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Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:00 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/islamic-state-seizes-capital-of-iraq’s-largest-province/ar-BBjP0JY?ocid=ansWashpost11

Ramadi cost 1,300 US lives to defeat Arab militants.

I'll let our self-proclaimed military experts who tell us Isis is no big deal 'splain this one to us.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:21 PM
There was no immediate sign of U.S.-led airstrikes, which have been waged against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria since last year.

There's 900,000 people in that city. I wonder how many of them are going to find their heads removed from their body by the end of the month thanks to us...

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:27 PM
There's 900,000 people in that city. I wonder how many of them are going to find their heads removed from their body by the end of the month thanks to us...

I would say thanks to obumer and Isis.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:32 PM
I would say thanks to obumer and Isis.

Had Bush not fumbled the occupation like a mini-T-Rex they would not be in this situation.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:33 PM
Anbar is Sunni too so I wonder how many recruits they will pick up either willingly or not.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:33 PM
Had Bush not fumbled the occupation like a mini-T-Rex they would not be in this situation.

The Arab terrorists were defeated in Iraq when bush left office.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:35 PM
The Arab terrorists were defeated in Iraq when bush left office.

Ummm... No...

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 06:35 PM
The Arab terrorists were defeated in Iraq when bush left office.

Not totally. ISIL was operating inside Iraq the entire time we were there, even after they were supposedly defeated.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:37 PM
Not totally. ISIL was operating inside Iraq the entire time we were there, even after they were supposedly defeated.

The simple truth is Obama followed Bush's "exit strategy". Sure shit hit the fan in 2011 when we left but Bush would have done the exact same thing.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:38 PM
Ummm... No...

Actually yes they were unable to stand up to the US military.

They were defeated.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 06:38 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/islamic-state-seizes-capital-of-iraq’s-largest-province/ar-BBjP0JY?ocid=ansWashpost11

Ramadi cost 1,300 US lives to defeat Arab militants.

I'll let our self-proclaimed military experts who tell us Isis is no big deal 'splain this one to us.

The city has not been taken. Key government buildings have.

The Iraqi military is also J/V- or worse.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:40 PM
Not totally. ISIL was operating inside Iraq the entire time we were there, even after they were supposedly defeated.

I knew you would explain it to us novices.

But they were not flying the black flag over ramadi.

Something most light infantry would do if they could

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 06:41 PM
I knew you would explain it to us novices.

But they were not flying the black flag over ramadi.

Something most light infantry would do if they could

While the US was there, after they were defeated, they spent their time assassinating Sunni leaders who had turned on them, as well as Shia enemies.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:42 PM
The simple truth is Obama followed Bush's "exit strategy". Sure $#@! hit the fan in 2011 when we left but Bush would have done the exact same thing.

Plans are not written in stone unless you are a community organizer with no foreign policy experience.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:43 PM
While the US was there, after they were defeated, they spent their time assassinating Sunni leaders who had turned on them, as well as Shia enemies.

Those pesky junior varsity rascals.

I knew you would know why all is well.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:44 PM
Actually yes they were unable to stand up to the US military.

They were defeated.

While the violence reduced dramatically after Iraqi forces took over...AQ was still very active in 2008. Throw in the Baathists, Iraqi Nationalists, Shi'a militias, etc. and it was Bush's plan to leave in 2011 that was the 2nd monumental mistake.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:45 PM
Plans are not written in stone unless you are a community organizer with no foreign policy experience.

According to Colin Powel they are and need to be. Both Bush's followed this doctrine and it failed both times.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 06:46 PM
While the violence reduced dramatically after Iraqi forces took over...AQ was still very active in 2008. Throw in the Baathists, Iraqi Nationalists, Shi'a militias, etc. and it was Bush's plan to leave in 2011 that was the 2nd monumental mistake.

The occupation and bringing of democracy was the mistake. The Iraqis are not interested in democracy and they would have started fighting the second the US left, whatever that date was.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 06:47 PM
motorized light infantry. not light infantry.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:48 PM
While the violence reduced dramatically after Iraqi forces took over...AQ was still very active in 2008. Throw in the Baathists, Iraqi Nationalists, Shi'a militias, etc. and it was Bush's plan to leave in 2011 that was the 2nd monumental mistake.

Bush may have changed his mind.

If he were still president but didn't rethink the plan then the blame is his.

but the fact is obumer is the one who pissed away the victory that bush left behind

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 06:50 PM
motorized light infantry. not light infantry.


Forgive me.

Thats why we need you to teach us.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:55 PM
The occupation and bringing of democracy was the mistake. The Iraqis are not interested in democracy and they would have started fighting the second the US left, whatever that date was.

