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Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 11:44 AM
Ah, who cares. Small price to pay for cheap gas, IPads and McFuckwiches.

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/environment/in-the-us-the-eastern-puma-is-declared-extinct.html


The eastern puma is extinct, declared so by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service this week.

The federal agency announced the puma's demise as it removed the eastern puma from the list of protected wildlife and plants under the Endangered Species Act.

The eastern puma was a subspecies of the animal also known as cougar or mountain lion, which is still widely distributed across the West. It once roamed as far north as southeastern Ontario, southern Quebec and New Brunswick in Canada, south to South Carolina and west to Kentucky, Illinois and Michigan.

The eastern puma’s range contracted from the 1790s to the 1890s due to human persecution abetted by the extirpation, through hunting, of its primary prey, white-tailed deer. The last three eastern pumas were killed in 1930 in Tennessee, 1932 in New Brunswick and 1938 in Maine.



http://www.wisconsingazette.com/images/dailies/2015-06-17/eastern_puma_web.jpg

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 11:45 AM
It's a fuckin Mountain Lion. We have thousands of em here... Pick a few western ones up...drop them in the east...KAPOW! No more extinct Eastern Puma...

Crepitus
06-18-2015, 12:08 PM
sad

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 12:10 PM
sad

Not really. Laughable if you think of it. The last one was shot in '33? Naturally it took an inept government agency 82 years to figure out there were none left...

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 12:37 PM
Not really. Laughable if you think of it. The last one was shot in '33? Naturally it took an inept government agency 82 years to figure out there were none left...

Just think of those clowns in charge of single payer health care.....

Common Sense
06-18-2015, 12:44 PM
Just think of those clowns in charge of single payer health care.....

Nice spin...


The debate existed over their existence because people still said that they had spotted them. Most experts agreed that it was probably due to mistaken identity.

By the way, the government doesn't run hospitals in a single payer system. It only acts as the insurance company.

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 12:50 PM
Nice spin...


The debate existed over their existence because people still said that they had spotted them. Most experts agreed that it was probably due to mistaken identity.

By the way, the government doesn't run hospitals in a single payer system. It only acts as the insurance company.

How about in Britain?

The NIH sets all the standards and caps the spending. Old people starve to death in the hospital to save costs.

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 12:50 PM
Nice spin...


The debate existed over their existence because people still said that they had spotted them. Most experts agreed that it was probably due to mistaken identity.

By the way, the government doesn't run hospitals in a single payer system. It only acts as the insurance company.

Yet CO thinks it was because of oil and McDonalds.

The government acting like the private sector is covered in red flags and impending doom.

Common Sense
06-18-2015, 01:08 PM
How about in Britain?

The NIH sets all the standards and caps the spending. Old people starve to death in the hospital to save costs.

That's not exactly what happened, but sure. It's NHS, btw...

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 01:11 PM
That's not exactly what happened, but sure. It's NHS, btw...

Yes, NHS

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 02:58 PM
Nice spin...


The debate existed over their existence because people still said that they had spotted them. Most experts agreed that it was probably due to mistaken identity.

By the way, the government doesn't run hospitals in a single payer system. It only acts as the insurance company.

Ergo, they control the hospitals revenues and pretty much dictate everything.

Medicare does it now.

The Sage of Main Street
06-18-2015, 03:00 PM
Ah, who cares. Small price to pay for cheap gas, IPads and McFuckwiches.

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/environment/in-the-us-the-eastern-puma-is-declared-extinct.html



http://www.wisconsingazette.com/images/dailies/2015-06-17/eastern_puma_web.jpg An endangered species is an unfit species. This mindless beast got in the way of American pioneers' progress. Protecting such creatures increases poverty.

It's either us or them. Man Must Exploit Nature or Man Will Be Forced to Exploit His Fellow Man. ​But some people like to do that, just as eco-eunuchs get a thrill out of making the common people suffer.

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 03:00 PM
Yet CO thinks it was because of oil and McDonalds.

The government acting like the private sector is covered in red flags and impending doom.

That coupled with midsets like yours.

Notice that I said "we have our Ipods, etc". What we do with our society and environment is a reflection of us.

Collectively, of course.

Common
06-18-2015, 03:05 PM
An endangered species is an unfit species. This mindless beast got in the way of American pioneers' progress. Protecting such creatures increases poverty.

It's either us or them. Man Must Exploit Nature or Man Will Be Forced to Exploit His Fellow Man. ​But some people like to do that, just as eco-eunuchs get a thrill out of making the common people suffer.

YEAH MAN!~!!! PROFIT BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE, kick the dead aside we gotta get through to make more PROFIT

Common Sense
06-18-2015, 03:16 PM
Shouldn't have made all those shoes out of them.


http://img.myshopping.com.au/rsz200/cache/3308/BB/4B32B36F4A1022B411EC1EF0C52828E27EE530.jpg?aHR_cDo vL0RpNjguc0hvcHBpbmcuY07tL0ltYWdlcy7kaS61My60NC6_N i6_MzM1MzQ-NjZhNDczMjU-MmQ0MjUxMzg-Nzc1NzA0MzQ0NDI0Ny_-MDB2NTAwLTAtMC3qcGcJLzMzMDgvQkIvNEIzMkIzNkY_QTEwMj JCNDExRUMxRUYwQzUyODI2RTI1RUU-MzAuanBn

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 04:31 PM
That coupled with midsets like yours.

Notice that I said "we have our Ipods, etc". What we do with our society and environment is a reflection of us.

Collectively, of course.

They went extinct 80 years ago... iPods didn't even exist... It has as much of a reflection on our society today as say slavery...

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 04:48 PM
They went extinct 80 years ago... iPods didn't even exist... It has as much of a reflection on our society today as say slavery...

These points I make completely zoom by you, don't they?

ok - as long as we have our model T's and steam locomotives and the new electric lights...

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 04:49 PM
Ergo, they control the hospitals revenues and pretty much dictate everything.

Medicare does it now.

The power of the purse....

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 04:58 PM
The power of the purse....

That's what single payer would do, basically give control to our entire system of healthcare to the bureaucratic establishment.

No they wouldn't be running the day-to-day ops for the most part but control the capital and that's all you need. Basic corporate finance proves that.

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 04:59 PM
These points I make completely zoom by you, don't they?

ok - as long as we have our model T's and steam locomotives and the new electric lights...

They were on their way out LONG before oil was a commodity let alone a viable resource. We started hundreds of years ago to make way for farms, ranches and to increase deer populations for natural game.

Blaming the industrial revolution works for a lot of things but not the Eastern Puma...

Common Sense
06-18-2015, 05:00 PM
That's what single payer would do, basically give control to our entire system of healthcare to the bureaucratic establishment.

No they wouldn't be running the day-to-day ops for the most part but control the capital and that's all you need. Basic corporate finance proves that.

...and the insurance companies don't do that now? Plus some profit for them...

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 05:01 PM
An endangered species is an unfit species. This mindless beast got in the way of American pioneers' progress. Protecting such creatures increases poverty.

It's either us or them. Man Must Exploit Nature or Man Will Be Forced to Exploit His Fellow Man. ​But some people like to do that, just as eco-eunuchs get a thrill out of making the common people suffer.

Man is a part of nature. We exploit our fellow man all the time. Many of us are completely naïve to this fact.

However; in my opinion in today's society, we think about the welfare of the environment every bit as much as we do our fellow man.

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 05:02 PM
...and the insurance companies don't do that now? Plus some profit for them...

Do you expect insurance companies to be non-profit?

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 05:42 PM
They were on their way out LONG before oil was a commodity let alone a viable resource. We started hundreds of years ago to make way for farms, ranches and to increase deer populations for natural game.

Blaming the industrial revolution works for a lot of things but not the Eastern Puma...

lol!

You're like a bad steering column, can't get it under control no matter which way I turn it.

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 05:44 PM
...and the insurance companies don't do that now? Plus some profit for them...

Depends.

Care/Caid are roughly two thirds of our reimbursement so we have virtual single payer already and yes, they dictate the market, including the market for the remaining 1/3 commercial.

Of the remaining commercial probably half of it is Blue Cross which is an NFP.

To answer your question, yes - I have control. I can not contract with Aetna for example and their members would be out-of-network and they would have to pay all of my charges if my providers treat them. Aetna knows that and that gives me leverage to the extent that I have fair competition with other area hospitals.

With Care/Caid, nope. Take it or leave it.

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 05:52 PM
lol!

You're like a bad steering column, can't get it under control no matter which way I turn it.

I really don't understand. I think you're trying to make a metaphor out of this but I could be wrong. Either way, the metaphor only works in the general sense of the environment as a whole and not detrimental aspects of it like the use of fossil fuels, which had nothing to do with the extinction of the Eastern Puma. You remember. The topic of this thread.

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 05:58 PM
I really don't understand. I think you're trying to make a metaphor out of this but I could be wrong. Either way, the metaphor only works in the general sense of the environment as a whole and not detrimental aspects of it like the use of fossil fuels, which had nothing to do with the extinction of the Eastern Puma. You remember. The topic of this thread.

Like the vast majority of extinct species, most of them wouldn't have happened hadn't it been for our industrialization. Today, yesterday, 80 years ago. You can't seem to grasp that part of the point, you're focusing on oil or something.

I'm an environmentalist among other things, I love animals, the wilds. It's special to me and it is heartbreaking to me to see that it's a struggle now to maintain a balance between materialism and naturalism.

The ogreish cement-head mentality demonstrated by the wingnutjob right is just an ironic testament to why these things happen.

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 06:21 PM
That's what single payer would do, basically give control to our entire system of healthcare to the bureaucratic establishment.

No they wouldn't be running the day-to-day ops for the most part but control the capital and that's all you need. Basic corporate finance proves that.

The silly sheep don't get that. They won't. Just smile and chuckle.

Captain Obvious
06-18-2015, 06:24 PM
The silly sheep don't get that. They won't. Just smile and chuckle.

Well, providers would get blamed for doing a shit job financially, that's kinda what happens now.

In part it's not untrue but the margins are getting squeezed tighter and tighter, faster and faster.

Healthcare is centralizing right in front of our very eyes, nobody's connecting those dots yet and when they finally do like they are now with the ACA cost redux = higher out-of-pocket, lower utilization that I sort of called then don't mind me if I strut around with my feathers all in a bloom.

:biglaugh:

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 06:24 PM
Like the vast majority of extinct species, most of them wouldn't have happened hadn't it been for our industrialization. Today, yesterday, 80 years ago. You can't seem to grasp that part of the point, you're focusing on oil or something.

I'm an environmentalist among other things, I love animals, the wilds. It's special to me and it is heartbreaking to me to see that it's a struggle now to maintain a balance between materialism and naturalism.

The ogreish cement-head mentality demonstrated by the wingnutjob right is just an ironic testament to why these things happen.

Dude I'm focusing on oil because you said oil. I get the metaphor. You choose your words poorly. The world will continue to revolve.

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 06:26 PM
Let them suffer the consequences of their ill thought out policies. And refuse to change those polices when they wake up and decide that they were wrong.

Chloe
06-18-2015, 06:59 PM
An endangered species is an unfit species. This mindless beast got in the way of American pioneers' progress. Protecting such creatures increases poverty.

It's either us or them. Man Must Exploit Nature or Man Will Be Forced to Exploit His Fellow Man. ​But some people like to do that, just as eco-eunuchs get a thrill out of making the common people suffer.

You're a fool

PattyHill
06-18-2015, 08:14 PM
Ah, who cares. Small price to pay for cheap gas, IPads and McFuckwiches.

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/environment/in-the-us-the-eastern-puma-is-declared-extinct.html



http://www.wisconsingazette.com/images/dailies/2015-06-17/eastern_puma_web.jpg

that sucks

PattyHill
06-18-2015, 08:15 PM
How about in Britain?

The NIH sets all the standards and caps the spending. Old people starve to death in the hospital to save costs.


I'm sure you have a link for such a claim.

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 08:17 PM
I'm sure you have a link for such a claim.

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9591814/Patients-starve-and-die-of-thirst-on-hospital-wards.html)


The death toll was disclosed by the Government amid mounting concern over the dignity of patients on NHS wards.

They will also fuel concerns about care homes, as it was disclosed that eight people starved to death and 21 people died of thirst while in care.

Last night there were warnings that they must prompt action by the NHS and care home regulators to prevent further deaths among patients.

The Office for National Statistics figures also showed that:

* as well as 43 people who starved to death, 287 people were recorded by doctors as being malnourished when they died in hospitals;

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 08:20 PM
Let them suffer the consequences of their ill thought out policies. And refuse to change those polices when they wake up and decide that they were wrong.
Policies from 84 years ago?

Bob
06-18-2015, 08:22 PM
It's a fuckin Mountain Lion. We have thousands of em here... Pick a few western ones up...drop them in the east...KAPOW! No more extinct Eastern Puma...

