Welcome to the global marketplace

[Mister D]

but remember...Americans either don't have the required skills or they're just too lazy.

Snip


Instead, about 250 Disney (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/disney_walt_company/index.html?inline=nyt-org) employeeswere told in late October (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-disney-technology-restructuring-20141028-story.html) that they would be laid off. Many of their jobs were transferred to immigrants on temporary visas for highly skilled technical workers, who were brought in by an outsourcing firm based in India. Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train their replacements to do the jobs they had lost.

Snip


Too often, critics say, the visas are being used to bring in immigrants to do the work of Americans for less money, with laid-off American workers having to train their replacements.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0

[Mac-7]

Disney is not the only one, but since they are democrats lets boycott them.

dont pay to see a Disney movie or visit the parks.

[Chris]

Smart move. If you're successful you'll put damned Disney out of business. Only 180000 employees out of jobs.

[Mac-7]

Smart move. If you're successful you'll put $#@!ed Disney out of business. Only 180000 employees out of jobs.

180,000 foreigners that will go on food stamps or be sent back to India?

What Disney has done could be undone just as easily instead of declaring bankruptcy.

[Chris]

Or you could get government to dictate to Disney who it should hire and how much it should pay.

Oh, and according to the OP, that's only 250 foreigner, 180000 American employees.

[Chris]

but remember...Americans either don't have the required skills or they're just too lazy.

Snip



Snip




http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0



I suppose Americans could demand less. Probably not though.

[Mac-7]

Or you could get government to dictate to Disney who it should hire and how much it should pay.

Oh, and according to the OP, that's only 250 foreigner, 180000 American employees.

In a way government already is by issuing H1b visas to Disney which allows them to fire Americans and replace them with foreigners.

All I'm saying don't do business with Disney.

[Calypso Jones]

you know..they've been doing this for a long long time. Go to CHina at Epcot and you'll meet subtly rude Chinese national students. THey are like the French and are happy to correct you.

[Calypso Jones]

Lib-progs are so conflicted.. They want to introduce you to global markets but then they say, think globally, buy locally....so which is it?

[The Xl]

Voodoo economics are the main issue hurting middle and lower class people, but right next to that is probably outsourcing.

[Mac-7]

Lib-progs are so conflicted.. They want to introduce you to global markets but then they say, think globally, buy locally....so which is it?

Liberals do not understand commerce.

They think money grows on money tree along the Potomac.

I say America needs a strong economy and that means a strong private sector.

[Mac-7]

Voodoo economics are the main issue hurting middle and lower class people, but right next to that is probably outsourcing.

Can you explain voodoo economics to me?

[The Xl]

Can you explain voodoo economics to me?

The way our banking and economic system operates. Inflation, fraudulent leverage, the boom and bust cycle, private entities controlling the volume and worth of our currency, etc

[Chris]

In a way government already is by issuing H1b visas to Disney which allows them to fire Americans and replace them with foreigners.

All I'm saying don't do business with Disney.


Issuing visas at Disney's request is not dictating.

And if you're lucky you'll put 180000 Americans out of jobs.

Conservative are supposed to be prudent in action and look at consequences.

[Mac-7]

The way our banking and economic system operates. Inflation, fraudulent leverage, the boom and bust cycle, private entities controlling the volume and worth of our currency, etc

Ok, its difficult to pin down and I don't blame you for that.

But you have it backwards when you place outsourcing below voodoo economics.

The loss of good jobs is the most damaging thing that has happened to the middle class and poor.

[Chris]

Lib-progs are so conflicted.. They want to introduce you to global markets but then they say, think globally, buy locally....so which is it?

SA is big on tourism, Air Force, medical research. I'd be hard-pressed to buy local. Toyota trucks are too small.

[Mac-7]

Issuing visas at Disney's request is not dictating.



Its dictating to American workers replaced by foreigners that they will lose their jobs.

[Chris]

Liberals do not understand commerce.

They think money grows on money tree along the Potomac.

I say America needs a strong economy and that means a strong private sector.



Right, slogans solve everything.

[The Xl]

Ok, its difficult to pin down and I don't blame you for that.

But you have it backwards when you place outsourcing below voodoo economics.

The loss of good jobs is the most damaging thing that has happened to the middle class and poor.
I agree that it has hurt, but I don't think it's caused the mayhem that voodoo economics has, and I'm not sure it's particularly close.

It seems to be hurting a good amount though

[Chris]

Its dictating to American workers replaced by foreigners that they will lose their jobs.

Shouldn't Disney, in the private sector, being strong, as you slogan, be able to make their own decisions? You seem to want to use government to dictate who they can hire. You are for a free market are you. Just another Republican socialist as George Will said in his recent column on Sanders.

[Mac-7]

I agree that it has hurt, but I don't think it's caused the mayhem that voodoo economics has, and I'm not sure it's particularly close.

It seems to be hurting a good amount though

When most of our consumer goods are made overseas that means less money in the US economy and less buying power for the middle class.

We have a $300 billion annual trade deficit with china alone.

That creates more demand for government handouts but less tax revenue to meet that demand.

