If you could stop ISIS right now by..................

[texan]

We captured the wife of the accountant for ISIS, if you thought you could uncover information that would destroy them, like hide outs for the leadership, other banking info by water-boarding her and you were the President would you make the order to do it? Knowing you save God knows how many lives.

[Captain Obvious]

lol

[Bo-4]

lol

Tex is on a roll today. ;)

[Polecat]

Some would water board her just for entertainment.

[texan]

That is what I thought democrats in general are ball'less losers..............Won't even answer a question much less make a real decision. But hey remember this the next time that looters are burning and robbing stores don't call them thugs. They are good at this type stuff.

[Redrose]

IS has Ramadi. BHO says they are the JV.

He is so inept, it's almost criminal.

[Safety]

That is what I thought democrats in general are ball'less losers..............Won't even answer a question much less make a real decision. But hey remember this the next time that looters are burning and robbing stores don't call them thugs. They are good at this type stuff.

So, we go from torture to blacks, slow news day?

[GrassrootsConservative]

So, we go from torture to blacks, slow news day?

Why do you associate the terms "looters," "burning," "robbing," and "thugs" with a specific skin color, Safety?

[Safety]

Why do you associate the terms "looters," "burning," "robbing," and "thugs" with a specific skin color, Safety?

The same way some people associate "real Americans" with a specific skin color, GRC.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Using ignorance?

[Safety]

You saying it doesn't happen?

[GrassrootsConservative]

You saying it doesn't happen?

I'm saying it does if they/you are being ignorant.

[Safety]

I'm saying it does if they/you are being ignorant.

Ok, we'll pretend that it was completely benign and that there was no inference to the recent events in Baltimore or ferguson.

C'mon man.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GrassrootsConservative]

You do that, I guess. Whatever floats your boat. All I'm saying is he didn't bring up a skin color. You did. I'm unscathed though.

[Peter1469]

IS has Ramadi. BHO says they are the JV.

He is so inept, it's almost criminal.

They are J/V. But the Iraqi army is broken.

[Mac-7]

I notice that all five libs that responded did not answer the question.

Thats typical of fence sitters who prefer to not be blamed for a decision one way or the other.

For myself I say water board her.

[Peter1469]

I notice that all five libs that responded did not answer the question.

Thats typical of fence sitters who prefer to not be blamed for a decision one way or the other.

For myself I say water board her.

You misuse the word lib like a retarded child misuses words. Why is that?

I doubt that you need to water board her. But your lack of experience in the world is noted.

[donttread]

We captured the wife of the accountant for ISIS, if you thought you could uncover information that would destroy them, like hide outs for the leadership, other banking info by water-boarding her and you were the President would you make the order to do it? Knowing you save God knows how many lives.

Why? So "BAFHA" could rise up and take ISIS's place?

[Mac-7]

You misuse the word lib like a retarded child misuses words. Why is that?

I doubt that you need to water board her. But your lack of experience in the world is noted.

Its a waste of space to break it down to "two liberals, one libertine and two libertarians" when "five libs" is shorter.

particularly since all are basically the same anti conservative, anti republican, anti Christian, pro homosexual crowd with only minor variations.

[Peter1469]

Its a waste of space to break it down to "two liberals, one libertine and two libertarians" when "five libs" is shorter.

particularly since all are basically the same anti conservative, anti republican, anti Christian, pro homosexual crowd with only minor variations.

I am anti-republican. But I am a conservative. And I will treat you like a retarded step child until you get that straight.

[Mac-7]

I am anti-republican. But I am a conservative. And I will treat you like a retarded step child until you get that straight.

You can tell the members of your lib clique what to think but not me.

I never sought your approval so I won't change my opinion because of threats from you.

Everyone knows who and what I mean when I say "libs" and no true conservative on this board has ever complained that I was talking about them.

[Peter1469]

You can tell the members of your lib clique what to think but not me.

I never sought your approval so I won't change my opinion because of threats from you.

Everyone knows who and what I mean when I say "libs" and no true conservative on this board has ever complained that I was talking about them.

You are too stupid to know what a conservative is. Mac.

[Mac-7]

You are too stupid to know what a conservative is. Mac.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure you out.

Libertarians may overlap true conservatives on some issues but in the end you are still a 3 percenter holding down a fence rail.

[Peter1469]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure you out.

Libertarians may overlap true conservatives on some issues but in the end you are still a 3 percenter holding down a fence rail.

lol

[Safety]

You do that, I guess. Whatever floats your boat. All I'm saying is he didn't bring up a skin color. You did. I'm unscathed though.

Yea, that whole "he didn't bring up skin color" holds no water, for it would be the same if someone said "go paint your shed" but they didn't mention your name. You would know exactly who they were referring to.

LoL




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mac-7]

Yea, that whole "he didn't bring up skin color" holds no water, for it would be the same if someone said "go paint your shed" but they didn't mention your name. You would know exactly who they were referring to.



Now that you mention it, most looters are black.

so maybe for white conservatives to even mention the word "looters" could be called hate speech by libs of the liberal persuasion.

[Safety]

Now that you mention it, most looters are black.

so maybe for white conservatives to even mention the word "looters" could be called hate speech by libs of the liberal persuasion.

Did you get a consensus?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mac-7]

Did you get a consensus?



Do you mean did I clear it with Peter before posting my opinion?

No.

I'm not bound by the lib consensus on this board.

[Peter1469]

Do you mean did I clear it with Peter before posting my opinion?

No.

