Poor Aren't Poor Because Rich Are Rich

[Chris]

Another simple economic truth: Wealth is not a fixed pie, it must be generated.

Poor Aren't Poor Because Rich Are Rich (http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2008/11/poor_arent_poor_because_rich_a.html)


...Judged only by economic inequality, the financial crisis is a godsend. It will probably narrow the gap — though still vast — between the rich and everybody else. But what good will that do? Economic inequality also declined in the Great Depression. The country wasn't better off.

By and large, the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich. They're usually poor for their own reasons: family breakdown, low skills, destructive personal habits and plain bad luck.

The presumption implicit in the criticism of growing economic inequality is that society's income is a given and, if the rich have less, others will have more. Up to a point, that's true. The government already redistributes much income, often for the good.

...But the redistributionist argument is at best a half-truth. The larger truth is that much of the income of the rich and well-to-do comes from what they do. If they stop doing it, then the income and wealth vanish. No one gets it. It can't be redistributed because it doesn't exist. Everyone's poorer....

[Green Arrow]

Pie has to be prepared and cooked.

Just sayin'.

[Hal Jordan]

Mmmmm... Pie...

[Polecat]

It don't really matter. When the cork blows the rich will be targeted and I expect it to be gruesome. The panic rooms and underground shelters will be sealed shut from the outside and privilege will turn into a liability.

[kilgram]

Yeah, it is fault of the victim. Typical liberal thinking :)

Seriously, it is done from the beginning of the Liberalism. In the XIX century already you said it.

Ah, also another thing that it is not mentioned, strange: the poor are poor because they are lazy. Another mantra repeated ad nauseanum from the XIX century.

[Chris]

Pie has to be prepared and cooked.

Just sayin'.

Metaphor for wealth generation?

[Chris]

Yeah, it is fault of the victim. Typical liberal thinking :)

Seriously, it is done from the beginning of the Liberalism. In the XIX century already you said it.

Ah, also another thing that it is not mentioned, strange: the poor are poor because they are lazy. Another mantra repeated ad nauseanum from the XIX century.



Huh? Nothing is said in the OP about blaming victims, not even remotely the point.

[Green Arrow]

Metaphor for wealth generation?

Well, you said wealth isn't a pie, it has to be generated. I'm just sayin', pie has to be generated too :tongue:

[Bob]

Yeah, it is fault of the victim. Typical liberal thinking :)

Seriously, it is done from the beginning of the Liberalism. In the XIX century already you said it.

Ah, also another thing that it is not mentioned, strange: the poor are poor because they are lazy. Another mantra repeated ad nauseanum from the XIX century.

If i say there is talent to very very good music, or art or science, no doubt you agree.

But there is also talent to having abundance. In the USA,. at the moment, due to Government crackdowns, it is harder to get rich. But some paths to wealth are open and the talented figure it out.

Education helps talent. Most Left wingers plan to hold back the aspiring wealthy and are loath to teach good systems to the public.

Just think had Obama came out with how to gain wealth systems. But he rails against the rich.

[magicmike]

Aren't most rich that way from inheritance?

[Chris]

Well, you said wealth isn't a pie, it has to be generated. I'm just sayin', pie has to be generated too :tongue:

And some of it traded for the a la mode and coffee which also generates wealth.

http://i.snag.gy/gOC2x.jpg

[Chris]

Aren't most rich that way from inheritance?

Actually no. But that's not the point either.

[Green Arrow]

And some of it traded for the a la mode and coffee which also generates wealth.

http://i.snag.gy/gOC2x.jpg

Blech, coffee. I'd rather have tea, but absolutely give it to me a la mode.

[Chris]

Blech, coffee. I'd rather have tea, but absolutely give it to me a la mode.

Sure, whatever you value more. I think I'd take a big cold glass of cold milk.

[The Xl]

Most of the poor are poor because of policies and economics that contribute to the rich becoming and staying rich

[Chris]

Most of the poor are poor because of policies and economics that contribute to the rich becoming and staying rich

There is definitely that, the rich are protected, the poor kept down, and lately, the middle class left by the wayside.

Another element is the banks printing inflationary money. See first minute or so of...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6T83PnakgQ&feature=youtu.be

[kilgram]

Huh? Nothing is said in the OP about blaming victims, not even remotely the point.
By and large, the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich. They're usually poor for their own reasons: family breakdown, low skills, destructive personal habits and plain bad luck.

[Chris]

By and large, the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich. They're usually poor for their own reasons: family breakdown, low skills, destructive personal habits and plain bad luck.






Yes, so, no one mentioned laziness. The attributes mentions do lead to poverty. Being fatherless leaves one without a role model. Being unskilled you don't get paid much. Drug addicts find it hard to keep a job. And sometimes it's just plain hard luck. None of the blame, well, maybe drug addiction.

Note that other causes are mentioned in the OP and in the thread.

But the point is still the rich being rich isn't the cause of the poor being poor.

[The Xl]

The system breeds laziness. Incentive isn't there when you know the American dream is largely bullshit for many

[Bob]

Most of the poor are poor because of policies and economics that contribute to the rich becoming and staying rich

You are blaming Government.

It starts out in grade school and proceeds into high school.

I have a smart grandson who was shamed by the global warming bozos into riding his bicycle all the time. He rides up to 100 miles on one trip. Saturday he rode 77 miles for a family gathering.

I told him.... pay attention not to words. Study deeds. When they told us CA was going to suffer Global warming, the Democrats refused for many many years to take action. Limiting CO2 does not help stop global warming. Changing cars won't produce rains, snows nor solve water problems.

Democrats talk a good game, but they know they are lying.

[kilgram]

Yes, so, no one mentioned laziness. The attributes mentions do lead to poverty. Being fatherless leaves one without a role model. Being unskilled you don't get paid much. Drug addicts find it hard to keep a job. And sometimes it's just plain hard luck. None of the blame, well, maybe drug addiction.

Note that other causes are mentioned in the OP and in the thread.

But the point is still the rich being rich isn't the cause of the poor being poor.
Yes, the laziness was not mentioned, and I said that it was strange it was not mentioned.

I disagree with the tesis, but I am tired and I am going to bed. Today has been a hard day.

If I am in the mood and I have time, tomorrow and it is alive (active) I am going to try to explain why I disagree with it.

But what I wanted to point it is that argument is not new. It has been repeated for more than a century. I've read some books from the XIX century that already mentioned this argumentation.

[zelmo1234]

Huh? Nothing is said in the OP about blaming victims, not even remotely the point.

NO the left had to get the Victim into the conversation quickly. Because they have no answers.

Not one can tell me what the rich are doing that is preventing the Poor and middle class from earning more money?

[zelmo1234]

It don't really matter. When the cork blows the rich will be targeted and I expect it to be gruesome. The panic rooms and underground shelters will be sealed shut from the outside and privilege will turn into a liability.

The funny part is, the wealthy are the ones holding the keys and they can hold out much longer than the poor by shutting down the system, If the poor react with violence then the rich will go quickly and the poor will actually starve to death.

There is a reason the rich people are rich, they know how to get things done, and there is a reason that poor people are poor.

Look as Sage for an example. He is a smart guy, but refuses to work, he is not going to submit to the system. So he is one of the have not's

[zelmo1234]

Aren't most rich that way from inheritance?

Actually it is just the opposite, at one point nearly 80% of millionaires were first generation.

[zelmo1234]

Most of the poor are poor because of policies and economics that contribute to the rich becoming and staying rich

Like what? What are the things that you believe are really making it so the rich stay rich, there are several of them, I just would like to know what you think is happening?

[The Xl]

Like what? What are the things that you believe are really making it so the rich stay rich, there are several of them, I just would like to know what you think is happening?
Like a ton of money being pumped into the stock market, inflating the currency to prop up the rich

[zelmo1234]

The system breeds laziness. Incentive isn't there when you know the American dream is largely bull$#@! for many

Only because they are taught that it is not available to them. To change this nothing more is needed that to get rid of the thinking that you have no chance. everyone has the opportunity to improve their lot in life, but it takes work.

