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Chris
06-14-2015, 09:48 AM
New series on Essential Hayek...

How prices convey knowledge...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr2fexY-utY

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 12:48 PM
Of course she needs to know why the price of her coffee went up.

This stuff will rot your brain.

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 12:50 PM
lol - I just got to the knockdown. The video set 'em up then knocked them down.

Seriously?

GrassrootsConservative
06-14-2015, 12:59 PM
I came expecting a different sort of Hayek video.

I am disappoint.

Chris
06-14-2015, 01:04 PM
Of course she needs to know why the price of her coffee went up.

This stuff will rot your brain.


Actually, no, she doesn't need to know that, all she needs it the change in pricing.

Chris
06-14-2015, 01:06 PM
I came expecting a different sort of Hayek video.

I am disappoint.

Here you go...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCWXWgg5H9g

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 01:08 PM
Bet she knows why coffee is so pricy.

:biglaugh:

Chris
06-14-2015, 01:09 PM
I doubt she cares.

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 01:10 PM
Actually, no, she doesn't need to know that, all she needs it the change in pricing.

I disagree.

If consumers want to be more than herded sheep they need to understand this stuff. It's really not complicated, even for Sally or whatever her name was.

I would argue that, if consumers know that it's an uncontrolled condition that causes price hikes (drought for example) they may be more likely to pay more than if the condition was forced lower supply like oil for example.

Chris
06-14-2015, 01:33 PM
I disagree.

If consumers want to be more than herded sheep they need to understand this stuff. It's really not complicated, even for Sally or whatever her name was.

I would argue that, if consumers know that it's an uncontrolled condition that causes price hikes (drought for example) they may be more likely to pay more than if the condition was forced lower supply like oil for example.

I went grocery shopping this morning, purchased maybe 40 different items. I'm sopposed to research each one? No way, Price is all I need to make an informed decision. Price of eggs went up, doesn't matter what the cause is, poultry farmers asking for more, shortage of hens, whatever.

I don't disagree it might be better to be better informed but the cost of more knowledge is high, and it keeps changing, and may, as Hayek argues, be tacit.

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 01:38 PM
Relativity, Chris.

If my can of beans goes from a buck to a buck o'five who cares. If my coffee goes from eight bucks to fourteen or if my hamburger goes from three bucks a pound to five then I generally want to know.

Chris
06-14-2015, 01:41 PM
Hayek's point isn't really about how individuals participate or ought to in an economy but how the market works. It's essentially an argument against central planning which cannot possibly know all the information needed to plan an economy, there's too much, it's too dynamic and often it's tacit. Does it result in a perfect, optimal system, no, not at all, just one that works better than a centrally planned economy.

Chris
06-14-2015, 01:44 PM
Relativity, Chris.

If my can of beans goes from a buck to a buck o'five who cares. If my coffee goes from eight bucks to fourteen or if my hamburger goes from three bucks a pound to five then I generally want to know.

It's subjective, it depends on what you value. I don't disagree that you may value hamburger or coffee enough to invest the time to know more, or even that that's not the better way to shop.

kilgram
06-14-2015, 02:18 PM
Hayek's point isn't really about how individuals participate or ought to in an economy but how the market works. It's essentially an argument against central planning which cannot possibly know all the information needed to plan an economy, there's too much, it's too dynamic and often it's tacit. Does it result in a perfect, optimal system, no, not at all, just one that works better than a centrally planned economy.
Hayek point is bullshit like all Hayek says. Period.

End troll message but what I think of that bastard.

Peter1469
06-14-2015, 02:22 PM
Hayek point is bullshit like all Hayek says. Period.

End troll message but what I think of that bastard.

Spain is collapsing and this is what upsets you?

Chris
06-14-2015, 02:23 PM
Hayek point is bullshit like all Hayek says. Period.

End troll message but what I think of that bastard.

Go troll somewhere else, troll.

The Sage of Main Street
06-14-2015, 03:43 PM
I'd rather do doggerel than do dogma.

Bob
06-14-2015, 03:47 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIME8Ha1yMI

del
06-14-2015, 03:48 PM
essential hayek is an oxymoron

Chris
06-14-2015, 03:49 PM
I'd rather do doggerel than do dogma.

Then why your dogmatic doggerel?

Chris
06-14-2015, 03:50 PM
essential hayek is an oxymoron

It's a series, there will be more....

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 04:54 PM
Hayek point is bullshit like all Hayek says. Period.

End troll message but what I think of that bastard.

I'll pay attention to the rest of the series since this guy's name gets tossed around here every now and then, I hope it gets better.

This one was a "let's create a problem and solve it" point.

Chris
06-14-2015, 05:41 PM
I'll pay attention to the rest of the series since this guy's name gets tossed around here every now and then, I hope it gets better.

This one was a "let's create a problem and solve it" point.