[Chris]

The way our banking and economic system operates. Inflation, fraudulent leverage, the boom and bust cycle, private entities controlling the volume and worth of our currency, etc

If it weren't for all the government-induced inflation Americans wouldn't need such high-paying jobs. Granted, government-induced at the behest of a few rich elite. And meddling with the economy to turn natural business cycles into boom and bust bubbles.

[Mac-7]

Shouldn't Disney, in the private sector, being strong, as you slogan, be able to make their own decisions? You seem to want to use government to dictate who they can hire. You are for a free market are you. Just another Republican socialist as George Will said in his recent column on Sanders.

No.

Immigration is a government decision not a Disney decision.

[Common]

but remember...Americans either don't have the required skills or they're just too lazy.

Snip



Snip




http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0

Its all a lie by Koch Bros rich corporate dirtbags, its all about their greed. Ive been saying that for years.
Its not about whether americans are skilled or not, its not about lazyness or UNIONS or the cost of labor. Its all about corporate greed

[Mac-7]

Its all a lie by Koch Bros rich corporate dirtbags, its all about their greed. Ive been saying that for years.
Its not about whether americans are skilled or not, its not about lazyness or UNIONS or the cost of labor. Its all about corporate greed

The Koch brothers do not own Disney.

[Chris]

No.

Immigration is a government decision not a Disney decision.

The government is being asked by Disney to issue the visas, mac. You want government to dictate. I want Disney to decide.

[Chris]

Its all a lie by Koch Bros rich corporate dirtbags, its all about their greed. Ive been saying that for years.
Its not about whether americans are skilled or not, its not about lazyness or UNIONS or the cost of labor. Its all about corporate greed

And would you like mac seek to put Disney out of business? 180000 American employees.

[Mac-7]

The government is being asked by Disney to issue the visas, mac. You want government to dictate. I want Disney to decide.

Just because Disney asks for the visas does not mean they should get them

[The Xl]

If it weren't for all the government-induced inflation Americans wouldn't need such high-paying jobs. Granted, government-induced at the behest of a few rich elite. And meddling with the economy to turn natural business cycles into boom and bust bubbles.
I agree with that to an extent, but when you consider this economic system is sadly the reality, I don't think outsourcing helps on top of that

[Mac-7]

Just because Disney asks for the visas does not mean they should get them


If you have ever seen the living conditions in third world countries I would not have to explain why driving American workers down to that level is a bad thing.

[Ethereal]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?

[Mac-7]

And would you like mac seek to put Disney out of business? 180000 American employees.

Disney does not have to go out of business.

Enough protests and boycott might drive revenues down a percent or two and they would change their policy.

[Mac-7]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?

The first three yes, the last three no.

[Mac-7]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?

My question to you is the alternative to what?

Do you prefer seeing Americans living like Indians or Malaysians?

[The Xl]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?

I think those ships have sailed, but just because something is a reality and possibly even should be that way doesn't mean it's going to be a good thing. It has its positives but definitely has its negatives as well, especially in a society bleeding quality jobs

[Mac-7]

I think those ships have sailed, but just because something is a reality and possibly even should be that way doesn't mean it's going to be a good thing. It has its positives but definitely has its negatives as well, especially in a society bleeding quality jobs

The ships have sailed but they could be recalled if America has to will to do it.

The only thing stopping us is ourselves.

[Chris]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?

That's exactly what some here want, economic central planning.

[Chris]

My question to you is the alternative to what?

Do you prefer seeing Americans living like Indians or Malaysians?


Alternative to dictatorial central planning. Totalitarianism. "Fascism" to misuse your word from yesterday.

[Ethereal]

The first three yes, the last three no.

If you favor economic protectionism, then you favor one of the pillars of isolationism.

And if you start imposing tariffs and quotas on other countries, doesn't that increase the chances of a trade war with them?

Also, what about the higher prices that Americans will have to pay for goods and services as a result of these tariffs and quotas?

[Chris]

Just because Disney asks for the visas does not mean they should get them

IOW, you want the decision centrally planned by government. We get that, mac.

[Chris]

I agree with that to an extent, but when you consider this economic system is sadly the reality, I don't think outsourcing helps on top of that

It's the same as importing or automating. All these things economists generally agree are good for the economy. Restricting trade, business, etc will only stifle the economy more. Take us that much further down the road to serfdom.

[Mac-7]

Alternative to dictatorial central planning. Totalitarianism. "Fascism" to misuse your word from yesterday.

Im not an anarchist who believes in no government.

[Ethereal]

My question to you is the alternative to what?

Do you prefer seeing Americans living like Indians or Malaysians?

Competition and markets increase people's standard of living. Trade is mutually beneficial to both parties. A "conservative" such as yourself should know this already.

[Mac-7]

If you favor economic protectionism, then you favor one of the pillars of isolationism.

And if you start imposing tariffs and quotas on other countries, doesn't that increase the chances of a trade war with them?

Also, what about the higher prices that Americans will have to pay for goods and services as a result of these tariffs and quotas?

I don't equate protectionism with isolation.

But what are we protecting?

The American worker's standard of living which to me is worth protecting.

[Mac-7]

Competition and markets increase people's standard of living. Trade is mutually beneficial to both parties. A "conservative" such as yourself should know this already.

Not so.

the example of Disney proves that is false.

How are the American workers who lost their jobs better off?

the answer of course is that they are not better off.