[zelmo1234]

Like a ton of money being pumped into the stock market, inflating the currency to prop up the rich

Exactly and this is because the left does not want to do what is necessary to make real capital into the market.

They will not do what is necessary to create the environment for business to expand! And that is because they will not admit that their ideology is wrong

[Cigar]

What Goes Around, Comes Around :grin:

[Peter1469]

Aren't most rich that way from inheritance?

Not in the United States.

[Archer0915]

Another simple economic truth: Wealth is not a fixed pie, it must be generated.

Poor Aren't Poor Because Rich Are Rich (http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2008/11/poor_arent_poor_because_rich_a.html)

Agree! Though rich is relative and there is not much one can "DO" to get rich.

On ca, however, do something about being poor!

Poor stewardship is one thing that keeps people broke. New cars all the time... I mean hey nothing wrong with that but don't bitch about not having anything when you stay car broke.

There again poor is also relative.

Do you call yourself poor if... What? No food? No home? No top of the line home entertainment system? No new PC? Oh no BMW!

[zelmo1234]

Agree! Though rich is relative and there is not much one can "DO" to get rich.

On ca, however, do something about being poor!

Poor stewardship is one thing that keeps people broke. New cars all the time... I mean hey nothing wrong with that but don't $#@! about not having anything when you stay car broke.

There again poor is also relative.

Do you call yourself poor if... What? No food? No home? No top of the line home entertainment system? No new PC? Oh no BMW!

If you manage money correctly, then there is a lot that you can do to become rich. But it is not easy, and there is a sacrifice to it as well.

But as you said people get into debt and become slaves to there own stuff.

[Archer0915]

If you manage money correctly, then there is a lot that you can do to become rich. But it is not easy, and there is a sacrifice to it as well.

But as you said people get into debt and become slaves to there own stuff.

Rich is relative...

I personally know very few people that have it better than my family.

[Chris]

The system breeds laziness. Incentive isn't there when you know the American dream is largely bullshit for many

Welfare can offer more for doing less, both social and corporate.

[zelmo1234]

Rich is relative...

I personally know very few people that have it better than my family.

That is true in many cases. though I can tell you that many rich people are not very open about it.

But I can tell you that I don't know many people that put as much effort into there business, as I did when I was building it. Now it has grown to the point where I am in a supervisor roll. Not near as much fun

[The Xl]

Welfare can offer more for doing less, both social and corporate.

Well sure. If you're poor and know you have no upside in the system, why break your back when you have no upward mobility anyway? Things will change as soon as the system changes.

[Chris]

If you manage money correctly, then there is a lot that you can do to become rich. But it is not easy, and there is a sacrifice to it as well.

But as you said people get into debt and become slaves to there own stuff.


Rich is relative...

I personally know very few people that have it better than my family.


It is because rich and poor are relative that one has so-called income mobility, while the rich can fail and fall, the por can succeed and climb, individually. In terms of classes there will always be a rich and a poor because it is relative. Moreover, because it is relative, the solution offered by many a liberal progressive to tax wealth away may remove the top 1% only to have it replaced by the next.

[zelmo1234]

Well sure. If you're poor and know you have no upside in the system, why break your back when you have no upward mobility anyway? Things will change as soon as the system changes.

Why would a person in this country have NO upward mobility?

[Chris]

Well sure. If you're poor and know you have no upside in the system, why break your back when you have no upward mobility anyway? Things will change as soon as the system changes.

Depends on how you look at it. If you look at it terms of static classes, one can say the gap is widening never to be crossed. But if, as economist Thomas Sowell suggests, you look at it in terms of individuals you will see that the rich do fail and the poor do climb.

[The Xl]

Why would a person in this country have NO upward mobility?

How many poor people ever break through a class? It doesn't happen, between inflation and a pay to play system, among other things, they're usually stuck in their situation, outside of an anomaly here and there.

[The Xl]

Depends on how you look at it. If you look at it terms of static classes, one can say the gap is widening never to be crossed. But if, as economist Thomas Sowell suggests, you look at it in terms of individuals you will see that the rich do fail and the poor do climb.

While their are indeed individuals that move up and down, the general trend is the rich accumulating more wealth, the middle class shrinking, and the poor having no upward mobility and stuck on entitlements.

[PattyHill]

Huh? Nothing is said in the OP about blaming victims, not even remotely the point.

From the op:



By and large, the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich. They're usually poor for their own reasons: family breakdown, low skills, destructive personal habits and plain bad luck.

[zelmo1234]

How many poor people ever break through a class? It doesn't happen, between inflation and a pay to play system, among other things, they're usually stuck in their situation, outside of an anomaly here and there.

I did, the best year that my Dad ever had in his live was just over 20K and we had 3 kids, my Mom stayed at home.

I know lots of people that make it, as a matter of fact people move up and down the ladder all the time.

The problem is! The liberal education system, by design is trying to convince students that they are victims and that wealthy people have stole the money from them, and they have NO chance of ever making anything of themselves.

This is not as accident, it is designed and the results are plain to see. The poor people vote for Democrats that do Nothing for them.

[Chris]

While their are indeed individuals that move up and down, the general trend is the rich accumulating more wealth, the middle class shrinking, and the poor having no upward mobility and stuck on entitlements.

True only if you look at the rich and poor as static classes and not the dynamics of individual mobility.

Economic Mobility (http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2013/03/06/economic-mobility-n1525556/page/full)


...Those "social scientists," journalists and others who are committed to the theory that social barriers keep people down often cite statistics showing that the top income brackets receive a disproportionate and growing share of the country's income.

But the very opposite conclusion arises in studies that follow actual flesh-and-blood individuals over time, most of whom move up across the various income brackets with the passing years. Most working Americans who were initially in the bottom 20 percent of income-earners, rise out of that bottom 20 percent. More of them end up in the top 20 percent than remain in the bottom 20 percent.

People who were initially in the bottom 20 percent in income have had the highest rate of increase in their incomes, while those who were initially in the top 20 percent have had the lowest. This is the direct opposite of the pattern found when following income brackets over time, rather than following individual people.

Most of the media publicize what is happening to the statistical brackets -- especially that "top one percent" -- rather than what is happening to individual people.

We should be concerned with the economic fate of flesh-and-blood human beings, not waxing indignant over the fate of abstract statistical brackets. Unless, of course, we are hustling for an expansion of the welfare state.

[PattyHill]

Actually it is just the opposite, at one point nearly 80% of millionaires were first generation.


http://www.demos.org/blog/1/21/14/reality-wealthy-inherit-ungodly-sums-money

[Chris]

From the op:

That's not blame. Those are facts that keep people in poverty. As this thread attests there are other factors as well.

[zelmo1234]

While their are indeed individuals that move up and down, the general trend is the rich accumulating more wealth, the middle class shrinking, and the poor having no upward mobility and stuck on entitlements.

Actually the numbers show that the percentage of poor in the country has remain very close to the same over the last 60 years and the middle class is indeed shrinking? If the poor is about the same, where are they going.

About 80% of Millionaires are first generation.

I have 2 questions

#1 Why can't the poor get off the entitlement programs

#2 What do you think that the rich are doing that is preventing the poor from becoming rich?

[PattyHill]

It is because rich and poor are relative that one has so-called income mobility, while the rich can fail and fall, the por can succeed and climb, individually. In terms of classes there will always be a rich and a poor because it is relative. Moreover, because it is relative, the solution offered by many a liberal progressive to tax wealth away may remove the top 1% only to have it replaced by the next.

I don't feel like looking it up right now, but social mobility in the US has never been very good, if I remember the articles I've read about it.

[Chris]

I don't feel like looking it up right now, but social mobility in the US has never been very good, if I remember the articles I've read about it.

See post #44.

[PattyHill]

Actually the numbers show that the percentage of poor in the country has remain very close to the same over the last 60 years and the middle class is indeed shrinking? If the poor is about the same, where are they going.

About 80% of Millionaires are first generation.

I have 2 questions

#1 Why can't the poor get off the entitlement programs

#2 What do you think that the rich are doing that is preventing the poor from becoming rich?

how about a link re your millionaire statistic?

