PDA

View Full Version : Military leaders against further involvement in Iraq



Peter1469
06-14-2015, 05:22 AM
Military leaders against further involvement in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-white-houses-iraq-debate-military-brass-pushed-for-doing-less/2015/06/13/8db17e30-1138-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html?hpid=z1)

Not surprising- they are the ones who know first hand that our occupation of Iraq was fruitless. Necons ought to be jailed.


As President Obama was weighing how to halt Islamic State advances in Iraq, some of the strongest resistance to boosting U.S. involvement came from a surprising place: a war-weary military that has grown increasingly skeptical that force can prevail in a conflict fueled by political and religious grievances.
Top military officials, who have typically argued for more combat power to overcome battlefield setbacks over the past decade, emerged in recent White House debates as consistent voices of caution in Iraq.

Their shift reflects the paucity of good options and a reluctance to suffer more combat deaths in a war in which America’s political leaders are far from committed and Iraqis have shown limited will to fight.

“After the past 12 years in the Middle East, there is a real focus by senior military leaders on understanding what the endgame is,” said a military official, “and asking the question, ‘To what end are we doing this?’ ”


The military’s reluctance belies a prevalent narrative in Washington of a cautious president holding back his aggressive generals. The Pentagon’s position was most evident in the White House debates after the surprising retreat of Iraqi army and police in Ramadi (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/fall-of-ramadi-raises-new-questions-about-us-strategy-in-iraq/2015/05/19/aca4b2c6-fe50-11e4-8b6c-0dcce21e223d_story.html) last month.

Common
06-14-2015, 05:38 AM
Good, some one needs to stand up for our troops and give them a damn break

Ransom
06-14-2015, 08:24 AM
Common, isn't the break needed in AFGHANISTAN? Obama sent 30,000 US troops. In a surge with no strategy, zero leadership, Obama sent McChrystal to AF where Stanley didn't hear from the President for months. We still have 10,000 troops in Afghanistan. Today, Common.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 08:28 AM
The tribes in Iraq and Afghanistan reject Jeffersonian Democracy.

They need to be left alone or given a despot to rule them.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 08:38 AM
For the love of God. These military leaders are merely asking to what end. What is the end game? What are we doing? Read that Washington Post article, they're discussing options that they've been explaining for months become fewer everyday. Most advice caution, that US air strikes and policies of making allies with Sunnis and Kurds are working to 'reduce' ISIS gains. Other are advising helicopters, Pete. Lethal but drastically increase risks and many see no reason to increase risk without reward. You know what they're asking for Pete, your jail comment just some quacking you heard while waddling around points Left of here. These are the 'hard options' you and I have spoken to endlessly, this a great article exposing so much. ISIS has become stronger, our options shrink daily. We waited..... obfuscated..... argued.......... the threat grew. Americans beheaded, territories taken, we waited. We argued sideshow. Options became fewer, staying power established, governments of Iraq and Syria in danger of toppling, the Iraq military in flight, we waited. We argued a little more. Let em focus on each other, they pose no threat.

Now asked to deploy, our military leaders are spelling it out. And asking for direction. From their Commander in Chief. Cause it looks like another Afghanistan. Make me headlines military strategies.

maineman
06-14-2015, 08:44 AM
and some on here wanted us to stay even LONGER in Iraq - even after the Iraqi government had negotiated a date for our withdrawal - some neocons on here wanted us to stay regardless.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 08:45 AM
For the love of God. These military leaders are merely asking to what end. What is the end game? What are we doing? Read that Washington Post article, they're discussing options that they've been explaining for months become fewer everyday. Most advice caution, that US air strikes and policies of making allies with Sunnis and Kurds are working to 'reduce' ISIS gains. Other are advising helicopters, Pete. Lethal but drastically increase risks and many see no reason to increase risk without reward. You know what they're asking for Pete, your jail comment just some quacking you heard while waddling around points Left of here. These are the 'hard options' you and I have spoken to endlessly, this a great article exposing so much. ISIS has become stronger, our options shrink daily. We waited..... obfuscated..... argued.......... the threat grew. Americans beheaded, territories taken, we waited. We argued sideshow. Options became fewer, staying power established, governments of Iraq and Syria in danger of toppling, the Iraq military in flight, we waited. We argued a little more. Let em focus on each other, they pose no threat.