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

Samples

1993August. (Attack #6) A 6-year-old boy, Devin Foote, was attacked in the Manzano River area of the Los Padres National Forest, Santa Barbara County. This attack is not recognized by the California Department of Fish and Game because injuries were not verified by a physician, nor was the attack site investigated by an agency (MLCSP, SDUT 4/15/95, A3; LAT 4/3/95; United Conservation Alliance News 3(4):4-5, Oct. 1993; E. Lee Fitzhugh, personal communication 1/15/04)
September. (Attack #7) A young cougar bit a 10-year-old girl camping with her family at Paso Picacho Campground in Cuyamaca Rancho State Park. The girl was slightly injured. The mountain lion believed to have attacked the girl was tracked down and killed. (SDUT 12/11/94 A1; MLCSP)
199423 April. (Attack #8, death #4) Barbara Schoener, 40, a friend of my sister and a long-distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by an 80-pound female mountain lion in Northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area. No one observed the attack, and hence there are conflicting hypotheses about what occurred.
Barbara's husband Pete Schoener says that the lion was probably hidden on a ledge above the trail and pounced on Barbara as she passed underneath the lion. The lion knocked her down a slope and she was badly wounded, but she fought the animal with her arms before she was killed. Then the lion dragged her farther before eating most of her body.
The accounts in the paper said that investigators theorize that the lion surprised her by sneaking within 20' behind her on the tight trail and then ambushing Schoener, knocking her 30' down an 80° slope. Indications are she already was badly wounded but briefly fought the animal there before the lion finished the kill.
The trail is part of the Western States 100-Mile Endurance Run trail. Barbara was the first person in California in the 20th Century to die from a mountain lion attack.
The mountain lion may have been protecting its one-month-old cub by "defending" its territory against intruders, or may have "recognized" Barbara as prey because she was "running away" from the lion.
Barbara Schoener was 5' 11" and 140-150 pounds. (The papers incorrectly gave 5' 8" and 120 pounds.)
(SDUT 5/8/94, A3; 5/13/94, A3; Pete Schoener, via an email from my sister Connie Vavricek)

Ethereal
06-18-2015, 08:23 PM
I thought big government regulations were supposed to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Or is the argument that we don't have enough big government regulations?

From my perspective, a stronger private property rights regime would have helped to prevent this. People could have developed these animal populations on private land for private purposes and would have likely contributed to the species survival, much in the same way private property rights contribute to the survival of species like cows, pigs, and chickens.

PattyHill
06-18-2015, 08:24 PM
Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9591814/Patients-starve-and-die-of-thirst-on-hospital-wards.html)

Thanks. But was that really to be blamed on the NHS? or on poor training at the hospitals?


Mr Cameron announced that nurses would have to undertake hourly ward rounds to check whether patients are hungry, in pain, or need help going to the lavatory. It followed spot checks by NHS regulators, which found that half of 100 hospitals were failing basic standards to treat elderly with dignity, and ensure they were properly fed.

Mr Cameron announced that nurses would have to undertake hourly ward rounds to check whether patients are hungry, in pain, or need help going to the lavatory. It followed spot checks by NHS regulators, which found that half of 100 hospitals were failing basic standards to treat elderly with dignity, and ensure they were properly fed.

The investigation found patients were left hungry, unwashed or given the wrong drugs because of the "casual indifference of staff".

But when he was admitted to St George's Hospital in Tooting, South London, staff ignored repeated reminders from Mr Gorny and his family to give him the tablets, and he became severely dehydrated after being refused water.

"To ensure that this happens, and to root out bad practice, the CQC has increased the number of unannounced inspections that it undertakes, and in winter this year it will publish its findings from a series of inspections looking specifically at dignity and nutrition.
"We are also investing £140 million so that nurses can spend more time with patients, not paperwork.


Horrible in either case. Just not sure it's because they have the NHS system as opposed to our system. I could tell you horror tales about our system too.

Bob
06-18-2015, 08:24 PM
Mountain Lions are not kitty cats. They are called lions for a sound reason. They are dangerous.

You would not want the wild lions from Zoos running free and there is a good reason the mountain lion gets hunted.

Bob
06-18-2015, 08:30 PM
Nice spin...


The debate existed over their existence because people still said that they had spotted them. Most experts agreed that it was probably due to mistaken identity.

By the way, the government doesn't run hospitals in a single payer system. It only acts as the insurance company.

Regulation of hospitals is running them. Our hospitals are tied down with regulations.

Chloe
06-18-2015, 08:31 PM
Mountain Lions are not kitty cats. They are called lions for a sound reason. They are dangerous.

You would not want the wild lions from Zoos running free and there is a good reason the mountain lion gets hunted.

I.....must......resist......commenting.......reees sssiiiiissssttt Chhhhloooeeee

Bob
06-18-2015, 08:50 PM
I.....must......resist......commenting.......reees sssiiiiissssttt Chhhhloooeeee

Did you study the list of the dead humans?

Probably not.

sachem
06-18-2015, 09:29 PM
I.....must......resist......commenting.......reees sssiiiiissssttt ChhhhloooeeeeGood girl.

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 09:41 PM
Policies from 84 years ago?

Current policies

Peter1469
06-18-2015, 09:47 PM
Thanks. But was that really to be blamed on the NHS? or on poor training at the hospitals?



Horrible in either case. Just not sure it's because they have the NHS system as opposed to our system. I could tell you horror tales about our system too.

Their system relies on annual appropriations of funds from the government. We don't have people starving to death in US hospitals because of official policy.

Private Pickle
06-18-2015, 10:36 PM
Current policies

Which policies and which species?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 02:55 AM
Did you study the list of the dead humans?

Probably not.

honeybees kill more people every year than a mountain lion could ever hope to kill in a decade. Where's the faux outrage from you over bees? Mosquitos same thing. Dogs, cows, sharks, all kill more humans than mountain lions do for various reasons. Humans kill more humans than anything but yet you aren't declaring our species as dangerous. Lightning kills more people per year than mountain lions kill in a decade yet nothing from you. You always fail to understand the importance of biodiversity when you make comments like that, and you just sound ridiculous.

Bob
06-19-2015, 07:58 AM
honeybees kill more people every year than a mountain lion could ever hope to kill in a decade. Where's the faux outrage from you over bees? Mosquitos same thing. Dogs, cows, sharks, all kill more humans than mountain lions do for various reasons. Humans kill more humans than anything but yet you aren't declaring our species as dangerous. Lightning kills more people per year than mountain lions kill in a decade yet nothing from you. You always fail to understand the importance of biodiversity when you make comments like that, and you just sound ridiculous.

Were it you and not me saying "did you study the list of humans killed" and I chatted you up about bees, etc. surely you would tell me that there are billions of bees, and huge numbers of those others mentioned."

I get a sense of anger from your post merely because I urge a rather small population numbers of predators along with the list of dead humans be considered, and you seem to act as if humans hiking on trails deserve death.

I believe humans lives more worthy. As simple as that.

When that mountain lion stalked the woman hiker, slaughtered her and hid the body to eat later, you sure should have been the one poster to explain your points to her family.

Bet you would truly have comforted them by telling them the story you just told to me.

PattyHill
06-19-2015, 08:06 AM
honeybees kill more people every year than a mountain lion could ever hope to kill in a decade. Where's the faux outrage from you over bees? Mosquitos same thing. Dogs, cows, sharks, all kill more humans than mountain lions do for various reasons. Humans kill more humans than anything but yet you aren't declaring our species as dangerous. Lightning kills more people per year than mountain lions kill in a decade yet nothing from you. You always fail to understand the importance of biodiversity when you make comments like that, and you just sound ridiculous.


Biodiversity is important. To not have any mountain lions in the east - this will end up being a bad thing for them.

There is of course always friction when humans and wild animals are in the same territory. It is tragic when a mountain lion kills a human. But as we saw from the recent shark attacks, this world cannot be guaranteed safe. We need to be cautious, but even the most cautious of us runs risks daily.

So Bob, valuing humans over all, doesn't get that humans are hurt when biodiversity diminishes. For example - fewer mountain lions, more deer, more ticks, more risk of lyme disease (that's just one crude example). We need to balance the risks against what biodiversity brings us.

You are right; we can't make the world perfectly safe; and we need biodiversity.

Of course we are sad when someone is killed by a wild animal. Luckily, mountain lion, wolves, bears kill very few of us. To eradicate those species for so little risk would be stupid of us.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 08:14 AM
How about in Britain?

The NIH sets all the standards and caps the spending. Old people starve to death in the hospital to save costs.

God Save the Queen and all!

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 08:22 AM
Leave it to the Feds it make something extinct that is not!

http://michiganradio.org/post/new-photos-cougars-michigan-bring-total-26-sightings-2008#stream/0

The Eastern Puma or Cougar is native to MI with the trail cameras that hunters and wildlife buffs are using we are getting more and more photos of them.

The MI DNR actually estimates that we have the Puma or Cougar in about half of MI 83 counties

Chloe
06-19-2015, 08:29 AM
Were it you and not me saying "did you study the list of humans killed" and I chatted you up about bees, etc. surely you would tell me that there are billions of bees, and huge numbers of those others mentioned."

I get a sense of anger from your post merely because I urge a rather small population numbers of predators along with the list of dead humans be considered, and you seem to act as if humans hiking on trails deserve death.

I believe humans lives more worthy. As simple as that.

When that mountain lion stalked the woman hiker, slaughtered her and hid the body to eat later, you sure should have been the one poster to explain your points to her family.

Bet you would truly have comforted them by telling them the story you just told to me.

I'm more frustratedly bored with your point of view when it comes to biodiversity and wildlife than I am angry at this point. All wildlife can be dangerous but we are far more dangerous to those other animals than they ever will be towards us. Your own viewpoint proves this as you seem cool with killing off large parts of predator populations because of a perceived danger that is so incredibly rare.

As as for the rest of your post, just shutup.

The Sage of Main Street
06-19-2015, 08:30 AM
The government acting like the private sector is covered in red flags and impending doom. You're dishonestly omitting the unelected private-sector dictatorship's scare stories: IF WE LET UNIONIZATION INCREASE, EVER COMPANY IN THE NATION WILL GO BANKRUPT AND THERE WON'T BE ANY JOBS FOR YOU GREEDY LITTLE PEOPLE!!!!

Bob
06-19-2015, 08:45 AM
I'm more frustratedly bored with your point of view when it comes to biodiversity and wildlife than I am angry at this point. All wildlife can be dangerous but we are far more dangerous to those other animals than they ever will be towards us. Your own viewpoint proves this as you seem cool with killing off large parts of predator populations because of a perceived danger that is so incredibly rare.

As as for the rest of your post, just shutup.

I really believe you don't give a tinkers damn about humans.

You ascribe views to me I simply do not hold. Then hammer me over your strawman.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 09:00 AM
I really believe you don't give a tinkers damn about humans.

You ascribe views to me I simply do not hold. Then hammer me over your strawman.

yeah thats it

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 09:28 AM
Chloe going to work:
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.EDrF1mpSeFY3ygjmX3vdgg&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 09:31 AM
Leave it to the Feds it make something extinct that is not!

http://michiganradio.org/post/new-photos-cougars-michigan-bring-total-26-sightings-2008#stream/0

The Eastern Puma or Cougar is native to MI with the trail cameras that hunters and wildlife buffs are using we are getting more and more photos of them.

The MI DNR actually estimates that we have the Puma or Cougar in about half of MI 83 counties

I hear they spotted feral cats in Detroit too, did you bother to read the article?

Bob
06-19-2015, 09:31 AM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) going to work:
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.EDrF1mpSeFY3ygjmX3vdgg&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Chloe busy insulting is her idea of work

gamewell45
06-19-2015, 09:31 AM
Ah, who cares. Small price to pay for cheap gas, IPads and McFuckwiches.

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/environment/in-the-us-the-eastern-puma-is-declared-extinct.html



http://www.wisconsingazette.com/images/dailies/2015-06-17/eastern_puma_web.jpg

Wow, I never even knew they did exist in the east at all. Every now and then where I live, you might spot a mountain lion but never saw a puma. Either way it's too bad they are now extinct.

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 09:33 AM
Bob going to work:

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=JN.G0KQbJ8leCElJhz2Fw6oiw&w=99&h=100&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2

Chloe
06-19-2015, 09:38 AM
Chloe busy insulting is her idea of work

I would tell you to go take a hike but you'd probably consider that to be a death threat on the account of all the rampaging mountain lions and other animals that "belong in zoos" out there killing off us poor innocent humans.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 09:46 AM
I hear they spotted feral cats in Detroit too, did you bother to read the article?

Yes I did, just because we don't have a breeding population, which we have photos of the Kittens for whatever they call them as well. Does not mean that the are extinct. extinct means that they are Gone

Now remember my son works for the DNR, not as an officer so what the hell would I know?

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 09:53 AM
Cougars are not an Issue in MI

The Timber Wolf Restoration has devastated many small towns in the UP. They once had a thriving population of deer and the Archery and Firearm seasons brought many hunters into those communities. They were trying to reach a population of about 500 Wolves in the UP of MI but we are at nearly 2000.

Every time that the our Department of Natural Recourses try's to implement population controls, the group from up state NY that fought for and was able to get the feds to re introduce the Wolf get a court injunction.

Now MI groups are lobbing to restore the Wolf population to Up State NY, and the same people that wanted them in MI are trying to prevent it. They only have one more chance to block the introduction and when that fails, MI will be supplying the great State of NY with 200 Timber Wolves.

According to the good people of NY that will devastate the wildlife populations in those areas and hurt the local economies. And they are right.

