞onl,trəˈbyo͞onl/
noun


a court of justice.
"an international war crimes tribunal"


synonyms:
arbitration board/panel, board (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=610&q=define+board&sa=X&ei=Rdw2VdCMGcP2yQSFw4DIBQ&ved=0CB8Q_SowAA), panel (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=610&q=define+panel&sa=X&ei=Rdw2VdCMGcP2yQSFw4DIBQ&ved=0CCAQ_SowAA), committee (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=610&q=define+committee&sa=X&ei=Rdw2VdCMGcP2yQSFw4DIBQ&ved=0CCEQ_SowAA), jury (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=610&q=define+jury&sa=X&ei=Rdw2VdCMGcP2yQSFw4DIBQ&ved=0CCIQ_SowAA), forum (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&espv=2&biw=1024&bih=610&q=define+forum&sa=X&ei=Rdw2VdCMGcP2yQSFw4DIBQ&ved=0CCMQ_SowAA); More










a seat or bench for a judge or judges.

[Bob]

I can assure you that if @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) were assigned to a set of buildings outside of a small town and when he arrived found that Americans were mass murdering Jews he wouldn't have been there long.

Did you read what Peter said? As a Reich officer, to do what you want means certain death. At least a serious chance he would be put in front of the firing squad. This guy was a Sergeant. They would shoot them all day long.

I have found articles alleging he was an officer but most put his rank at Sgt.

As it is, he got sent to the front for complaining.

[Chloe]

This is what @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) and Polwatch don't understand.

To defy the Reich was death.

Actually I totally understand that fact. He would have risked death or prison by refusing to take part in the operations of Auschwitz but he didn't and so you have to ask why. Was it because he truly believed in what he was doing a a SS soldier?

[PolWatch]

yes Bob, I read the link...he was not charged so he did not have a trial...you do understand that there is a difference in not finding enough evidence for a trial at the time and having a trial and finding him innocent...don't you? Keep trying though... I've never liked shows like Dancing with the Stars but this is kinda fun....

[Bob]

Before that he worked at a place that gassed and cremated innocent human beings. I betcha none of those people show up though.

OK

:deadhorse:

[Bob]

yes Bob, I read the link...he was not charged so he did not have a trial...you do understand that there is a difference in not finding enough evidence for a trial at the time and having a trial and finding him innocent...don't you? Keep trying though... I've never liked shows like Dancing with the Stars but this is kinda fun....

Tribunal is just a fun word for you isn't it?

Tribunal means what Polwatch decides it means.

[PolWatch]

Where are we now? He wore a really neat uniform that Bob admires. He was not charged in 1948 and Bob seems to think that DNA was involved in the decision to not have a trial then....I'm confused on that point but I'm game....if Bob says it, it must be so. Have I got it right so far?

[Polecat]

Actually I totally understand that fact. He would have risked death or prison by refusing to take part in the operations of Auschwitz but he didn't and so you have to ask why. Was it because he truly believed in what he was doing a a SS soldier?

From that one picture of him I doubt he fully understood anything that was going on around him. He was what his world taught him to be. Are you going to be just like he was and embrace a hatred because that is what your world has taught you to do?

[Bob]

Actually I totally understand that fact. He would have risked death or prison by refusing to take part in the operations of Auschwitz but he didn't and so you have to ask why. Was it because he truly believed in what he was doing a a SS soldier?

If I have not misread the story, he was only there for maybe 2 months asking to be sent to the front.

I assure you if you watch a car run over a pedestrian and they try to prosecute you, you will finally get it.

[PolWatch]

From that one picture of him I doubt he fully understood anything that was going on around him. He was what his world taught him to be. Are you going to be just like he was and embrace a hatred because that is what your world has taught you to do?

Does the same idea apply to the guy charged with the Boston bombing? He did what his older brother told him to do...etc, etc. Should he be forgiven with a pat on the head? What about those who practice honor killings of their female children? Killing them for speaking to a male? Should they just get a pat on the head?

People are responsible for their choices.

[Bob]

the vast majority of sane and logical people would consider a former SS soldier that worked at Auschwitz to be a war criminal but you seem to understand him so I guess you see it differently.

Wow, now i am insane and not logical

I am simply following what i know of law and having been in the Army understanding how the system works. My time spent in Germany also gives me added insights.

You convicted him and he is just now on trial.