[zelmo1234]

http://www.demos.org/blog/1/21/14/reality-wealthy-inherit-ungodly-sums-money

http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/millionaire-myth-busters/

Yes there are people that inherit money, My family will inherit money upon my death, and that should build. but the truth is most millionaires are first generation.

[zelmo1234]

how about a link re your millionaire statistic?

See post above!

[Chris]

http://www.daveramsey.com/blog/millionaire-myth-busters/

Yes there are people that inherit money, My family will inherit money upon my death, and that should build. but the truth is most millionaires are first generation.

What good is inherited money if you do nothing with it to generate wealth? It will merely be squandered, scattered to the corners of the earth (contributing to the economy despite your foolishness).

[zelmo1234]

I don't feel like looking it up right now, but social mobility in the US has never been very good, if I remember the articles I've read about it.

Actually you are wrong again!

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/07/the_myth_destroying_america_why_social_mobility_is _beyond_ordinary_peoples_control/

People move in and out of classes all the time.

What we have in this country is a lack of work ethic and of course the entitlement society brought to you by the democrats.

[The Xl]

Citing individuals who move up and down is a fallacy. We have hundreds of millions of people in the country, of course some will fall and some will beat the odds. The story the numbers tell is that there is generally little mobility in this country, and that the middle class is shrinking.

[zelmo1234]

What good is inherited money if you do nothing with it to generate wealth? It will merely be squandered, scattered to the corners of the earth (contributing to the economy despite your foolishness).

There are things that I protected in a trust just to guard against that.

I would suspect that my son will start his own business with the money and do very well. but eventually you run into a generation that will piss away the money

You try and guard against that by instilling work ethic, but that can't always be done.

So I set up a trust that will keep the homestead in the family forever, that way they will always have a place to live that can support a family.

[zelmo1234]

Citing individuals who move up and down is a fallacy. We have hundreds of millions of people in the country, of course some will fall and some will beat the odds. The story the numbers tell is that there is generally little mobility in this country, and that the middle class is shrinking.

Most people remain where they are because they are comfortable. And that is OK but to say that they do not have the opportunity is just wrong. Now people do things that make it very hard to beat the odds and the current system is designed to make them dependent!

I would agree that these things need to change, but that is government not the rich that are creating that situation

[Bob]

Actually you are wrong again!

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/07/the_myth_destroying_america_why_social_mobility_is _beyond_ordinary_peoples_control/

People move in and out of classes all the time.

What we have in this country is a lack of work ethic and of course the entitlement society brought to you by the democrats.

I look at wealth the way I look at travel.

This weekend, i went to Santa Cruz CA to meet family. We had a great time there.

Had i simply drove, wandered aimlessly, I have no clue where I was going other than I would be using up money on gasoline.

Wealth comes to goal setters. They must get a vision they hope to obtain. It has to be believable to them. A goal of obtaining a new 747 jet to fly globally is one some are able to do, but not most of us dream that big.

Can't say what Bill Gates dreamed, but he had to set goals. Had he not set goals, he had no idea where he was going.

Goals give you a huge personal charge. Maybe you must save up cash. This will help you avoid wild spending. You don't need that new Mercedes if you are still moving up. When you reach the top, that MB is quite easy to get.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuObJcgfSQA

[Chris]

Citing individuals who move up and down is a fallacy. We have hundreds of millions of people in the country, of course some will fall and some will beat the odds. The story the numbers tell is that there is generally little mobility in this country, and that the middle class is shrinking.

But it is only individuals who do move up and down, and Sowells statistics showed a great deal of mobility. The deception is in looking at it as static classes.

[PattyHill]

See post above!

thanks. Pls. see my earlier link as well

[The Xl]

Most people remain where they are because they are comfortable. And that is OK but to say that they do not have the opportunity is just wrong. Now people do things that make it very hard to beat the odds and the current system is designed to make them dependent!

I would agree that these things need to change, but that is government not the rich that are creating that situation

Or maybe it's because the poor and working class can't build any real wealth because of inflation, a higher cost of living, the whole 9, and we live in a pay to play culture where people only hire people with 6 figure college degrees that the poor can't get there hands on, and that are being useless anyway due to the over-saturation of them, a culture created by these guaranteed loans. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

And I agree that it's the government doing it, although most of the government is rich people through proxy buying influence.

[Archer0915]

How many poor people ever break through a class? It doesn't happen, between inflation and a pay to play system, among other things, they're usually stuck in their situation, outside of an anomaly here and there.

Many join the military and more give up! If you can get a job and have any brains with a little drive you will not remain poor.

[zelmo1234]

Here is the thing folks, you get rich, the same way you eat an elephant, one bite at a time.

The first thing that you need is an idea, most people that get rich start a business, many others invent something. So what is your idea. I know for a fact that you can own a series of Tiki hospitality huts and become a millionaire. I know the person that did it!

[Archer0915]

Or maybe it's because the poor and working class can't build any real wealth because of inflation, a higher cost of living, the whole 9, and we live in a pay to play culture where people only hire people with 6 figure college degrees that the poor can't get there hands on, and that are being useless anyway due to the over-saturation of them, a culture created by these guaranteed loans. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

And I agree that it's the government doing it, although most of the government is rich people through proxy buying influence.

Disagree. I can tell you that the one big reason many people stay poor is because they are scared to succeed.

Admitedley there are only so many jobs out there and many good paying ones. The jobs go unfilled and the companies, many times, import workers.

[zelmo1234]

Next you need a plan and that plan should be in small attainable goals.

Step one is always, always, always getting out of, or at the very least control over your debt. If you have any debt, it should be just your home and that should be less that 10% of your income if you are starting a business.

Then it is raising the capital. research and planning. And knowing that you have to start small.

Mine was 2 fold and I used some specialized training, that I paid for to earn enough capital to start my real estate and building company. then I returned to purchase my distribution company.

And last it is the hard work to make it a success

[The Xl]

True only if you look at the rich and poor as static classes and not the dynamics of individual mobility.

Economic Mobility (http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2013/03/06/economic-mobility-n1525556/page/full)

Most and many aren't statistics. The article seems to be more of a hit piece on multiculturalists anyway.

In any case, most of the wealthy are accumulating wealth and the wealth gap is increasing, so even if people are moving up and down, the divide is great, and their are only so many spots to be had.

[The Xl]

Disagree. I can tell you that the one big reason many people stay poor is because they are scared to succeed.

Admitedley there are only so many jobs out there and many good paying ones. The jobs go unfilled and the companies, many times, import workers.
I'm sure there is a portion of the poor and working class that are lazy or afraid. I'm not convinced it's the majority of them.

[zelmo1234]

Most and many aren't statistics. The article seems to be more of a hit piece on multiculturalists anyway.

In any case, most of the wealthy are accumulating wealth and the wealth gap is increasing, so even if people are moving up and down, the divide is great, and their are only so many spots to be had.

Says Who????

Why do you thing that what I or anyone else make, has anything to do with how much you can make?

The question is? do you want to be rich and are you willing to do what is necessary to get there?

[Chris]

Most and many aren't statistics. The article seems to be more of a hit piece on multiculturalists anyway.

In any case, most of the wealthy are accumulating wealth and the wealth gap is increasing, so even if people are moving up and down, the divide is great, and their are only so many spots to be had.

Yea, Sowell doesn't liberals.

So what can be done? I think one thing could be done is remove the barriers to economic mobility, make it easier for people to own property, start businesses, take pride in what they have and find dignity in what they do. Remove red tape involved in licensing, unions, min wages.

[The Xl]

Yea, Sowell doesn't liberals.

So what can be done? I think one thing could be done is remove the barriers to economic mobility, make it easier for people to own property, start businesses, take pride in what they have and find dignity in what they do. Remove red tape involved in licensing, unions, min wages.

I think most of the problem starts with the fraudulent nature of our currency. It's controlled by private hands, we're forced onto it by the government, and we're at the mercy of the inflation and all the financial gimmicks that ensue. You either need a fiat currency that isn't complex nor issued out of debt without a private entity ruling it, or you need to let the market handle it with their own currencies. I think a good suggestion is a mix of both, at least initially, a fiat government currency that is manageable while also letting the market create their own.