Funny how it works when it is coming to your town.

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 09:58 AM
Yes I did, just because we don't have a breeding population, which we have photos of the Kittens for whatever they call them as well. Does not mean that the are extinct. extinct means that they are Gone

Now remember my son works for the DNR, not as an officer so what the hell would I know?

That's nice.

Don't take it the wrong way if I still ask you to substantiate your claims. That first one didn't go so well for you.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 10:02 AM
Cougars are not an Issue in MI

The Timber Wolf Restoration has devastated many small towns in the UP. They once had a thriving population of deer and the Archery and Firearm seasons brought many hunters into those communities. They were trying to reach a population of about 500 Wolves in the UP of MI but we are at nearly 2000.

Every time that the our Department of Natural Recourses try's to implement population controls, the group from up state NY that fought for and was able to get the feds to re introduce the Wolf get a court injunction.

Now MI groups are lobbing to restore the Wolf population to Up State NY, and the same people that wanted them in MI are trying to prevent it. They only have one more chance to block the introduction and when that fails, MI will be supplying the great State of NY with 200 Timber Wolves.

According to the good people of NY that will devastate the wildlife populations in those areas and hurt the local economies. And they are right.

Funny how it works when it is coming to your town.

They are basically worried about losing out on selling more hunting licenses, hunting equipment, and guns since a natural predator will reduce populations of "game" animals. Sorry but oh well.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 10:12 AM
They are basically worried about losing out on selling more hunting licenses, hunting equipment, and guns since a natural predator will reduce populations of "game" animals. Sorry but oh well.

Farmers losing Cattle, Family owned restaurants and hotels and motels having to close. Local economies closing down because people no longer have jobs and move away. Farmers that loose calves to the wolf population.

I have NO issue with the Wolves being in the UP, but they do not have a predator. So they are now over populated.

I understand that you never have cared about thee hardships that some polices have on the poor. Liberals never do.

What needs to happen is the populations need to be managed. And that means that some harvesting of the Timber Wolf for the fur trade is needed. We don't want them gone they are cool, but they can't go unchecked. or people will fight back and that is good for Nobody.

for example if you drive through the up you will see these signs that have a wolf head with SSS written across it which stands for shoot shovel and shutup. They were trying to buy one of the dogs that had Canine flu to put out in the wild and infect the wolf population which would devastate it.

That is what you get when you don't care about people

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 10:13 AM
You're dishonestly omitting the unelected private-sector dictatorship's scare stories: IF WE LET UNIONIZATION INCREASE, EVER COMPANY IN THE NATION WILL GO BANKRUPT AND THERE WON'T BE ANY JOBS FOR YOU GREEDY LITTLE PEOPLE!!!!

I don't know if you are confused or something but you're arguing with the wrong guy.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 10:14 AM
They are basically worried about losing out on selling more hunting licenses, hunting equipment, and guns since a natural predator will reduce populations of "game" animals. Sorry but oh well.

Such an unfair and untrue stereotype. I could be just as trite.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 10:21 AM
Wow, I never even knew they did exist in the east at all. Every now and then where I live, you might spot a mountain lion but never saw a puma. Either way it's too bad they are now extinct.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 10:21 AM
Such an unfair and untrue stereotype. I could be just as trite.

Chloe is a very kind person when it comes to animals, she has a soft heart, and does not understand hunting, trapping, and just how important that is to the wildlife populations in the USA.

For example the Whitetail Deer was nearly extinct at one time as well as the Canada Goose. Hunters put up the money to restore those populations and they fund nearly all of the wildlife and natural recourses management in the USA

Hunters have pumped billions of dollars over the years into the restoration of habitat and the protection of species in this country

But if you were to ask liberals like here to donate to a fund to restore the million of dollars in revenue lost by people, like those in the UP that no longer have the tourist trade from hunting. they would donate nothing. They really don't care about those people.

Truth be told if we were to follow their plan for wildlife management there would be about a third of all of the species that we currently have in the USA, so while they think that they are compassionate, they really are quite cruel

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 10:29 AM
Chloe is a very kind person when it comes to animals, she has a soft heart, and does not understand hunting, trapping, and just how important that is to the wildlife populations in the USA.

For example the Whitetail Deer was nearly extinct at one time as well as the Canada Goose. Hunters put up the money to restore those populations and they fund nearly all of the wildlife and natural recourses management in the USA

Hunters have pumped billions of dollars over the years into the restoration of habitat and the protection of species in this country

But if you were to ask liberals like here to donate to a fund to restore the million of dollars in revenue lost by people, like those in the UP that no longer have the tourist trade from hunting. they would donate nothing. They really don't care about those people.

Truth be told if we were to follow their plan for wildlife management there would be about a third of all of the species that we currently have in the USA, so while they think that they are compassionate, they really are quite cruel
Chloe has good intentions for her cause but there is an underlying anger there that is in a way sinister and completely unmoveable.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 10:31 AM
They are basically worried about losing out on selling more hunting licenses, hunting equipment, and guns since a natural predator will reduce populations of "game" animals. Sorry but oh well.

Also there is either an ignorance or willful neglect to understand the issue from all sides.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 10:38 AM
Also there is either an ignorance or willful neglect to understand the issue from all sides.

You have to understand that the left is not concerned about the other side. They want control.

Every year when we do the winter deer yard counts to see how many deer staved to death we send out letters to all of the anti hunting groups asking them for help?

They never respond, because they understand what happens and how cruel it is! This is part of the reason it was a good idea to introduce the Wolf into MI, the hunters could not keep up. But now that we have 5 times as many as they wanted it is just as bad the other way.

Within a few years we will have the Wolf, like the Bears going into urban areas because they have run out of food in the wild. At that point Dogs, Cats, Actually that is one of the things I like about wolves they love to eat cats. And even children will be on the grocery list.

So all forms of wildlife need to be managed. Nature is cruel in the boom and busy cycle that she uses.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 10:42 AM
You have to understand that the left is not concerned about the other side. They want control.

Every year when we do the winter deer yard counts to see how many deer staved to death we send out letters to all of the anti hunting groups asking them for help?

They never respond, because they understand what happens and how cruel it is! This is part of the reason it was a good idea to introduce the Wolf into MI, the hunters could not keep up. But now that we have 5 times as many as they wanted it is just as bad the other way.

Within a few years we will have the Wolf, like the Bears going into urban areas because they have run out of food in the wild. At that point Dogs, Cats, Actually that is one of the things I like about wolves they love to eat cats. And even children will be on the grocery list.

So all forms of wildlife need to be managed. Nature is cruel in the boom and busy cycle that she uses.

I understand it...they don't...

A good book is called 'Beast in the Garden'. It's about Boulder, CO and surrounding areas and their struggles with Mountain Lions.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:11 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) has good intentions for her cause but there is an underlying anger there that is in a way sinister and completely unmoveable.

Unmoveable, possibly....sinister, no

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:13 PM
You have to understand that the left is not concerned about the other side. They want control.

Every year when we do the winter deer yard counts to see how many deer staved to death we send out letters to all of the anti hunting groups asking them for help?

They never respond, because they understand what happens and how cruel it is! This is part of the reason it was a good idea to introduce the Wolf into MI, the hunters could not keep up. But now that we have 5 times as many as they wanted it is just as bad the other way.

Within a few years we will have the Wolf, like the Bears going into urban areas because they have run out of food in the wild. At that point Dogs, Cats, Actually that is one of the things I like about wolves they love to eat cats. And even children will be on the grocery list.

So all forms of wildlife need to be managed. Nature is cruel in the boom and busy cycle that she uses.

Its always wildlife's fault, it's always wildlife that needs to be "managed". Humans are just the responsible bystander in most every scenario it seems. Wildlife is looking for food, oh the horror, because their habitats keep diminishing because of our doing and yet THEY need to be managed.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:15 PM
Unmoveable, possibly....sinister, no

Sorry...watching a hunter die while tending to the wounded deer is somewhat sinister.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:15 PM
Its always wildlife's fault, it's always wildlife that needs to be "managed". Humans are just the responsible bystander in most every scenario it seems.

Correct although we certainly are not a bystander.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:16 PM
Sorry...watching a hunter die while tending to the wounded deer is somewhat sinister.

I view most forms of hunting as sinister

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:17 PM
Correct although we certainly are not a bystander.

Oh true, we are the instigator, we are the cause, but yet we rarely manage ourselves

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:21 PM
I view most forms of hunting as sinister

Sinister + Sinister = more sinister

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:23 PM
Sinister + Sinister = more sinister

Its equally sinister to leave the deer in pain and help the hunter, but the only difference is that the deer didn't create the act of violence for sport.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:23 PM
Oh true, we are the instigator, we are the cause, but yet we rarely manage ourselves

We aren't an instigator or the cause either. We also happen to be native to this planet. We just happen to be the most intelligent and capabable life on Earth. I happen to be cool with that. You don't.

Again, we are learning to better manage ourselves and our planet every day. You should be happy and point out our successes instead of hell bent on changing the human species forever by making everyone leaf eaters...

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:25 PM
Its equally sinister to leave the deer in pain as help the hunter, but the only difference is that the deer didn't create the act of violence for sport.

That viewpoint, the one that equates the human species to those of others while completely ignoring the benefits to wildlife management is nothing but sinister Chloe. It's a dark viewpoint and it has to lead you to a lot of anger and frustration.

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:25 PM
I would tell you to go take a hike but you'd probably consider that to be a death threat on the account of all the rampaging mountain lions and other animals that "belong in zoos" out there killing off us poor innocent humans.

I am not sure but it could be that where you live, there are no Mounain lions. But here we have had people, women and children included, killed by them.

I have not yet called to exterminate said lions even though you told a huge lie by saying tht is my mission.

If you hike with no mounain lion danger, thank others who killed them.

Do you really understand LION? What does that mean to you?

You could hike here and quite innocently be killed and turned into dinner. But why would we want to protect humans when per Chloe, let's not do that and let's save lions.

If you are a vegetarian, why can't lions be vegetarians?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:28 PM
We aren't an instigator or the cause either. We also happen to be native to this planet. We just happen to be the most intelligent and capabable life on Earth. I happen to be cool with that. You don't.

Again, we are learning to better manage ourselves and our planet every day. You should be happy and point out our successes instead of hell bent on changing the human species forever by making everyone leaf eaters...

Im not going to pat people on the back when there is still so much work to do. There are encouraging actions that I see and am happy for but that doesn't mean I'm going to take my foot off the peddle or let it distract me from keeping the issue relevant.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 12:30 PM
Its always wildlife's fault, it's always wildlife that needs to be "managed". Humans are just the responsible bystander in most every scenario it seems. Wildlife is looking for food, oh the horror, because their habitats keep diminishing because of our doing and yet THEY need to be managed.

Actually Yes God made man the steward over the earth and it's creatures in the garden of Eden. Nothing has changed.

They are a renewable resource, so they can be harvested and we actually can have higher numbers.

You see there are a lot of things that you don't consider, Just look at what would happen in the years before disease would claim 90% of the herds of animals.

Crop damage would be massive. Doubling and tripling the cost of food around the world. Most liberals never take that into consideration. but they claim to care about the poor. Food shortages would be the norm not the exception.

The funding for habitat restoration and clean up would be gone. As this is all furnished by pitman Robertson, and the taxes hunters willingly pay for license and access to land.

None of this ever is taken into account

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:31 PM
Its equally sinister to leave the deer in pain and help the hunter, but the only difference is that the deer didn't create the act of violence for sport.
Chloe
Humans are far easier to stalk than a Mountain Lion is. They pad silently stalking hikers. They also eat meat.

I could understand your defense were they vegetarians, but they eat meat.

Humans if available.

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:32 PM
Actually Yes God made man the steward over the earth and it's creatures in the garden of Eden. Nothing has changed.

They are a renewable resource, so they can be harvested and we actually can have higher numbers.

You see there are a lot of things that you don't consider, Just look at what would happen in the years before disease would claim 90% of the herds of animals.

Crop damage would be massive. Doubling and tripling the cost of food around the world. Most liberals never take that into consideration. but they claim to care about the poor. Food shortages would be the norm not the exception.

The funding for habitat restoration and clean up would be gone. As this is all furnished by pitman Robertson, and the taxes hunters willingly pay for license and access to land.

None of this ever is taken into account

:applause:

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:32 PM
I am not sure but it could be that where you live, there are no Mounain lions. But here we have had people, women and children included, killed by them.

I have not yet called to exterminate said lions even though you told a huge lie by saying tht is my mission.

If you hike with no mounain lion danger, thank others who killed them.

Do you really understand LION? What does that mean to you?

You could hike here and quite innocently be killed and turned into dinner. But why would we want to protect humans when per Chloe, let's not do that and let's save lions.

If you are a vegetarian, why can't lions be vegetarians?

I hike, camp, and rock climb in environments that have bears, wolves, cougars, lynx, bobcats, coyotes, foxes and rattlesnakes. I'm still breathing.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 12:33 PM
I view most forms of hunting as sinister

But I bet that you still have not volunteered to go through a wintering area and see all the ones that starve and die from disease!