I'm not bound by the lib consensus on this board.

Only retards think that I am a lib. Mac.

[Mac-7]

Only retards think that I am a lib. Mac.

You keep calling me that.

but I'm not trying to earn your approval so bullying me is not going to work.

[Peter1469]

You keep calling me that.

but I'm not trying to earn your approval so bullying me is not going to work.

I am not bullying you. I am correcting your silly error in insisting that I am a lib.

[Mac-7]

I am not bullying you. I am correcting your silly error in insisting that I am a lib.

Liberal, libertine, libertarian.

[MisterVeritis]

IS has Ramadi. BHO says they are the JV.

He is so inept, it's almost criminal.
They may be junior varsity but they are on the same side against the American citizen. The Islamofascism supporter in the White House is their greatest ally.

[Mac-7]

They may be junior varsity but they are on the same side against the American citizen. The Islamofascism supporter in the White House is their greatest ally.

If they are junior varsity what does that say about pres dumbo?

He must be playing Pop Warner League.

[Safety]

I am not bullying you. I am correcting your silly error in insisting that I am a lib.

Just humor him and keep sharp objects out of his reach.

[MisterVeritis]

If they are junior varsity what does that say about pres dumbo?

He must be playing Pop Warner League.
He has the trappings and power that comes with high office. We could eliminate the ISIS threat in a few weeks if their leader was not also our leader.

[Mac-7]

Just humor him and keep sharp objects out of his reach.

Who are we kidding?

If I didn't do it myself libs would use the sharp objects for me.

[texan]

Liberal, libertine, libertarian.

He is not part of the problem he is very reasonable............

[The Xl]

I'll take the other option, leaving the area entirely

[texan]

So, we go from torture to blacks, slow news day?


Still avoiding the real question I see.................Like I said typical and thanks for making my point! Mention race they are all over it.................Liberals live in fantasy land.

[Safety]

Still avoiding the real question I see.................Like I said typical and thanks for making my point! Mention race they are all over it.................Liberals live in fantasy land.

So, you were mentioning race.
GrassrootsConservative


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[southwest88]

We captured the wife of the accountant for ISIS, if you thought you could uncover information that would destroy them, like hide outs for the leadership, other banking info by water-boarding her and you were the President would you make the order to do it? Knowing you save God knows how many lives.

We know how to do this. The FBI has had great success interrogating suspects & prisoners without testing to destruction. Which is unreliable in any event - tortured to extremis, people will eventually say anything to stop the torture, or simply opt to die.

Waterboarding is particularly useless - without extremely close attention & supervision, & expert medical expertise & equipment immediately to hand, the subject is apt to die - or go psychotic - neither condition being conducive to getting any actionable intel. No, if normal interrogation fails, & it's truly a matter of right-now, life-or-death (which I only see in big-budget Hollywood flicks, but maybe I've led a sheltered life), you simply drug the person with the appropriate pharmacopeia. The people who come to enjoy inflicting waterboarding & etc. on hapless prisoners are liabilities to any controlled military or spook agency. & certainly you have to wonder about turning these people loose on civilians & reintegrating them into ordinary reality, once they've had a taste of blood.

[GrassrootsConservative]

So, you were mentioning race.
@GrassrootsConservative (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=478)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He may have been trying to allude to it but you came right out and said it. Anybody can go back and look and see that you equate looting and rioting and burning stuff with black people.

[Safety]

He may have been trying to allude to it but you came right out and said it. Anybody can go back and look and see that you equate looting and rioting and burning stuff with black people.

There was no "alluding" it was pretty blatant. You know it.

[Green Arrow]

I wouldn't torture her no matter how many lives could potentially be saved.

[Ransom]

We know how to do this. The FBI has had great success interrogating suspects & prisoners without testing to destruction. Which is unreliable in any event - tortured to extremis, people will eventually say anything to stop the torture, or simply opt to die.

Waterboarding is particularly useless - without extremely close attention & supervision, & expert medical expertise & equipment immediately to hand, the subject is apt to die - or go psychotic - neither condition being conducive to getting any actionable intel. No, if normal interrogation fails, & it's truly a matter of right-now, life-or-death (which I only see in big-budget Hollywood flicks, but maybe I've led a sheltered life), you simply drug the person with the appropriate pharmacopeia. The people who come to enjoy inflicting waterboarding & etc. on hapless prisoners are liabilities to any controlled military or spook agency. & certainly you have to wonder about turning these people loose on civilians & reintegrating them into ordinary reality, once they've had a taste of blood.

I didn't know they handed out torture degrees, how do you know so much about this?

[Ransom]

I wouldn't torture her no matter how many lives could potentially be saved.

Torture us most days GA, why the sudden heartbeat?

[southwest88]

I didn't know they handed out torture degrees, how do you know so much about this?