The problem exists, unlimited wants up against limited resources, Hayek simply describes how people solve it in a decentralized, distributed fashion. I can recommend a few tomes if the 3 minute video wasn't enough! :D

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 05:51 PM
The problem exists, unlimited wants up against limited resources, Hayek simply describes how people solve it in a decentralized, distributed fashion. I can recommend a few tomes if the 3 minute video wasn't enough! :D

I'll be patient then since I think what you're saying is that this is a 101 approach which is cool.

I kind of have a hard time relating to that though for a number of reasons. Coffee is a great example, when it spiked a few months back I can remember standing in the aisle with my wife asking her "what's going on with coffee prices?".

I don't just say "well, coffee is up 40% so let's drink tea".

Chris
06-14-2015, 06:06 PM
I'll be patient then since I think what you're saying is that this is a 101 approach which is cool.

I kind of have a hard time relating to that though for a number of reasons. Coffee is a great example, when it spiked a few months back I can remember standing in the aisle with my wife asking her "what's going on with coffee prices?".

I don't just say "well, coffee is up 40% so let's drink tea".


That's not what he's saying though, he's not saying some people some times don't take the time and effort of make more rational decisions, they do, but not even you do that for each purchase of each item each time you shop, you wouldn't have enough time to do anything else.

It's similar to rational ignorance in voting, people just don't have the time and effort to look into every candidates' every record and rhetoric on issues. We have other, better, more valuable things to do.

The big picture here is the economic calculation debate between Austrians and socialists over whether an economy could be centrally planned. Hayek's argument was central planners could never solve the problem of knowledge in society, knowledge that is too complex, dynamic and often tacit. Of course the challenge back was then how is the economic calculation problem solved in the free market? The answer, generally speaking, prices as signals.

After all, why did you even look into the the coffee market to find out what was happening? Prices change.

One thing to understand about Hayek is unlike economist from Marx to Keynes who prescribe how to solve problems, Hayek is trying to describe how people/society does it.

The challenges are appreciated even if you don't appreciate the answers all the time. No one has to agree with Hayek, some think he's a bastard, for some reason.

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 06:16 PM
Well then, again maybe I'm not the target demographic of this theory. I do want to know about the candidates I vote and don't vote for, I do want to know why coffee is suddenly expensive.

Looking at the point that he's trying to make (I think), pricing impacts me but not in the same way that he suggests it impacts the general populace. If canned beans go up I look at options. If Bush's is too pricey I'm not impartial to trying a competing brand. And if I like that brand then I stick with it, even if Bush's pricing becomes more competitive. And I tend to take the approach "I know I'm buying cheap" so I'll opt for the store brand if I know we're just junking dinner out and I want something cheap and fast.

Coffee on the other hand is different, there is no option to decent coffee as far as I'm concerned. If Columbian or dark roasts go up I won't ever opt for Hills Brothers or some off-brand, might as well scoop dirt into your coffee maker. I'll pay the high price but I want to know why I'm paying a high price, because I want to know.

I also want to know why steaks are up, or pork. Or eggs or whatever because I like being informed. I don't want some corporate fuck in a suit deciding my purchasing habits. If I'm getting fucked at the register, fine as long as I know I'm getting fucked and decide to make the purchase anyway. If I know there is a drought causing coffee to go up at least I sleep a little better knowing some corporate schmuck isn't screwing me over.

And it baffles me that the average consumer doesn't think this way.

Chris
06-14-2015, 06:23 PM
Well then, again maybe I'm not the target demographic of this theory. I do want to know about the candidates I vote and don't vote for, I do want to know why coffee is suddenly expensive.

Looking at the point that he's trying to make (I think), pricing impacts me but not in the same way that he suggests it impacts the general populace. If canned beans go up I look at options. If Bush's is too pricey I'm not impartial to trying a competing brand. And if I like that brand then I stick with it, even if Bush's pricing becomes more competitive. And I tend to take the approach "I know I'm buying cheap" so I'll opt for the store brand if I know we're just junking dinner out and I want something cheap and fast.

Coffee on the other hand is different, there is no option to decent coffee as far as I'm concerned. If Columbian or dark roasts go up I won't ever opt for Hills Brothers or some off-brand, might as well scoop dirt into your coffee maker. I'll pay the high price but I want to know why I'm paying a high price, because I want to know.

I also want to know why steaks are up, or pork. Or eggs or whatever because I like being informed. I don't want some corporate fuck in a suit deciding my purchasing habits. If I'm getting fucked at the register, fine as long as I know I'm getting fucked and decide to make the purchase anyway. If I know there is a drought causing coffee to go up at least I sleep a little better knowing some corporate schmuck isn't screwing me over.

And it baffles me that the average consumer doesn't think this way.