[Mac-7]

And if you start imposing tariffs and quotas on other countries, doesn't that increase the chances of a trade war with them?



We have a larger economy than any other country yet we run a trade deficit with almost all of them.

They need us more than we need them.

[The Xl]

It's the same as importing or automating. All these things economists generally agree are good for the economy. Restricting trade, business, etc will only stifle the economy more. Take us that much further down the road to serfdom.
There are a lot of kinds of economics with different philosophies and leaning, so to say it's generally agreed is a bit much. Furthermore, to say it's good for the economy is vague, I'd like to see how it affects certain groups specifically.

[Ethereal]

I think those ships have sailed, but just because something is a reality and possibly even should be that way doesn't mean it's going to be a good thing. It has its positives but definitely has its negatives as well, especially in a society bleeding quality jobs

A good thing for who though? Of course this isn't good for the Americans who work at Disney, but it's good for the foreign people getting the jobs and it's good for the consumers of Disney's product. But even the people who are losing their job will have other, possibly better job opportunities. Increased supply of labor (assuming sufficient resources) is generally a good thing and contributes to economic growth and development.

[Ethereal]

Im not an anarchist who believes in no government.

Anarchy does not mean no government it means no rulers. You can have a government without rulers.

[Mac-7]

A good thing for who though? Of course this isn't good for the Americans who work at Disney,

but it's good for the foreign people getting the jobs and it's good for the consumers of Disney's product.

But even the people who are losing their job will have other, possibly better job opportunities. Increased supply of labor (assuming sufficient resources) is generally a good thing and contributes to economic growth and development.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't care if it helps foreigners or not.

I'm an America and my loyalty is to other Americans.

[Mac-7]

Anarchy does not mean no government it means no rulers. You can have a government without rulers.

Whatever.

Chris bitches about every function of government as a dictatorship so to him I think anarchy means no government.

[Ethereal]

I don't equate protectionism with isolation.

It's economic isolationism.


But what are we protecting?

Special interest groups.


The American worker's standard of living which to me is worth protecting.

The American worker is also the American consumer. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[Ethereal]

Not so.

the example of Disney proves that is false.

So you are against markets and competition then? What would you prefer? A socialist dictatorship?


How are the American workers who lost their jobs better off?

They're not, but the Americans consumers who buy Disney's product are better off because they get to pay less money for the same or even more amount of product. Not to mention the American investors who profit off Disney. They benefit as well. And those consumers savings and investor profits go back into the economy, creating more job and better job opportunities for the American workers who lost their jobs at Disney.


the answer of course is that they are not better off.

Nobody ever said that markets would be perfect, only that they would be the optimal economic system in minimizing scarcity. Let me know when you find a better system.

[Ethereal]

We have a larger economy than any other country yet we run a trade deficit with almost all of them.

They need us more than we need them.

Trade is MUTUALLY beneficial. BOTH parties perceive a benefit, otherwise they would not trade in the first place. It's the result of comparative advantages and specialization.

[Ethereal]

I can't speak for everyone but I personally don't care if it helps foreigners or not.

I'm an America and my loyalty is to other Americans.

So then let them stay in America and become American and you won't have to worry about it.

[Ethereal]

On a large scale, I favor decentralization over anarchy. That means I don't really care about what economic system the people in Florida have because I don't live there or anywhere near it. If people in Florida want to impose tariffs and quotas on their own economy, then I am not going to try and stop them. But because we are all in this collectivist suicide pact known as the "union", I am forced to assert a generalized application of free market economics within America. If we could decentralize this pact to some extent, then such arguments would not even be necessary.

[Mac-7]

It's economic isolationism.

I want to isolate their poverty from our high standard of living.

What you are proposing is to merge the economy of India with America.

But the typical Indian does not have a pot to piss in.

So for America the only way is down.

[Mac-7]

So then let them stay in America and become American and you won't have to worry about it.

We have more than enough poor people already.

They should remain in their own country.

[Mac-7]

Trade is MUTUALLY beneficial.

BOTH parties perceive a benefit, otherwise they would not trade in the first place. It's the result of comparative advantages and specialization.

In theory yes.

But every year America is $300 billion poorer because of our trade deficit with china.

[Calypso Jones]

The way our banking and economic system operates. Inflation, fraudulent leverage, the boom and bust cycle, private entities controlling the volume and worth of our currency, etc

[MisterVeritis]

Just because Disney asks for the visas does not mean they should get them
I am pretty sure lots of money exchanged hands to buy those visas.

Now if we could just outsource political positions...Then any one of us could buy a secretary of state or a senator. I do hear they are cheaper by the dozen.

[Chris]

Trade is MUTUALLY beneficial. BOTH parties perceive a benefit, otherwise they would not trade in the first place. It's the result of comparative advantages and specialization.


In theory yes.

But every year America is $300 billion poorer because of our trade deficit with china.


No, mac, in reality. People trade what they value less for what they value more. It's thus mutually beneficial, wealth is generated.

Your statistic is a theoretical abstraction. The US doesn't trade with China, only individuals do. All US dollars going to China must eventually return to purchase US goods and services.

[Chris]

I am pretty sure lots of money exchanged hands to buy those visas.

Now if we could just outsource political positions...Then any one of us could buy a secretary of state or a senator. I do hear they are cheaper by the dozen.