Here is a hint the smell is intense. So if they are going to die anyway. Why should we not use the meat, hide, and the sport to raise money to care for them?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:34 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)
Humans are far easier to stalk than a Mountain Lion is. They pad silently stalking hikers. They also eat meat.

I could understand your defense were they vegetarians, but they eat meat.

Humans if available.

False fear

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:35 PM
Im not going to pat people on the back when there is still so much work to do. There are encouraging actions that I see and am happy for but that doesn't mean I'm going to take my foot off the peddle or let it distract me from keeping the issue relevant.

The relevant issue here Chloe is that you have a very dark side to you. One that would allow you to watch another human being die for shooting a deer, legally and actually contributing to the encouraging actions you speak of. That stance of yours puts me on the defensive, it makes me believe you are somewhat extremist and it makes me think you haven't thought things completely through yet.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:36 PM
Actually Yes God made man the steward over the earth and it's creatures in the garden of Eden. Nothing has changed.

They are a renewable resource, so they can be harvested and we actually can have higher numbers.

You see there are a lot of things that you don't consider, Just look at what would happen in the years before disease would claim 90% of the herds of animals.

Crop damage would be massive. Doubling and tripling the cost of food around the world. Most liberals never take that into consideration. but they claim to care about the poor. Food shortages would be the norm not the exception.

The funding for habitat restoration and clean up would be gone. As this is all furnished by pitman Robertson, and the taxes hunters willingly pay for license and access to land.

None of this ever is taken into account

Sorry, I don't believe that top part. As for the rest it's basically like saying we have to kill a species in order to protect it. I find that to be nonsensical.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:39 PM
False fear

While I agree Mountain Lions are not typically a threat to humans, they do need to be monitored, tracked, sometimes relocated and sometimes killed because they are an alpha predator.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:39 PM
Sorry, I don't believe that top part. As for the rest it's basically like saying we have to kill a species in order to protect it. I find that to be nonsensical.

Have you researched it?

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:39 PM
Im not going to pat people on the back when there is still so much work to do. There are encouraging actions that I see and am happy for but that doesn't mean I'm going to take my foot off the peddle or let it distract me from keeping the issue relevant.


Cougars are the largest members of the cat family in North America. Adult males average approximately 140 pounds but in a perfect situation may weigh 180 pounds and measure 7-8 feet long from nose to tip of tail. Adult males stand about 30 inches tall at the shoulder. Adult female cougars average about 25 percent smaller than males. Cougars vary in color from reddish-brown to tawny (deerlike) to gray, with a black tip on their long tail.
Cougars occur throughout Washington where suitable cover and prey are found. The cougar population for the year 2008 was estimated to be 2000 to 2,500 animals. The cougar population in eastern Washington is declining and the westside population is stable. The Department of Fish and Wildlife has nine management zones around the state designated for "maintain" or "decline," and adjusts harvest levels accordingly.
Wildlife offices throughout the state receive hundreds of calls a year regarding sightings, attacks on livestock and pets, and cougar/human confrontations. Our increasing human populations and decreasing cougar habitat may create more opportunities for such encounters.



While recreating in cougar habitat, you should:

Hike in small groups and make enough noise to avoid surprising a cougar.
Keep your camp clean and store food and garbage in double plastic bags.
Keep small children close to the group, preferably in plain sight just ahead of you.
Do not approach dead animals, especially deer or elk; they could have been cougar prey left for a later meal.


Chloe, I would mourn your loss if while hiking you were eaten by a Mountain lion.

They eat vegetarians.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:39 PM
The relevant issue here Chloe is that you have a very dark side to you. One that would allow you to watch another human being die for shooting a deer, legally and actually contributing to the encouraging actions you speak of. That stance of yours puts me on the defensive, it makes me believe you are somewhat extremist and it makes me think you haven't thought things completely through yet.

I don't know how to respond to that. In my opinion the darker side is the extremely selfish side which is that humans have ultimate dominion and can do whatever they please to other living creatures.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:41 PM
While I agree Mountain Lions are not typically a threat to humans, they do need to be monitored, tracked, sometimes relocated and sometimes killed because they are an alpha predator.

i have no issues with monitoring, tracking and sometimes relocating if necessary, but I still question as to what makes us right and them wrong.

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:42 PM
Sorry, I don't believe that top part. As for the rest it's basically like saying we have to kill a species in order to protect it. I find that to be nonsensical.

If you walked up a trail and suddenly encountered a dozen of them hunting, would they think nicely of you over your stated views?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:44 PM
Chloe, I would mourn your loss if while hiking you were eaten by a Mountain lion.

They eat vegetarians.

I'll be fine

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:44 PM
If you walked up a trail and suddenly encountered a dozen of them hunting, would they think nicely of you over your stated views?

This isnt a science fiction movie

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:44 PM
I don't know how to respond to that. In my opinion the darker side is the extremely selfish side which is that humans have ultimate dominion and can do whatever they please to other living creatures.

Yet that idea really only exists on the fringe, just like the idea of watching another human die while tending to the deer he shot really only exists on the fringe.

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:45 PM
I don't know how to respond to that. In my opinion the darker side is the extremely selfish side which is that humans have ultimate dominion and can do whatever they please to other living creatures.


You suddenly face a Salt Water Crocodile. Who wins the fight?

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:46 PM
If you walked up a trail and suddenly encountered a dozen of them hunting, would they think nicely of you over your stated views?

Hey Bob! I think Judge Judy is coming on! Run along and let the adults talk...that's a good Bob...

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:46 PM
This isnt a science fiction movie

Why do I feel it must be when your talking?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:46 PM
Yet that idea really only exists on the fringe, just like the idea of watching another human die while tending to the deer he shot really only exists on the fringe.

I don't pretend that some of my beliefs are not the norm for most people.

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:46 PM
Hey Bob! I think Judge Judy is coming on! Run along and let the adults talk...that's a good Bob...

You finish watching her. I will hold your spot.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:47 PM
You suddenly face a Salt Water Crocodile. Who wins the fight?

Considering I'm a 120 pound human id say the 1,000 pound reptile wins

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:48 PM
i have no issues with monitoring, tracking and sometimes relocating if necessary, but I still question as to what makes us right and them wrong.

Well for starters we understand the concept of right and wrong.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 12:48 PM
Sorry, I don't believe that top part. As for the rest it's basically like saying we have to kill a species in order to protect it. I find that to be nonsensical.

So why were there so few Deer in colonial America! Why was it that the Pheasant, Turkey, and some of the Grouse were brought to the America's

Until you reached that Great plains there was little for them to eat.

The Good old days for North American Wild Games species is today! And it is because we take advantage of a renewable resource.

I understand you will never go to a deer yard and see the massive death that happens when there are too many, and remember that it is not just the deer, but all species that eat vegetation.

And you still can't tell me how everyone is going to ear, there are not going to be enough crops left as the deer, elk, antelope, and water fowl herds and flock increase?

Now what.

You issue is that you have lived a great life and have had parents that did a fantastic job in raising a fine person. but you did not learn that every action has a reaction and the cost of your intentions on the poor and lower middle class would be devastating.

Sure you and I would be OK that extra cost would not hurt, but to them it could mean the difference between food and housing.

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 12:49 PM
There are good people on both sides of the issue. No hunting and no predators means deer overpopulate and die from starvation and disease. Citing the good side of hunting without admitting we have killed most of the predators is disingenuous.

Unregulated hunting wipes out entire species. Hunting licenses do provide revenue to help protect all the wildlife. I don't think that most people would care about them without someone making them care.

The larger predators have been displaced because we have invaded & reduced their territory. I live an area that joins a Forever Wild tract. I encounter more wild animals than most. We have black bears, alligators, wild hogs, bobcats and many other smaller predators. We co-exist by using common sense.

I don't see any reason to wipe out another species just because we can or because they are sometimes inconvenient.

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 12:49 PM
Ah, who cares. Small price to pay for cheap gas, IPads and McFuckwiches.

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/environment/in-the-us-the-eastern-puma-is-declared-extinct.html

"The last three eastern pumas were killed in 1930 in Tennessee, 1932 in New Brunswick and 1938 in Maine."

http://www.wisconsingazette.com/images/dailies/2015-06-17/eastern_puma_web.jpg
This is a great example of government efficiency. From 1938 to 2015 is how long it took the government to act. Awesome.

We have cougars in our back yard. We regularly get siting notices from our neighbors. When they hunt down and kill their prey, usually young raccoons, there are noisy, blood chilling yelps and screams. They kill neighborhood cats. And I have not seen any deer now for around two years.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:49 PM
Why do I feel it must be when your talking?

Cougars aren't pack animals

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 12:51 PM
I don't know how to respond to that. In my opinion the darker side is the extremely selfish side which is that humans have ultimate dominion and can do whatever they please to other living creatures.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/stewardship_of_gods_creation

It comes out of your people book???? just saying :)

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 12:51 PM
Nice spin...


The debate existed over their existence because people still said that they had spotted them. Most experts agreed that it was probably due to mistaken identity.

By the way, the government doesn't run hospitals in a single payer system. It only acts as the insurance company.
It is not insurance. It is thinly disguised Marxist wealth redistribution.

It is too expensive to actually use.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:51 PM
I don't pretend that some of my beliefs are not the norm for most people.

OK but don't be surprised when someone says you have a sinister side to you. They are on to something. ;)

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:51 PM
http://www.openbible.info/topics/stewardship_of_gods_creation

It comes out of your people book???? just saying :)

Yes I know where it comes from but you know I'm not a very religious person

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 12:52 PM
Shouldn't have made all those shoes out of them.


http://img.myshopping.com.au/rsz200/cache/3308/BB/4B32B36F4A1022B411EC1EF0C52828E27EE530.jpg?aHR_cDo vL0RpNjguc0hvcHBpbmcuY07tL0ltYWdlcy7kaS61My60NC6_N i6_MzM1MzQ-NjZhNDczMjU-MmQ0MjUxMzg-Nzc1NzA0MzQ0NDI0Ny_-MDB2NTAwLTAtMC3qcGcJLzMzMDgvQkIvNEIzMkIzNkY_QTEwMj JCNDExRUMxRUYwQzUyODI2RTI1RUU-MzAuanBn
...last shoe made in 1938...

Common Sense
06-19-2015, 12:52 PM
It is not insurance. It is thinly disguised Marxist wealth redistribution.

It is too expensive to actually use.

Huh?

It is insurance. For instance I am covered by OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan).

It's actually cheaper and more efficient than the US system.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 12:53 PM
Cougars aren't pack animals

Correct. And they are stunning and terrifying too. I had the privilege of watching one take down a young mule deer once at about 100 yards.

I wish they would have had things like the go pro back then. I was very cool. It is just when they move into an area that is frequented by man they need to be moved or eliminated. When something gets out of control, I think that people should do what is necessary to not only protect themselves but also the species.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:54 PM
OK but don't be surprised when someone says you have a sinister side to you. They are on to something. ;)

We all have a sinister side

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 12:55 PM
We all have a sinister side

Some more than others

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 12:55 PM
Yes I know where it comes from but you know I'm not a very religious person

The just consider what would happen to the food that we grow to feed cattle, pigs, chickens, and humans if you have herds that triple and quadruple in size.

Where are you going to get the food?

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:55 PM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1141783#post1141783)
Chloe, I would mourn your loss if while hiking you were eaten by a Mountain lion.

They eat vegetarians.


I'll be fine

I would not be shocked if this woman hiker said the same thing.

1994


23 April. (Attack #8, death #4) Barbara Schoener, 40, a friend of my sister and a long-distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by an 80-pound female mountain lion in Northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area. No one observed the attack, and hence there are conflicting hypotheses about what occurred.
Barbara's husband Pete Schoener says that the lion was probably hidden on a ledge above the trail and pounced on Barbara as she passed underneath the lion. The lion knocked her down a slope and she was badly wounded, but she fought the animal with her arms before she was killed. Then the lion dragged her farther before eating most of her body.
The accounts in the paper said that investigators theorize that the lion surprised her by sneaking within 20' behind her on the tight trail and then ambushing Schoener, knocking her 30' down an 80° slope. Indications are she already was badly wounded but briefly fought the animal there before the lion finished the kill.

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 12:55 PM
Like the vast majority of extinct species, most of them wouldn't have happened hadn't it been for our industrialization. Today, yesterday, 80 years ago. You can't seem to grasp that part of the point, you're focusing on oil or something.

I'm an environmentalist among other things, I love animals, the wilds. It's special to me and it is heartbreaking to me to see that it's a struggle now to maintain a balance between materialism and naturalism.

The ogreish cement-head mentality demonstrated by the wingnutjob right is just an ironic testament to why these things happen.
Almost every species that has ever lived has gone extinct. If your first sentence offers any clues you are either clueless or foolish. It is not my place to decide which.

Bob
06-19-2015, 12:57 PM
One thing I noticed Chloe is that the deaths due to Mountain Lions are becoming more and more frequent rather than less and less.

At one time, it was years and years between attacks.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:57 PM
I would not be shocked if this woman hiker said the same thing.

1994

Terrible accidents happen, but you don't overreact from it and you don't commit your life to fear

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 12:58 PM
There are good people on both sides of the issue. No hunting and no predators means deer overpopulate and die from starvation and disease. Citing the good side of hunting without admitting we have killed most of the predators is disingenuous.