Now asked to deploy, our military leaders are spelling it out. And asking for direction. From their Commander in Chief. Cause it looks like another Afghanistan. Make me headlines military strategies.

Hush child. Adults are posting.

When you grow up, your posts will be welcome.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 08:46 AM
The tribes in Iraq and Afghanistan reject Jeffersonian Democracy.

They need to be left alone or given a despot to rule them.

The ME 'breaking down' from the West's policies of despot rule, Pete. Voices of self-determination impossible to silence now, the Assad's are who have weakening staying power.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 08:48 AM
Iraq is a failed state and is not a nation in the technical sense of the word.

The US has an interest in the region, but not an immediate interest. We need to see how things play out. After all, if the Islamic State becomes a real state, bombing IS targets is less of a concern so far as civilian casualties go. Killing Iraqi civilians is bad in the press.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 08:49 AM
The ME 'breaking down' from the West's policies of despot rule, Pete. Voices of self-determination impossible to silence now, the Assad's are who have weakening staying power.

Exactly. The era of Sykes Picot is collapsing. I have said that over and over. Glad to see you finally got it.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 08:54 AM
Hush child. Adults are posting.

When you grow up, your posts will be welcome.

Name calling and taunts=Ace Ransom paints yet another Peter argument marker on his fuselage.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 09:06 AM
Name calling and taunts=Ace Ransom paints yet another Peter argument marker on his fuselage.
Incorrect. Change your posting style or leave.

Stop acting like a spoiled child and post like an adult.

Attack other members at your own peril.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 09:11 AM
Exactly. The era of Sykes Picot is collapsing. I have said that over and over. Glad to see you finally got it.

I would have 'got it' earlier if I'd known history and the Arab Israeli Wars and Palestinian uprisings. I reckon then I 'got it' the day the Shah couldn't prevent an Islamic Revolution in Persia. The Mullahs then used the real and historic threat of its' Arab neighbor Iraq to give itself legitimacy. Now, I realize many Observer's here considered Saddam a 'stabilizing despot', but you must understand, the Mullahs didn't.

Saddam invading both Kuwait and Iran more evidence of 'got it' huh Pete? The end of long standing regimes in Egypt and Libya resulting in chaos making us all safer even more proof. An ISIS that now threatens to unseat Iraq and Syria's government and you're taking victory laps for claiming the earth isn't flat?

I thought we already had a Captain Obvious.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 09:14 AM
I would have 'got it' earlier if I'd known history and the Arab Israeli Wars and Palestinian uprisings. I reckon then I 'got it' the day the Shah couldn't prevent an Islamic Revolution in Persia. The Mullahs then used the real and historic threat of its' Arab neighbor Iraq to give itself legitimacy. Now, I realize many Observer's here considered Saddam a 'stabilizing despot', but you must understand, the Mullahs didn't.

Saddam invading both Kuwait and Iran more evidence of 'got it' huh Pete? The end of long standing regimes in Egypt and Libya resulting in chaos making us all safer even more proof. An ISIS that now threatens to unseat Iraq and Syria's government and you're taking victory laps for claiming the earth isn't flat?

I thought we already had a Captain Obvious.

Typically, when one quotes a post they address the post.

Sykes Picot created Western style nations on a geography not suited for it. That system was held together by created monarchies and despots. The system is collapsing. It is a normal cycle.

You shouldn't get to worked up over it.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 09:22 AM
Incorrect. Change your posting style or leave.

Stop acting like a spoiled child and post like an adult.

Attack other members at your own peril.

I don't see members 'attacked' here. Your thread start from the Washington Post is being rolled out. And a happy face cookie cutter applied. Military leaders are asking for clarity here, Pete. Stepping up operations to what end. Most abhorred the decision to leave, predicted this would happen, have been screaming for support while better options remained on the table. Now, with an entrenched enemy, and with fewer options, the risk/reward decisions must be made. One of the options discussed in the article are US helicopters. Even civilian leadership aware of those risks, the chopper going down killing Special Forces some years ago just one example.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 09:26 AM
I don't see members 'attacked' here. Your thread start from the Washington Post is being rolled out. And a happy face cookie cutter applied. Military leaders are asking for clarity here, Pete. Stepping up operations to what end. Most abhorred the decision to leave, predicted this would happen, have been screaming for support while better options remained on the table. Now, with an entrenched enemy, and with fewer options, the risk/reward decisions must be made. One of the options discussed in the article are US helicopters. Even civilian leadership aware of those risks, the chopper going down killing Special Forces some years ago just one example.
Thanks for posting like an adult

What is Iraq willing to do to help itself out?