They've all been bought and paid for many times over.

[MisterVeritis]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?
I think a five year moratorium on all immigration, legal and illegal is appropriate. We need to clean out the IslamoNAZI populations the The Insane One is importing as rapidly as he can. And we need to rid ourselves of every illegal alien we can find. Bus them to the water's edge and then let them walk home.

[Chris]

Whatever.

Chris bitches about every function of government as a dictatorship so to him I think anarchy means no government.

Again, showing complete lack of comprehension...or is it deliberate?

[MisterVeritis]

In theory yes.

But every year America is $300 billion poorer because of our trade deficit with china.
I disagree. We are poorer because the government is purchasing a very large amount of poorness. We print phony money and we import massive numbers of the world's poorest, sickest, dumbest people in order to change the nature of the citizen in a manner more to the liking of the Marxist-Democrat party.

[Mac-7]

No, mac, in reality. People trade what they value less for what they value more. It's thus mutually beneficial, wealth is generated.

Your statistic is a theoretical abstraction. The US doesn't trade with China, only individuals do. All US dollars going to China must eventually return to purchase US goods and services.

No chris.

governments set the rules for trade between nations.

[Mac-7]

I disagree. We are poorer because the government is purchasing a very large amount of poorness. We print phony money and we import massive numbers of the world's poorest, sickest, dumbest people in order to change the nature of the citizen in a manner more to the liking of the Marxist-Democrat party.

The workers who lost $300 billion worth of wages are poorer.

[Chris]

The workers who lost $300 billion worth of wages are poorer.

How on earth do you manage to go from "But every year America is $300 billion poorer because of our trade deficit with china." to "The workers who lost $300 billion worth of wages are poorer." ?

[Chris]

No chris.

governments set the rules for trade between nations.

Non sequitur to what I said about mutually beneficial trade.

And wrong again. Governments do not set rules for trade between nations. The US cannot regulate China any more than China can regulate the US. All governments can do is regulate the people they govern.

[MisterVeritis]

The workers who lost $300 billion worth of wages are poorer.
We can agree to disagree.

Before we do am I poorer because Alabama has a trade deficit with Georgia?

[The Xl]

A good thing for who though? Of course this isn't good for the Americans who work at Disney, but it's good for the foreign people getting the jobs and it's good for the consumers of Disney's product. But even the people who are losing their job will have other, possibly better job opportunities. Increased supply of labor (assuming sufficient resources) is generally a good thing and contributes to economic growth and development.
Right, and if the phenomenon was limited to just Disney, I'd agree, but this sort of thing is happening at great frequency on a widespread scale, and I just wonder when the benefits begin to be outweighed by the negatives

[The Xl]

Ehh...were you trying to respond to me or something?

[Calypso Jones]

Ehh...were you trying to respond to me or something?


well I was in my post way above and my computer locked up. Now I can't remember what I wanted to say....so .....never mind. LOL

[Mister D]

I think I will weigh in tomorrow. Interesting developments.

[Mac-7]

How on earth do you manage to go from "But every year America is $300 billion poorer because of our trade deficit with china." to "The workers who lost $300 billion worth of wages are poorer." ?

Because they are poorer.

Their jobs left the United States and that put them at an economic disadvantage.

[Mac-7]

Non sequitur to what I said about mutually beneficial trade.

And wrong again. Governments do not set rules for trade between nations. The US cannot regulate China any more than China can regulate the US. All governments can do is regulate the people they govern.

A $300 billion trade deficit to just one country does not suggest mutually beneficial trade for the US.

[Chris]

Because they are poorer.

Their jobs left the United States and that put them at an economic disadvantage.


Good luck showing that, mac. You're like many, short-sighted when it comes to economics, seeing only what is immediately seen, but not looking past that to what is unseen. You don't know that these displaced Disney employees will not find similar or better jobs. For a conservative you don't seem to look at unforseen consequences.

Here's an essay by Bastiat you might do well to read: What Is Seen and What Is Not Seen (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html).

[Chris]

A $300 billion trade deficit to just one country does not suggest mutually beneficial trade for the US.

You persist in this mistaken notion the US as a nation trades with China as a nation. People trade, not nations. And, once again, failing to look past what's immediately seen to what's unseen, US$, while they may be traded around a bit, can only eventually be used to purchase US goods and services.

My guess is you're going to ignore these points and just repeat your nonsense. You remind me much of cigar in that respect.

[Mac-7]

We can agree to disagree.

Before we do am I poorer because Alabama has a trade deficit with Georgia?

You don't need a passport and a visa to move to Georgia if that's where the company you work for moves to.

But jobs lost to china leave an American worker stranded.

Also in a way you are poorer even if you keep your job because the state government has less revenue to be taxed and therefore less money to run the Alabama state government.

Meaning your roads could have more potholes or fewer state police to investigate crime.

The states get it as they compete with each other to attract companies to move there and bring new jobs with them.

[Common]

So you are against markets and competition then? What would you prefer? A socialist dictatorship?



They're not, but the Americans consumers who buy Disney's product are better off because they get to pay less money for the same or even more amount of product. Not to mention the American investors who profit off Disney. They benefit as well. And those consumers savings and investor profits go back into the economy, creating more job and better job opportunities for the American workers who lost their jobs at Disney.