Unregulated hunting wipes out entire species. Hunting licenses do provide revenue to help protect all the wildlife. I don't think that most people would care about them without someone making them care.

The larger predators have been displaced because we have invaded & reduced their territory. I live an area that joins a Forever Wild tract. I encounter more wild animals than most. We have black bears, alligators, wild hogs, bobcats and many other smaller predators. We co-exist by using common sense.

I don't see any reason to wipe out another species just because we can or because they are sometimes inconvenient.

No one is wiping out species anymore... We have not invaded their territory... We are native to this planet and our habitat is vast... Sue us!

Fact is cohabitation with wild animals is all fun and fuzzy until your kid gets eaten.

Here is a book, written by a conservationist and environmentalist who worked for the Boulder County Department of Wildlife. 'Beast in the Garden'

It talks about how people in Boulder tried to cohabit the same land as deer and elk. Very pretty and the worst you get is your garden eaten. Then the lions came given they were following their prey. Humans see them, are overjoyed they are cohabiting... The lions see them, overjoyed they aren't being hunted by dogs or shot at. The lions start to lose their fear of humans and as all predators do start to view them as either something to ignore or something to eat. They first start taking the pets, then they start taking the people.

Boulder isn't in the wild Rockies. It's a city of 80,000 and houses the University of Colorado. It was founded in the mid 1850's....

Chloe
06-19-2015, 12:59 PM
Some more than others

Im assuming that's aimed at me

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 12:59 PM
Biodiversity is important. To not have any mountain lions in the east - this will end up being a bad thing for them.


This claim might have been more believable 80 years ago...

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 12:59 PM
We all have a sinister side

who, me?

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.zha1ITiCnBxWDKyLj0wgbg&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:00 PM
One thing I noticed @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) is that the deaths due to Mountain Lions are becoming more and more frequent rather than less and less.

At one time, it was years and years between attacks.

yeah it still pretty much is

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:00 PM
As as for the rest of your post, just shutup.
Is this the ugly face of liberalism?

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:00 PM
Terrible accidents happen, but you don't overreact from it and you don't commit your life to fear

This wasn't an accident Chloe. This is what lions do. Now it is extremely rare but typically a product of human negligence with regards to managing their environment.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:02 PM
Is this the ugly face of liberalism?

No, just frustration due to having to respond to nonsense

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:03 PM
Yes I did, just because we don't have a breeding population, which we have photos of the Kittens for whatever they call them as well. Does not mean that the are extinct. extinct means that they are Gone

Now remember my son works for the DNR, not as an officer so what the hell would I know?
Do Not Resuscitate?"

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:03 PM
You finish watching her. I will hold your spot.

Wut?

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 01:04 PM
Do Not Resuscitate?"

Dept of Natural Resources.

Thanks for proving that RWNJ's don't know shit about anything environmental/natural.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:04 PM
We all have a sinister side

No argument there. We are humans.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:04 PM
Terrible accidents happen, but you don't overreact from it and you don't commit your life to fear

You mean like when one nut job out of 330 million people walks into a school, church, or theatre and shoots up the place, and the liberals want to take all the guns from law abiding citizens. Like that over reaction?

You see we all have our over reaction button, it is just what issues push it!

Common Sense
06-19-2015, 01:06 PM
You mean like when one nut job out of 330 million people walks into a school, church, or theatre and shoots up the place, and the liberals want to take all the guns from law abiding citizens. Like that over reaction?

You see we all have our over reaction button, it is just what issues push it!

Who said they want to take guns away from people?

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:06 PM
Do Not Resuscitate?"

Or Department of Natural Resources :) either way

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:07 PM
Dept of Natural Resources.

Thanks for proving that RWNJ's don't know $#@! about anything environmental/natural.

But they are the ones that actually take care of it? Go figure.

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:08 PM
I hike, camp, and rock climb in environments that have bears, wolves, cougars, lynx, bobcats, coyotes, foxes and rattlesnakes. I'm still breathing.
We can continue to hope. Human management and all that.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:09 PM
Who said they want to take guns away from people?

Just wait for it. I understand it is different up North, you already have most of the laws that I don't want down here.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:09 PM
We can continue to hope. Human management and all that.

Ouch

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:13 PM
Ouch

Just be safe. You are outdoors enough to a least carry a can of the Bear Pepper spray with you!

You are my favorite environmentalist and I want you around for a long time.!!

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 01:15 PM
Bear pepper spray lol.

"so let's go on this really long hike, we'll need to take some stuff but pack as light as possible, oh here, you carry the 5 gallon drum of bear pepper spray"

PattyHill
06-19-2015, 01:17 PM
Actually Yes God made man the steward over the earth and it's creatures in the garden of Eden. Nothing has changed.

That's the problem right there. Using a fictional story to justify us doing whatever we want to other living beings. Sad.

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:17 PM
Cougars aren't pack animals
I can tell you that last Tuesday there were two groups howling about 100-150 feet uphill from my house. The two groups were around 50 feet apart. They raised so much noise that every dog in the neighborhood started barking. Maybe they did not get the memo.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:18 PM
Bear pepper spray lol.

"so let's go on this really long hike, we'll need to take some stuff but pack as light as possible, oh here, you carry the 5 gallon drum of bear pepper spray"

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=best+bear+spray&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=31743950216&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15110640463650139062&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_3zx80uprzo_b

Comes out is a stream instead of the heavy mist. City folks really do deserve to get eaten by things.

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 01:18 PM
Who said they want to take guns away from people?

sshh....don't make them lose their spot in the script.....

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:19 PM
Bear pepper spray lol.

"so let's go on this really long hike, we'll need to take some stuff but pack as light as possible, oh here, you carry the 5 gallon drum of bear pepper spray"

I carry bear spray but it's a very manageable canister

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:19 PM
Huh?

It is insurance. For instance I am covered by OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan).

It's actually cheaper and more efficient than the US system.
Obamacare and all other socialist schemes are wealth redistribution schemes. Are you claiming that your government plan is not taking from quite a few to give services to others?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:19 PM
I can tell you that last Tuesday there were two groups howling about 100-150 feet uphill from my house. The two groups were around 50 feet apart. They raised so much noise that every dog in the neighborhood started barking. Maybe they did not get the memo.

You are mistaking wolves or coyotes for cougars

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:20 PM
We all have a sinister side
Then you should give up one of yours to someone who lacks one.

PattyHill
06-19-2015, 01:21 PM
Sorry, I don't believe that top part. As for the rest it's basically like saying we have to kill a species in order to protect it. I find that to be nonsensical.

And of course, if it weren't for humans, the habitat would be in a lot better shape. The predators and prey would balance each other out as they always have.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:21 PM
That's the problem right there. Using a fictional story to justify us doing whatever we want to other living beings. Sad.

Well I am sorry that you feel that why, in the end I hope that you are right. I will never know. but if I am right? it is going to be hell for you? literally

And of course doing what every the hell you want with other living things would not be stewardship it would be abuse.

The closets thing that you might understand is democrats trying to force the poor to remain on the system so they can be controlled. That is a really bad thing.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:21 PM
Then you should give up one of yours to someone who lacks one.

Um ok

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 01:21 PM
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=best+bear+spray&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=31743950216&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15110640463650139062&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_3zx80uprzo_b

Comes out is a stream instead of the heavy mist. City folks really do deserve to get eaten by things.

yeah, comes out in a stream all right...

:biglaugh:

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:22 PM
I carry bear spray but it's a very manageable canister

Thanks I like to know that you are safe! :)

PattyHill
06-19-2015, 01:22 PM
If you walked up a trail and suddenly encountered a dozen of them hunting, would they think nicely of you over your stated views?


Mountain lions don't hunt in a pack of a dozen.

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 01:23 PM
Funny how suddenly everyone is a fucking survivalist.

PattyHill
06-19-2015, 01:23 PM
Well for starters we understand the concept of right and wrong.


Not all of us. And there are many different interpretations of right and wrong around the world and over the eons.

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:23 PM
Considering I'm a 120 pound human id say the 1,000 pound reptile wins

I bet you would be one tasty meal for the reptile. See, it eats meat.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:23 PM
yeah, comes out in a stream all right...

:biglaugh:

Yes and my little nature girl already knew about it. I am so proud of her!!! You on the other hand may have to change our handle to

Captain Oblivious :)

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:24 PM
Dept of Natural Resources.

Thanks for proving that RWNJ's don't know $#@! about anything environmental/natural.
LOL. And some people take way too much for granted. As an engineer in defense work I am certain I could dazzle you with incomprehensible acronyms. I am too polite to do so.

PattyHill
06-19-2015, 01:26 PM
No one is wiping out species anymore... We have not invaded their territory... We are native to this planet and our habitat is vast... Sue us!

Fact is cohabitation with wild animals is all fun and fuzzy until your kid gets eaten.

Here is a book, written by a conservationist and environmentalist who worked for the Boulder County Department of Wildlife. 'Beast in the Garden'

It talks about how people in Boulder tried to cohabit the same land as deer and elk. Very pretty and the worst you get is your garden eaten. Then the lions came given they were following their prey. Humans see them, are overjoyed they are cohabiting... The lions see them, overjoyed they aren't being hunted by dogs or shot at. The lions start to lose their fear of humans and as all predators do start to view them as either something to ignore or something to eat. They first start taking the pets, then they start taking the people.

Boulder isn't in the wild Rockies. It's a city of 80,000 and houses the University of Colorado. It was founded in the mid 1850's....

Um yes we ARE wiping out species still. Might try googling it. And of course it was the whole subject of the op.

http://qz.com/259355/humans-are-wiping-out-species-a-thousand-times-faster-than-nature-can-create-new-ones/

http://populationmatters.org/2014/newswatch/geophysicist-humans-wipe-75-species/

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:26 PM
I bet you would be one tasty meal for the reptile. See, it eats meat.

Uhh yeah I know it eats meat, it's a crocodile

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:27 PM
Not all of us. And there are many different interpretations of right and wrong around the world and over the eons.

You're only proving my point. Mountain Lions never had this burden.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:27 PM
I bet you would be one tasty meal for the reptile. See, it eats meat.

I think that Chloe can handle herself.

I am in favor of trying to preserve all species but because of human populations and the fact that just letting them go is cruel. I think that they need to be managed and controlled.

This way we actually get higher populations so all people can enjoy them a revenue source and a renewable resource.

Can't think of a better way of doing it.

Common Sense
06-19-2015, 01:27 PM
Uhh yeah I know it eats meat, it's a crocodile

He's so weird.

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:28 PM
Mountain lions don't hunt in a pack of a dozen.

That was a poor example but humans have been attacked by several lions.
Chloe, whom I admire so much, is an avid hiker. I worry she underestimates mountain lions.

We had the case in CA where a couple of short hikers, married in fact, had discussed what happens during a lion attack.

Her husband hiked behind her and suddenly she hears him alarmed. He had his face in the jaws of the mountain lion. A lot don't consider how the lions attack. They may think the lion grabs your leg. It will grab your head and kill you with a hard bite to your neck.

Hikers not thinking of this, though vegetarians, are meat to the lion.

She talks as if she does not take mountain lions serious. I would hate to hear she was killed on a hike.

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:30 PM
You are mistaking wolves or coyotes for cougars
You are right. What we have are coyotes. I have seen one. It was mostly tan. It was unafraid.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:32 PM
Um yes we ARE wiping out species still. Might try googling it. And of course it was the whole subject of the op.

http://qz.com/259355/humans-are-wiping-out-species-a-thousand-times-faster-than-nature-can-create-new-ones/

http://populationmatters.org/2014/newswatch/geophysicist-humans-wipe-75-species/

Yeah...I can't be held responsible for what other nations do... I've already said that...

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:32 PM
And of course, if it weren't for humans, the habitat would be in a lot better shape. The predators and prey would balance each other out as they always have.
If you are that concerned about humans how do you feel about the church massacre? Was the murderer acting in good faith to cull the herd?

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:32 PM
He's so weird.

Will you please stop discussing members?

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 01:33 PM
You are right. What we have are coyotes. I have seen one. It was mostly tan. It was unafraid.

A coyote that is un afraid is likely rabid. Be careful!

They are very afraid and usually put a lot of distance between you and them if the see or smell you.

Common Sense
06-19-2015, 01:35 PM
Will you please stop discussing members?

Hi Bob!

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:35 PM
That was a poor example but humans have been attacked by several lions.
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), whom I admire so much, is an avid hiker. I worry she underestimates mountain lions.

We had the case in CA where a couple of short hikers, married in fact, had discussed what happens during a lion attack.

Her husband hiked behind her and suddenly she hears him alarmed. He had his face in the jaws of the mountain lion. A lot don't consider how the lions attack. They may think the lion grabs your leg. It will grab your head and kill you with a hard bite to your neck.

Hikers not thinking of this, though vegetarians, are meat to the lion.

She talks as if she does not take mountain lions serious. I would hate to hear she was killed on a hike.

I have a profound respect for the local wildlife here. When I go for a hike of any length I'm well prepared, i have a backpack with necessary supplies, I know what lives in that ecosystem, and I don't let my guard down especially when hiking alone. The difference is that I don't let the respect turn into fear nor do I walk on egg shells assuming death is around the corner. I take necessary precautions and then I take my chances. If one day something happens then I'll know for a fact I was as prepared as could be but the worst still happened. Statistically I have pretty much nothing to fear, but to assume I don't take wilderness seriously is just flat wrong.