[Chris]

I think most of the problem starts with the fraudulent nature of our currency. It's controlled by private hands, we're forced onto it by the government, and we're at the mercy of the inflation and all the financial gimmicks that ensue. You either need a fiat currency that isn't complex nor issued out of debt without a private entity ruling it, or you need to let the market handle it with their own currencies. I think a good suggestion is a mix of both, at least initially, a fiat government currency that is manageable while also letting the market create their own.

Agree, that's what Stockman talks about in the interview in the video, fiat money. Getting control away from bankers would be a good step toward currency.

[The Xl]

Says Who????

Why do you thing that what I or anyone else make, has anything to do with how much you can make?

The question is? do you want to be rich and are you willing to do what is necessary to get there?

I'm actually doing okay, although I admit some of that is luck and good connections. Being a good looking guy doesn't hurt either(didn't want to go there, but I had to, it's part of why I'm doing okay) My best friend is brilliant, way smarter than me, he played the game, did what he was told, he's still living in the projects at 27. I don't believe the American dream is available for everyone anymore, especially if you start out in a lower class.

It's just basic math. We live in a system where it's hard to be well off, especially if you start at the bottom. Savings mean shit in the long run via inflation, everything is expensive, you need big degrees to usually make it in society, which are unaffordable to a large amount of the population, and to those who take out the loans, it sometimes means paying off your debt with a job at McDonalds. Society is fucked today in my opinion, and it's worse for my generation than it was for some of you older cats

[zelmo1234]

I'm actually doing okay, although I admit some of that is luck and good connections. Being a good looking guy doesn't hurt either(didn't want to go there, but I had to, it's part of why I'm doing okay) My best friend is brilliant, way smarter than me, he played the game, did what he was told, he's still living in the projects at 27. I don't believe the American dream is available for everyone anymore, especially if you start out in a lower class.

It's just basic math. We live in a system where it's hard to be well off, especially if you start at the bottom. Savings mean $#@! in the long run via inflation, everything is expensive, you need big degrees to usually make it in society, which are unaffordable to a large amount of the population, and to those who take out the loans, it sometimes means paying off your debt with a job at McDonalds. Society is $#@!ed today in my opinion, and it's worse for my generation than it was for some of you older cats

First for the truly poor, Collage is paid for with Pell grants, All they need to do is use the free public education system to meet the requirements.

But I only have 2 years of collage. Yes everything is expensive, so you need to work.

Here are the things that I think really stop people from becoming successful.

#1 Very, Very few people can attain wealth by working for others. Those that do usually use the 401K programs to the fullest, but it is really hard to find a job that pays that much. So you need to do something for yourself.

#2 People want the good things in life and are willing to borrow to get them. Debt will kill all of your opportunities. They want a great apartment, or buy too much home, eat out at there favorite restaurant, purchase that great car, or take those cool vacations. All things that are fine, but not if you want to become wealthy, there will be time for that later.

#3 People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan. In the words of the great Zig Ziglar, are you going to be a wandering generality or a meaningful specific ? If you do not have a plan, you will get depressed and will stop working toward your goal

#4 Use of things that alter your attitude. alcohol and drugs give you the F *%? it's and you will choose to stop driving toward your goals.

#5 they stop before they arrive. and this one is totally OK they get to the point that they are living well enough and they want to enjoy it! That is great.

#6 they just don't have the true desire to work the 2 and 3rd job, move in with people or family, sell the nice care and drive a junker. for a while. They are not willing to sacrifice and put life on hold while the get things in order and get started.

[Hal Jordan]

By and large, the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich. They're usually poor for their own reasons: family breakdown, low skills, destructive personal habits and plain bad luck.




Bad Luck... That's my middle name!

[Chris]

Bad Luck... That's my middle name!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivlw8VxHXUI

[Captain Obvious]

The ingredients are fixed (resources, labor, markets), using too much of them in a pie makes one really big pie for today and none for tomorrow.

[Hal Jordan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivlw8VxHXUI

That song has more relevance to me than you could know... :tongue:

[Dr. Who]

Says Who????

Why do you thing that what I or anyone else make, has anything to do with how much you can make?

The question is? do you want to be rich and are you willing to do what is necessary to get there?
TBH most people don't want to be rich, they just want to be comfortable and not worried about surviving without a modicum of dignity. Not everyone wants to sacrifice their lives and families to the almighty dollar. Money isn't everything, but it does buy freedom. Somehow that is a sad statement.

[Bob]

TBH most people don't want to be rich, they just want to be comfortable and not worried about surviving without a modicum of dignity. Not everyone wants to sacrifice their lives and families to the almighty dollar. Money isn't everything, but it does buy freedom. Somehow that is a sad statement.

The dumb ways to make money take enormous sacrifice.

The smart ways are much easier.

For instance, you open a laundromat. Dumb.

You come up with a great idea that works on the internet.

Smart.

[Peter1469]

From the op:

That is not blaming the poor; it is stating facts.

[Peter1469]

I'm actually doing okay, although I admit some of that is luck and good connections. Being a good looking guy doesn't hurt either(didn't want to go there, but I had to, it's part of why I'm doing okay) My best friend is brilliant, way smarter than me, he played the game, did what he was told, he's still living in the projects at 27. I don't believe the American dream is available for everyone anymore, especially if you start out in a lower class.

It's just basic math. We live in a system where it's hard to be well off, especially if you start at the bottom. Savings mean shit in the long run via inflation, everything is expensive, you need big degrees to usually make it in society, which are unaffordable to a large amount of the population, and to those who take out the loans, it sometimes means paying off your debt with a job at McDonalds. Society is fucked today in my opinion, and it's worse for my generation than it was for some of you older cats

You need marketable skills in today's society. Many people don't think about that until later in life, and then complain that they can't make money. That is not society's fault.

[kilgram]

That's not blame. Those are facts that keep people in poverty. As this thread attests there are other factors as well.
Blame.

It is their fault, is what it says.

[PattyHill]

Yea, Sowell doesn't liberals.

So what can be done? I think one thing could be done is remove the barriers to economic mobility, make it easier for people to own property, start businesses, take pride in what they have and find dignity in what they do. Remove red tape involved in licensing, unions, min wages.


So "removing red tape" sounds good till you get to the details. Dumping minimum wage and unions? um, no, we need a basic wage because desperate people will agree to anything and businesses will be happy to pay them less and less. And unions are a large part of why we had such a good middle class in the 50s/60s/70s.

One form of licensing is restrictions on where you can set up a hot dog stand, for example. It might sound good to get rid of that. But if 10 hot dog stands set up in front of a restaurant, that's not going to be good for that restaurant. Or for the sidewalks. And I think we all want food safety - those stands need to have hot enough water to cook the dogs, and some kind of sanitation for the hands of the cooks in them.

And of course some occupations require a certain amount of skill - to run a water plant, for example. We need those requirements.

But I have heard of examples of licensing for hair dressers, manicurists, etc that seem over the top - I'm totally ok looking at those and lowering the barrier to entry if it seems like they are just high to protect existing workers in those areas.

[PattyHill]

I'm actually doing okay, although I admit some of that is luck and good connections. Being a good looking guy doesn't hurt either(didn't want to go there, but I had to, it's part of why I'm doing okay) My best friend is brilliant, way smarter than me, he played the game, did what he was told, he's still living in the projects at 27. I don't believe the American dream is available for everyone anymore, especially if you start out in a lower class.

It's just basic math. We live in a system where it's hard to be well off, especially if you start at the bottom. Savings mean $#@! in the long run via inflation, everything is expensive, you need big degrees to usually make it in society, which are unaffordable to a large amount of the population, and to those who take out the loans, it sometimes means paying off your debt with a job at McDonalds. Society is $#@!ed today in my opinion, and it's worse for my generation than it was for some of you older cats


Exactly. It's hard for kids whose parents never went to college to figure out how to get there. Yes, Pell Grants can cover some of the cost; and if it's a community college possibly all of the cost. But they won't cover four year colleges. How do you apply? how do you get financial aid? how do you get loans? It's hard if you don't have anyone who can help you through it, and schools have a lot fewer counselors today.