Nobody ever said that markets would be perfect, only that they would be the optimal economic system in minimizing scarcity. Let me know when you find a better system.

That is so wrong its laughable, I live in fla and when this story first hit about disney just throwing long time employees under the bus for cheap labor in that SAME article was a price increase for park entry.

Since then theyve raised the park fees again. This is the same thing as OUTSOURCING the only difference is Disney cant move the fuckin park to China, so theyre just dicking american workers for more PROFIT.

NO ONE can justify this greed to me.

If you think this kind of crap by our corporations is good. Than no more AMERICAN marines go to fuckin war and DIE to enhance their profits. Send indian, chinese, malaysian, philliopino and mexicans Marines

[Mac-7]

That is so wrong its laughable, I live in fla and when this story first hit about disney just throwing long time employees under the bus for cheap labor in that SAME article was a price increase for park entry.

Since then theyve raised the park fees again. This is the same thing as OUTSOURCING the only difference is Disney cant move the $#@!in park to China, so theyre just dicking american workers for more PROFIT.

NO ONE can justify this greed to me.

If you think this kind of crap by our corporations is good. Than no more AMERICAN marines go to $#@!in war and DIE to enhance their profits. Send indian, chinese, malaysian, philliopino and mexicans Marines

Free traders don't care about any of your arguments.

They can't relate to Americans more than foreigners.

They are one-worlders.

Here is another quote from Ethereal in post #48:




Of course this isn't good for the Americans who work at Disney, but it's good for the foreign people getting the jobs

[Chris]

That is so wrong its laughable, I live in fla and when this story first hit about disney just throwing long time employees under the bus for cheap labor in that SAME article was a price increase for park entry.

Since then theyve raised the park fees again. This is the same thing as OUTSOURCING the only difference is Disney cant move the fuckin park to China, so theyre just dicking american workers for more PROFIT.

NO ONE can justify this greed to me.

If you think this kind of crap by our corporations is good. Than no more AMERICAN marines go to fuckin war and DIE to enhance their profits. Send indian, chinese, malaysian, philliopino and mexicans Marines



The argument here is that you just plain don't know, common, that prices may have raised less with hiring foreigners, or that keeping Americans may have priced Disney out of the market. No one can really know this, but you make your assumptions, then forget they're assumptions and assume them true.

[Chris]

Free traders don't care about any of your arguments.

They can't relate to Americans more than foreigners.

They are one-worlders.

Here is another quote from Ethereal in post #48:



Again this MO arises: "I'm right, you're wrong, there's something wrong with you. /discussion." This MO seems to be common with those who cannot argue messages so they argue messengers.

[Common]

The argument here is that you just plain don't know, common, that prices may have raised less with hiring foreigners, or that keeping Americans may have priced Disney out of the market. No one can really know this, but you make your assumptions, then forget they're assumptions and assume them true.

The argument here is that you are just pulling excuses out of the air to try and make disney look good.

Disney is a HUGE corporations the few THOUSANDS they are going to save by screwing americans will eaten up by just floridians that are incensed about it and wont set foot in that park again. There are many other attractions in fla..

No matter how you try and be a good conservative and excuse what theyve done a few bucks out of pure greed, you lose.

This is just what our country needs isnt it chris ? Corporations that cant leave the US and outsource, will insource cheaper labor and put americans out of work.

So you must be all for No minimum wage so McDonalds can hire immigrants for 4.00 an hour.

Lets do this the "CONSERVATIVE WAY" Lets outsource all the jobs we can and INSOURCE all the cheap labor we can to replace american workers. THEN

End Foodstamps, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and all other safety nets. Let americans either eat cake or starting killing the ones that took everything from them.

[Mac-7]

Again this MO arises: "I'm right, you're wrong, there's something wrong with you. /discussion." This MO seems to be common with those who cannot argue messages so they argue messengers.

I'm reacting to the words you write.

If your own thoughts are too shocking to acknowledge then you need new thoughts.

[Mac-7]

The argument here is that you are just pulling excuses out of the air to try and make disney look good.

Disney is a HUGE corporations the few THOUSANDS they are going to save by screwing americans will eaten up by just floridians that are incensed about it and wont set foot in that park again. There are many other attractions in fla..

No matter how you try and be a good conservative and excuse what theyve done a few bucks out of pure greed, you lose.

This is just what our country needs isnt it chris ? Corporations that cant leave the US and outsource, will insource cheaper labor and put americans out of work.

So you must be all for No minimum wage so McDonalds can hire immigrants for 4.00 an hour.

Lets do this the "CONSERVATIVE WAY" Lets outsource all the jobs we can and INSOURCE all the cheap labor we can to replace american workers. THEN

End Foodstamps, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and all other safety nets. Let americans either eat cake or starting killing the ones that took everything from them.

Chris is not a conservative.

[Chris]

I'm reacting to the words you write.

If your own thoughts are too shocking to acknowledge then you need new thoughts.

No you're not. All you seem capable of it repeating party slogans and mocking others because they say things you can't comprehend. Besides, uh, mac, you were commenting on Ethereal.

[Chris]

Chris is not a conservative.