Ransom
06-14-2015, 09:26 AM
Typically, when one quotes a post they address the post.

Sykes Picot created Western style nations on a geography not suited for it. That system was held together by created monarchies and despots. The system is collapsing. It is a normal cycle.

You shouldn't get to worked up over it.

It created what it could from the mess that was the Ottoman Empire after that Empire's suicidal decision to get involved in the Great War. Where like many other empires and governments... it didn't survive.

I addressed the post above.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 09:29 AM
It created what it could from the mess that was the Ottoman Empire after that Empire's suicidal decision to get involved in the Great War. Where like many other empires and governments... it didn't survive.

I addressed the post above.

Sykes Picot was fundamentally different from the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans let the local tribes rule locally so long as they paid taxes and gave bodies for the military.

The European model was to create artificial states that split the natural tribes up and created groups of antagonists who would always fight each other. It was done on purpose, and didn't really work out well.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 09:32 AM
Thanks for posting like an adult

What is Iraq willing to do to help itself out?

You mean, after we left? What are they willing to do given help..... is their decision based on any western assistance? What of al-Qaeda who is still a threat, everyone agrees is a threat to our homeland as well?

And what does Iraq need to do queries assume Iraq has a problem. An ISIS with staying power perhaps?

Ransom
06-14-2015, 09:33 AM
Sykes Picot was fundamentally different from the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans let the local tribes rule locally so long as they paid taxes and gave bodies for the military.

The European model was to create artificial states that split the natural tribes up and created groups of antagonists who would always fight each other. It was done on purpose, and didn't really work out well.

Why was a model needed, Pete?

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 09:35 AM
You mean, after we left? What are they willing to do given help..... is their decision based on any western assistance? What of al-Qaeda who is still a threat, everyone agrees is a threat to our homeland as well?

And what does Iraq need to do queries assume Iraq has a problem. An ISIS with staying power perhaps?

Iraq has the military power to destroy IS. Iraq, however, won't use it because it is split between Sunni, Shia, and Kurd.

Nothing that the US does will ever change that.

Necons need to come to terms with this reality.

gamewell45
06-14-2015, 09:56 AM
I've said it all along and I'll say it again; we have no business sending troops into harms way over in these dirt ball mid-eastern countries. We constantly stick our noses into other countries businesses under the guise of "national interest" when in most cases, its something they can settle on their own. How many of our children/loved ones/friends have died over there over a barrel of oil?? I say let the tribes fight it out and may the best man win.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 09:59 AM
I've said it all along and I'll say it again; we have no business sending troops into harms way over in these dirt ball mid-eastern countries. We constantly stick our noses into other countries businesses under the guise of "national interest" when in most cases, its something they can settle on their own. How many of our children/loved ones/friends have died over there over a barrel of oil?? I say let the tribes fight it out and may the best man win.

With the fracking revolution there isn't anything in the ME that we need. We should let the savages savage each other. Not our problem.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 10:10 AM
Afghanistan at one time was a tribal nation fighting over control where the Taliban emerged.

None of our concern whatsoever. On the evening of September 10, 2001, we all went to snooze unconcerned, woke the next morning and like any good American, blissfully went to work. Thousands in office buildings and the Pentagon for example.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 10:15 AM
Afghanistan at one time was a tribal nation fighting over control where the Taliban emerged.

None of our concern whatsoever. On the evening of September 10, 2001, we all went to snooze unconcerned, woke the next morning and like any good American, blissfully went to work. Thousands in office buildings and the Pentagon for example.

Strawman. We can protect against a 9-11 without occupying nations and having a Jeffersonian Democracy fetish.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 10:30 AM
We cannot sit idle while others abroad plot our destruction. We cannot allow an ISIS to establish itself, that doesn't equate to the term you've the only one that has a fetish for. We both know your Jeffersonian Democracy is the straw man here. We cannot sit in a Jeffersonian Democracy and remain ignorant, we must instead as wise men have learned, remain vigilant. Powerful. Leaning forward.