If the court convicts the man, I plan to live just fine and not lose one bit of sleep over this man.

[PolWatch]

I get credit for added insights on the SS...I saw Werner Von Braun's office.

[Matty]

Actually I totally understand that fact. He would have risked death or prison by refusing to take part in the operations of Auschwitz but he didn't and so you have to ask why. Was it because he truly believed in what he was doing a a SS soldier?


You know what is really sad? Some Jews did the same thing. They helped the Nazis herd their fellow men into the showers and to their deaths just so they could live a few months longer.

[Polecat]

Does the same idea apply to the guy charged with the Boston bombing? He did what his older brother told him to do...etc, etc. Should he be forgiven with a pat on the head? What about those who practice honor killings of their female children? Killing them for speaking to a male? Should they just get a pat on the head?

People are responsible for their choices.

They should be forgiven. That is not the same as saying they should get a pat on the head and released. The act of forgiveness frees the person that offers it. Not the person that receives it.

[Bob]

You know what is really sad? Some Jews did the same thing. They helped the Nazis herd their fellow men into the showers and to their deaths just so they could live a few months longer.

Yes, that is true. Good catch.

I wonder if the Jews that lived deserve to be put on trial since they saw what happened and survived?

What about this Chloe or is your justice merely for Germans? In fact if you were a German Jew you had more of a chance to survive since German neighbors would help them survive.

[PolWatch]

They should be forgiven. That is not the same as saying they should get a pat on the head and released. The act of forgiveness frees the person that offers it. Not the person that receives it.

I agree. I also feel that people have responsibility for their actions...even if the cost does not come due for years. The actions are not erased with time nor is the responsibility.

[Matty]

Yes, that is true. Good catch.

I wonder if the Jews that lived deserve to be put on trial since they saw what happened and survived?

What about this @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) or is your justice merely for Germans? In fact if you were a German Jew you had more of a chance to survive since German neighbors would help them survive.


I don't think so. They were still victims. I just brought it up to illustrate what lengths humans will go to to be able to stay alive.

[Polecat]

I don't think so. They were still victims. I just brought it up to illustrate what lengths humans will go to to be able to stay alive.

It is something none of us should ever have to know about themselves.

[Chloe]

Yes, that is true. Good catch.

I wonder if the Jews that lived deserve to be put on trial since they saw what happened and survived?

What about this @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) or is your justice merely for Germans? In fact if you were a German Jew you had more of a chance to survive since German neighbors would help them survive.

Anybody that helped commit murder or made the murder possible in the camps should be held accountable.

[Bob]

I don't think so. They were still victims. I just brought it up to illustrate what lengths humans will go to to be able to stay alive.

i see this German as unwilling to be there too. It is easy for an American to tell a German soldier what to do, but try this as an actual German at such a camp. Solders under the Reich were not treated with kid gloves. I was trying to get Chloe and Polwatch to understand but apparently they think German soldiers had plenty of options.

This was not how it was for them.

[Matty]

It is something none of us should ever have to know about themselves.


I know. I have often wondered about how brave I would be. I hope I could find the courage.

[Peter1469]

I imagine many saw Operation Valkyrie?

[Peter1469]

I imagine many saw Operation Valkyrie?

Tom Cruise lasted about 2 minutes after he was discovered.

[Bob]

Anybody that helped commit murder or made the murder possible in the camps should be held accountable.

There were Jews that helped the Germans.

[Chloe]

There were Jews that helped the Germans.

Yes i know

[Chloe]

i see this German as unwilling to be there too. It is easy for an American to tell a German soldier what to do, but try this as an actual German at such a camp. Solders under the Reich were not treated with kid gloves. I was trying to get @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) and Polwatch to understand but apparently they think German soldiers had plenty of options.

This was not how it was for them.

You always have the freedom to follow your conscience. It just comes down to are you prepared to accept the possible consequences of that choice to follow it or betray it.

[Peter1469]

Tom Cruise lasted about 2 minutes after he was discovered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtCaVtryiE

[Bob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHtCaVtryiE

I watched the movie at home a few years back. I felt it was realistic. Heil Hitler. :rofl::rofl:

[Bob]

You always have the freedom to follow your conscience. It just comes down to are you prepared to accept the possible consequences of that choice to follow it or betray it.

One thing you keep forgetting. Germany invaded Poland The jews they were killing for the most part were located in Poland.

You do realize in war people are killed?????????????