Again this MO arises: "I'm right, you're wrong, there's something wrong with you. /discussion." You are incapable of discussion.

[Mac-7]

Again this MO arises: "I'm right, you're wrong, there's something wrong with you. /discussion." You are incapable of discussion.

You have never labeled yourself a conservative.

[Mac-7]

No you're not. All you seem capable of it repeating party slogans and mocking others because they say things you can't comprehend. Besides, uh, mac, you were commenting on Ethereal.

I posted Ethereal's own words.

Here they are again:


Of course this isn't good for the Americans who work at Disney, but it's good for the foreign people getting the jobs

And that neatly sums up how the free traders think.

Its bad for Americans but hey, no problem because its good for the foreigners who took the jobs.

[Chris]

The argument here is that you are just pulling excuses out of the air to try and make disney look good.

Disney is a HUGE corporations the few THOUSANDS they are going to save by screwing americans will eaten up by just floridians that are incensed about it and wont set foot in that park again. There are many other attractions in fla..

No matter how you try and be a good conservative and excuse what theyve done a few bucks out of pure greed, you lose.

This is just what our country needs isnt it chris ? Corporations that cant leave the US and outsource, will insource cheaper labor and put americans out of work.

So you must be all for No minimum wage so McDonalds can hire immigrants for 4.00 an hour.

Lets do this the "CONSERVATIVE WAY" Lets outsource all the jobs we can and INSOURCE all the cheap labor we can to replace american workers. THEN

End Foodstamps, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and all other safety nets. Let americans either eat cake or starting killing the ones that took everything from them.


I'm pulling arguments out of the air?


Disney is a HUGE corporations the few THOUSANDS they are going to save by screwing americans will eaten up by just floridians that are incensed about it and wont set foot in that park again. There are many other attractions in fla..

Assumptions pulled out of the air in that run-on sentence: Disney is so huge costs don't matter. They are screwing Americans. Floridians are incensed and won't go anymore. The implication being this could close Disney down, killing 180,000 jobs. Contradicting Disney is so huge.


No matter how you try and be a good conservative and excuse what theyve done a few bucks out of pure greed, you lose.

You assume I lose...what? You assume I'm a conservative. You assume I'm excusing. You assume it's a few bucks. You assume it's greed.



You're full of assumptions, that you assume, magically, are true.


Did you have an argument with what I posted?

[Chris]

You have never labeled yourself a conservative.

And that matters? Instead of arguing the topic you throw labels around as a form of name calling. You can't argue.

[Mac-7]

You assume I lose...what? You assume I'm a conservative. You assume I'm excusing. You assume it's a few bucks. You assume it's greed.



You're full of assumptions, that you assume, magically, are true.





And that matters? Instead of arguing the topic you throw labels around as a form of name calling. You can't argue.

I didn't label you a conservative.

[Chris]

I posted Ethereal's own words.

Here they are again:



And that neatly sums up how the free traders think.

Its bad for Americans but hey, its good for the foreigners who took the jobs.



I posted Ethereal's own words.

Just above you said "I'm reacting to the words you write." make up your mind. Do you even know?



And that neatly sums up how the free traders think.

How's that? That is benefits foreigners? Again, you stop short with what's immediately seen and overlook unseen consequences: Earlier Ethereal stated, and I explained how, trade is mutually beneficial. So if it benefits foreigners, it benefits us.



Its bad for Americans but hey, its good for the foreigners who took the jobs.

That's your thinking, not the thinking of free traders as I just explained.

[Chris]

I didn't label you a conservative.

You label me not a conservative.

As if coming from you that is even meaningful in anyway other than cheap, meaningless name calling.

[Common]

I'm pulling arguments out of the air?



Assumptions pulled out of the air in that run-on sentence: Disney is so huge costs don't matter. They are screwing Americans. Floridians are incensed and won't go anymore. The implication being this could close Disney down, killing 180,000 jobs. Contradicting Disney is so huge.



You assume I lose...what? You assume I'm a conservative. You assume I'm excusing. You assume it's a few bucks. You assume it's greed.


Did you have an argument with what I posted?




You're full of assumptions, that you assume, magically, are true.


Chris all you have ever done since the day Ive hit this forum is cheerlead and argue for anything corporate america does.

All those that excuse outsourcing that puts millions of americans out of work and no excuses insourcing to put americans out of work for GREEEEEEEEEED. Is all for murdering the country.

What does the country do with all these out of work Americans.

Many are just fine with NO MINIMUM wage so minimum wage jobs can hire immigrants who will work for less than minimum wage.

Now they are IN sourcing and replacing more skilled americans and putting them out of work. Whats next thats going to be excused by conservatives.

The rich know damn well there isnt enough middleclass to carry the country tax wise. They know they have outsourced and replaced millions of workers. Thats WHY they are so concerned about the only place left to replace the taxs. The ones that CREATED this mess.

Your full of hot corporate air

[Chris]

...

Nothing to say?


Let me try and pick your emotion-laden nonsense out...


Chris all you have ever done since the day Ive hit this forum is cheerlead and argue for anything corporate america does.

False. I'm pro-market not pro-business.


What does the country do with all these out of work Americans.....

They find other jobs or retire.