This kid turned down 8 Ivy League schools, Stanford, Johns Hopkins and Vanderbilt; he's going to Univ of Alabama - because he doesn't want to get into debt. Smart move. But it will impact all his future choices.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/get-there/smart-kid-makes-a-really-smart-financial-move-turning-down-all-8-ivies/2015/05/20/7d3f20ca-ff27-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html

[Chris]

The ingredients are fixed (resources, labor, markets), using too much of them in a pie makes one really big pie for today and none for tomorrow.

Only resources are limited. Labor/production is not, nor is exchange. Markets are the outcome.

[Chris]

TBH most people don't want to be rich, they just want to be comfortable and not worried about surviving without a modicum of dignity. Not everyone wants to sacrifice their lives and families to the almighty dollar. Money isn't everything, but it does buy freedom. Somehow that is a sad statement.

Very true.

Besides, what good does it do to be rich if you don't spend it, which puts it back into the economy, invests it in more jobs, etc. Provided government doesn't with its meddling create such an unstable economic environment people are hesitant to risk it.

[Chris]

Blame.

It is their fault, is what it says.

That's what you read into it, as per usual, it's not what it says. And, again, it's not the main point of the OP. I don't know about Spanish rhetoric, but in English a good writer writes a piece on one point, and usually tells you the points, explains the point, and then repeats the point. You seem to get lost in little details explaining the point because you don't get the context of the point. It's not about blaming anyone, it's not about rich vs poor, it's about the fact wealth is not fixed but dynamic.

[Chris]

So "removing red tape" sounds good till you get to the details. Dumping minimum wage and unions? um, no, we need a basic wage because desperate people will agree to anything and businesses will be happy to pay them less and less. And unions are a large part of why we had such a good middle class in the 50s/60s/70s.

One form of licensing is restrictions on where you can set up a hot dog stand, for example. It might sound good to get rid of that. But if 10 hot dog stands set up in front of a restaurant, that's not going to be good for that restaurant. Or for the sidewalks. And I think we all want food safety - those stands need to have hot enough water to cook the dogs, and some kind of sanitation for the hands of the cooks in them.

And of course some occupations require a certain amount of skill - to run a water plant, for example. We need those requirements.

But I have heard of examples of licensing for hair dressers, manicurists, etc that seem over the top - I'm totally ok looking at those and lowering the barrier to entry if it seems like they are just high to protect existing workers in those areas.


So "removing red tape" sounds good till you get to the details.

Let's stop there. You seem to have a point of contention, but you don't explain it at all.


I won't address the distortions you make of removing min wage restrictions.


You seem to have a sky is falling approach to everything, that always leads to needing more government intervention into our lives.

[Chris]

Exactly. It's hard for kids whose parents never went to college to figure out how to get there. Yes, Pell Grants can cover some of the cost; and if it's a community college possibly all of the cost. But they won't cover four year colleges. How do you apply? how do you get financial aid? how do you get loans? It's hard if you don't have anyone who can help you through it, and schools have a lot fewer counselors today.

This kid turned down 8 Ivy League schools, Stanford, Johns Hopkins and Vanderbilt; he's going to Univ of Alabama - because he doesn't want to get into debt. Smart move. But it will impact all his future choices.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/get-there/smart-kid-makes-a-really-smart-financial-move-turning-down-all-8-ivies/2015/05/20/7d3f20ca-ff27-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html



Life is hard.

[PattyHill]

Let's stop there. You seem to have a point of contention, but you don't explain it at all.


I won't address the distortions you make of removing min wage restrictions.


You seem to have a sky is falling approach to everything, that always leads to needing more government intervention into our lives.


Since I listed several things where removing so-called "red tape" might not work out so well, not sure why you said I didn't explain it.

I know you are extremely on the "no govt" side of things so it's unlikely you agree with my examples, but I did explain some examples.

[Archer0915]

We, as humans, feel the need to conform, to belong, to be part of something larger than ourselves. Black, white, rich, poor... we all fall into roles. We can break those roles but then we have to deal with non acceptance by our peers. Until the majority in this country, the people who are sick and tired of our corporate owned political masters, put aside our differences and join hands with one heart and mind for the future of this nation and our children nothing will change for the better.

[Chris]

Since I listed several things where removing so-called "red tape" might not work out so well, not sure why you said I didn't explain it.

I know you are extremely on the "no govt" side of things so it's unlikely you agree with my examples, but I did explain some examples.



I mentioned red tape, min wage and licensing. What red tape sounds good until you go into what details?

I responded to other points. My point being government is expensive, not only in terms of what it costs to run a government and pay for its meddling but in terms of its meddling reducing our ability to work and live and run a business. So in your advocacy for ever bigger government, how do you propose to pay for it all?

[zelmo1234]

Exactly. It's hard for kids whose parents never went to college to figure out how to get there. Yes, Pell Grants can cover some of the cost; and if it's a community college possibly all of the cost. But they won't cover four year colleges. How do you apply? how do you get financial aid? how do you get loans? It's hard if you don't have anyone who can help you through it, and schools have a lot fewer counselors today.

This kid turned down 8 Ivy League schools, Stanford, Johns Hopkins and Vanderbilt; he's going to Univ of Alabama - because he doesn't want to get into debt. Smart move. But it will impact all his future choices.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/get-there/smart-kid-makes-a-really-smart-financial-move-turning-down-all-8-ivies/2015/05/20/7d3f20ca-ff27-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html

Actually here is part of the problem, When I was in HS back in the early, early 80's we all filled out the financial aid forms, it did not matter if we were going to collage or not. And when some found out that they were covered they changed there mind.

All Collages require financial aid forms, I turned mine with the check every time. It is only hard because they don't want success coming out of the inner cities.

Look what Obama did to the School of choice system that was really working in DC. He canned it and then sent his kids to a fancy private school

That program was changing lives. and that is not what they wanted.

[Chris]

Actually here is part of the problem, When I was in HS back in the early, early 80's we all filled out the financial aid forms, it did not matter if we were going to collage or not. And when some found out that they were covered they changed there mind.

All Collages require financial aid forms, I turned mine with the check every time. It is only hard because they don't want success coming out of the inner cities.

Look what Obama did to the School of choice system that was really working in DC. He canned it and then sent his kids to a fancy private school

That program was changing lives. and that is not what they wanted.


It is only hard because they don't want success coming out of the inner cities.

They?

[zelmo1234]

They?

There is a political party in the USA that thrives on people being dependent on the government, and have turned the public educational system into an indoctrination system that no longer teaches kids useful information.

[Guille]

There is a political party in the USA that thrives on people being dependent on the government, and have turned the public educational system into an indoctrination system that no longer teaches kids useful information.

Only one?

[Chris]

There is a political party in the USA that thrives on people being dependent on the government, and have turned the public educational system into an indoctrination system that no longer teaches kids useful information.

OK, agree, just checking...as we don't want to blame the poor, oh my! People are poor because government bought out by the rich does everything it can to keep them that way.

[PattyHill]

Actually here is part of the problem, When I was in HS back in the early, early 80's we all filled out the financial aid forms, it did not matter if we were going to collage or not. And when some found out that they were covered they changed there mind.

All Collages require financial aid forms, I turned mine with the check every time. It is only hard because they don't want success coming out of the inner cities.

Look what Obama did to the School of choice system that was really working in DC. He canned it and then sent his kids to a fancy private school

That program was changing lives. and that is not what they wanted.

Well, at my school we didn't fill out the forms. My parents were reluctant to fill out the forms at first because they didn't think we'd get aid. When I did get aid for my freshman year, they were willing to fill them out from then on.

My stepdaughter didn't fill them out at her school. Her mom was not helpful. We ended up having her fill them out when she was on a visit to our house. But she left her first-choice school off the forms because she thought she wasn't going to get into it, so by the time she got some aid from them it wasn't very good.

Someone from an area who has never heard of the FAFSA might have an even harder time filling them out.

[Chris]

Only one?

Only two.