When there's nothing much on TV - which is most of the time. Dave Letterman's leaving, The Daily Show will change hands. If they cancel Jeopardy, I'll hardly bother to watch the idiot box @ all. Anyway, it's not hard to keep up - if you read the coverage in a good paper, & read more in-depth. I tend to go to the public library. Here's a short bibliography, if you want to retrace my steps (these are all books):

Chain of Command - the road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib- Seymour M. Hersh, HarperColinsPublishers, NY, NY c 2004. Bad faith, data manipulation, ideological blinders in the W White House, torture, extraordinary renditions, assassination, missed opportunities. 2 maps, Iraq & Afghan. No other illustrations, photos. 367pp, index. Excellent journalist. Lots of info, even this far after the fact. The Looming Tower - Al Qaeda and the road to 9/11- Lawrence Wright, Alfred Knopf, NY, NY, c 2006. 373pp. Photos, maps. List of principal characters, notes, bibliography, index. How thin Al Qaeda was on the ground, poor record in Afghan against the USSR. Training center/logistics/planning for world-wide jihad. Lots of history & background. Lots of personal histories on the leading personalities.
Embedded : a Marine Corps adviser inside the Iraqi army / by Wesley R. Gray. c2009 Naval Institute Press
Subjects


Military assistance, American -- Iraq. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Internal security -- Iraq. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Iraq War, 2003- -- Personal narratives, American. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Iraq -- Armed Forces -- Training of. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

Notes


PART 1. BECOMING AN EMBEDDED MILITARY ADVISER: 1. Guess what? You are going to Iraq ; 2. Culture shock ; 3. Preparing for Combat Adviser duty ; 4. Meeting the Iraqi Army -- PART 2. LEARNING IRAQI ARMY SYSTEMS AND CULTURE: 5. The first fight with the Iraqi Army ; 6. Vacationing with the Iraqi Army ; 7. Jamal in the Swahuts ; 8. Simple things made difficult ; 9. Iraqi payday operations ; 10. Insights on Iraqi culture ; 11. Death operations ; 12. The Iraqi Officer and Enlisted relationship ; 13. Iraqis speak on the nation, region, and military -- PART 3. COMBAT OPERATIONS WITH THE IRAQI ARMY: 14. Operation Nimer ; 15. Mo' leave, mo' problem ; 16. Transitioning to independent operations ; 17. The Combat Operations Center is launched and the mission changes ; 18. Chasing Egyptian insurgents -- PART 4. BETWEEN IRAQ AND A HARD PLACE: 19. Contending with Iraqi culture ; 20. Violence spikes ; 21. Wayn Jundi? (Where are the soldiers") ; 22. Disaster strikes ; 23. Light at the end of the tunnel? -- PART 5. ALL GOOD THINGS MUST COME TO AN END: 24. Civil War and democracy in Iraq ; 25. America never looked so good ; 26. An assessment -- Appendix: U.S. Marine Corps rank structure -- Glossary -- Index.
Includes index.

Lengthviii, 257 p., [16] p. of plates : maps, photos
An excellent primer on operations with the Iraqi Army - v. pessimistic on the likely outcomes for US military intervention. The cultures are too far apart, Iraq too fragmented. We never pursued rebuilding Iraq's economy, reforming their political establishment, rebuilding infrastructure. Their religious & tribal factionalism may have doomed those efforts in any event. But we should have considered that before invading with conventional forces.

The lessons of terror - a history of warfare against civilians: why it has failed and why it will fail again - Caleb Carr, Random House, NYC c 2002. 256pp, no pix, index, bibliography, errata page. A slim volume on terror. Traces history, concludes that terror is v. old, & never works. A good start to the topic.
The majestic twelve : the true story of the most feared combat escort unit in Baghdad / [book]
by Lynch, Jack W., c 2009
Subjects


Lynch, Jack W. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
United States. -- Marine Corps -- Biography. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Iraq War, 2003- -- Personal narratives, American. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Military convoys -- Iraq. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

Notes


Departure and forty-seven dead -- Kirkush and the convoys -- The team forms -- Training -- The fight -- Vorgang -- Deadly April -- Gunfight -- Our own people want us dead -- KBR protects its profits -- Heroes, villains and rockets with your fruit loops -- Where is the enemy? -- The war at home -- Hummers for a week -- Deboda and friends -- Bitter end -- Going home.
Includes index.

Lengthviii, 324 p. : photos, no map
V. interesting, lots of inter-services conflict, officers v. NCOs

Cobra II : the inside story of the invasion and occupation of Iraq / [book]
by[B] Gordon, Michael R., 1951- and Bernard E. Trainor.









Subjects Iraq War, 2003-2011. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Notes Includes bibliographical references and index.
Summary


Informed by access to still-secret documents, interviews with top field commanders, and a review of the military's own internal after-action reports, this is the definitive chronicle of America's invasion and occupation of Iraq--a conflict that could not be lost but one that the United States failed to win decisively. From the Pentagon to the White House to the American command centers in the field, the book reveals the inside story of how the war was actually planned and fought. Drawing on classified United States government intelligence, it traces the interactions among the generals, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and President George W. Bush; provides an account of how Saddam Hussein and his high command developed and prosecuted their war strategy; reconstructs the principal battles from interviews with those who fought them; and documents with precision the failures of American intelligence and the mistakes in administering postwar Iraq. --From publisher description.

Length


xxxii, 603 p. :

[southwest88]

The art of intelligence : lessons from a life in the CIA's clandestine service / Henry A. Crumpton. c 2012
Subjects


Crumpton, Henry A. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
United States. -- Central Intelligence Agency -- Biography. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Intelligence officers -- United States -- Biography. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Intelligence service -- United States. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Intelligence service -- Methodology. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

Notes


Introduction -- Dreaming -- Training -- Recruiting -- Collecting -- Liaising -- Counterterrorism -- Federal Bureau of Investigation -- The Counterterrorism Center[CE1] -- Afghanistan, strategy -- Afghanistan, operations -- Beyond Afghanistan -- Reflecting -- America -- Policy.
Includes index.

Summary


A counterterrorism spy describes his leadership of the campaign that routed al Qaeda and the Taliban in the weeks after the September 11 attacks, offering insight into the ways in which the Afghanistan campaign changed American warfare.