What their interest is or isn't really isn't my #1 priority. We could have made it work. We actually should have started in '91. We would have 24 years in at this point and we would have walked into a vastly different environment.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 06:56 PM
motorized light infantry. not light infantry.

In fairness Light Infantry by definition really doesn't exist anymore. It's all motorized and or mechanized.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:07 PM
What their interest is or isn't really isn't my #1 priority. We could have made it work. We actually should have started in '91. We would have 24 years in at this point and we would have walked into a vastly different environment.

You are optimistic, at least.

The Syrian army was at my left rear. I am glad Bush didn't tell us to keep going towards Baghdad.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:09 PM
In fairness Light Infantry by definition really doesn't exist anymore. It's all motorized and or mechanized.

10th MTN
101st ABN (Air Assault)
82nd ABN
75th Inf (Ranger Regiment)
several other battalion sized elements attached to other formations.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:10 PM
You are optimistic, at least.

The Syrian army was at my left rear. I am glad Bush didn't tell us to keep going towards Baghdad.

Yeah but the Israeli's had your back and if Syria jumped in the coalition would have joined in the fight.

There was never a better time with regards to the hearts and minds of Iraqis then 1991.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:12 PM
10th MTN
101st ABN (Air Assault)
82nd ABN
75th Inf (Ranger Regiment)
several other battalion sized elements attached to other formations.

Sure but how we define "Light Infantry" today is a far cry from the origins of light infantry and even that of early modern age skirmishers. They still use vehicles to go everywhere and to me that's motorized and mechanized.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 07:13 PM
Whatever we call it Americans can go back to sleep based on the assurances of military and foreign policy experts here and in the White House that Isis is no threat to this country.

Thats all we need to know.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:14 PM
Yeah but the Israeli's had your back and if Syria jumped in the coalition would have joined in the fight.

There was never a better time with regards to the hearts and minds of Iraqis then 1991.

I think it is true that there was not an organized radical Islamic movement in Iraq at that time that could have fill the power vacuum. But I don't see the Iraqi people working together to build a democratic state. The Shia hated the Sunnis even more back then.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:17 PM
Sure but how we define "Light Infantry" today is a far cry from the origins of light infantry and even that of early modern age skirmishers. They still use vehicles to go everywhere and to me that's motorized and mechanized.

The airborne unit get dropped off via airplanes at 600-800 feet and then walk.

The air assault units get dropped off via helicopter and only have limited vehicle support. Typically 2 Humvees per line company.

Each of these units can be supported by other combat service support units once they catch up.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:18 PM
I think it is true that there was not an organized radical Islamic movement in Iraq at that time that could have fill the power vacuum. But I don't see the Iraqi people working together to build a democratic state. The Shia hated the Sunnis even more back then.

It would have been delicate and would have taken a long time no doubt. But I can almost guarantee that we wouldn't have seen the violence akin to that of the occupation and civil war we saw in 2006-2008 and we would have been able to create a more secular Constitution.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:20 PM
Whatever we call it Americans can go back to sleep based on the assurances of military and foreign policy experts here and in the White House that Isis is no threat to this country.

Thats all we need to know.

They are not a major threat outside of their region. If they were we would have had a major attack in this country.

If you noticed, IS is making statements that they have trained fighters inside the US. If that were true, one would think that they would not make that information public out of fear that we would find them and roll them up.

What IS can do is get grassroots lone wolves (i.e. US residents) to attack on their own initiative. As we saw in Garland, Texas, those attacks tend to be less than spectacular. Much less. 15 seconds and 2 shots from a traffic cop ended that attack.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:22 PM
It would have been delicate and would have taken a long time no doubt. But I can almost guarantee that we wouldn't have seen the violence akin to that of the occupation and civil war we saw in 2006-2008 and we would have been able to create a more secular Constitution.

But would they have followed it, or just started killing each other once we left?

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:26 PM
The airborne unit get dropped off via airplanes at 600-800 feet and then walk.

The air assault units get dropped off via helicopter and only have limited vehicle support. Typically 2 Humvees per line company.

Each of these units can be supported by other combat service support units once they catch up.

Exactly. They have 4 Cavalry Regiments, an Aviation Brigade, Field Artillery, MRAPS and other heavy duty cool stuff. "Light" is a misnomer.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:27 PM
But would they have followed it, or just started killing each other once we left?

We will never know. I think the odds were certainly in our favor then whereas against in 03.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:33 PM
Exactly. They have 4 Cavalry Regiments, an Aviation Brigade, Field Artillery, MRAPS and other heavy duty cool stuff. "Light" is a misnomer.


