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Guerilla
06-17-2015, 03:53 AM
There is a movement in Northern CA to create Jefferson State (http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html), they might take southern Oregon to. It first started in 1941, and they actually had soldiers blocking off roads and stuff, but then WWII happened and everyone forgot and got patriotic. Now it's getting traction again.


Lassen County voters will decide whether the rural county should support the State of Jefferson, a movement aimed at creating a 51st state to bring greater government representation to California’s northern region.The Lassen County Board of Supervisors voted 3-2 Tuesday on a resolution that recognizes a lack of representation in state government but postpones the county’s position until June 2016.


Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html#storylink=cpy

Peter1469
06-17-2015, 04:50 AM
Yes. They are sick of the hard left who rule California screwing with their economy with their insane policies.

Guerilla
06-17-2015, 06:22 AM
Yes. They are sick of the hard left who rule California screwing with their economy with their insane policies.

So what do you think of the idea to split CA into 6 states? I think the plan was because CA is too large and diverse and populated in general, not just the north, and not just because of liberal policy. http://www.sixcalifornias.com/ But I also think the north has a more regional identity, which maybe why they would be leading that change. Would CA turn into a confederation?

But then the votes to secede were just the majority against the minority. Still, the people who feel they are apart of Jefferson state should be able to organize freely no matter how many of them their are.

zelmo1234
06-17-2015, 08:17 AM
I think that they should have the right to vote to create their own State, The UP of MI is another area that often want their own identity, But they unlike N CA can't afford it.

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 08:25 AM
I have gone on record supporting the Six Californias plan.

Peter1469
06-17-2015, 03:51 PM
So what do you think of the idea to split CA into 6 states? I think the plan was because CA is too large and diverse and populated in general, not just the north, and not just because of liberal policy. http://www.sixcalifornias.com/ But I also think the north has a more regional identity, which maybe why they would be leading that change. Would CA turn into a confederation?

But then the votes to secede were just the majority against the minority. Still, the people who feel they are apart of Jefferson state should be able to organize freely no matter how many of them their are.
I think 6 states would be too much. I am not sure many of them would be economically viable.

gamewell45
06-17-2015, 05:33 PM
It's just a plan to increase representation in the US Senate based on political affiliation. Never happen since everyone know's what the hidden agenda is and it would get shot down before it ever became airborne.

magicmike
06-17-2015, 05:35 PM
Yes. They are sick of the hard left who rule California screwing with their economy with their insane policies.

Link or lie?

magicmike
06-17-2015, 05:36 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-16/brown-s-california-overtakes-brazil-with-companies-leading-world

Peter1469
06-17-2015, 05:52 PM
Link or lie?

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter1469 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1137055#post1137055)
Yes. They are sick of the hard left who rule California screwing with their economy with their insane policies. Citation: Peter1469's opinion. No cut and paste. :wink:

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 07:36 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-16/brown-s-california-overtakes-brazil-with-companies-leading-world

That's not because of California, though.

Hal Jordan
06-17-2015, 07:41 PM
That's not because of California, though.

And it's a moot point when California will become worthless because they're too dumb to focus on the water issue.

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 07:43 PM
It's just a plan to increase representation in the US Senate based on political affiliation. Never happen since everyone know's what the hidden agenda is and it would get shot down before it ever became airborne.

That's a far overblown concern. If you crunch the numbers, it would give both parties additional seats and one of those would be a swing seat. It comes out roughly even in the end.

What it could do, however, is give us our first ever strong third party state.

gamewell45
06-17-2015, 08:06 PM
That's a far overblown concern. If you crunch the numbers, it would give both parties additional seats and one of those would be a swing seat. It comes out roughly even in the end.

What it could do, however, is give us our first ever strong third party state.

And both major parties would realize that and hence why it would get shot down.

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 08:11 PM
And both major parties would realize that and hence why it would get shot down.

Probably, but that still doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. California (and other states) has become too big, bloated, and diverse to continue operating as one state.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:00 PM
There is a movement in Northern CA to create Jefferson State (http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html), they might take southern Oregon to. It first started in 1941, and they actually had soldiers blocking off roads and stuff, but then WWII happened and everyone forgot and got patriotic. Now it's getting traction again.



Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html#storylink=cpy


It would take far more than that county to make much of a state. What would be Lassen County resources other than growing marijuana?

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:03 PM
It would take far more than that county to make much of a state. What would be Lassen County resources other than growing marijuana?

Hog Flat.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:05 PM
Yes. They are sick of the hard left who rule California screwing with their economy with their insane policies.

Yet when I said the South voters voted to secede, you said they were wrong???

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:05 PM
Hog Flat.

What can that mean?

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:06 PM
What can that mean?

Hog Flat Reservoir?