Length 338 p. ; no illus.

V. good on campaign in Afghan, he's hard on the failure of policy in Afghan & ME in general, against AQ specifically - failure to lock down Pakistan, military invasion of Iraq,






Temptations of the West - How to be modern in India, Pakistan, Tibet & beyond - Pankaj Mishra,;Farrar, Straus, NY c 2006. 323pp, no index, no photos, no map. Born in N. India, a travelogue of sorts - his literary & political take on India, etc. He notes the endless problems caused by Pakistan becoming a willing cat's-paw for US & Western military/political intervention in Afghanistan. Pakistan - with Saudi Arabian oil money to back their fundamentalist Wahhabi national sect - foments radical Islam in Afghanistan, the World, & even Pakistan itself - believing that they can control the Talibs & maybe Al Qaeda. V. readable, good discussion of internal Indian politics, history.

Pakistan is probably worth investigating in its own right, but it's depressing reading, I'm sure. Certainly the reality of the place is endless political squabbling & preparation for the ever-looming next war with India. Military coups, mysterious airplane/helo crashes in the remote northwest, assassinations, nukes & missile delivery systems in a country that can't manage water/sewer/power/roads etc. infrastructure. & of course, they skimmed off aid/material/money destined for the mujahedeen during the USSR's incursion, to build up their satrapies & develop nukes. They're doing the same now, with aid & supplies destined for Afghanistan. & they build up what they consider to be friendly Taliban - as if wolves have any allies. & play Robin Hood, holding up/destroying/hijacking NATO & US supply convoys - the real reason we play tag with these puffed-up military uniforms @ all.

All the Shah's men : an American coup and the roots of Middle East terror / Stephen Kinzer.
Subjects


Mosaddeq, Mohammad, -- 1880-1967. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Iran -- Politics and government -- 1941-1979. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
United States -- Relations -- Iran. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Iran -- Relations -- United States. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

Notes


Good evening, Mr. Roosevelt -- Curse this fate -- The last drop of the nation's blood -- A wave of oil -- His master's orders -- Unseen enemies everywhere -- You do not know how evil they are -- An immensely shrewd old man -- Block headed British -- Pull up your socks and get going -- I knew it! : they love me! -- Purring like a giant cat.

[B]Lengthxiii, 258 p., [8] p. of plates :

Good, war on the cheap for Prex Eisenhower. Incredible naiveté from the CinC, CIA, State Dept. (the Dulles bros.) Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA slipped the leash

This is edited down to what's directly related to the question. Plus lots of coverage on newspapers, magazines - sorry, I didn't keep notes on those.

[Ransom]

Torture used since the dawn of man, used by drug gangs, terrorists, Nazis, Huns, Khans, and armies on every continent in every century. To various degrees of success and the reason the tactic has survived.

[Mister D]

Torture used since the dawn of man, used by drug gangs, terrorists, Nazis, Huns, Khans, and armies on every continent in every century. To various degrees of success and the reason the tactic has survived.

Exactly but people will still drag put the old canard that it's unreliable because people will say anything to stop the torture. As if the interrogators aren't aware of that...:rollseyes:

[donttread]

We captured the wife of the accountant for ISIS, if you thought you could uncover information that would destroy them, like hide outs for the leadership, other banking info by water-boarding her and you were the President would you make the order to do it? Knowing you save God knows how many lives.


Could I just charm her into making a sex tape with me and then the ISIS accountant would have to behead himself or something?

[southwest88]

Could I just charm her into making a sex tape with me and then the ISIS accountant would have to behead himself or something?

You're a bit late on that; the husband died in combat (or @ least resisting) when the operators breached the targeted building. (The original mission was to capture him for interrogation, along with any available high-value targets & all the documentation, PCs, hard drives, cell phones, etc. that could be quickly located & seized. Anything & everything that might point to other members of ISIS or related.)

[Beevee]

I notice that all five libs that responded did not answer the question.

Thats typical of fence sitters who prefer to not be blamed for a decision one way or the other.

For myself I say water board her.

You would.

There are far better ways to obtain information but as usual, the US has to tell the world of one of it's rare purported victories. Otherwise, they could have extracted the information they require by cutting off her fingers, each time she refused to co-operate. Then the toes. After that, a red hot poker in each eye.

But now they can't. They have to keep her alive because otherwise there will be too many questions on her whereabouts.

Another epic failure.

And that's my liberal response.

[Green Arrow]

Could I just charm her into making a sex tape with me and then the ISIS accountant would have to behead himself or something?

You should make a note in your will to donate your brain to science when you die. I imagine study of it would yield some interesting information.

[donttread]

You're a bit late on that; the husband died in combat (or @ least resisting) when the operators breached the targeted building. (The original mission was to capture him for interrogation, along with any available high-value targets & all the documentation, PCs, hard drives, cell phones, etc. that could be quickly located & seized. Anything & everything that might point to other members of ISIS or related.)

I didn't think ISIS was a secret organization ? Still I'm willing to try th sex tape thing for good ole uncle Sam. But remember BAFHA are coming!

[kilgram]

My answer to the OP.

The end does not justify the means.

[Ransom]

I've some detailed reads on the German invasion of Russia. I believe most would have laughed in your face with this 'torture don't work' nonsense.

[nic34]

We captured the wife of the accountant for ISIS, if you thought you could uncover information that would destroy them, like hide outs for the leadership, other banking info by water-boarding her and you were the President would you make the order to do it? Knowing you save God knows how many lives.