[zelmo1234]

Well, at my school we didn't fill out the forms. My parents were reluctant to fill out the forms at first because they didn't think we'd get aid. When I did get aid for my freshman year, they were willing to fill them out from then on.

My stepdaughter didn't fill them out at her school. Her mom was not helpful. We ended up having her fill them out when she was on a visit to our house. But she left her first-choice school off the forms because she thought she wasn't going to get into it, so by the time she got some aid from them it wasn't very good.

Someone from an area who has never heard of the FAFSA might have an even harder time filling them out.

Don't you think that would be a really good assignment for all High School Seniors?

To me this is something that has a real easy fix.

[PattyHill]

Don't you think that would be a really good assignment for all High School Seniors?

To me this is something that has a real easy fix.


In general, yes. However - the forms require information that's considered private, such as parents' income. If they are filling this out in a school setting, it could be hard to keep that stuff private.

But to walk them through the form so they know it exists, where it is online, and then offering help to complete it after school if parents agree - fine with that.

[nic34]

The poor are not poor because of the rich. Middle class workers are.

[zelmo1234]

The poor are not poor because of the rich. Middle class workers are.

What exactly have the rich done to the middle class to prevent them from earning more money?

[zelmo1234]

In general, yes. However - the forms require information that's considered private, such as parents' income. If they are filling this out in a school setting, it could be hard to keep that stuff private.

But to walk them through the form so they know it exists, where it is online, and then offering help to complete it after school if parents agree - fine with that.

So fill it out with several income scenarios and then give them a copy that has everything but the parents information and send it home.

[PattyHill]

So fill it out with several income scenarios and then give them a copy that has everything but the parents information and send it home.


It's not a paper form anymore, by the way; it's all online. So hopefully the kids have a PC and internet connection at home...otherwise, make sure they know what info is required and hold evening/weekend sessions for parents to come to school to finish filling it out.

[Chris]

Could use computer at school or, God forbid, local library.

[Captain Obvious]

Could use computer at school or, God forbid, local library.

But that would ruin their convenience...

[PattyHill]

Could use computer at school or, God forbid, local library.


Of course they could. Since Zelmo1234 suggested having the school help the student fill out the form, I suggested the school allow the parents to use their computers and help them through it. Guess you missed that part in 105 where I said that?

And yes, they could go to the library instead.

[nic34]

Of course they could. Since Zelmo1234 suggested having the school help the student fill out the form, I suggested the school allow the parents to use their computers and help them through it. Guess you missed that part in 105 where I said that?

And yes, they could go to the library instead.

Why would you suggest parents get involved with their kids' education anyway?

SHEEEESH!

[Chris]

Why would you suggest parents get involved with their kids' education anyway?

SHEEEESH!

Really, the schools don't like that anymore. I recall, over a decade ago now, going to bat for my son and the school really didn't know what to do with me. Finally had meeting with principle and advisor and teacher and the teacher got all upset and said it was all up to her and I had no business meddling.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Aren't most rich that way from inheritance? The ones that aren't, the class-climbers, are no-talent bootlickers who worship the HeirHeads. Why would the HeirDads promote the talented to compete with their pre-ordained winners?

[The Sage of Main Street]

The ingredients are fixed (resources, labor, markets), using too much of them in a pie makes one really big pie for today and none for tomorrow. The value of the resources is dynamic, not static. It depends on the value of the creative human resources. Investors are a static, obstructive, or destructive force. Parasites off creativity they are incapable of, they demoralize the talented. Development loses momentum, stalls, and then slides backward.

[The Sage of Main Street]

The poor are not poor because of the rich. Middle class workers are. Both the rich and the poor deserve to be poor. Both those classes comprise thieves, bullies, and parasites. Whenever you read some scribbling prostitute contras those twin enemies of society, he is being dishonest. It is in the interest of the ruling class to exclude the majority, which threatens them and deserves to level them and keep the other end down, too.

[Guerilla]

I think start up costs is a big obstacle for the poor that isn't as big a problem for the rich. I think it's a solid example of how the economy is not an open field that all people easily and freely move about on, as Chris portrays.

Something less tangible is connections. From what I can tell, the right connections can get you really far, really fast. Poor people mostly have other poor connections while rich often have other rich connections.

[Chris]

I think start up costs is a big obstacle for the poor that isn't as big a problem for the rich. I think it's a solid example of how the economy is not an open field that all people easily and freely move about on, as Chris portrays.

Something less tangible is connections. From what I can tell, the right connections can get you really far, really fast. Poor people mostly have other poor connections while rich often have other rich connections.



That gets back to red tape though, if red tape were removed to make it easier to own property and start up a business, then the poor would have a better chance. Example, it's fairly easy to purchase a decent running car and use Lyft or Uber to start a taxi business, but taxi medallions cost more than all but a few can afford-oh, wait, I see where recently the price fell to $872,000 in NYC, well, then.

But then you got people like PattyHill who want government to regulate everything.

[PattyHill]

That gets back to red tape though, if red tape were removed to make it easier to own property and start up a business, then the poor would have a better chance. Example, it's fairly easy to purchase a decent running car and use Lyft or Uber to start a taxi business, but taxi medallions cost more than all but a few can afford-oh, wait, I see where recently the price fell to $872,000 in NYC, well, then.

But then you got people like PattyHill who want government to regulate everything.


And you'll be the first to sue Uber or Lyft when you're in an accident riding with one of their drivers who has no insurance.

[Chris]

And you'll be the first to sue Uber or Lyft when you're in an accident riding with one of their drivers who has no insurance.


That would happen even with government regulation and insurance.

[Guerilla]

That gets back to red tape though, if red tape were removed to make it easier to own property and start up a business, then the poor would have a better chance. Example, it's fairly easy to purchase a decent running car and use Lyft or Uber to start a taxi business, but taxi medallions cost more than all but a few can afford-oh, wait, I see where recently the price fell to $872,000 in NYC, well, then.

But then you got people like PattyHill who want government to regulate everything.

As far as property goes, I still think no one should be able to own it and you can only claim that which you utilize. I think that would help tremendously for the poor.

And yes all the red tape and fees affect poor more than rich, and they are probably mostly unnecessary. I think working long hours, paycheck to paycheck, also leaves people without the time or patience to worry about cumbersome red tape.

[Chris]

As far as property goes, I still think no one should be able to own it and you can only claim that which you utilize. I think that would help tremendously for the poor.

And yes all the red tape and fees affect poor more than rich, and they are probably mostly unnecessary. I think working long hours, paycheck to paycheck, also leaves people without the time or patience to worry about cumbersome red tape.



Seems to me you take away property rights you take away any hope the poor have of raising themselves up. One who lives on property he doesn't own is unlikely to care for it as much as property he does own and can take pride in. It is property that one builds equity on to take out loans to venture furthering oneself.

[Chris]

What's more, Guerilla, in the quest to close the gap between poor and rich, you not only want to take away the means of attaining wealth, property, but the ends of wealth, also property, for what is it the rich are rich in but property, land, plant, machinery, all the things of capital. Am I to understand then you would just tear it all down, level it all out, in order to close the gap and attain equality?

[Guerilla]

Seems to me you take away property rights you take away any hope the poor have of raising themselves up. One who lives on property he doesn't own is unlikely to care for it as much as property he does own and can take pride in. It is property that one builds equity on to take out loans to venture furthering oneself.

My bad, I meant only land property rights, not property rights in general.

I think it would give them more hope. If they don't have a lot of money and they want to raise themselves up, having a place to stay without rent is very helpful. Especially because homes that are closer to places of more opportunity are more expensive, so only richer people can afford those well placed homes, or spaces.

You say a person who lives somewhere they don't own will mess it up, but I'd say why would anyone mess up a place that they are living? I'd say living there is a better reason to keep it decent, rather than simply because you own it. (If I owned something, I'd actually feel more at liberty to destroy it, than if I don't own it)

BTW, loans don't seem like a great way to further yourself.

[zelmo1234]

I think start up costs is a big obstacle for the poor that isn't as big a problem for the rich. I think it's a solid example of how the economy is not an open field that all people easily and freely move about on, as Chris portrays.