Which unit are you referring too.

Not to complicate things, but the army no longer fights as divisions. New doctrine will plug smaller units together in a combined arms force for a specific mission.

When I use the term motorized light infantry with respect to IS, I mean they operate in whatever vehicle that they can steal or get a hold of, and they travel to the area of combat on those. It is not an organized military formation in any sense of the word, light, motorized, armor, artillery, etc.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:37 PM
Which unit are you referring too.

Not to complicate things, but the army no longer fights as divisions. New doctrine will plug smaller units together in a combined arms force for a specific mission.

When I use the term motorized light infantry with respect to IS, I mean they operate in whatever vehicle that they can steal or get a hold of, and they travel to the area of combat on those. It is not an organized military formation in any sense of the word, light, motorized, armor, artillery, etc.

Fair enough. Although IS has artillery, tanks, armor and heavy weapons.

I was talking 10th Mtn.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 07:50 PM
Fair enough. Although IS has artillery, tanks, armor and heavy weapons.

I was talking 10th Mtn.

IS can't really use their heavy weapons well. With the artillery they just point and shoot and hope they hit something. That really don't know how to use them to full effect.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 07:57 PM
IS can't really use their heavy weapons well. With the artillery they just point and shoot and hope they hit something. That really don't know how to use them to full effect.

They are about to take a city of 900,000. That's full effect.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 08:00 PM
They are about to take a city of 900,000. That's full effect.

Not really. They are not fighting very hard for it. The Iraqi military and police are running away- at least not the ones that have been surrounded.

This is not what a professional officer would call a well run military operation. It is ad hoc and only successful due to the incompetence / cowardice of their opposition.

Private Pickle
05-15-2015, 08:02 PM
Not really. They are not fighting very hard for it. The Iraqi military and police are running away- at least not the ones that have been surrounded.

This is not what a professional officer would call a well run military operation. It is ad hoc and only successful due to the incompetence / cowardice of their opposition.

Honestly? If I had those commanders and I was facing IS I would be shitting my pants too. But with American air cover I may be inspired enough to stay and fight like in Mosul.

Peter1469
05-15-2015, 08:11 PM
Takes me back to my often made comment: Arabs don't make good armies in the modern era.

donttread
05-15-2015, 09:11 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/islamic-state-seizes-capital-of-iraq’s-largest-province/ar-BBjP0JY?ocid=ansWashpost11

Ramadi cost 1,300 US lives to defeat Arab militants.

I'll let our self-proclaimed military experts who tell us Isis is no big deal 'splain this one to us.

ISIS can only do what they do due to 40 plus years of western interventionism designed to keep ME governments ( except the Saudis of course) unstable. Too unstable to nationalize Exxon and BP assets for example. However, it turns out that unstable governments , even with soldiers trained by us, are too unstable to control even moderate threats from within. If fact what you are seeing now is the direct result of our interventionism. As is the rise of Arab extremist, the loss of women's rights and the civil wars.

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 09:21 PM
ISIS can only do what they do due to 40 plus years of western interventionism designed to keep ME governments ( except the Saudis of course) unstable. Too unstable to nationalize Exxon and BP assets for example. However, it turns out that unstable governments , even with soldiers trained by us, are too unstable to control even moderate threats from within. If fact what you are seeing now is the direct result of our interventionism. As is the rise of Arab extremist, the loss of women's rights and the civil wars.

Not you again.

I have no sympathy for Muslim wackos.

The fatal flaw here is islam not western enlightenment.

Bob
05-15-2015, 09:29 PM
Had Bush not fumbled the occupation like a mini-T-Rex they would not be in this situation.

When FDR lost 15,000 per day in combat, he was never blamed.

Obama loses men and Bush takes the blame.

Go figure.

del
05-15-2015, 09:30 PM
When FDR lost 15,000 per day in combat, he was never blamed.

Obama loses men and Bush takes the blame.

Go figure.

go back to sleep, sharky

Bob
05-15-2015, 09:35 PM
go back to sleep, sharky


Whats that stuff running out of your nose?

Mac-7
05-15-2015, 09:58 PM
Whats that stuff running out of your nose?

His brains on drugs.

Bob
05-15-2015, 10:03 PM
His brains on drugs.

:grin:

donttread
05-16-2015, 05:58 AM
Not you again.

I have no sympathy for Muslim wackos.

The fatal flaw here is islam not western enlightenment.

You call what we've done in the ME "enlightenment?" Holy shit man!

Mac-7
05-16-2015, 07:03 AM
You call what we've done in the ME "enlightenment?" Holy $#@! man!

I do.

First we discovered oil for them and now we make the Arabs very rich by buying that oil.