NO.

You can NEVER believe information you get this way.

Why is this concept so hard for neo-con nuts to understand?

[Ransom]

Could I just charm her into making a sex tape with me and then the ISIS accountant would have to behead himself or something?

You both share a hatred for these United States and blame America first, not sure those charms would work, you could try.

[Ransom]

NO.

You can NEVER believe information you get this way.

Why is this concept so hard for neo-con nuts to understand?

Information has been gotten in this way for centuries, you cannot remain this ignorant forever, you're going to have to read a book someday, Nic.

Like the dentist....you might not like going....you might put it off too long....but you gotta go. You cannot let your teeth decay like your mind, you must feed your brain Nic.

Your friend Ransom one of the best sources of food.

[Beevee]

You would.

There are far better ways to obtain information but as usual, the US has to tell the world of one of it's rare purported victories. Otherwise, they could have extracted the information they require by cutting off her fingers, each time she refused to co-operate. Then the toes. After that, a red hot poker in each eye.

But now they can't. They have to keep her alive because otherwise there will be too many questions on her whereabouts.

Another epic failure.

And that's my liberal response.

An update on this.

CNN is claiming to have been advised that she is talking. Well, the US government doesn't have an option to say that she isn't, do they?

[Redrose]

We captured the wife of the accountant for ISIS, if you thought you could uncover information that would destroy them, like hide outs for the leadership, other banking info by water-boarding her and you were the President would you make the order to do it? Knowing you save God knows how many lives.


Without hesitation. Waterboarding, most people get more water in their face at a water park.

[Common Sense]

Without hesitation. Waterboarding, most people get more water in their face at a water park.

That's ridiculous. Most people at the water park aren't assuming they are being drowned in a dingy basement by guys in masks.

Waterboarding is torture. If people want to throw away any semblance of a moral high ground, go ahead. But let's not pretend that water boarding is anything like a water slide.

[donttread]

Didn't we find out about Saddams "nukes" via wterboarding?

[donttread]

I've some detailed reads on the German invasion of Russia. I believe most would have laughed in your face with this 'torture don't work' nonsense.

Aren't we supposed to be better than that? If were not better than that what's the point of fighting if we are just fighting other evil?

[Ransom]

Aren't we supposed to be better than that? If were not better than that what's the point of fighting if we are just fighting other evil?

No. And why I would implore you to actually read some f'n history. We cut our teeth as Indian fighters. And could use a tomahawk and knife and scalp with the best of Indians. Our Civil War prisons rivaled Nazi death camps, we've a history of slavery and imperialism. We dropped an atomic bomb for Gold's sake, what are you talking about? We are all created equal, Mr Innocent, this country as nasty as they come.

I can only make the analogy to Christianity, as a Christian soldier let there never be any mistake, it is historical fact. Cross off your Jewish faith, your Indian or Asian religions. Islam in whatever form........ the Christians are the kings of slaughter, we Catholics of course on point. It is why I highly recommend anyone wanting to make statements to not target Catholicism. We are the absolute champions of heinous and we'll explain it to you and have throughout history. Don't awaken no sleeping giants and someone get a f'n subscription to knowyouramericanhistory.com for dont read.

[kilgram]

Without hesitation. Waterboarding, most people get more water in their face at a water park.
Hey, why don't we meet a day and we practice waterboarding with you. Surely you enjoy it, if it is as going to park and dive your face in the water.

[MisterVeritis]

NO.

You can NEVER believe information you get this way.

Why is this concept so hard for neo-con nuts to understand?
I think the most important reason is your profound failure to understand how intelligence gathering works. In general we do not torture. But we do make people uncomfortable in clever ways.

So yes, ask her questions and make her uncomfortable. Let's see what happens.

[MisterVeritis]

Didn't we find out about Saddams "nukes" via wterboarding?
I would be interested in seeing your sources for such a statement. It seems very unlikely.

[MisterVeritis]

Aren't we supposed to be better than that? If were not better than that what's the point of fighting if we are just fighting other evil?
I suppose it depends on what you mean. Having a "Holier than Thou" attitude will not win many wars. Nor is it likely to keep us safe and free in the presence of a very great evil.

[MisterVeritis]

That's ridiculous. Most people at the water park aren't assuming they are being drowned in a dingy basement by guys in masks.

Waterboarding is torture. If people want to throw away any semblance of a moral high ground, go ahead. But let's not pretend that water boarding is anything like a water slide.
We can disagree. We can also agree that we are going to disagree. It is unpleasant.

[Green Arrow]

Without hesitation. Waterboarding, most people get more water in their face at a water park.
Redrose, if it's nothing serious at all and no different than getting a little water splashed on your face, then why is it so effective at getting information? If it's so silly even a child could deal with it, wouldn't anyone being waterboarded just laugh in our faces?

[Peter1469]

It is not the water-boarding per se, but the psychological prep for it.

[Redrose]

@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123), if it's nothing serious at all and no different than getting a little water splashed on your face, then why is it so effective at getting information? If it's so silly even a child could deal with it, wouldn't anyone being waterboarded just laugh in our faces?


Have you ever been to a water park? You float under waterfalls, flip in flumes, shoot water in faces and get shot at too with water cannons. The difference? You are in control in the park, in a torture event you don't know when it will stop. That's why it is effective. That type of torture is OK by me if it helps to save lives. I am against torture where people are maimed or mutilated or anything that causes bleeding or death.