Regarding the thread start, the neocon jail statement should be retracted. The op was misrepresented. I submit Observers actually read the link given rather than the comment offered.

MisterVeritis
06-14-2015, 10:31 AM
Military leaders against further involvement in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-white-houses-iraq-debate-military-brass-pushed-for-doing-less/2015/06/13/8db17e30-1138-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html?hpid=z1)

Not surprising- they are the ones who know first hand that our occupation of Iraq was fruitless. Necons ought to be jailed.
Obama's picked team supports Obama. No surprise there.

If anyone needs to be jailed it is Obama himself, the architect of our defeat in Iraq and soon Afghanistan. Go Team!

MisterVeritis
06-14-2015, 10:34 AM
Hush child. Adults are posting.

When you grow up, your posts will be welcome.
You have an ugly attitude Peter. You should heed your own advice.

The Xl
06-14-2015, 11:13 AM
Afghanistan at one time was a tribal nation fighting over control where the Taliban emerged.

None of our concern whatsoever. On the evening of September 10, 2001, we all went to snooze unconcerned, woke the next morning and like any good American, blissfully went to work. Thousands in office buildings and the Pentagon for example.

9/11 was the result of decades of interventionist policy, which you no doubt supported. And you want more, it's pure insanity.

The Xl
06-14-2015, 11:15 AM
Anyway, there is no end game. The goal is the subsidization of the military industrial complex.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 01:03 PM
You have an ugly attitude Peter. You should heed your own advice.

Neg. You are incorrect.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 01:07 PM
We cannot sit idle while others abroad plot our destruction. We cannot allow an ISIS to establish itself, that doesn't equate to the term you've the only one that has a fetish for. We both know your Jeffersonian Democracy is the straw man here. We cannot sit in a Jeffersonian Democracy and remain ignorant, we must instead as wise men have learned, remain vigilant. Powerful. Leaning forward.

Regarding the thread start, the neocon jail statement should be retracted. The op was misrepresented. I submit Observers actually read the link given rather than the comment offered.

The US should use its considerable power when and where it can achieve our goals. Neocons waste that power, so no I will not retract my statement. They ought to be jailed for the good of the nation.

And yes, the US fetish for Jeffersonian Democracy in the Middle East is the cause of our current concerns in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Those tribal societies are not ready for democracy. They need to be devolved into tribes or controlled by despots. Neocons screwed that up.

Now so far as the Middle East goes from here on out. What can they do for us? Why do we care if they kill each other?

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 02:05 PM
Rabid Neocons are on the "news" demanding invasion and occupation to save Iraq and Syria.

They ought to be jailed.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 03:12 PM
You have an ugly attitude Peter. You should heed your own advice.

Not only is your first sentence true, his arguments are wrong as well. I think the two go hand in hand.

Ethereal
06-14-2015, 03:27 PM
The tribes in Iraq and Afghanistan reject Jeffersonian Democracy.

So do many of the tribes in America!

Ethereal
06-14-2015, 03:29 PM
For the love of God. These military leaders are merely asking to what end. What is the end game? What are we doing? Read that Washington Post article, they're discussing options that they've been explaining for months become fewer everyday. Most advice caution, that US air strikes and policies of making allies with Sunnis and Kurds are working to 'reduce' ISIS gains. Other are advising helicopters, Pete. Lethal but drastically increase risks and many see no reason to increase risk without reward. You know what they're asking for Pete, your jail comment just some quacking you heard while waddling around points Left of here. These are the 'hard options' you and I have spoken to endlessly, this a great article exposing so much. ISIS has become stronger, our options shrink daily. We waited..... obfuscated..... argued.......... the threat grew. Americans beheaded, territories taken, we waited. We argued sideshow. Options became fewer, staying power established, governments of Iraq and Syria in danger of toppling, the Iraq military in flight, we waited. We argued a little more. Let em focus on each other, they pose no threat.

Now asked to deploy, our military leaders are spelling it out. And asking for direction. From their Commander in Chief. Cause it looks like another Afghanistan. Make me headlines military strategies.

ISIS is becoming stronger because of neo-con policies that help to swell their ranks and strengthen their resolve.

Neo-cons have created and sustained, either wittingly or unwittingly, the entire ISIS boogeyman.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 03:29 PM
The US should use its considerable power when and where it can achieve our goals. Neocons waste that power, so no I will not retract my statement. They ought to be jailed for the good of the nation.