I think he's mainly talking about beans. :D

But generally just saying price is what signals re-evaluation. Whether to stick with these beans or those or switch to brussel sprouts.

And generally that these are subjective evaluations.

It sounds to me when it comes to coffee you've made a subjective valuation prices doesn't matter. You'll pay any price, but I'd bet as the price rises, you re-evaluate other purchases, like beans.

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 06:29 PM
I think he's mainly talking about beans. :D

But generally just saying price is what signals re-evaluation. Whether to stick with these beans or those or switch to brussel sprouts.

And generally that these are subjective evaluations.

It sounds to me when it comes to coffee you've made a subjective valuation prices doesn't matter. You'll pay any price, but I'd bet as the price rises, you re-evaluate other purchases, like beans.

Right, but I still want to know why the price is rising. If it's because the item is the hot "flavor-of-the-day" that everyone's buying and there are alternatives then I won't buy it, mostly because I don't want to be another sheep in the flock buying the "hot item". I'll purposely not buy it even afterward if/when the price comes down for that reason also.

I'm counter-culture like that.

Chris
06-14-2015, 06:46 PM
Right, but I still want to know why the price is rising. If it's because the item is the hot "flavor-of-the-day" that everyone's buying and there are alternatives then I won't buy it, mostly because I don't want to be another sheep in the flock buying the "hot item". I'll purposely not buy it even afterward if/when the price comes down for that reason also.

I'm counter-culture like that.

But it was still price that signal a need to evaluate.

Hayek is not saying people are automatons, just that prices tall them to think twice. But most wouldn't need to know why. You're different.

Captain Obvious
06-14-2015, 06:59 PM
But it was still price that signal a need to evaluate.

Hayek is not saying people are automatons, just that prices tall them to think twice. But most wouldn't need to know why. You're different.

Actually it was me noticing alternatives rather than the price so much. I don't mind paying a few sheckles for better beans but I want to be sure I'm getting better beans for my buck.

That's more of a proactive approach than just waiting for the price to stimulate me to look for alternatives.

Dr. Who
06-14-2015, 10:44 PM
That's not what he's saying though, he's not saying some people some times don't take the time and effort of make more rational decisions, they do, but not even you do that for each purchase of each item each time you shop, you wouldn't have enough time to do anything else.

It's similar to rational ignorance in voting, people just don't have the time and effort to look into every candidates' every record and rhetoric on issues. We have other, better, more valuable things to do.

The big picture here is the economic calculation debate between Austrians and socialists over whether an economy could be centrally planned. Hayek's argument was central planners could never solve the problem of knowledge in society, knowledge that is too complex, dynamic and often tacit. Of course the challenge back was then how is the economic calculation problem solved in the free market? The answer, generally speaking, prices as signals.

After all, why did you even look into the the coffee market to find out what was happening? Prices change.

One thing to understand about Hayek is unlike economist from Marx to Keynes who prescribe how to solve problems, Hayek is trying to describe how people/society does it.

The challenges are appreciated even if you don't appreciate the answers all the time. No one has to agree with Hayek, some think he's a bastard, for some reason.
Coffee prices change because of weather problems. However it is not impossible to know what people want at any given time. With people increasingly ordering product over the internet, it will be far easier to plan what needs to be manufactured or grown.

The Sage of Main Street
06-15-2015, 08:43 AM
Well then, again maybe I'm not the target demographic of this theory. I do want to know about the candidates I vote and don't vote for, I do want to know why coffee is suddenly expensive.

Looking at the point that he's trying to make (I think), pricing impacts me but not in the same way that he suggests it impacts the general populace. If canned beans go up I look at options. If Bush's is too pricey I'm not impartial to trying a competing brand. And if I like that brand then I stick with it, even if Bush's pricing becomes more competitive. And I tend to take the approach "I know I'm buying cheap" so I'll opt for the store brand if I know we're just junking dinner out and I want something cheap and fast.

Coffee on the other hand is different, there is no option to decent coffee as far as I'm concerned. If Columbian or dark roasts go up I won't ever opt for Hills Brothers or some off-brand, might as well scoop dirt into your coffee maker. I'll pay the high price but I want to know why I'm paying a high price, because I want to know.

I also want to know why steaks are up, or pork. Or eggs or whatever because I like being informed. I don't want some corporate $#@! in a suit deciding my purchasing habits. If I'm getting $#@!ed at the register, fine as long as I know I'm getting $#@!ed and decide to make the purchase anyway. If I know there is a drought causing coffee to go up at least I sleep a little better knowing some corporate schmuck isn't screwing me over.

And it baffles me that the average consumer doesn't think this way. Capitalism is a command economy controlled by a price-fixing plutocratic clique.

Captain Obvious
06-15-2015, 08:52 AM
Capitalism is a command economy controlled by a price-fixing plutocratic clique.

I don't disagree.