The point I made was while it is terrifying for the person being waterboarded, it won't have any long lasting effects, no more than a good day at a water park.

[texan]

I don't see why liberals are so against it on one hand and then support a baby in the moms stomach being jabbed in the head at 6 months when a mothers health is not in jeopardy. I support waterboarding the asshole and saving the kid.

[Green Arrow]

I'm against it because it can't be justified by my religious teachings. Quite the opposite.

[MisterVeritis]

@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123), if it's nothing serious at all and no different than getting a little water splashed on your face, then why is it so effective at getting information? If it's so silly even a child could deal with it, wouldn't anyone being waterboarded just laugh in our faces?
It can be very unpleasant. Friends are not simulating your drowning. Your enemies are.

Once you decide to give up and cooperate many things are possible.

[texan]

I'm against it because it can't be justified by my religious teachings. Quite the opposite.


Alright I was being a little harsh, you are a good Catholic ( I think that is what you posted)..........Religious or not tho just saying!!!!! It was to make a point, you can bet no democrat here that only posts talking points will address this point.

[donttread]

No. And why I would implore you to actually read some f'n history. We cut our teeth as Indian fighters. And could use a tomahawk and knife and scalp with the best of Indians. Our Civil War prisons rivaled Nazi death camps, we've a history of slavery and imperialism. We dropped an atomic bomb for Gold's sake, what are you talking about? We are all created equal, Mr Innocent, this country as nasty as they come.

I can only make the analogy to Christianity, as a Christian soldier let there never be any mistake, it is historical fact. Cross off your Jewish faith, your Indian or Asian religions. Islam in whatever form........ the Christians are the kings of slaughter, we Catholics of course on point. It is why I highly recommend anyone wanting to make statements to not target Catholicism. We are the absolute champions of heinous and we'll explain it to you and have throughout history. Don't awaken no sleeping giants and someone get a f'n subscription to knowyouramericanhistory.com for dont read.

So we cannot evolve as a culture? Praise the lord, kiss the Pope's ass and pass the torture tools?

[Ransom]

So we cannot evolve as a culture? Praise the lord, kiss the Pope's ass and pass the torture tools?

You tell me if we can evolve as a culture, just don't be cluelessly going on about how America is supposedly better than that. We have ended slavery, does that prevent ewe shameless leftists from crying racist every time someone sneezes? We just elected a President.....twice...who couldn't manage a bowel movement much less manage world crisis or the US economy, but he could read a teleprompter.

Americans elected Thomas Jefferson. They elected Abraham Lincoln. Our ancestors wrote the Bill of Rights, wrote our Constitution, elected George Washington as first POTUS....and you believe we've evolved? You look to our modern culture and the decay and death, our inner cities on fire, our economy stagnant, go look at the motivations of our youth today, our education system.

Then ask "can't we evolve" again, donttread. You look so....aware of subject matter when you do so.

[Ransom]

By a margin of almost 2 to 1 — 59 percent to 31 percent — those interviewed said that they support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying that they produced valuable intelligence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

[southwest88]

Have you ever been to a water park? You float under waterfalls, flip in flumes, shoot water in faces and get shot at too with water cannons. The difference? You are in control in the park, in a torture event you don't know when it will stop. That's why it is effective. That type of torture is OK by me if it helps to save lives. I am against torture where people are maimed or mutilated or anything that causes bleeding or death.

The point I made was while it is terrifying for the person being waterboarded, it won't have any long lasting effects, no more than a good day at a water park.

Other than the occasional - possibly unfortunate - death. How many suspects or targets of individual vendettas or merely unlucky bystanders did we - or our proxies - manage to kill in this manner? (When you're handing out cash bounties, no questions asked - because typically we couldn't - we were @ the mercy of translators, who might have their own agenda - old scores to even up, or even just a cut of the proceeds - you know, in order to be more productive). But of course, for the True Believer, this life is a mere prelude to the greater life yet to come, yes? So what if we - unavoidably, unfortunately, no blame attaches to us, nuh uh - killed a few people who may or may not have been guilty of anything @ all? A few dozens, a few hundred, a few thousand? It's not like life means much to those savages, wherever they may be.

The irony being that a jihadist True Believer would agree with this statement of purpose, possibly more readily than a Christian True Believer. Something to think about, I suppose. But be of good cheer! If you manage to fall afoul of benighted authorities, you too may enjoy the privilege:

"Use by law enforcement

"In 1981 Texas sheriff James Parker and three of his deputies were convicted for conspiring to force confessions. The complaint said they "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning".[117] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-wallach20071104-117) The sheriff was sentenced to ten years in prison, and the deputies to four years.[117] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-wallach20071104-117)[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-nprweiner20071103-125)"

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Contemporary_use_and_the_United_Stat es

Just another day @ the park ...