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:36 PM
I think that Chloe can handle herself.

I am in favor of trying to preserve all species but because of human populations and the fact that just letting them go is cruel. I think that they need to be managed and controlled.

This way we actually get higher populations so all people can enjoy them a revenue source and a renewable resource.

Can't think of a better way of doing it.
Chloe said she would lose to the Salt Water Crocodile.

I might have understood you. :laugh:

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:41 PM
I have a profound respect for the local wildlife here. When I go for a hike of any length I'm well prepared, i have a backpack with necessary supplies, I know what lives in that ecosystem, and I don't let my guard down especially when hiking alone. The difference is that I don't let the respect turn into fear nor do I walk on egg shells assuming death is around the corner. I take necessary precautions and then I take my chances. If one day something happens then I'll know for a fact I was as prepared as could be but the worst still happened. Statistically I have pretty much nothing to fear, but to assume I don't take wilderness seriously is just flat wrong.

This couple was in shock they got attacked. They were very well prepared. She rather than reel in shock, picked up a 4" wide log and slammed the lion hard. It did not care. It refused to release her husband's face. You don't stand a chance vs a mountain lion. It kills women much larger than you are.

As an avid hiker, you do take wilderness serious. But clearly not Mountain Lions.

Saying to one, here kitty, here kitty won't work.

Saying you take precautions sounds good and all that. But alone, even with several hikers, they do attack and kill.

MisterVeritis
06-19-2015, 01:44 PM
A coyote that is un afraid is likely rabid. Be careful!

They are very afraid and usually put a lot of distance between you and them if the see or smell you.
This is an established neighborhood deep in the woods. Most of the lots run from 1.5 to 7 acres. We have lots of wildlife. There have even been rumors of brown bears. More than a dozen of our uphill neighbors have seen one and sometimes three coyotes. The one I saw was just above our top retaining wall. It walked across the open area above the retaining wall. It looked my way once and then continued walking. It was probably heading toward the creek on my neighbor's property. Also we have lots of squirrels and chipmunks nearby.

Several neighbors have cats that disappeared. I am pretty sure I know where they ended up.

This is the closest picture to what I saw. (http://www.nationalcoyotecallingchampionship.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/2012-08-01-2012-National-Coyote-Calling-Championship.jpg)

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:44 PM
A coyote that is un afraid is likely rabid. Be careful!

They are very afraid and usually put a lot of distance between you and them if the see or smell you.

Would you believe there are Coyotes in the City of San Francisco?

I did not see the Red Foxes but here in my city a guy I knew at the time said he saw them as he was taking his dogs walking. They did not bother him.

Common Sense
06-19-2015, 01:45 PM
10 people have been killed by mountain lions in the last 20 years.

More Americans are killed by appliances in their homes.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:47 PM
This is an established neighborhood deep in the woods. Most of the lots run from 1.5 to 7 acres. We have lots of wildlife. There have even been rumors of brown bears. More than a dozen of our uphill neighbors have seen one and sometimes three coyotes. The one I saw was just above our top retaining wall. It walked across the open area above the retaining wall. It looked my way once and then continued walking. It was probably heading toward the creek on my neighbor's property. Also we have lots of squirrels and chipmunks nearby.

Several neighbors have cats that disappeared. I am pretty sure I know where they ended up.

This is the closest picture to what I saw. (http://www.nationalcoyotecallingchampionship.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/2012-08-01-2012-National-Coyote-Calling-Championship.jpg)

We have coyotes everywhere... They may get within 50 yards or so of you but they know they aren't in danger. Every blue moon we have a coyote that will go after a pet or kid and the DOW will come in and remove the pack.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:47 PM
This couple was in shock they got attacked. They were very well prepared. She rather than reel in shock, picked up a 4" wide log and slammed the lion hard. It did not care. It refused to release her husband's face. You don't stand a chance vs a mountain lion. It kills women much larger than you are.

As an avid hiker, you do take wilderness serious. But clearly not Mountain Lions.

Saying to one, here kitty, here kitty won't work.

Saying you take precautions sounds good and all that. But alone, even with several hikers, they do attack and kill.
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) listen carefully please. I respect mountain lions and completely understand and acknowledge their physical power and abilities. I routinely hike in areas that have pretty much all of the major predators living in it. Short of never leaving the house and entering the wilderness there will always be a remote chance of a physical encounter with wildlife no matter how prepared you are. Understanding that fact and respecting that fact but not fearing that fact is NOT being irresponsible or saying "here kitty kitty". I've had encounters in the wild and know how to react, but I know full well that if a bear or cougar decided to attack that id have to fight for my life and probably would still lose. I'm happy to take that chance to be able to experience the natural world.

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 01:51 PM
10 people have been killed by mountain lions in the last 20 years.

More Americans are killed by appliances in their homes.

Not counting refrigerators

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:52 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) listen carefully please. I respect mountain lions and completely understand and acknowledge their physical power and abilities. I routinely hike in areas that have pretty much all of the major predators living in it. Short of never leaving the house and entering the wilderness there will always be a remote chance of a physical encounter with wildlife no matter how prepared you are. Understanding that fact and respecting that fact but not fearing that fact is NOT being irresponsible or saying "here kitty kitty". I've had encounters in the wild and know how to react, but I know full well that if a bear or cougar decided to attack that id have to fight for my life and probably would still lose. I'm happy to take that chance to be able to experience the natural world.

I listened very close.

Yup, it seems you would lose.

Captain Obvious
06-19-2015, 01:53 PM
Will you please stop discussing members?

My junk is really not that ugly actually

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:54 PM
10 people have been killed by mountain lions in the last 20 years.

More Americans are killed by appliances in their homes.

The trend in recent years is more attacks vs fewer attacks. Good luck with your appliances.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 01:54 PM
I listened very close.

Yup, it seems you would lose.

Jesus Bob isn't it shuffle board time or something? Anything?

Chloe
06-19-2015, 01:56 PM
I listened very close.

Yup, it seems you would lose.

You're exhausting

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:58 PM
Jesus Bob isn't it shuffle board time or something? Anything?

There is a cure for your problem.

Bob
06-19-2015, 01:59 PM
You're exhausting

I told you I listened. I really really did. Pinky promise. I heard you.

You exhaust me too but you are just too much fun.

Ethereal
06-19-2015, 02:02 PM
You're exhausting

You're wasting your time.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 02:03 PM
There is a cure for your problem.

The 'ignore' button?

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:07 PM
The 'ignore' button?

Yes.

And believe me, you won't be missed.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 02:08 PM
Yes.

And believe me, you won't be missed.

Well I have a policy of not ignoring anyone...besides...how did you put it..."you're just too much fun"...

Although when you said it, it had a creepy undertone to it...

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:09 PM
You're wasting your time.

But I support you Ethereal

Even when you exhaust.
Chloe is cute when she is exhausted. :laugh:

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 02:10 PM
Not counting refrigerators

I had to put a rabid dishwasher down last month. Thing nearly ate my favorite coffee mug. Its a jungle in here!

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 02:10 PM
But I support you @Ethereal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=870)

Even when you exhaust.
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) is cute when she is exhausted. :laugh:

So fucking creepy....

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 02:12 PM
Chloe....bet ya didn't know you needed your bear spray to post on a forum.....

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:12 PM
Well I have a policy of not ignoring anyone...besides...how did you put it..."you're just too much fun"...

Although when you said it, it had a creepy undertone to it...

No, i said to you YOU won't be missed.

Clearly you have something creepy on your mind. I don't, but explain to us what you are thinking of?

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 02:13 PM
No, i said to you YOU won't be missed.

Clearly you have something creepy on your mind. I don't, but explain to us what you are thinking of?

Bob I think everyone here knows what they are thinking...

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:15 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)....bet ya didn't know you needed your bear spray to post on a forum.....

She is so entertaining. I get a kick out of Chloe.

She is utterly delightful. She even gives me posting ideas.

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:16 PM
Bob I think everyone here knows what they are thinking...

Well, you can't claim you had no chance to explain.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 02:16 PM
She is so entertaining. I get a kick out of @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565).

She is utterly delightful. She even gives me posting ideas.

OK @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565). Time for you to completely stop posting...

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:18 PM
So fucking creepy....

It never is unless you say those words.

You brought that to this forum.

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 02:19 PM
It never is unless you say those words.

You brought that to this forum.

You kinda sound like Obama Bob.

You didn't "brought" that! Someone else "brought" that!

Chloe
06-19-2015, 02:20 PM
Ugh. Where is a mountain lion when you really need one...

PolWatch
06-19-2015, 02:22 PM
http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=JN.AMbaAiwgLOzs6ygJqYlZcQ&w=156&h=100&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2

Common Sense
06-19-2015, 02:23 PM
Ugh. Where is a mountain lion when you really need one...

Now that should be post of the day...

Bob
06-19-2015, 02:24 PM
I hike, camp, and rock climb in environments that have bears, wolves, cougars, lynx, bobcats, coyotes, foxes and rattlesnakes. I'm still breathing.

I did not realize you are a rock climber. Tip of the hat to you. Fearless I say.

Adelaide
06-19-2015, 02:36 PM
Stick to discussing the topic, not fellow members.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 02:45 PM
And of course, if it weren't for humans, the habitat would be in a lot better shape. The predators and prey would balance each other out as they always have.

Actually if it were not for humans we would have this

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/575290.jpg
(http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/575290.jpg)
There is not food to get them through the winter. so they die. until mother natures catches it on fire and it starts over again.

Chloe
06-19-2015, 02:48 PM
Actually if it were not for humans we would have this

http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/575290.jpg
(http://www.summitpost.org/images/original/575290.jpg)
There is not food to get them through the winter. so they die. until mother natures catches it on fire and it starts over again.

One of humanity's biggest flaws is thinking it can control nature. It makes you wonder how the earth managed before we became so self important :)

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 02:56 PM
This couple was in shock they got attacked. They were very well prepared. She rather than reel in shock, picked up a 4" wide log and slammed the lion hard. It did not care. It refused to release her husband's face. You don't stand a chance vs a mountain lion. It kills women much larger than you are.

As an avid hiker, you do take wilderness serious. But clearly not Mountain Lions.

Saying to one, here kitty, here kitty won't work.

Saying you take precautions sounds good and all that. But alone, even with several hikers, they do attack and kill.

It is not the size of the dog in the fight but he size of the fight in the dog If you will. She is prepared, She will be fine.

The biggest thing that people do wrong with Lions is run, and they turn themselves into a cat toy.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 02:58 PM
Would you believe there are Coyotes in the City of San Francisco?

I did not see the Red Foxes but here in my city a guy I knew at the time said he saw them as he was taking his dogs walking. They did not bother him.

Yes they are one of the most adaptive animals on the planet. Cities are great they are full of rats, Mice Rabbits and Cats.

Coyote's thrive.

Chris
06-19-2015, 02:58 PM
One of humanity's biggest flaws is thinking it can control nature. It makes you wonder how the earth managed before we became so self important :)

Agree. Nature is too complex and dynamic and barely understood to even imagine trying to control it...without unforeseen consequences. But then can we save species from going extinct? Can we manage ourselves via the state?

Private Pickle
06-19-2015, 03:00 PM
One of humanity's biggest flaws is thinking it can control nature. It makes you wonder how the earth managed before we became so self important :)

I think most advanced nations have given up that fallacy and have replaced it with more of a management approach. It's working.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 03:01 PM
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)....bet ya didn't know you needed your bear spray to post on a forum.....

Of course she did, that is why she already has it! :)

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 03:02 PM
Now that should be post of the day...

I second the motion.

zelmo1234
06-19-2015, 03:08 PM
One of humanity's biggest flaws is thinking it can control nature. It makes you wonder how the earth managed before we became so self important :)

No I quite agree Nature takes care of this very well, all of the leaves and dried branches fill the forest floor and they dry would very will in the windy conditions of late summer. Those wonderful fall storms that are filled with lighting create the spark and the burn to the ground. Then the next year all of those seed that were place there through bird droppings sprout and you have great habitat for animals.

Or we could selectively harvest and use the wood to build things and heat homes. The forest stays in a new growth situation and never gets the dry base that causes the fires.

California likes to use the former it seems to be working out well for them. But for some reason once the fire starts??? The Humans insist on spending millions to put it out, instead of letting nature take it's course. Why do you think that is?

Bob
06-19-2015, 03:45 PM
It is not the size of the dog in the fight but he size of the fight in the dog If you will. She is prepared, She will be fine.

The biggest thing that people do wrong with Lions is run, and they turn themselves into a cat toy.

Some victims are caught entirely by surprise, are walking not running and yet even in pairs, get attacked.
Chloe, let's all pray for.

Bob
06-19-2015, 03:49 PM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Chloe http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1142133#post1142133)
One of humanity's biggest flaws is thinking it can control nature. It makes you wonder how the earth managed before we became so self important


Agree. Nature is too complex and dynamic and barely understood to even imagine trying to control it...without unforeseen consequences. But then can we save species from going extinct? Can we manage ourselves via the state?