Isolationism and fear have brought us ISIS in it's current state, Pete. Neocons asked for intervention long ago. We were told we were supporting Assad. Neocons raised warning flags more than a year ago..... and we were labeled, well.....neocons. Neocons explained that this organization would have to be confronted, that our options grew fewer by the day, and spelled out the many reasons why ISIS was a threat to the entire region, our allies, and the US.


And yes, the US fetish for Jeffersonian Democracy in the Middle East is the cause of our current concerns in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Those tribal societies are not ready for democracy. They need to be devolved into tribes or controlled by despots. Neocons screwed that up.

Your straw man argument was never attempted, self-determination was permitted and the response was better than expected. This distortion trumped only by the thread start that should be retracted. It's a misrepresentation, it's not what the op reads, I'll encourage all to read the link, the argument given is disingenuous at best. Next.


Now so far as the Middle East goes from here on out. What can they do for us? Why do we care if they kill each other?

From here on out Pete? Your opinions so flat out wrong since at least Dec of 2011, so wrong in fact they've resulted in a catastrophe, and you want a mulligan?

Gentlemen's rules old Boy, sorry.

Archer0915
06-14-2015, 03:31 PM
Military leaders against further involvement in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-white-houses-iraq-debate-military-brass-pushed-for-doing-less/2015/06/13/8db17e30-1138-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html?hpid=z1)

Not surprising- they are the ones who know first hand that our occupation of Iraq was fruitless. Necons ought to be jailed.

Well we could defeat the enemy in every engagement and still come out on the losing end, it is pointless. We are not wanted and we should not engage as such. We would do better supporting the powers that are there and putting Assad back where he was before we helped ISIL!

Ethereal
06-14-2015, 03:34 PM
The ME 'breaking down' from the West's policies of despot rule, Pete. Voices of self-determination impossible to silence now, the Assad's are who have weakening staying power.

Assad has millions of supporters in Syria, many of whom are women and religious minorities. The prevailing myth concerning the Syrian civil war is that it is somehow about Assad, when it is really about a broader rift between Sunni Islamists, both Syrian and foreign-born, and the rest of secular Syria. If Assad died tomorrow night, the fight would still rage on between the Sunni Islamists and the secular Syrians.

The US government, neo-cons, in partiuclar, are contributing to the destruction of yet another secular government in the Middle East, which will invariably be replaced by AQ and its ideological equivalent. Exactly what happened in Iraq and Libya.

Ethereal
06-14-2015, 03:38 PM
You mean, after we left? What are they willing to do given help..... is their decision based on any western assistance? What of al-Qaeda who is still a threat, everyone agrees is a threat to our homeland as well?

And what does Iraq need to do queries assume Iraq has a problem. An ISIS with staying power perhaps?

If AQ is or was a threat, it's due to the US government's incompetence and myopia. Invading, occupying, and bombing countries thousands of miles away won't fix US government incompetence, and it won't make Americans any safer.

Ethereal
06-14-2015, 03:45 PM
Afghanistan at one time was a tribal nation fighting over control where the Taliban emerged.

None of our concern whatsoever. On the evening of September 10, 2001, we all went to snooze unconcerned, woke the next morning and like any good American, blissfully went to work. Thousands in office buildings and the Pentagon for example.

And after fourteen years, the Taliban and AQ are nowhere near being defeated. If anything, they are stronger and more extensive than they ever were, thanks in large part to neo-con myopia and intransigence.

Ethereal
06-14-2015, 03:48 PM
We cannot sit idle while others abroad plot our destruction.

Improving your defenses and your domestic economy is not the same thing as "sitting idle".


We cannot allow an ISIS to establish itself, that doesn't equate to the term you've the only one that has a fetish for. We both know your Jeffersonian Democracy is the straw man here. We cannot sit in a Jeffersonian Democracy and remain ignorant, we must instead as wise men have learned, remain vigilant. Powerful. Leaning forward.

Regarding the thread start, the neocon jail statement should be retracted. The op was misrepresented. I submit Observers actually read the link given rather than the comment offered.

Jeffersonian democracy implies non-interventionist foreign policy, which you aggressively reject.