Peter1469
06-17-2015, 09:08 PM
Yet when I said the South voters voted to secede, you said they were wrong???


They were immoral. They were destined to be subjugated through war.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:10 PM
Probably, but that still doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. California (and other states) has become too big, bloated, and diverse to continue operating as one state.

You mean why not chop Tennessee right into two states?

The problem we have in N. California is the Democrats run the state. There is no way they plan to let any citizens escape into some new state.

I don't blame the conservative north part of the state though. I believe it is their right to secede by voting.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:11 PM
They were immoral. They were destined to be subjugated through war.

No, the country that provided for slavery can be called immoral, but not just a small part of the country.

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:12 PM
You mean why not chop Tennessee right into two states?

There is absolutely zero reason to split Tennessee into multiple states.

There are 38 million good reasons to split California into multiple states.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:12 PM
Hog Flat Reservoir?

That is a new name to me.

Peter1469
06-17-2015, 09:12 PM
incorrect

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:12 PM
That is a new name to me.

It's really the only thing worth mentioning about Lassen County, but reservoirs like Hog Flat will put Lassen County on the map as California's water crisis gets worse.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:17 PM
It's really the only thing worth mentioning about Lassen County, but reservoirs like Hog Flat will put Lassen County on the map as California's water crisis gets worse.

What? Mt Lassen is what? What about the nice lakes in the county?

Trouble with lakes that tiny is they generally are owned by maybe PGE. PGE owns many reservoirs and uses them to move water all over to create power we need.

The photos I saw of Hog Flat are not flattering to say the least.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:19 PM
It's really the only thing worth mentioning about Lassen County, but reservoirs like Hog Flat will put Lassen County on the map as California's water crisis gets worse.

Maybe you never heard of Eagle Lake there. Well known for it's fishing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Lake_(Lassen_County)

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:20 PM
What? Mt Lassen is what? What about the nice lakes in the county?

Trouble with lakes that tiny is they generally are owned by maybe PGE. PGE owns many reservoirs and uses them to move water all over to create power we need.

The photos I saw of Hog Flat are not flattering to say the least.

Bob, we're talking about resources​ in Lassen County. Mountains and lakes are not resources.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:21 PM
There is absolutely zero reason to split Tennessee into multiple states.

There are 38 million good reasons to split California into multiple states.

Democrats never would allow that.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:22 PM
Bob, we're talking about resources​ in Lassen County. Mountains and lakes are not resources.

Google hog flat and look at the lake there.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:23 PM
Google hog flat and look at the lake there.

I flew a client to Lassen County and sold him a very nice 15 acres of land with a very nice home on it. He sure told me Eagle Lake there is fine and he loved to fish there.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:28 PM
It's really the only thing worth mentioning about Lassen County, but reservoirs like Hog Flat will put Lassen County on the map as California's water crisis gets worse.

It seems to me like Lake Almanor has much more water then. However, it is in Plumas County. I mentioned it since I flew pretty close to it and other lakes on the trip to sell property.

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:28 PM
Google hog flat and look at the lake there.

I've seen Hog Flat. It's not impressive, but a puddle is an oasis when you need water.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:30 PM
That's a far overblown concern. If you crunch the numbers, it would give both parties additional seats and one of those would be a swing seat. It comes out roughly even in the end.

What it could do, however, is give us our first ever strong third party state.

Why not first research to find out the low population there?

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:33 PM
Why not first research to find out the low population there?

Where? In NorCal? NorCal as a whole has a population of 14.5 million. That's more than double the population of Tennessee.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:41 PM
I've seen Hog Flat. It's not impressive, but a puddle is an oasis when you need water.

OK, I did not see it in person. I saw Eagle lake in person though. What about that lake?

I doubt the locals would agree to drain it for my benefit. Besides we don't have pipes to that lake from the SF Bay Area.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:43 PM
Where? In NorCal? NorCal as a whole has a population of 14.5 million. That's more than double the population of Tennessee.

Could be true. I won't say more or less on that at all. But how can you get the Democrats to go for this?

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:50 PM
Could be true. I won't say more or less on that at all. But how can you get the Democrats to go for this?

You probably can't, but you don't have to.

Bob
06-17-2015, 09:54 PM
You probably can't, but you don't have to.

I call that an unproven statement. And it is my guess, but I see no way to do as you claim.

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 09:55 PM
I call that an unproven statement. And it is my guess, but I see no way to do as you claim.

History proves my claim pretty well. The establishment in power can only stay in power so long as the masses don't rise up against them. If the majority of NorCal'ers demand the state be split, it will be.

Bob
06-17-2015, 10:00 PM
History proves my claim pretty well. The establishment in power can only stay in power so long as the masses don't rise up against them. If the majority of NorCal'ers demand the state be split, it will be.