And to sum it up, this is the fallacy of climate. Man simply is not able to control climate.

Yet Democrats claim they can. Utter and total nonsense.

Bob
06-19-2015, 04:22 PM
Yes they are one of the most adaptive animals on the planet. Cities are great they are full of rats, Mice Rabbits and Cats.

Coyote's thrive.

The Coyotes in San Francisco are very furtive. They were there and yet only thought to be passing through. I forget what part they live in. Time for a link.

It seems that every nook and cranny of San Francisco's parks and greenbelts has a coyote or two hiding in it.
As winter takes hold, I would estimate more than 100 coyotes in San Francisco, based on crops of pups verified in the past year and firsthand field-scout sightings (often with photos), along with a field study and photography by David Cruz (http://www.sfgate.com/search/?action=search&channel=outdoors&inlineLink=1&searchindex=gsa&query=%22David+Cruz%22) of Natures Lantern.
A little more than a year ago, San Francisco officials estimated there were only about 15 coyotes in the city.
Since then, rangers for the San Francisco Recreation and Park Department also have seen the coyotes, so often that "there's no way we can estimate how many there are," saidRaymond Falzon (http://www.sfgate.com/search/?action=search&channel=outdoors&inlineLink=1&searchindex=gsa&query=%22Raymond+Falzon%22), a dispatcher for the rangers who often gets the reports. A hotline for coyote sightings has been established at (415) 554-9400.

http://www.sfgate.com/outdoors/article/Coyotes-seemingly-thrive-in-San-Francisco-5045034.php

The Sage of Main Street
06-20-2015, 10:42 AM
Dept of Natural Resources.

Thanks for proving that RWNJ's don't know $#@! about anything environmental/natural. We need a Department of Human Resources instead. The DNR is an anti-human, anti-talent clique of eco-eunuchs. It is a Right Wing jobkiller designed to make the unemployed desperate enough to accept low wages.

Chloe
06-20-2015, 10:54 AM
Agree. Nature is too complex and dynamic and barely understood to even imagine trying to control it...without unforeseen consequences. But then can we save species from going extinct? Can we manage ourselves via the state?

We can save species from going extinct but to do that we also need to change the way we interact with the planet. The Earth does not belong to humans and humans alone. We all share the planet and are interdependent. The more we destroy, the more we threaten biodiversity, the more likely our species will be the one in true danger.

Bob
06-20-2015, 11:29 AM
We can save species from going extinct but to do that we also need to change the way we interact with the planet. The Earth does not belong to humans and humans alone. We all share the planet and are interdependent. The more we destroy, the more we threaten biodiversity, the more likely our species will be the one in true danger.

You have a philosophy but not a plan. A realistic plan.

Chris
06-20-2015, 11:33 AM
We can save species from going extinct but to do that we also need to change the way we interact with the planet. The Earth does not belong to humans and humans alone. We all share the planet and are interdependent. The more we destroy, the more we threaten biodiversity, the more likely our species will be the one in true danger.

Can we? If because we don't understand nature and our place in it well enough we drive some species to extinction, how do we suddenly know enough to reverse that?

I don't disagree with your aims. I just wonder are we smart and knowledgeable enough to change ourselves and do so in the right way? You can say I'm cynical but I have to wonder. Will what we do to save some speciaes not possibly make another go extinct? And, yes, perhaps ourselves.

Chloe
06-20-2015, 12:05 PM
You have a philosophy but not a plan. A realistic plan.

Im getting there. I have a lot of ideas that I am trying to compile, organize and hopefully one day try to promote and implement.

Chloe
06-20-2015, 12:10 PM
Can we? If because we don't understand nature and our place in it well enough we drive some species to extinction, how do we suddenly know enough to reverse that?

I don't disagree with your aims. I just wonder are we smart and knowledgeable enough to change ourselves and do so in the right way? You can say I'm cynical but I have to wonder. Will what we do to save some speciaes not possibly make another go extinct? And, yes, perhaps ourselves.

Its a question of motivation basically in my opinion. I think most people are smart enough to understand the importance and the necessity of environmental change and protection, however, getting people motivated enough to unite around a common goal is the hard part. Ultimately people will have no choice if they wait too long, but by then who knows what the environment will look like.

Peter1469
06-20-2015, 12:16 PM
We can save species from going extinct but to do that we also need to change the way we interact with the planet. The Earth does not belong to humans and humans alone. We all share the planet and are interdependent. The more we destroy, the more we threaten biodiversity, the more likely our species will be the one in true danger.

Earth first!



We can strip mine the other planets later. :shocked:

Bob
06-20-2015, 12:25 PM
Im getting there. I have a lot of ideas that I am trying to compile, organize and hopefully one day try to promote and implement.

Don't expect me to say a bad thing about this. It won't impact on me no matter what happens.

One of the past Real Estate board Presidents, Mike J. had a saying that is useful. BEAT

Be a Team

He used to say it all the time.

Mike is a good friend to Dennis Ekersley.

PattyHill
06-20-2015, 12:26 PM
Its a question of motivation basically in my opinion. I think most people are smart enough to understand the importance and the necessity of environmental change and protection, however, getting people motivated enough to unite around a common goal is the hard part. Ultimately people will have no choice if they wait too long, but by then who knows what the environment will look like.


But Chris does have a point that sometimes when we've done things in the past for the right motive, the consequences weren't what we expected. (Since I'm in California, I'm thinking in particular about the forest practices which used to keep fires from burning at all, when a healthy forest does need fire clearing it out now and then.)

But I think at this point we know enough to know getting rid of predators just means the prey increases to the point where they start dying, spreading disease, stuff like that. Replacing wolves, coyotes, mountain lions with humans who hunt won't work - humans don't hunt rats and mice or other varmints, for example.

And if an animal becomes unafraid of humans and starts raiding garbage regularly or breaking in to homes - that animal needs to be relocated, at the least, and might even need to be killed.

But of course there are stupid humans that do things like feed bears. Don't feed the wildlife. Let them figure it out. I heard of one person in our town who deliberately left their trash out so they could see a bear come by and eat it at night. Awful. (Full disclosure: when we first moved here, our trash wasn't secured enough; a bear came by one evening and had a feast. The next day, the trash was moved to a much more secure location - under the house - and bears haven't gotten to it yet although this week we had one rip screens off a couple of the vents that go under the house, we assume because it smelled the trash. That original bear came by for dessert the next night; beautiful animal, but seeing him 15 feet from the house was NOT what I wanted to see. Since everything was tucked away, he moved on.)

Bob
06-20-2015, 12:30 PM
Its a question of motivation basically in my opinion. I think most people are smart enough to understand the importance and the necessity of environmental change and protection, however, getting people motivated enough to unite around a common goal is the hard part. Ultimately people will have no choice if they wait too long, but by then who knows what the environment will look like.

Why don't you look at the entirety of this.

This is an old old topic for those of us past the age of 60. We recall how it used to be. I love what some environmentalists of the past did. They charted a new path and in the USA we follow it. We have no impact on countries like Brazil where the removal of trees moves at a frantic pace or even Indonesia that also suffers wholesale slaughter of the forests.

This country has long been super environmentally serious.

You may need to move to other countries where the damage is real.

Bob
06-20-2015, 12:39 PM
But Chris does have a point that sometimes when we've done things in the past for the right motive, the consequences weren't what we expected. (Since I'm in California, I'm thinking in particular about the forest practices which used to keep fires from burning at all, when a healthy forest does need fire clearing it out now and then.)

But I think at this point we know enough to know getting rid of predators just means the prey increases to the point where they start dying, spreading disease, stuff like that. Replacing wolves, coyotes, mountain lions with humans who hunt won't work - humans don't hunt rats and mice or other varmints, for example.

And if an animal becomes unafraid of humans and starts raiding garbage regularly or breaking in to homes - that animal needs to be relocated, at the least, and might even need to be killed.

But of course there are stupid humans that do things like feed bears. Don't feed the wildlife. Let them figure it out. I heard of one person in our town who deliberately left their trash out so they could see a bear come by and eat it at night. Awful. (Full disclosure: when we first moved here, our trash wasn't secured enough; a bear came by one evening and had a feast. The next day, the trash was moved to a much more secure location - under the house - and bears haven't gotten to it yet although this week we had one rip screens off a couple of the vents that go under the house, we assume because it smelled the trash. That original bear came by for dessert the next night; beautiful animal, but seeing him 15 feet from the house was NOT what I wanted to see. Since everything was tucked away, he moved on.)

Lightning is the number one culprit in the fires in California and other states.

Arson happens but not like Lightning happens.

I have seen forest personnel doing controlled burns. Hopefully they picked the best sites to burn trying to make it less of a fire danger.

They say politics is local. So are environmental concerns. The person next to Three Mile Island had one experience that those relying on dams do not have.

The toxic sites all over have too often been done by Government. Naturally when government creates a toxic site and walks away, they are harder to make liable. Treasure Island is a good example of a Government created toxic site.

Wild animals need to be left alone. When they intrude, it is possible to simply cart them to a wild area.

The parks in CA are very good at installing bear proof trash and at camp sites telling the campers to use the provided bear proof storage boxes. Cars get tore to pieces by bears. They can open car trunks and doors are no problem. They smell toothpaste and want to eat it. It is way more than food so the park advice must be accepted and held to.

Safe camping is fun. Inviting bears can lead to more than food eaten, it has at times led to campers being killed.

zelmo1234
06-20-2015, 02:12 PM
We need a Department of Human Resources instead. The DNR is an anti-human, anti-talent clique of eco-eunuchs. It is a Right Wing jobkiller designed to make the unemployed desperate enough to accept low wages.

That's nice but the Natural resources people are not Right Wing, they are Left wing.

The Sage of Main Street
06-21-2015, 02:08 PM
I don't see how the ranchers would lose money on account of the price going down when the extermination of predators caused an increased supply. They would make it up on volume and probably make more money. The consumers really want to eat meat more often; no way the ranchers would wind up having to give it away below cost.

southwest88
06-21-2015, 08:07 PM
But I bet that you still have not volunteered to go through a wintering area and see all the ones that starve and die from disease!

Here is a hint the smell is intense. So if they are going to die anyway. Why should we not use the meat, hide, and the sport to raise money to care for them?

I can see subsistence hunting - if fishing, hunting are your main or even only sources of protein. The notion of using fish/hunt licensing fees to raise money to care for the targeted animals - that's a tough sell. Yah, that's basically what we do with domestic meat animals - but no one claims a spiritual component to putting a .22-caliber through the brainpan of a pig or cow, either.

I could stretch the point if the antelope, bighorn, mountain lion, bear etc. had a reasonable chance of prevailing in the contest. But hunting from helicopters, with .30-06 with 10X scopes, IR detection gear, beaters, guide dogs, the equivalent of Sherpa guides - & worse of all, hunting staked-out or wing-clipped animals in a preserve (or call them what they are - audience-participation abattoirs). Well, it won't do.

I can see the spirit of the thing in Spanish bullfighting - if it's a fair fight. The matador has his skill & crew to help him tire the bull. But @ the end, the matador is vulnerable - it's his flesh in play as much as the bull's life. If hunts were organized on the same principle - as a matter of spirit as well as tracking/shooting skills - then I could muster more respect for the hunter's POV. The bow-hunters, TMK, have this kind of approach in the field. They're potentially @ considerable risk if they miss or merely wound the prey, especially carnivores.

@ some point soon, though, we'll have to decide whether other animals will continue to live on the Earth with us. We've been the dominant species for some time - since the Industrial Revolution? But our activities around the World are crowding out the other species. We may well decide to take tissue samples & DNA codes & etc. - in the hope of reviving species someday - when we have the energy, time, available habitat. What's unclear is whether we have the wisdom to recognize when we've overstepped the limits of the World's biosphere. What happens if we accidentally - or even deliberately - wipe out a key member of the biosphere?

Could we produce something as lowly as bees or similar pollinators, to keep our crops & fruits pollinating, @ a reasonable cost? Large true predators are going to the wall - they won't stoop to omnivore meals - largely because they can't - they don't have the gut nor dentition for it. Coyotes, feral dogs & cats - do better. & after all, they haven't always been domesticated.

southwest88
06-21-2015, 09:18 PM
Would you believe there are Coyotes in the City of San Francisco?

I did not see the Red Foxes but here in my city a guy I knew at the time said he saw them as he was taking his dogs walking. They did not bother him.

There are coyotes throughout N. America, including much of Canada & Mexico (& C. America) & Alaska. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

"Coyote

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#mw-head), search (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#p-search)
For other uses, see Coyote (disambiguation) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_(disambiguation)).