The Sage of Main Street
06-14-2015, 03:55 PM
I've said it all along and I'll say it again; we have no business sending troops into harm's way over in these dirt ball mid-eastern countries. We constantly stick our noses into other countries' businesses under the guise of "national interest" when in most cases, it's something they can settle on their own. How many of our children/loved ones/friends have died over there over a barrel of oil?? I say let the tribes fight it out and may the best man win. Protect the oilfields from this civil war and then forget to give them back, ever. By the way, these "tribal" wars will soon escalate to national wars, with Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey contributing to the bloodbath.

The Xl
06-14-2015, 03:56 PM
And after fourteen years, the Taliban and AQ are nowhere near being defeated. If anything, they are stronger and more extensive than they ever were, thanks in large part to neo-con myopia and intransigence.

This is intentional, these threats are completely propped up by our government via funding, intentional, calculated blowback, whatever. This has nothing to do with defense, it's a complete sham, and sooner or later the American people will realize that they're being put in jeopardy from a security and freedom standpoint, and are being pillaged in blood and wealth for the continued profits of the military industrial complex and a few other special interests.

Ivan88
06-14-2015, 04:00 PM
The tribes in Iraq and Afghanistan reject Jeffersonian Democracy.

They need to be left alone or given a despot to rule them.

The US never brought "Jeffersonian Democracy" to Afghanistan or Iraq. We brought them our Talmudic democracy where you can only vote for what the super-rich want, that is if you are able to survive all the democratic bombs, bullets, poison, starvation etc.

How many weddings did the schiese kopf US military bomb? And the schiese for brains USers call it something virtuous.
And it's not military guys who have all the blame.
Who has tolerated, accepted and supported the lies that have caused so much havoc, destruction, suffering, death and oppression?

Ivan88
06-14-2015, 04:08 PM
Anyway, there is no end game. The goal is the subsidization of the military industrial complex.
There is an end game.
America as "Fortess America" will be consumed to built a world controlled by anti-Christs, the sinogog of satan.
When America has served it's usefulness, it will be fully subjugated to the rulers of that sinogog, and much of the population liquidated.

The Xl
06-14-2015, 04:12 PM
There is an end game.
America as "Fortess America" will be consumed to built a world controlled by anti-Christs, the sinogog of satan.
When America has served it's usefulness, it will be fully subjugated to the rulers of that sinogog, and much of the population liquidated.

I don't doubt that the powers that be have nefarious inclinations, but as stupid and dumbed down the population is, they have a limit as to what they'll take. Neverending war and profits, however, is easily accomplished.

Ivan88
06-14-2015, 04:17 PM
I don't doubt that the powers that be have nefarious inclinations, but as stupid and dumbed down the population is, they have a limit as to what they'll take. Neverending war and profits, however, is easily accomplished.
When that limit is crossed, what are they going to do? Revolt?
They will be crushed, and the survivors will get an iron yoke to replace the wooden yoke they rebelled against.

The Xl
06-14-2015, 04:24 PM
When that limit is crossed, what are they going to do? Revolt?
They will be crushed, and the survivors will get an iron yoke to replace the wooden yoke they rebelled against.

That takes a compliant military, and many of them are following these current commands brainwashed, it would be a lot harder if the reality became apparent.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 05:14 PM
lol

The US never brought "Jeffersonian Democracy" to Afghanistan or Iraq. We brought them our Talmudic democracy where you can only vote for what the super-rich want, that is if you are able to survive all the democratic bombs, bullets, poison, starvation etc.

How many weddings did the schiese kopf US military bomb? And the schiese for brains USers call it something virtuous.
And it's not military guys who have all the blame.
Who has tolerated, accepted and supported the lies that have caused so much havoc, destruction, suffering, death and oppression?

Ransom
06-14-2015, 05:41 PM
ISIS is becoming stronger because of neo-con policies that help to swell their ranks and strengthen their resolve.

Neo-cons have created and sustained, either wittingly or unwittingly, the entire ISIS boogeyman.

Proclamations without foundation, we already have Peter doing the same.

Ransom
06-14-2015, 05:44 PM
Improving your defenses and your domestic economy is not the same thing as "sitting idle".

I'm sorry, I don't see this economy nor our defenses improving.


Jeffersonian democracy implies non-interventionist foreign policy, which you aggressively reject.

Elaborate on this one, what are you trying to say? Calm down, switch to decaf, give it a whirl.