Another thing

Germany invaded Poland in 1939, April i believe.

They were not gassing Jews prior to 1942. Wasn't it 1944 by the time he shows up?

Also, Hitler kept this secret. Even the Germans back in Germany were kept in the dark. Those who figured something bad could happen to the Jews in Germany would try to help the Jews survive so long as they had some way.

Neighbors spied on neighbors making it hard to save them.

[Chloe]

One thing you keep forgetting. Germany invaded Poland The jews they were killing for the most part were located in Poland.

I keep forgetting???? It hasn't even been a topic yet.


You do realize in war people are killed?????????????

This is an example of your annoying condescension. You mean to tell me that they don't use paintballs in war?????


Another thing

Germany invaded Poland in 1939, April i believe.

They were not gassing Jews prior to 1942. Wasn't it 1944 by the time he shows up?

are you asking me or telling me?


Also, Hitler kept this secret. Even the Germans back in Germany were kept in the dark. Those who figured something bad could happen to the Jews in Germany would try to help the Jews survive so long as they had some way.

Neighbors spied on neighbors making it hard to save them.

six millions jews were murdered. Seems to me that most germans didn't do much to help their plight. That's not to say there weren't good germans actively helping them but even before knowledge of the camps were known all germans in germany knew of the extreme policies directed at the jews yet many, if not most, did nothing.

[Peter1469]

The accountant dude said at trial that he was morally guilty but the court has to decide if he is legally guilty.

[PolWatch]

people die in wars? I guess the military issues crematoriums to all the soldiers. That is the only way that remark is relevant to this discussion.

[Peter1469]

If the Nazi's didn't waste so many resources on going after the Jews they may have won WWII.

[Chloe]

people die in wars? I guess the military issues crematoriums to all the soldiers. That is the only way that remark is relevant to this discussion.

I didn't know that people died in wars! I don't know how to react to that new information.

[Common]

The accountant dude said at trial that he was morally guilty but the court has to decide if he is legally guilty.

I was going to post the link to that, I just read it a few mins ago that he admitted moral responsiblity, he also said he believes he will be aquitted

[Bob]

I keep forgetting???? It hasn't even been a topic yet.



This is an example of your annoying condescension. You mean to tell me that they don't use paintballs in war?????



are you asking me or telling me?



six millions jews were murdered. Seems to me that most germans didn't do much to help their plight. That's not to say there weren't good germans actively helping them but even before knowledge of the camps were known all germans in germany knew of the extreme policies directed at the jews yet many, if not most, did nothing.

Come on Chloe, this has to be fun for you. A lot of fun. You have gnawed my leg for two days over this.
Have fun. Make out as if you are smiling.

Be a good head.

[Bob]

If the Nazi's didn't waste so many resources on going after the Jews they may have won WWII.

Good point. I never thought of it that way. Seems though that the Normandy landings sealed their fate. Terrible planning for that area and poor use of tanks.

They needed to keep the beaches secure I believe.

[Common]

If the Nazi's didn't waste so many resources on going after the Jews they may have won WWII.

Going into russia buried them

[Bob]

Going into russia buried them

They probably did not expect the Soviets to get help.

[Common]

They probably did not expect the Soviets to get help.

Soviets were smart, as they germans pushed them back they destroyed everything so the germans had to keep bringing in supplies to the front further and further. Until it broke their back, If I remember the germans ran out of fuel.

[Bob]

Soviets were smart, as they germans pushed them back they destroyed everything so the germans had to keep bringing in supplies to the front further and further. Until it broke their back, If I remember the germans ran out of fuel.

Yes and when logistics lines are extreme, it ties up more and more resources to supply the needs. Germany had millions of troops in the Soviet areas thus the sum total of logistics was bound to be a major problem. You are looking at an 19 hour trip with today's fast vehicles vs the slow military vehicles then in use.

[exotix]

Is Auschwitz Guard Oskar Groening Guilty by Association in Holocaust Deaths ?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/auschwitz-guard-oskar-groening-guilty-association-holocaust-deaths-n345811

Auschwitz prison guard Oskar Groening claims he stood idly by when doctors at his death camp decided who among the thousands of Jews were fit for work — and who would be slaughtered.

The former SS sergeant knew the horrors of the Holocaust firsthand, but on his second day of testimony Wednesday in a German courtroom, he remained adamant that he never personally chose who should be killed during the Nazi atrocities of World War II.