Since the end of the colonial period the Middle East has had the opportunity to advance as far as it wanted to.

But islam is a backward and violent religion which is holding them back.

MisterVeritis
05-16-2015, 08:42 AM
Had Bush not fumbled the occupation like a mini-T-Rex they would not be in this situation.
Derangement syndrome?

Obama pulled the troops. He was preening for his base. No one in Ramadi would vote for Obama so what does he care?

MisterVeritis
05-16-2015, 08:44 AM
The simple truth is Obama followed Bush's "exit strategy". Sure $#@! hit the fan in 2011 when we left but Bush would have done the exact same thing.
Simple is right. Bush bought time for Obama. Obama never used it. His base, people like you, are happy. Who cares if hundreds of thousands are murdered. None of the dead would have voted Democrat anyway.

Private Pickle
05-16-2015, 09:53 AM
Derangement syndrome?

Obama pulled the troops. He was preening for his base. No one in Ramadi would vote for Obama so what does he care?

Bush's exit strategy followed to perfection.

Private Pickle
05-16-2015, 09:54 AM
Simple is right. Bush bought time for Obama. Obama never used it. His base, people like you, are happy. Who cares if hundreds of thousands are murdered. None of the dead would have voted Democrat anyway.

I love it when people think I'm the base for Obama. It makes me smile inside.

The Sage of Main Street
05-16-2015, 11:00 AM
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/islamic-state-seizes-capital-of-iraq’s-largest-province/ar-BBjP0JY?ocid=ansWashpost11

Ramadi cost 1,300 US lives to defeat Arab militants.

I'll let our self-proclaimed military experts who tell us Isis is no big deal 'splain this one to us. The Chickenhawks' puppet Iraqi Army took our money and ran. But ISIS is a ragtag gang of psychos. The second-rate but professional Iranian Army can destroy them in both Iraq and Syria. As far as hostility to the United States goes, there is no different between Shiites and Sunnis. So let the Iranians take over and deal with them after they are bled down by the conquest.

Mac-7
05-16-2015, 11:26 AM
The Chickenhawks' puppet Iraqi Army took our money and ran. But ISIS is a ragtag gang of psychos. The second-rate but professional Iranian Army can destroy them in both Iraq and Syria. As far as hostility to the United States goes, there is no different between Shiites and Sunnis. So let the Iranians take over and deal with them after they are bled down by the conquest.

It will not be good for America if Iran takes over Iraq.

Of course Obama is doing nothing and by the time he leaves office it will probably be too late for America to reassert control

Which is so much the worse for us

MisterVeritis
05-16-2015, 01:59 PM
Bush's exit strategy followed to perfection.
Derangement. Clearly derangement.

Obama chose his own path. As do you.

MisterVeritis
05-16-2015, 02:00 PM
I love it when people think I'm the base for Obama. It makes me smile inside.
Wittingly or not you are part of his evil legacy.

Peter1469
05-16-2015, 03:11 PM
Bush's plan included getting a new Status of Forces Agreement and leaving behind a small residual force. Obama directed US negotiators to not seriously negotiate a SOFA, so when there was no deal, he said, Oh well. No deal, we must leave.

donttread
05-16-2015, 03:59 PM
I do.

First we discovered oil for them and now we make the Arabs very rich by buying that oil.

Since the end of the colonial period the Middle East has had the opportunity to advance as far as it wanted to.

But islam is a backward and violent religion which is holding them back.


You are hopelessly addicted to Donkephant shit

Peter1469
05-16-2015, 04:34 PM
Three battalions of Iraqi army troops are setting up to counter attack. This will be interesting.

Mac-7
05-16-2015, 06:19 PM
You are hopelessly addicted to Donkephant $#@!

Or you are so radical that you've completely lost touch with reality.

Private Pickle
05-16-2015, 07:09 PM
Derangement. Clearly derangement.

Obama chose his own path. As do you.

Oh do tell Mr. Truth. How did Obama's plan differ than Bush's?

Bob
05-16-2015, 07:22 PM
Oh do tell Mr. Truth. How did Obama's plan differ than Bush's?

Do you not blame Obama for choosing his own path?

MisterVeritis
05-16-2015, 09:11 PM
Oh do tell Mr. Truth. How did Obama's plan differ than Bush's?
Bush chose to win. Obama chose to lose.

MisterVeritis
05-16-2015, 09:14 PM
Oh do tell Mr. Truth. How did Obama's plan differ than Bush's?
Veritis does not mean truth. Veritas was the goddess of truth. When we chose that name for a business it was because Veritas had already been taken. Very few people know Latin so Veritis worked just fine as a name.