Coyote
Temporal range: 0.7–0 Ma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaannum)
PreЄ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian)

Є (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian)
O (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordovician)
S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian)
D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devonian)
C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous)
P (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian)
T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triassic)
J (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic)
K (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous)
Pg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleogene)
N (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neogene)





Middle Pleistocene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene) – Recent


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg/330px-2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg)


C. l. lestes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_latrans_lestes)


Conservation status (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status)



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Status_iucn3.1_LC.svg/330px-Status_iucn3.1_LC.svg.png
Least Concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_Concern) (IUCN 3.1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Red_List))[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-iucn-1)



Scientific classification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology))


Kingdom:
Animalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal)


Phylum:
Chordata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordate)


Class:
Mammalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal)


Infraclass:
Eutheria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutheria)


Order:
Carnivora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivora)


Family:
Canidae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae)


Genus:
Canis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis)


Species:
C. latrans


Binomial name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature)


Canis latrans
Say (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Say), 1823


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg/330px-Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg)


Modern range of Canis latrans




"The coyote (US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English) /kaɪˈoʊtiː/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) or /ˈkaɪ.oʊt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English) /kɔɪˈjoʊteɪ/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), or /kɔɪˈjoʊt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English);[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-2) Canis latrans) is a canid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid) native to North America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America). It is a smaller, more basal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_(phylogenetics)) animal than its close relative, the gray wolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_wolf),[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-nowak1978-3) being roughly the North American equivalent to the Old World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World) golden jackal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal), though it is larger and more predatory in nature.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-4) It is listed as "least concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_concern)" by the IUCN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN), on account of its wide distribution and abundance throughout North America, even southwards through Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) and Central America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America). It is a highly versatile species, whose range has expanded amidst human environmental modification.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-iucn-1) This expansion is ongoing, and it may one day reach South America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America), as shown by the animal's presence beyond the Panama Canal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal) in 2013.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-mendez2014-5) As of 2005[update] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coyote&action=edit), 19 subspecies are recognized.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-msw3-6)"

(My emphasis - details @ URL)

The difference between coyotes & mountain lions - coyotes are opportunistic & adaptable, & omnivores. & we've wiped out most of their competitors in the US. If we actually eliminate wolves, mountain lions, bears, etc. - it'll be mostly coyotes taking up the slack. Just as well, we don't want to be overrun with mice, rats, gophers, squirrels, snakes, lizards, rabbits, etc.

Bob
06-21-2015, 09:27 PM
There are coyotes throughout N. America, including much of Canada & Mexico (& C. America) & Alaska. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

"Coyote

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#mw-head), search (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#p-search)
For other uses, see Coyote (disambiguation) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_(disambiguation)).


Coyote
Temporal range: 0.7–0 Ma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaannum)
PreЄ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian)

Є (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian)
O (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordovician)
S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian)
D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devonian)
C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous)
P (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian)
T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triassic)
J (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic)
K (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous)
Pg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleogene)
N (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neogene)





Middle Pleistocene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene) – Recent


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg/330px-2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg)


C. l. lestes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_latrans_lestes)


Conservation status (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status)



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Status_iucn3.1_LC.svg/330px-Status_iucn3.1_LC.svg.png
Least Concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_Concern) (IUCN 3.1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Red_List))[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-iucn-1)



Scientific classification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology))


Kingdom:
Animalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal)


Phylum:
Chordata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordate)


Class:
Mammalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal)


Infraclass:
Eutheria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutheria)


Order:
Carnivora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivora)


Family:
Canidae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae)


Genus:
Canis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis)


Species:
C. latrans


Binomial name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature)


Canis latrans
Say (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Say), 1823


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg/330px-Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg)


Modern range of Canis latrans




"The coyote (US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English) /kaɪˈoʊtiː/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) or /ˈkaɪ.oʊt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English) /kɔɪˈjoʊteɪ/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), or /kɔɪˈjoʊt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English);[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-2) Canis latrans) is a canid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid) native to North America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America). It is a smaller, more basal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_(phylogenetics)) animal than its close relative, the gray wolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_wolf),[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-nowak1978-3) being roughly the North American equivalent to the Old World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World) golden jackal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal), though it is larger and more predatory in nature.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-4) It is listed as "least concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_concern)" by the IUCN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN), on account of its wide distribution and abundance throughout North America, even southwards through Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) and Central America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America). It is a highly versatile species, whose range has expanded amidst human environmental modification.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-iucn-1) This expansion is ongoing, and it may one day reach South America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America), as shown by the animal's presence beyond the Panama Canal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal) in 2013.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-mendez2014-5) As of 2005[update] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coyote&action=edit), 19 subspecies are recognized.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-msw3-6)"

(My emphasis - details @ URL)

The difference between coyotes & mountain lions - coyotes are opportunistic & adaptable, & omnivores. & we've wiped out most of their competitors in the US. If we actually eliminate wolves, mountain lions, bears, etc. - it'll be mostly coyotes taking up the slack. Just as well, we don't want to be overrun with mice, rats, gophers, squirrels, snakes, lizards, rabbits, etc.

Thanks. It was a few years back when I too did a study, however brief it was, and learned how they are all over this continent. Crafty too. I must have forgot they are in South America.

Years ago, maybe in the 1990's, some poster was posting about some Coyote that lived on her property. I wonder if it still is there?

zelmo1234
06-21-2015, 09:30 PM
I can see subsistence hunting - if fishing, hunting are your main or even only sources of protein. The notion of using fish/hunt licensing fees to raise money to care for the targeted animals - that's a tough sell. Yah, that's basically what we do with domestic meat animals - but no one claims a spiritual component to putting a .22-caliber through the brainpan of a pig or cow, either.

I could stretch the point if the antelope, bighorn, mountain lion, bear etc. had a reasonable chance of prevailing in the contest. But hunting from helicopters, with .30-06 with 10X scopes, IR detection gear, beaters, guide dogs, the equivalent of Sherpa guides - & worse of all, hunting staked-out or wing-clipped animals in a preserve (or call them what they are - audience-participation abattoirs). Well, it won't do.

I can see the spirit of the thing in Spanish bullfighting - if it's a fair fight. The matador has his skill & crew to help him tire the bull. But @ the end, the matador is vulnerable - it's his flesh in play as much as the bull's life. If hunts were organized on the same principle - as a matter of spirit as well as tracking/shooting skills - then I could muster more respect for the hunter's POV. The bow-hunters, TMK, have this kind of approach in the field. They're potentially @ considerable risk if they miss or merely wound the prey, especially carnivores.

@ some point soon, though, we'll have to decide whether other animals will continue to live on the Earth with us. We've been the dominant species for some time - since the Industrial Revolution? But our activities around the World are crowding out the other species. We may well decide to take tissue samples & DNA codes & etc. - in the hope of reviving species someday - when we have the energy, time, available habitat. What's unclear is whether we have the wisdom to recognize when we've overstepped the limits of the World's biosphere. What happens if we accidentally - or even deliberately - wipe out a key member of the biosphere?

Could we produce something as lowly as bees or similar pollinators, to keep our crops & fruits pollinating, @ a reasonable cost? Large true predators are going to the wall - they won't stoop to omnivore meals - largely because they can't - they don't have the gut nor dentition for it. Coyotes, feral dogs & cats - do better. & after all, they haven't always been domesticated.

Here is someone that hasn't got a Fucking Clue to what really goes on. So let us start with the education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman%E2%80%93Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_ Restoration_Act

http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/bright%20stars%20of%20the%20economy.pdf

Next the people hunting from helicopters are you friendly government agencies. And you listed every hack and poaching tactic in the book.

Hunting and Fishing take care of renewable recourses, and in the case of hunting, prevent over population of game animals,

They also take care of the poor.

http://www.nssf.org/huntersfeed/

2.8 million pounds of meat or about 11 million meals each year.

Now tell me how much have you anti hunters spent to protect wildlife, clean up the environment, and purchase and restore habitat for animals.

In other words the next time you are out enjoying state land or viewing wildlife, remember to thank you local hunters who gladly paid the bill.

southwest88
06-21-2015, 10:09 PM
Here is someone that hasn't got a $#@!ing Clue to what really goes on. So let us start with the education.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman–Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restorat ion_Act

http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/bright stars of the economy.pdf

Next the people hunting from helicopters are you friendly government agencies. And you listed every hack and poaching tactic in the book.

Hunting and Fishing take care of renewable recourses, and in the case of hunting, prevent over population of game animals,

They also take care of the poor.

http://www.nssf.org/huntersfeed/

2.8 million pounds of meat or about 11 million meals each year.

Now tell me how much have you anti hunters spent to protect wildlife, clean up the environment, and purchase and restore habitat for animals.

In other words the next time you are out enjoying state land or viewing wildlife, remember to thank you local hunters who gladly paid the bill.

Nah, barking up the wrong tree. every hack and poaching tactic - clearly untrue, I only mentioned the standouts from the top of my head.

I haven't hunted for food for a long time, I grant you. But I remember perfectly well how to dress out & field prep rabbit - handy for slicing up chicken, turkey, etc. I've seen deer & pigs gutted & field prepped; & butchered @ home - I figure I could manage, in a pinch.

I don't have to force the issue - whatever's ultimately the root cause, we have less snowpack, less water coming down off the mountains, we've nearly pumped old reliable aquifers dry in the corn & wheat belts (especially high plains). Wildlife is migrating north - looking to maintain the optimum temps & humidity they've grown accustomed to. The same goes for vegetation, to include trees. It simply isn't as noticeable as the faster retreat of animals.

Yah, the large carnivores are already @ the wall in the US, outside of national parks & related. The amphibians (because they transpire through their skin? More susceptible to environmental issues?) have been failing in the industrialized countries for some time now. Bees & bats are under pressure - & we really need the bees - & the bats, too - some pollination, but more pest (insect) control, for the latter.

& here in the SW & far West - lots of land is National Forest, Park, or military, or Native Peoples' land, as well as state parks, forest, resort. The big dams are mostly out here too, as well as extensive hydro-engineering. It's a good thing, I think - we need to preserve habitat & some sense of the grandeur of the real World. & electrical power is a good thing, generated by gravity & (mostly) natural processes.

zelmo1234
06-21-2015, 10:17 PM
You still did not back up your claims.

And of course you didn't even try to mention the fact that you had no clue of how much money the hunting and fishing community put into the environment each and every year.

And just so you know here in MI the big carnivores are moving south. which is kind of cool.

The Sage of Main Street
06-22-2015, 11:13 AM
There are coyotes throughout N. America, including much of Canada & Mexico (& C. America) & Alaska. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote

"Coyote

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#mw-head), search (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#p-search)
For other uses, see Coyote (disambiguation) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_(disambiguation)).


Coyote
Temporal range: 0.7–0 Ma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaannum)
PreЄ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precambrian)

Є (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian)
O (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordovician)
S (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silurian)
D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devonian)
C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carboniferous)
P (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian)
T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triassic)
J (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic)
K (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous)
Pg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleogene)
N (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neogene)





Middle Pleistocene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene) – Recent


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg/330px-2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009-Coyote-Yosemite.jpg)


C. l. lestes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_latrans_lestes)


Conservation status (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_status)



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Status_iucn3.1_LC.svg/330px-Status_iucn3.1_LC.svg.png
Least Concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_Concern) (IUCN 3.1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Red_List))[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-iucn-1)



Scientific classification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology))


Kingdom:
Animalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal)


Phylum:
Chordata (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chordate)


Class:
Mammalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal)


Infraclass:
Eutheria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutheria)


Order:
Carnivora (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivora)


Family:
Canidae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae)


Genus:
Canis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis)


Species:
C. latrans


Binomial name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature)


Canis latrans
Say (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Say), 1823


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg/330px-Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cypron-Range_Canis_latrans.svg)


Modern range of Canis latrans




"The coyote (US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_English) /kaɪˈoʊtiː/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English) or /ˈkaɪ.oʊt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English) /kɔɪˈjoʊteɪ/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English), or /kɔɪˈjoʊt/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English);[a] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-2) Canis latrans) is a canid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid) native to North America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America). It is a smaller, more basal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_(phylogenetics)) animal than its close relative, the gray wolf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_wolf),[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-nowak1978-3) being roughly the North American equivalent to the Old World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_World) golden jackal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal), though it is larger and more predatory in nature.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-4) It is listed as "least concern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Least_concern)" by the IUCN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN), on account of its wide distribution and abundance throughout North America, even southwards through Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) and Central America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_America). It is a highly versatile species, whose range has expanded amidst human environmental modification.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-iucn-1) This expansion is ongoing, and it may one day reach South America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America), as shown by the animal's presence beyond the Panama Canal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal) in 2013.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-mendez2014-5) As of 2005[update] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Coyote&action=edit), 19 subspecies are recognized.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote#cite_note-msw3-6)"

(My emphasis - details @ URL)

The difference between coyotes & mountain lions - coyotes are opportunistic & adaptable, & omnivores. & we've wiped out most of their competitors in the US. If we actually eliminate wolves, mountain lions, bears, etc. - it'll be mostly coyotes taking up the slack. Just as well, we don't want to be overrun with mice, rats, gophers, squirrels, snakes, lizards, rabbits, etc. Its Latin name, ​(canis) latrans, means "thief," the root of the Spanish ladron. PETA freaks are of the same ilk as those who think criminals are victims of society. Both are misfits who have a vindictive hatred of the human race. Their latest fad is to hate animals humans love, such as cats.

Chloe
06-23-2015, 11:03 AM
Its Latin name, ​(canis) latrans, means "thief," the root of the Spanish ladron. PETA freaks are of the same ilk as those who think criminals are victims of society. Both are misfits who have a vindictive hatred of the human race. Their latest fad is to hate animals humans love, such as cats.


11883