Instead, he has said, he is merely "morally complicit."

"Whether I am legally guilty under criminal law, you will have to decide," the visibly frail 93-year-old earlier told judges hearing his case in Lueneburg, northern Germany.

Video Inside

'Auschwitz bookkepper' tells court of grisly mass murder he witnessed at death camphttp://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-04-21/trial-begins-for-the-bookkeeper-of-auschwitz-oskar-groning/ … (http://t.co/ct3Yx5E5yv)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDILhzmWgAEfkFq.jpg:large

[Captain Obvious]

This was posted already but I don't know what a trial does at this point, other than sentiment.

[exotix]

This was posted already but I don't know what a trial does at this point, other than sentiment.
All civilized society's recognize that there is no statute of limitations on murder and other heinous crimes ...

[Captain Obvious]

All civilized society's recognize that there is no statute of limitations on murder and other heinous crimes ...

Wonderful

[Guerilla]

In other news, I heard the German military is obliged to disobey commanding orders if it violates human dignity or something like that. Obviously done because of their history as Nazis. But it's cool, more countries should have it.

[Mister D]

Soviets were smart, as they germans pushed them back they destroyed everything so the germans had to keep bringing in supplies to the front further and further. Until it broke their back, If I remember the germans ran out of fuel.

The USSR was devastated by the war. The Soviets scorched the earth in retreat. The Germans did the same thing a few years later.

[Mister D]

In other news, I heard the German military is obliged to disobey commanding orders if it violates human dignity or something like that. Obviously done because of their history as Nazis. But it's cool, more countries should have it.

Pardon my French but fuck this. The only reason this guilt is continually foisted on Germany is so that she doesn't take her rightful place in Europe and the world.

[PolWatch]

The USSR was devastated by the war. The Soviets scorched the earth in retreat. The Germans did the same thing a few years later.

I read an article where a Russian was really laughing at the idea of the sanctions against them....he said something about the Russian people had survived over a year during the siege of Stalingrad and we now expected them to get upset over minor sanctions! The Russian people are tenacious if nothing else!

[Mister D]

I read an article where a Russian was really laughing at the idea of the sanctions against them....he said something about the Russian people had survived over a year during the siege of Stalingrad and we now expected them to get upset over minor sanctions! The Russian people are tenacious if nothing else!

Too bad Aly isn't here. yes, they have a tragic dimension to their personality.

[Peter1469]

The Russian people historically have "lived in the suck." They went through a prosperous decade and don't see returning to their "natural" state as the end of the world.

[Polecat]

The Russian people historically have "lived in the suck." They went through a prosperous decade and don't see returning to their "natural" state as the end of the world.

This will be to their benefit through tough times. We, on the other hand will be sobbing our eyes out and become dysfunctional when adversity comes.

[Peter1469]

This will be to their benefit through tough times. We, on the other hand will be sobbing our eyes out and become dysfunctional when adversity comes.

That is true for some Americans, not all.

[Polecat]

That is true for some Americans, not all.

No names please.

[exotix]

Just In

Auschwitz Survivor Recounts Horrors of Mengele

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/oskar-groening-trial-auschwitz-survivor-catches-fainting-nazi-guard-court-n346226

LUENEBURG, Germany — One of the last remaining survivors of Auschwitz confronted the death camp's so-called accountant on Wednesday, saying her forgiveness of Nazi crimes did not absolve the perpetrators from taking responsibility.

As a 10-year-old, Eva Kor became prisoner A-7063 at Auschwitz — torn from her family and subjected to horrific medical experiments at the hands of Dr. Josef Mengele, the Nazis' so-called Angel of Death.

On Wednesday, the now 81-year-old was in court for the trial of 93-year-old Oskar Groening — charged as an accessory to the murder of 300,000 people (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/auschwitz-bookkeeper-oskar-groening-goes-trial-germany-n345411) at Auschwitz.

"Did you know Josef Mengele?" the Hungarian native asked a fragile Groening.
"Did you hear about his experiments ?"

Kor took the stand as the grandson of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess looked on.

She started with a statement about the deaths of 119 of her relatives and told the court how she and her twin sister, Miriam, were torn apart from their family within 30 minutes of arriving at Auschwitz.


Video Inside

http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Video/__NEW/x_lon_germanykor_150422.nbcnews-video-reststate-800.jpg