Something less tangible is connections. From what I can tell, the right connections can get you really far, really fast. Poor people mostly have other poor connections while rich often have other rich connections.

I actually think that these are Both very good opinions and for the most part true. Capital is very critical in running any business. But remember that a lot of people start businesses. I started mine very small. And continued working for other people for the first 8 years. But I did have a few people that could help me with connections. And that helped.

You see when you are from a poor and middle class family you have to start slow and start now. This allows you to build up your wealth slowly.

With me, my first purchase was a run down trailer, when I finally had if fixed up. I sold my home and moved in! with the little equity that I had I was able to buy a run down home. When I finally had that fixed up I moved into that and rented the trailer. Then it was a very small house and another trailer. Took a year for those to be fixed up enough to rent. but then is started growing faster. but if you take the path that I did, your first 5 years are long and slow, the next 5 are not a ton better,

but when your get ride of that debt and have the extra income, the capital comes fast.

[zelmo1234]

As far as property goes, I still think no one should be able to own it and you can only claim that which you utilize. I think that would help tremendously for the poor.

And yes all the red tape and fees affect poor more than rich, and they are probably mostly unnecessary. I think working long hours, paycheck to paycheck, also leaves people without the time or patience to worry about cumbersome red tape.

Actually not being able to own property would make it that much harder. You can leverage property and use it to grow, for those that are comfortable with borrowing money, they can up property up and get start up loans.

[zelmo1234]

My bad, I meant only land property rights, not property rights in general.

I think it would give them more hope. If they don't have a lot of money and they want to raise themselves up, having a place to stay without rent is very helpful. Especially because homes that are closer to places of more opportunity are more expensive, so only richer people can afford those well placed homes, or spaces.

You say a person who lives somewhere they don't own will mess it up, but I'd say why would anyone mess up a place that they are living? I'd say living there is a better reason to keep it decent, rather than simply because you own it. (If I owned something, I'd actually feel more at liberty to destroy it, than if I don't own it)

How is going to pay for the homes, if you are not paying rent or buying it, then the government owns the home and you are going to pay through the nose in taxes to cover the cover the cost. Bad Idea!

BTW, loans don't seem like a great way to further yourself.

[Guerilla]

I actually think that these are Both very good opinions and for the most part true. Capital is very critical in running any business. But remember that a lot of people start businesses. I started mine very small. And continued working for other people for the first 8 years. But I did have a few people that could help me with connections. And that helped.

You see when you are from a poor and middle class family you have to start slow and start now. This allows you to build up your wealth slowly.

With me, my first purchase was a run down trailer, when I finally had if fixed up. I sold my home and moved in! with the little equity that I had I was able to buy a run down home. When I finally had that fixed up I moved into that and rented the trailer. Then it was a very small house and another trailer. Took a year for those to be fixed up enough to rent. but then is started growing faster. but if you take the path that I did, your first 5 years are long and slow, the next 5 are not a ton better,

but when your get ride of that debt and have the extra income, the capital comes fast.

I like the fixing up houses idea, it seems like a pretty sure payoff. It also mixes some of your housing expenses and business into one, clever. I agree, it will take time for anyone to get the money coming in fast and, meanwhile, debt and lack of extra income runs the chance of breaking the business. If people had the ability to be more self-sufficient, they wouldn't have to worry about going into debt or selling the business to pay for basics like to eat and pay for a roof, and all or most of their income from their other skills or jobs could go to pay for the business(or whatever they choose). ..I guess that's what I'm going for; the same setup could also be looked at on a larger scale with a socialist community as the individual; ..I think I've posted examples of it before.

[Common]

I have a friend came from my neighborhood and who was not middleclass. Is now a multimillionaire and hes never had a job. Never really worked.

He got hit by a car in queens, got a 120k he bought a duplex in the city. Rented both sides lived with his mother, 2 yrs later he bought another. Long story short he bought a bldg in the city that had 6 store fronts and 16 apts above, he got it dirt cheap because of condition and location. He hired people to fix it up over 4 yr period and it still wasnt done. Real estate went nuts went sky high. He was getting offers on the bldg, it got to be a bidding war in his favor. On the one bldg he made 3.5 million and just kept buying and hiring to fix them and resell them. Luckiest SOB ever.:)

[zelmo1234]

I have a friend came from my neighborhood and who was not middleclass. Is now a multimillionaire and hes never had a job. Never really worked.

He got hit by a car in queens, got a 120k he bought a duplex in the city. Rented both sides lived with his mother, 2 yrs later he bought another. Long story short he bought a bldg in the city that had 6 store fronts and 16 apts above, he got it dirt cheap because of condition and location. He hired people to fix it up over 4 yr period and it still wasnt done. Real estate went nuts went sky high. He was getting offers on the bldg, it got to be a bidding war in his favor. On the one bldg he made 3.5 million and just kept buying and hiring to fix them and resell them. Luckiest SOB ever.:)

Never worked, but he was smart enough to purchase a building, and then another, and he hired the work done and collected rent and made profits on the Sale of the property?

That is what we call work? some work hard and some work smart. I think that he made his own luck

What do you think

[kilgram]

Ford foreigners can you explain me what is this form?

[kilgram]

My bad, I meant only land property rights, not property rights in general.

I think it would give them more hope. If they don't have a lot of money and they want to raise themselves up, having a place to stay without rent is very helpful. Especially because homes that are closer to places of more opportunity are more expensive, so only richer people can afford those well placed homes, or spaces.

You say a person who lives somewhere they don't own will mess it up, but I'd say why would anyone mess up a place that they are living? I'd say living there is a better reason to keep it decent, rather than simply because you own it. (If I owned something, I'd actually feel more at liberty to destroy it, than if I don't own it)

BTW, loans don't seem like a great way to further yourself.
Enjoy discussing with Chris and his inhability to understand anything goes beyond his preconceived ideology.

Good luck.

[Chris]

My bad, I meant only land property rights, not property rights in general.

I think it would give them more hope. If they don't have a lot of money and they want to raise themselves up, having a place to stay without rent is very helpful. Especially because homes that are closer to places of more opportunity are more expensive, so only richer people can afford those well placed homes, or spaces.

You say a person who lives somewhere they don't own will mess it up, but I'd say why would anyone mess up a place that they are living? I'd say living there is a better reason to keep it decent, rather than simply because you own it. (If I owned something, I'd actually feel more at liberty to destroy it, than if I don't own it)

BTW, loans don't seem like a great way to further yourself.


Not sure how land differs from any other property if you mix the fruits of your labor with it.

Loans would be a means of investing against the future, which is always risky.

[Chris]

Enjoy discussing with Chris and his inhability to understand anything goes beyond his preconceived ideology.

Good luck.

I used to enjoy discussing these topics with you till you decide to take and make everything personal. Certainly not the behavior of a VIP.

[PattyHill]

I have a friend came from my neighborhood and who was not middleclass. Is now a multimillionaire and hes never had a job. Never really worked.

He got hit by a car in queens, got a 120k he bought a duplex in the city. Rented both sides lived with his mother, 2 yrs later he bought another. Long story short he bought a bldg in the city that had 6 store fronts and 16 apts above, he got it dirt cheap because of condition and location. He hired people to fix it up over 4 yr period and it still wasnt done. Real estate went nuts went sky high. He was getting offers on the bldg, it got to be a bidding war in his favor. On the one bldg he made 3.5 million and just kept buying and hiring to fix them and resell them. Luckiest SOB ever.:)


Never discount the value of luck!

I've had a couple times where good luck helped me out, and I appreciate it. I don't take those two times as proof I'm a financial genius or anything; just was glad I was lucky.

Didn't make me multimillionaire though... not that lucky!

[Chris]

Given no one can predict the future with any certainty luck has a lot to do with it.

[Captain Obvious]

Given no one can predict the future with any certainty luck has a lot to do with it.

You certain about that?

[Chris]

You certain about that?

Yes. It's a statement about the present.

[PolWatch]

Some people want to believe the Horatio Alger stories of hard work always pay off. They believe that anyone who isn't wealthy is just lazy or dumb. Common's post starts with someone winning a lawsuit. Work or smarts had nothing to do with it.