The rich know damn well there isnt enough middleclass to carry the country tax wise. They know they have outsourced and replaced millions of workers. Thats WHY they are so concerned about the only place left to replace the taxs. The ones that CREATED this mess.

More assumptions. How do you know what the rich know?

[Common]

Nothing to say?

Look up I said it and clearly too and your songs and dances wont change it.

I dont do the endless back and forth posts with you anymore, the are redundant and border on trolling.
Ive said what I wanted to say.

[Mac-7]

You label me not a conservative.

As if coming from you that is even meaningful in anyway other than cheap, meaningless name calling.

Huh?

thats the silliest thing you have said today.

[Chris]

Look up I said it and clearly too and your songs and dances wont change it.

I dont do the endless back and forth posts with you anymore, the are redundant and border on trolling.
Ive said what I wanted to say.



And like mac you turn from arguing the message to arguing the messenger. MO: "I'm right, you're wrong, something wrong with you. /discussion."

[Chris]

Huh?

thats the silliest thing you have said today.


IOW you cannot argue it.


Let me know when you think you can argue the topic, mac.

[Mac-7]

You're full of assumptions, that you assume, magically, are true.


Chris all you have ever done since the day Ive hit this forum is cheerlead and argue for anything corporate america does.

All those that excuse outsourcing that puts millions of americans out of work and no excuses insourcing to put americans out of work for GREEEEEEEEEED. Is all for murdering the country.

What does the country do with all these out of work Americans.

Many are just fine with NO MINIMUM wage so minimum wage jobs can hire immigrants who will work for less than minimum wage.

Now they are IN sourcing and replacing more skilled americans and putting them out of work. Whats next thats going to be excused by conservatives.

The rich know $#@! well there isnt enough middleclass to carry the country tax wise. They know they have outsourced and replaced millions of workers. Thats WHY they are so concerned about the only place left to replace the taxs. The ones that CREATED this mess.

Your full of hot corporate air

You sure are dense.

Chris is NOT a conservative and he supports free trade and what Disney is doing.

I AM a conservative and I support your side of the argument.

But you just float along on your cloud aware of nothing.

[Chris]

You sure are dense.

Chris is NOT a conservative and he supports free trade and what Disney is doing.

I AM a conservative and I support your side of the argument.

But you just float along on your cloud aware of nothing.



Stop attacking other members, mac. Try, for once in your miserable little life to address the topic in a meaningful way.

Also, when you try to summarize what I think, get it right. I am free market. I support in principle the right of companies in the free market to hire whom they want. That doesn't mean I support Disney or any particular business--I'm pro-market, not pro-business. As opposed to your desire to centrally plan and dictate what companies can do. If you care to discuss this opposition between us, let me know.


While I'm at it, get your labels right. You are a Republican, I am not. You are not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

[MisterVeritis]

Because they are poorer.

Their jobs left the United States and that put them at an economic disadvantage.
Am I poorer because Alabama has a trade deficit with Georgia?

[MisterVeritis]

You don't need a passport and a visa to move to Georgia if that's where the company you work for moves to.

But jobs lost to china leave an American worker stranded.

Also in a way you are poorer even if you keep your job because the state government has less revenue to be taxed and therefore less money to run the Alabama state government.

Meaning your roads could have more potholes or fewer state police to investigate crime.

The states get it as they compete with each other to attract companies to move there and bring new jobs with them.
You did not actually answer the question I asked you.

The right answer is that I am not poorer because Alabama has a trade deficit with Georgia. People in both places are better off.

Should the government be aiding private companies displace American workers because individuals receive large campaign contributions by bringing in foreign labor?

[Mac-7]

Stop attacking other members, mac. Try, for once in your miserable little life to address the topic in a meaningful way.

Also, when you try to summarize what I think, get it right. I am free market. I support in principle the right of companies in the free market to hire whom they want. That doesn't mean I support Disney or any particular business--I'm pro-market, not pro-business. As opposed to your desire to centrally plan and dictate what companies can do. If you care to discuss this opposition between us, let me know.


While I'm at it, get your labels right. You are a Republican, I am not. You are not a conservative by any stretch of the imagination.

Do you claim to be a conservative?

If so you have bastardized the term beyond recognition.

You say you are free market not free trade.

They are one in the same.

But you sneer at the suggestion government should be involved in trade since you make the weird claim that nations don't trade, but instead individuals do.

[Chris]

Do you claim to be a conservative?

If so you have bastardized the term beyond recognition.

You say you are free market not free trade.

They are one in the same.

But you sneer at the suggestion government should be involved in trade since you make the weird claim that nations don't trade, but instead individuals do.



You really don't get the difference between Republican and conservative, do you.



You say you are free market not free trade.

Of course they're the same, and no I didn't say I'm for one and against the other, what I said was I'm pro-market and not pro-business. See the difference? Understand it?

[Chris]

Here, mac, learn what economist say of your policies: The Neo-Mercantilist Hysteria Over US Trade Deficits (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/45600-The-Neo-Mercantilist-Hysteria-Over-US-Trade-Deficits).

[Mac-7]

You did not actually answer the question I asked you.

The right answer is that I am not poorer because Alabama has a trade deficit with Georgia. People in both places are better off.

Should the government be aiding private companies displace American workers because individuals receive large campaign contributions by bringing in foreign labor?