[southwest88]

By a margin of almost 2 to 1 — 59 percent to 31 percent — those interviewed said that they support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying that they produced valuable intelligence.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

Ah, the WA Post - with their record of high regard for the Truth (brother!) - I'd rally 'round the flag too, & pray that no one moved the curtain aside. Stop that dog, you! See http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/07/washington-post-memory-holes-jessica-lynch.html

"Washington Post memory holes Jessica Lynch (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/07/washington-post-memory-holes-jessica-lynch.html) "Saturday, July 07, 2012 (http://www.blackfive.net/main/2012/07/washington-post-memory-holes-jessica-lynch.html)

"The Washington Post was one of the major players in creating the myth that Jessica Lynch was one of the first heroes of the Iraq War. They ran this story on their front page based on faulty reporting and incorrect information they developed. The military did not participate this and actually told them they had no information to corroborate it.
http://www.blackfive.net/.a/6a00d8341bfadb53ef0177431eb545970d-500wi (http://www.blackfive.net/.a/6a00d8341bfadb53ef0177431eb545970d-pi)
"Jessica Lynch's unit was ambushed and she was in a pretty bad vehicle crash as they tried to get away. That's it. The rest is chatter and fog of war gossip the Post ran as front page headlines. Ms. Lynch did nothing wrong and is simply a soldier caught in the media crosshairs. The Post found out not much later that they had been spectacularly incorrect in their reporting and insrtead of owning up to th efact that they got it worng, they blamed the military for not fact-checking them.

"Now you can't even read the embarrasingly inaccurate piece on their website, even as they complain about other outlets digitally scrubbing their own mistakes (http://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2012/04/27/digitally-scrubbing-wapos-embarrassment-on-jessica-lynch/). They don't seem too concerned about fixing that either (http://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/10-weeks-on-still-no-word-from-wapo-about-apparent-digital-scrubbing-of-lynch-articles/).

"The botched hero-warrior story (http://mediamythalert.wordpress.com/2011/08/22/recalling-who-gave-us-the-manufactured-heroism-of-jessica-lynch/) is unavailable at the Post’s online site. Until a few weeks ago, clicking on a link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14879-2003Apr2) to that report did turn up the story’s headline, byline, and publication detail (http://mediamythalert.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/wapo_lynch_screengrab_no-text.pdf). But otherwise, it was an empty link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14879-2003Apr2): It contained no content.


"Now, not even the headline, byline, and publication date are available. The link opens to a page that declares in large headlines: “Page Not Found” and “We’re unable to locate the page you requested.” "

(My emphasis - more details @ the URL)

& so it goes. Yah, I'm sure lots of US citizens approve in principle of frying suspects, detainees, pretty much anyone that scares us - until they're well-done. Men, women, children. Their soldiers, officers, camels, pets - anyone & anything.

When our media shamelessly lie to us though - the gloves come off. Slaughtering people left & right is not how you build an empire - there has to be some rational selection of targets. The weasels of the mass media too often don't know the business end of a rifle from the social end - & we're supposed to take their word on high strategy?

[Ransom]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/

[MisterVeritis]

Other than the occasional - possibly unfortunate - death. How many suspects or targets of individual vendettas or merely unlucky bystanders did we - or our proxies - manage to kill in this manner? (When you're handing out cash bounties, no questions asked - because typically we couldn't - we were @ the mercy of translators, who might have their own agenda - old scores to even up, or even just a cut of the proceeds - you know, in order to be more productive). But of course, for the True Believer, this life is a mere prelude to the greater life yet to come, yes? So what if we - unavoidably, unfortunately, no blame attaches to us, nuh uh - killed a few people who may or may not have been guilty of anything @ all? A few dozens, a few hundred, a few thousand? It's not like life means much to those savages, wherever they may be.

The irony being that a jihadist True Believer would agree with this statement of purpose, possibly more readily than a Christian True Believer. Something to think about, I suppose. But be of good cheer! If you manage to fall afoul of benighted authorities, you too may enjoy the privilege:

"Use by law enforcement

"In 1981 Texas sheriff James Parker and three of his deputies were convicted for conspiring to force confessions. The complaint said they "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning".[117] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-wallach20071104-117) The sheriff was sentenced to ten years in prison, and the deputies to four years.[117] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-wallach20071104-117)[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-nprweiner20071103-125)"

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Contemporary_use_and_the_United_Stat es (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Contemporary_use_and_the_United_Stat es)

Just another day @ the park ...
You raised the question "how many people have we killed through waterboarding?"

Do you have an answer?

[Green Arrow]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/


The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

An excellent sign of how our society is decaying.

[donttread]

You tell me if we can evolve as a culture, just don't be cluelessly going on about how America is supposedly better than that. We have ended slavery, does that prevent ewe shameless leftists from crying racist every time someone sneezes? We just elected a President.....twice...who couldn't manage a bowel movement much less manage world crisis or the US economy, but he could read a teleprompter.

Americans elected Thomas Jefferson. They elected Abraham Lincoln. Our ancestors wrote the Bill of Rights, wrote our Constitution, elected George Washington as first POTUS....and you believe we've evolved? You look to our modern culture and the decay and death, our inner cities on fire, our economy stagnant, go look at the motivations of our youth today, our education system.

Then ask "can't we evolve" again, donttread. You look so....aware of subject matter when you do so.

I'm sorry I can't seem to find the part where your post is related to mine.

[Ransom]

An excellent sign of how our society is decaying.

Then there are your posts to settle the issue for good. Decaying is true.

[Ransom]

I'm sorry I can't seem to find the part where your post is related to mine.

You asked 'aren't we better' your arrogance supreme by asking. The answer is no, we are no better. And I'd suggest our enemies understand as well. We will come find you, break every international law in doing so. Like Saddam. Like KSM. Like your arguments on this forum....... they'll be removed from the record.

[Ransom]

You raised the question "how many people have we killed through waterboarding?"

Do you have an answer?

Then ask him how upset he is concerning Obama's drone strike killing an American Citizen. And you'll quickly realize his misinformed argument is trumped only by his naivety concerning Obama's tactics. The Obama he voted for. Twice.

And another f'n.....oops.