Donald Trump tells everyone he is a self-made millionaire. He doesn't count the million his father gave him to start his business or the in-place web of connections. He took it from there....but where would he have been without the money & influence to start with?

For every wealthy person who will tell others how hard they worked, there are probably 1,000 people who worked just as hard but were not in the right place at the right time.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of hard work and determination, but pure luck has as much to do with success as sweat.

[Chris]

Agree. This has been an interesting thread in exploring all that's needed to succeed besides a good work ethic.

[kilgram]

I used to enjoy discussing these topics with you till you decide to take and make everything personal. Certainly not the behavior of a VIP.
I enjoyed it until you decided to use constant ad hominem, accuse me of things that I am not, make parodies of me in threads I didn't participated just to troll me.

It stopped to be fun and also it is not a good behaviour for a mod.

[Chris]

I enjoyed it until you decided to use constant ad hominem, accuse me of things that I am not, make parodies of me in threads I didn't participated just to troll me.

It stopped to be fun and also it is not a good behaviour for a mod.


I have never attacked you, kilgram. Never. I have commented on and criticized what you post only. The problem here is you, like some others, take and make things personal.

[Archer0915]

Some people want to believe the Horatio Alger stories of hard work always pay off. They believe that anyone who isn't wealthy is just lazy or dumb. Common's post starts with someone winning a lawsuit. Work or smarts had nothing to do with it.

Donald Trump tells everyone he is a self-made millionaire. He doesn't count the million his father gave him to start his business or the in-place web of connections. He took it from there....but where would he have been without the money & influence to start with?

For every wealthy person who will tell others how hard they worked, there are probably 1,000 people who worked just as hard but were not in the right place at the right time.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of hard work and determination, but pure luck has as much to do with success as sweat.

I can not agree with this because not being dirt poor is not being rich or wealthy.

Hard work always pays off. No matter how much money you make or your position, if you learn the job, grow and look for more you will get it.

Will hard work make you rich? If it aint it the cards then it aint in the cards.

Working to the best of ones ability always pays off. You may not get rich but there is much more to life than getting rich. Also it is relative.

Take me for example. I am, by no means, rich. Some would call us on the edge of poverty... I got no issues with that because if you are looking at income it may be so. Look at assets and liabilities it may not seem that way. If I wanted a new Harley I could just go get one, BMW? Mercedes? Yup! But I never buy new, well my bike was new but it is paid for.

Did I got the quarter million dollar house? Nope because I knew what a damn ARM was, hell they explained it. I bought a 2 year old foreclosure before the housing crisis. I got really pissed when the government started giving away money to buy homes a few years later! Fuck it, water under the bridge.

I am jealous of noone but believe me I get pissed of when I see people getting over.

Anywho I would reevaluate how you look at things. Money and power? Don't mean nothin. Being content with what you do have and working toward something means everything.

[Rufus]

The issue is access to capital. The rich are able to access it without having to trade their time and effort for it, where as the working class are forced to trade their blood and sweat for a few scraps of it.

[zelmo1234]

The issue is access to capital. The rich are able to access it without having to trade their time and effort for it, where as the working class are forced to trade their blood and sweat for a few scraps of it.

Correct, but with 80% of millionaires being first generation, that is how they started out too.

[Redrose]

I have several neighbors who are extremely wealthy, multi, multi millionaires.

One couple directly across the street are one of the richest in the group. He was a tool and dye worker as a youth and designed and built the machines that make the cans for soda and beer. His big clients are Coke, Pepsi and Budweiser. Not too shabby.

He travels constantly around the world servicing the machinary. He was the son of a sharecropper here in Tennessee. He made his own fortune. He owns several factories and hires many dozens of workers.

He was smart, creative, willing to take chances, worked hard, and became wealthy. I do not begrudge him his success. Because of him and his success, many people have a good job.

[Bob]

I have several neighbors who are extremely wealthy, multi, multi millionaires.

One couple directly across the street are one of the richest in the group. He was a tool and dye worker as a youth and designed and built the machines that make the cans for soda and beer. His big clients are Coke, Pepsi and Budweiser. Not too shabby.

He travels constantly around the world servicing the machinary. He was the son of a sharecropper here in Tennessee. He made his own fortune. He owns several factories and hires many dozens of workers.

He was smart, creative, willing to take chances, worked hard, and became wealthy. I do not begrudge him his success. Because of him and his success, many people have a good job.

At my former Machine shop, we made some tooling and dies. Very interesting to make. Very close tolerances. I congratulate America's true craftsmen. It takes many years to be a top tool and die maker.

In the SF Bay Area, I pioneered the use of the steel rule die when it comes to blanking out stainless steel parts. I taught a very old office machine maker how to do it. It was a bit scary teaching a large group of professional engineers. At the same time it was fun.

We built one punch press die that blanked out engine aluminum cowling parts for the very old DC-3 airplane. The company had long prior stopped making replacement parts.

[Peter1469]

I have several neighbors who are extremely wealthy, multi, multi millionaires.

One couple directly across the street are one of the richest in the group. He was a tool and dye worker as a youth and designed and built the machines that make the cans for soda and beer. His big clients are Coke, Pepsi and Budweiser. Not too shabby.

He travels constantly around the world servicing the machinary. He was the son of a sharecropper here in Tennessee. He made his own fortune. He owns several factories and hires many dozens of workers.

He was smart, creative, willing to take chances, worked hard, and became wealthy. I do not begrudge him his success. Because of him and his success, many people have a good job.

Obama would tell him that "he didn't make that" and then raise his taxes.

[zelmo1234]

Obama would tell him that "he didn't make that" and then raise his taxes.

Yes I was thinking that he is likely not paying his fair share :)

[Bob]

Obama would tell him that "he didn't make that" and then raise his taxes.

Democrat's creed is that no company owner made that. That the workers did all of it.

When my company made steel rule dies to make parts out of stainless steel and other types of metal, the company was the sole maker of steel rule dies in Northern CA made for only metal.

Puzzle makers had long used steel rule dies but cutting paper is nothing compared to cutting stainless steel parts.

Course even though it was all my idea, it had to be my employees that "did that".

[PattyHill]

Democrat's creed is that no company owner made that. That the workers did all of it.

When my company made steel rule dies to make parts out of stainless steel and other types of metal, the company was the sole maker of steel rule dies in Northern CA made for only metal.

Puzzle makers had long used steel rule dies but cutting paper is nothing compared to cutting stainless steel parts.

Course even though it was all my idea, it had to be my employees that "did that".


Huh uh. Sure it was all your idea.

[Bob]

Huh uh. Sure it was all your idea.

Name the employee you give the credit to?

The story is longer than I stated.

I took publications that added to my machine shop knowledge. We did a wide variety of work.

Reading on the aircraft industry in the Los Angeles area, a story was told about the steel rule die.

As I stated, when you see a puzzle, it very likely is made using the steel rule die. But the blades are vastly different than those I used.

I give credit to the company that made the blades that made the first metal cutting steel rule dies.

I am quite certain other companies used them. But a lot of tool. and die makers did not trust them and one more anti steel rule die argument is they are not super long lasting.

I took blue prints from customers and gave it a try. None of my employees would think of something like this. When I took my project to my shop foreman, he told me he could make them but did not know a thing about how well the worked.

I took a chance.

But it was my idea and at the time, I owned the only company in the SF Bay Area making them.

[Bob]

My bad, I meant only land property rights, not property rights in general.

I think it would give them more hope. If they don't have a lot of money and they want to raise themselves up, having a place to stay without rent is very helpful. Especially because homes that are closer to places of more opportunity are more expensive, so only richer people can afford those well placed homes, or spaces.

You say a person who lives somewhere they don't own will mess it up, but I'd say why would anyone mess up a place that they are living? I'd say living there is a better reason to keep it decent, rather than simply because you own it. (If I owned something, I'd actually feel more at liberty to destroy it, than if I don't own it)

BTW, loans don't seem like a great way to further yourself.

If you can get anything for free, why work to pay for any of it?