You personally may not feel poorer.

But as I said as wealth is transferred from your state to another that means your state is poorer.

Less money in circulation means less taxes paid to the state and less spending with local businesses.

But since we are one people under one flag trade deficits among states is not considered to be an issue.

However wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern.

[Chris]

You personally may not feel poorer.

But as I said as wealth is transferred from your state to another that means your state is poorer.

Less money in circulation means less taxes paid to the state and less spending with local businesses.

But since we are one people under one flag trade deficits among states is not considered to be an issue.

However wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern.


After you read the link I provided, mac, try and reasonably explain "wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern". Good luck. The first correction you'll need to make is it's not wealth transferred but US dollars.

[MisterVeritis]

You personally may not feel poorer.

But as I said as wealth is transferred from your state to another that means your state is poorer.

Less money in circulation means less taxes paid to the state and less spending with local businesses.

But since we are one people under one flag trade deficits among states is not considered to be an issue.

However wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern.
We are all better off when each place does what it does best and we freely trade amongst ourselves. Trade deficits amongst the states is not considered to be an issue because it is not an issue. It is equally uninteresting even if a foreign country is involved and for the same reasons.

Should the state support a private company's desire to bring in low waged labor to displace Americans?

[Mac-7]

Here, mac, learn what economist say of your policies: The Neo-Mercantilist Hysteria Over US Trade Deficits (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/45600-The-Neo-Mercantilist-Hysteria-Over-US-Trade-Deficits).



If it makes you happy I concede that you are being misinformed by real academics.

But there are almost as many differences of opinion among economists as there are economists.

[Mac-7]

We are all better off when each place does what it does best and we freely trade amongst ourselves.

Trade deficits amongst the states is not considered to be an issue because it is not an issue. It is equally uninteresting even if a foreign country is involved and for the same reasons.

Should the state support a private company's desire to bring in low waged labor to displace Americans?

Between states?

Sure.

But that's because we are all Americans no matter which state we live in.


Should the state support a private company's desire to bring in low waged labor to displace Americans?

are you kidding?

not no but hell no.

[Chris]

After you read the link I provided, mac, try and reasonably explain "wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern". Good luck. The first correction you'll need to make is it's not wealth transferred but US dollars.


If it makes you happy I concede that you are being misinformed by real academics.

But there are almost as many differences of opinion among economists as there are economists.



IOW, you're incapable of arguing your claim. I get it.

[Mac-7]

After you read the link I provided, mac, try and reasonably explain "wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern". Good luck. The first correction you'll need to make is it's not wealth transferred but US dollars.

I'm not going to engage you in trench warfare because its pointless.

You COULD be right but I don't think so.

And I don't need an economist to tell me what to think.

I do that for myself.

[Chris]

I'm not going to engage you in trench warfare because its pointless.

You COULD be right but I don't think so.

And I don't need an economist to tell me what to think.

I do that for myself.

Trench warfare? You were asked to explain your claim.

[Chris]

These are facts, mac, from The Neo-Mercantilist Hysteria Over US Trade Deficits (https://mises.org/library/neo-mercantilist-hysteria-over-us-trade-deficits):


....every dollar in excess of US exports that is spent by US residents on imports of goods and services from abroad is either spent by foreigners on the purchase of US assets, i.e., invested in US stocks, bonds, bank deposits, real estate, physical capital or are used by foreigners to pay interest and dividends owed to US residents who own foreign assets. In other words, not a single dollar leaves the US as a result of the trade deficit.

They are not opinions, they are facts.

Your claim that "wealth transferred from America to foreign countries is a concern" is utterly false on the facts.

My guess is even informed of the facts you will go on repeating such slogans.

[MisterVeritis]

"Should the state support a private company's desire to bring in low waged labor to displace Americans?"


are you kidding?

not no but hell no.
In my opinion this is the key to this problem. The trade deficit is not relevant.

[Mac-7]

Trench warfare? You were asked to explain your claim.

We have been debating this topic since I got here.

No matter what either of us says the needle never moves.

[Dr. Who]

What's the alternative? Economic protectionism? Tariffs? Quotas? Embargoes? Trade wars? Isolationism?
Might that not mean that everyone shares the burden, rather than only some sharing the burden? In the other scenario, the wealthy reap great rewards, while the middle class is in a race to the bottom.

[Dr. Who]

It's the same as importing or automating. All these things economists generally agree are good for the economy. Restricting trade, business, etc will only stifle the economy more. Take us that much further down the road to serfdom.
When stimulating the economy apparently means primarily providing jobs for people in other countries at the expense of one's own country, who does it benefit? The time when America was reaping it's greatest financial rewards was actually when it was protectionist. People only started losing ground when it became possible for companies to take their business off shore and when "free trade" agreements were negotiated.

[Mac-7]

Might that not mean that everyone shares the burden, rather than only some sharing the burden? In the other scenario, the wealthy reap great rewards, while the middle class is in a race to the bottom.

Everyone blames the wealthy.

Before free trade came along the wealthy were blamed for getting rich on the backs of American workers in the US factories that were protected by tariffs.

Now the rich are hated for getting rich on the backs of foreign workers instead.

My thinking is if libs must hate the rich for something let it be protectionism that provides good jobs to American workers.