[kilgram]

You tell me if we can evolve as a culture, just don't be cluelessly going on about how America is supposedly better than that. We have ended slavery, does that prevent ewe shameless leftists from crying racist every time someone sneezes? We just elected a President.....twice...who couldn't manage a bowel movement much less manage world crisis or the US economy, but he could read a teleprompter.

Americans elected Thomas Jefferson. They elected Abraham Lincoln. Our ancestors wrote the Bill of Rights, wrote our Constitution, elected George Washington as first POTUS....and you believe we've evolved? You look to our modern culture and the decay and death, our inner cities on fire, our economy stagnant, go look at the motivations of our youth today, our education system.

Then ask "can't we evolve" again, donttread. You look so....aware of subject matter when you do so.
Because racism is there among conservative. Plus typical sexism and homphoby of your fellow conservative.

[OGIS]

So, we go from torture to blacks, slow news day?

Or something to do with 15 minutes of fame and feeling needy?

(I'm JUST asking questions here!)

[OGIS]

Using ignorance?

Paid False Flag Trolls?

"Where did you go on the Internet today, Johnny?"
"I went to chat rooms and news feed discussions, Mommy."
"And what did you you learn?"
"That all conservatives are apparently ignorant, racist, stupid, gun-loving violent a$$holes, Mommy."

Paid False Flag Trolls.

[OGIS]

Its a waste of space to break it down to "two liberals, one libertine and two libertarians" when "five libs" is shorter.

particularly since all are basically the same anti conservative, anti republican, anti Christian, pro homosexual crowd with only minor variations.

Stereotype much?

[Common Sense]

Stereotype much?

It's really his only talent.

[OGIS]

You can tell the members of your lib clique what to think but not me.

I never sought your approval so I won't change my opinion because of threats from you.

Everyone knows who and what I mean when I say "libs" and no true conservative on this board has ever complained that I was talking about them.

ZOMG, you actually used the "No True Scotsman" fallacy? Really? Seriously? LOL!

[OGIS]

Liberal, libertine, libertarian.

Now I KNOW you're just trolling. Or delusional. Associating concepts with each other based on similarity of spellings and of root words? Seriously, dude, that's.... magical, medievalist thinking.

[OGIS]

I didn't know they handed out torture degrees, how do you know so much about this?

He could tell you, but then he would have to kill you.

[OGIS]

Aren't we supposed to be better than that? If were not better than that what's the point of fighting if we are just fighting other evil?

Precisely.

[OGIS]

No. And why I would implore you to actually read some f'n history. We cut our teeth as Indian fighters. And could use a tomahawk and knife and scalp with the best of Indians. Our Civil War prisons rivaled Nazi death camps, we've a history of slavery and imperialism. We dropped an atomic bomb for Gold's sake, what are you talking about? We are all created equal, Mr Innocent, this country as nasty as they come.

I can only make the analogy to Christianity, as a Christian soldier let there never be any mistake, it is historical fact. Cross off your Jewish faith, your Indian or Asian religions. Islam in whatever form........ the Christians are the kings of slaughter, we Catholics of course on point. It is why I highly recommend anyone wanting to make statements to not target Catholicism. We are the absolute champions of heinous and we'll explain it to you and have throughout history. Don't awaken no sleeping giants and someone get a f'n subscription to knowyouramericanhistory.com for dont read.

All true, unfortunately.

Too bad you apparently aspire to nothing more moral and noble.

[OGIS]

I don't see why liberals are so against it on one hand and then support a baby in the moms stomach being jabbed in the head at 6 months when a mothers health is not in jeopardy. I support waterboarding the $#@! and saving the kid.

I remember when conservatives used to argue in context and from logic, facts and reason.

[OGIS]

Once you decide to give up and cooperate many things are possible.

Wait, are we talking about waterboarding, or what passes for everyday life in the Land of the Slave and Home of the Craven?

The problem for many is that when you "buy in" the bastards whip the football away from your foot.

Charles Shultz was a subversive.

[OGIS]

You tell me if we can evolve as a culture, just don't be cluelessly going on about how America is supposedly better than that. We have ended slavery, does that prevent ewe shameless leftists from crying racist every time someone sneezes?

Your blinders are still in place. I've been privileged middle class white guy and I've been homeless. And I have personally seen from the gutter perspective how police, for example, treat blacks and whites differently. Racism is alive and well, and many can not see it precisely because they are surrounded by it.


We just elected a President.....twice...who couldn't manage a bowel movement much less manage world crisis or the US economy, but he could read a teleprompter.

Selective memory? Who would you rate worse: Grant, or Harding, or Carter or Obama?


Americans elected Thomas Jefferson. They elected Abraham Lincoln. Our ancestors wrote the Bill of Rights, wrote our Constitution, elected George Washington as first POTUS....and you believe we've evolved? You look to our modern culture and the decay and death, our inner cities on fire, our economy stagnant, go look at the motivations of our youth today, our education system.

Are you actually proud that you wrote that piece of intellectual fluff?


Then ask "can't we evolve" again, donttread. You look so....aware of subject matter when you do so.

Veiled ad hominem so lacks the honesty of just bellowing out, across the playground, "YOU DOODY!!!!"

[MisterVeritis]

Because racism is there among conservative. Plus typical sexism and homphoby of your fellow conservative.
I know that American English is not your primary language. It is clear you speak authoritarian statism. According the the Authoritarian statist playbook conservatives are racist, sexist and homophobic. It matters little that the goofy charge is not true.