I don't agree with the premise of this video however, I think there is a broad array of purchasing intellect out there and goods/services target some and not the others.

The concept is painted with far, far too broad a brush, that simply changing prices drives consumer behavior.

Chris
06-15-2015, 08:59 AM
Capitalism is a command economy controlled by a price-fixing plutocratic clique.

I sometimes pun that it should be called capitolism.

Chris
06-15-2015, 09:03 AM
Coffee prices change because of weather problems. However it is not impossible to know what people want at any given time. With people increasingly ordering product over the internet, it will be far easier to plan what needs to be manufactured or grown.

It's one thing to predict the coffee market, it another to plan an economy. The Internet might give you data to work with, but you'll never overcome the complex, dynamic nature of that information. No computer could compute it. Why? Because people are involved and they're not normally all that rational. Take Captain Obvious, very rational person, even rational in his coffee purchases, but there's nothing rational at all in his preference for good coffee, he just likes good coffee, there's no explaining it.

midcan5
06-15-2015, 09:31 AM
That video is so childish it defies imagination. FD: I only got through a few minutes but lord what are we all twelve. As a coffee lover try Peets and Columbo, great stuff and expensive so skip the Hayek video. I don't have time now but consider only the power of advertizing, monetary manipulation, keiretsu, dumping, and labor costs. Is that video's purpose the dumbing down of the American, esp the libertarian type American? Who pays for such nonsense?

Chris
06-15-2015, 09:41 AM
That video is so childish it defies imagination. FD: I only got through a few minutes but lord what are we all twelve. As a coffee lover try Peets and Columbo, great stuff and expensive so skip the Hayek video. I don't have time now but consider only the power of advertizing, monetary manipulation, keiretsu, dumping, and labor costs. Is that video's purpose the dumbing down of the American, esp the libertarian type American? Who pays for such nonsense?

IOW, you didn't get the point even simplified to the level of a child. Hint, the video had nothing to do with "the power of advertizing, monetary manipulation, keiretsu, dumping, and labor costs." did you even watch it?

Chris
06-15-2015, 12:36 PM
Video two in the series can be found here: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/46010-Essential-Hayek-Videos-Economic-Booms-and-Busts?p=1134396#post1134396

midcan5
06-15-2015, 03:47 PM
Chris, yes, the video had nothing to do with economics either. lol

Got the coffee spelling wrong, this is great coffee. http://www.lacolombe.com/

Chris
06-15-2015, 03:50 PM
Chris, yes, the video had nothing to do with economics either. lol

Got the coffee spelling wrong, this is great coffee. http://www.lacolombe.com/


It did.

You don't.

The Sage of Main Street
06-16-2015, 11:52 AM
I don't disagree.

I don't agree with the premise of this video however, I think there is a broad array of purchasing intellect out there and goods/services target some and not the others.

The concept is painted with far, far too broad a brush, that simply changing prices drives consumer behavior. How much is the consumer's free will blocked and manipulated through brainwashing advertising?

The Sage of Main Street
06-16-2015, 11:57 AM
I sometimes pun that it should be called capitolism. The "private" sector owns Capitolist Hill.

Chris
06-16-2015, 11:58 AM
The "private" sector owns Capitolist Hill.

With the backing of the all powerful state. If you don't understand that you don't get the pun.

The Sage of Main Street
06-17-2015, 11:03 AM
With the backing of the all powerful state. If you don't understand that you don't get the pun. Without the state propping them up, your plutocratic heroes will drop into a ditch.

Chris
06-17-2015, 11:08 AM
Without the state propping them up, your plutocratic heroes will drop into a ditch.

Heroes?

The rich would have to abandon the political means for the economic means.

"I propose in the following discussion to call one's own labor, and the equivalent exchange of one's own labor for the labor of others, the 'economic means' for the satisfaction of needs, while the unrequited appropriation of the labor of others will be called the 'political means'." – Franz Oppenheimer, The State.

The Sage of Main Street
06-18-2015, 11:21 AM
Heroes?

The rich would have to abandon the political means for the economic means.

"I propose in the following discussion to call one's own labor, and the equivalent exchange of one's own labor for the labor of others, the 'economic means' for the satisfaction of needs, while the unrequited appropriation of the labor of others will be called the 'political means'." – Franz Oppenheimer, The State. The plutocratic parasites would have to establish their own privatized police state in order to "protect rugged individualists from mob rule."

Chris
06-18-2015, 11:32 AM
The plutocratic parasites would have to establish their own privatized police state in order to "protect rugged individualists from mob rule."

Your alliteration clouds your meaning.

The Sage of Main Street
06-19-2015, 09:16 AM
Your alliteration clouds your meaning.
Everything looks like a cloud to you because you live in a fog.

Chris
06-19-2015, 09:26 AM
Everything looks like a cloud to you because you live in a fog.

It was you weird words not mine.