Mac-7
05-16-2015, 10:03 PM
Oh do tell Mr. Truth. How did Obama's plan differ than Bush's?

In results.

Bush won Iraq but obumer lost it to Isis and Iran.

Ivan88
05-17-2015, 12:04 AM
Muhannad Haimour, spokesmen for Anbar’s Gov. Sohaib Alrawi.
“There are many fronts that the Iraqi army is dealing with. It’s not just Ramadi where the fighting is taking place, and so the resources are stretched,” he said. "But we believe that with the help of the international coalition, the situation will improve in the next few days.”

Doesn't he know that the US, in collusion with the Israelis, Saudis and Qatar, is really supporting the terrorists so as to establish "greater Israelistan", even if it has a Muslim flavor?

Peter1469
05-17-2015, 01:36 AM
Muhannad Haimour, spokesmen for Anbar’s Gov. Sohaib Alrawi.
“There are many fronts that the Iraqi army is dealing with. It’s not just Ramadi where the fighting is taking place, and so the resources are stretched,” he said. "But we believe that with the help of the international coalition, the situation will improve in the next few days.”

Doesn't he know that the US, in collusion with the Israelis, Saudis and Qatar, is really supporting the terrorists so as to establish "greater Israelistan", even if it has a Muslim flavor?

Pay attention. Obama don't like the Jooos.

Mac-7
05-17-2015, 10:00 AM
Had Bush not fumbled the occupation like a mini-T-Rex they would not be in this situation.

I agree.

But this is 2015 not 2005 so looking back is not helping us now

donttread
05-17-2015, 10:15 AM
Or you are so radical that you've completely lost touch with reality.

I long ago lost touch with your" reality", thank God

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:04 PM
Wittingly or not you are part of his evil legacy.

:notworthy: You're so smart. I'm not worthy.

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:06 PM
Do you not blame Obama for choosing his own path?

Not on Iraq. He chose Bush's.

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:07 PM
Bush chose to win. Obama chose to lose.

Grade school answer from a blind partisan.

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:08 PM
Veritis does not mean truth. Veritas was the goddess of truth. When we chose that name for a business it was because Veritas had already been taken. Very few people know Latin so Veritis worked just fine as a name.

That's gay...I mean great...

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:08 PM
In results.

Bush won Iraq but obumer lost it to Isis and Iran.

Sigh. Obama followed Bush's exit strategy. If Bush were at the helm the same thing would have happened. Bush's exit strategy was wrong.

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:09 PM
I agree.

But this is 2015 not 2005 so looking back is not helping us now

Yeah. Let's never learn from our mistakes. That's why we have to keep going back...

Peter1469
05-17-2015, 01:09 PM
Sigh. Obama followed Bush's exit strategy. If Bush were at the helm the same thing would have happened. Bush's exit strategy was wrong.

Bush wanted to leave a residual force....

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:10 PM
Bush wanted to leave a residual force....

As Obama did.

Peter1469
05-17-2015, 01:20 PM
As Obama did.

No he didn't. He publicly said that he did. Privately, he told his negotiators to not push for a SOFA.

Mac-7
05-17-2015, 01:22 PM
Sigh. Obama followed Bush's exit strategy. If Bush were at the helm the same thing would have happened. Bush's exit strategy was wrong.

Bush never executed the plan and maybe would not have because plans change depending on circumstances

The loss of Iraq is on obumers head

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 01:29 PM
Whatever you guys want to tell yourself.

MisterVeritis
05-17-2015, 04:53 PM
:notworthy: You're so smart. I'm not worthy.
Tis true. :-)

We agree.

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 04:59 PM
Tis true. :-)

We agree.

Totally bro. Now I gotta run off to my Obama Quilting Club...

Bob
05-17-2015, 05:16 PM
Not on Iraq. He chose Bush's.

He chose. Key word, he chose.

MisterVeritis
05-17-2015, 07:19 PM
Totally bro. Now I gotta run off to my Obama Quilting Club...
Of course you do.

you do realize he won't leave the golf course to participate, don't you?

Captain Obvious
05-17-2015, 07:26 PM
Totally bro. Now I gotta run off to my Obama Quilting Club...

http://kristinshields.typepad.com/photos/quilts/obama-quilt-13.jpg

Private Pickle
05-17-2015, 08:44 PM
Of course you do.

you do realize he won't leave the golf course to participate, don't you?

Fo sho....

Mac-7
05-18-2015, 12:21 AM
Totally bro. Now I gotta run off to my Obama Quilting Club...

For some people time stopped when bush left office,

six years after obumer entered the White House mention any current event and they will start babbling about Bush in 2005.