That is puffery on your account and you know it is. LMAO

I live here. I have seen this going on for a few decades. This is not some new idea.

So far, it has not taken place. I nor you can predict the future. Can we?

Bob
06-17-2015, 10:10 PM
History proves my claim pretty well. The establishment in power can only stay in power so long as the masses don't rise up against them. If the majority of NorCal'ers demand the state be split, it will be.

You should have first checked out Wikipedia


20th century[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Partition_and_secession_in_Califor nia&action=edit&section=5)]

Since as far back as the mid-19th century, the mountainous region of northern California and parts of southwesternOregon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon) have been proposed as a separate state. In 1941, some counties in the area ceremonially seceded, one day a week, from their respective states as the State of Jefferson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(Pacific_state)). This movement disappeared after America's entry into World War II, but the notion has been rekindled in recent years.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California#cite_note-latimes-09-2013-9)
The California State Senate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Senate) voted on June 4, 1965, to divide California into two states, with the Tehachapi Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehachapi_Mountains) as the boundary. Sponsored by State Senator Richard J. Dolwig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Dolwig) (R-San Mateo), the resolution proposed to separate the 7 southern counties, with a majority of the state's population, from the 51 other counties, and passed 27-12. To be effective, the amendment would have needed approval by the State Assembly, by California voters, and by the United States Congress. As expected by Dolwig, the proposal did not get out of committee in the Assembly.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California#cite_note-10) A previous proposal to this effect, the Pico Act, was advanced in 1859-1860 but was tabled due to the American Civil War and never revived (see above).
In 1992, State Assemblyman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Assembly) Stan Statham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Statham) sponsored a bill to allow a referendum in each county on a partition into three new states: North, Central, and South California. The proposal passed in the State Assembly but died in the State Senate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Senate).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California#cite_note-11)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_California#cite_note-12)

Green Arrow
06-17-2015, 10:16 PM
I'm not talking about the history of that particular movement, Bob. I'm talking about world history.

Guerilla
06-20-2015, 02:27 AM
I think that they should have the right to vote to create their own State, The UP of MI is another area that often want their own identity, But they unlike N CA can't afford it.

I'm not sure why the economy would stop them from becoming an independent state, unless they used a lot of money from the state government. Even then, why wouldn't they be able to work through it?

Part of the idea to create Jefferson State is because of recent economic troubles and them pushing to make a more local economy, and also because of a regional culture that's kind of outdoorsy, geographically secluded, oldschool but relaxed, basically different than a lot of the rest of the two states and their metropolitan areas. I think falling back on a regional identity is a natural reaction to the problems they are seeing, as to have more control over their affairs.

Guerilla
06-20-2015, 02:50 AM
That's a far overblown concern. If you crunch the numbers, it would give both parties additional seats and one of those would be a swing seat. It comes out roughly even in the end.

What it could do, however, is give us our first ever strong third party state.

I think the issue was more about state representation that national. I heard water was also a dividing factor, how much water does Hog Flats give? If they take too much water, the fertile crescent is going to have problems. Should Jefferson state be worried about that though?

Ethereal
06-20-2015, 03:46 AM
There is a movement in Northern CA to create Jefferson State (http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html), they might take southern Oregon to. It first started in 1941, and they actually had soldiers blocking off roads and stuff, but then WWII happened and everyone forgot and got patriotic. Now it's getting traction again.



Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html#storylink=cpy


I support them 100%.

But because it's such a good idea, they are facing an uphill battle.

Ethereal
06-20-2015, 03:47 AM
So what do you think of the idea to split CA into 6 states? I think the plan was because CA is too large and diverse and populated in general, not just the north, and not just because of liberal policy. http://www.sixcalifornias.com/ But I also think the north has a more regional identity, which maybe why they would be leading that change. Would CA turn into a confederation?

But then the votes to secede were just the majority against the minority. Still, the people who feel they are apart of Jefferson state should be able to organize freely no matter how many of them their are.

They should split up to as many states as is necessary for them to obtain proper representation and democracy, as should all peoples.

Ethereal
06-20-2015, 03:49 AM
It's just a plan to increase representation in the US Senate based on political affiliation.

Could you elaborate on this?


Never happen since everyone know's what the hidden agenda is and it would get shot down before it ever became airborne.

How does everyone know what the agenda is if it's hidden?

Lineman
06-21-2015, 11:04 AM
So how would they integrate with the system we have? :)

Peter1469
06-21-2015, 11:17 AM
So how would they integrate with the system we have? :)

Two senators. Representatives based on population.

See, U.S. Constitution.

Tahuyaman
06-21-2015, 11:35 AM
Two senators. Representatives based on population.

See, U.S. Constitution.

sometimes it really not very complicated.

Peter1469
06-21-2015, 11:38 AM
sometimes it really not very complicated.

Public school education I expect....

gamewell45
06-21-2015, 11:44 AM
Could you elaborate on this?

If California were to be split into 6 states that means an increase in the senate of 10 Senators; I can see infighting from both major parties on the size of the new state; it reminds me of re-drawing district lines that states do to gerrymander voters based on political affiliation.


How does everyone know what the agenda is if it's hidden?

Most people who are politically savvy can see through the "hidden" agenda.

Lineman
06-21-2015, 01:10 PM
Yeah by integrating into the existing situation.... why bother?

gettit
06-22-2015, 02:49 PM
I can see them splitting off, but not 6 of them. Sheesh, they'd be as helpless as Rhode Island if they did that. I can see Oregon splitting up, too, with half of it going with the sensible folk. But half of Oregon is infected with the same liberal BS as San Francisco, San Diego and LA

Green Arrow
06-22-2015, 03:14 PM
Yeah by integrating into the existing situation.... why bother?

Because the state is too big to be adequately governed.

gettit
06-23-2015, 12:23 PM
guess you can't read. He did not ask why split up, he said why join the US AFTER splitting from CA.

Green Arrow
06-23-2015, 04:25 PM
guess you can't read. He did not ask why split up, he said why join the US AFTER splitting from CA.

It's a false premise, nobody is talking about leaving the U.S. They are only talking about splitting California up into smaller states.

PattyHill
06-23-2015, 05:41 PM
There is a movement in Northern CA to create Jefferson State (http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html), they might take southern Oregon to. It first started in 1941, and they actually had soldiers blocking off roads and stuff, but then WWII happened and everyone forgot and got patriotic. Now it's getting traction again.



Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article15204719.html#storylink=cpy



No. They'd fail miserably. They have no money. What happens when there's a forest fire?

On the other hand, I'd love to see the idiots leave.

PattyHill
06-23-2015, 05:42 PM
So what do you think of the idea to split CA into 6 states? I think the plan was because CA is too large and diverse and populated in general, not just the north, and not just because of liberal policy. http://www.sixcalifornias.com/ But I also think the north has a more regional identity, which maybe why they would be leading that change. Would CA turn into a confederation?

But then the votes to secede were just the majority against the minority. Still, the people who feel they are apart of Jefferson state should be able to organize freely no matter how many of them their are.


Would give us 12 senators. Think the rest of the country wants that?

GrassrootsConservative
06-23-2015, 05:43 PM
No. They'd fail miserably. They have no money. What happens when there's a forest fire?

On the other hand, I'd love to see the idiots leave.

"They have no money" because they live in California...

PattyHill
06-23-2015, 05:45 PM
"They have no money" because they live in California...


no. They have no money because n. California is sparsely populated, has no large cities, no industries - there would be no tax base for them.

Green Arrow
06-23-2015, 05:51 PM
no. They have no money because n. California is sparsely populated, has no large cities, no industries - there would be no tax base for them.

If you split California into two states and went with the division that leaves Central California out and just has NorCal and SoCal, it could be done. The state of NorCal would have 14.5 million people and contain the cities and metro areas of San Francisco, Fresno, Sacramento, and San Jose.

Redrose
06-23-2015, 06:22 PM
Yes. They are sick of the hard left who rule California screwing with their economy with their insane policies.


The lefty loons in Calif. have destroyed that once great state. I say let Northern Calif. leave them in the dust.

PattyHill
06-23-2015, 07:15 PM
If you split California into two states and went with the division that leaves Central California out and just has NorCal and SoCal, it could be done. The state of NorCal would have 14.5 million people and contain the cities and metro areas of San Francisco, Fresno, Sacramento, and San Jose.


But the people proposing Jefferson are doing all rural counties. So they're hosed from the very beginning.

And how do we fit the extra star on the flag?

So ...where does Central Cal go in your scenario? just curious...

Green Arrow
06-23-2015, 07:28 PM
But the people proposing Jefferson are doing all rural counties. So they're hosed from the very beginning.

I don't think that is necessarily true. States like Wyoming, Nebraska, Iowa, and Kansas seem to survive quite well with largely rural populations. Of course, those states can also point to farming as their big money-maker. Not sure NorCal really has much in the way of a money-making resource.


And how do we fit the extra star on the flag?

Perhaps we need a new flag.


So ...where does Central Cal go in your scenario? just curious...

In my scenario of "Two Californias," Central Cal would be divided between NorCal and SoCal.

PattyHill
06-23-2015, 07:31 PM
ok. I'll hope I end up in Nor Cal, assuming a big enough tax base

Green Arrow
06-23-2015, 07:32 PM
ok. I'll hope I end up in Nor Cal, assuming a big enough tax base

I washed my hands of California five years ago, haven't looked back since. Literally, I haven't been back to California once in the last five years :tongue: