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View Full Version : They say the south will ri$e again



Lineman
07-11-2015, 12:42 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/us/conderate-flag-southern-economics/index.html

Building a poor and desperate pool of labor for the corporate plutocrasy.

Peter1469
07-11-2015, 01:52 PM
wut?

Green Arrow
07-11-2015, 03:55 PM
Are all of your threads lacking substance, Lineman?

midcan5
07-11-2015, 05:24 PM
Travel sometime the backroads of the South, and you will see abandoned building and businesses. Rt95 has lots of activity a few hundred feet from a lost world. At one time in my career when I managed people throughout the nation the southern people always earned less for similar work. Anti union attitudes still dominate their thought. And no industry happened there, the mills died and the work went overseas.

While a bit OT, I was recently reading a piece on 'Buffalo Nation.' Google it, interesting approach to a dying area of America.

"The Old South didn't just give the nation the Confederate flag, "Gone with the Wind" and mint juleps. Its leaders refined the practice of exploiting workers, busting unions and being stingy with investments in public services. Each tactic was designed to create a desperate and powerless workforce that could be exploited by Northern and overseas businesses, Lind and other historians say." from link above

http://www.okhorizon.com/shows/2008-show-archive/april-2008/show-0816/interview-with-frank-and-deborah-popper-buffalo-commons

Mister D
07-11-2015, 05:27 PM
Travel through upstate NY, PA, MI or anywhere in the Rust Belt and you'll see the same thing.

hanger4
07-11-2015, 05:54 PM
Travel through upstate NY, PA, MI or anywhere in the Rust Belt and you'll see the same thing.

Not to mention the cost of living tends to be less .

Peter1469
07-11-2015, 05:58 PM
Travel sometime the backroads of the South, and you will see abandoned building and businesses. Rt95 has lots of activity a few hundred feet from a lost world. At one time in my career when I managed people throughout the nation the southern people always earned less for similar work. Anti union attitudes still dominate their thought. And no industry happened there, the mills died and the work went overseas.

While a bit OT, I was recently reading a piece on 'Buffalo Nation.' Google it, interesting approach to a dying area of America.

"The Old South didn't just give the nation the Confederate flag, "Gone with the Wind" and mint juleps. Its leaders refined the practice of exploiting workers, busting unions and being stingy with investments in public services. Each tactic was designed to create a desperate and powerless workforce that could be exploited by Northern and overseas businesses, Lind and other historians say." from link above

http://www.okhorizon.com/shows/2008-show-archive/april-2008/show-0816/interview-with-frank-and-deborah-popper-buffalo-commons

I was hiking in the Ozarks and would would come across this "towns" with population 36, 24, etc.

Mister D
07-11-2015, 05:59 PM
Not to mention the cost of living tends to be less .

Yes, significantly less. NY is trying to revive their economy right now with corporate tax breaks.

gamewell45
07-11-2015, 06:15 PM
Travel sometime the backroads of the South, and you will see abandoned building and businesses. Rt95 has lots of activity a few hundred feet from a lost world. At one time in my career when I managed people throughout the nation the southern people always earned less for similar work. Anti union attitudes still dominate their thought. And no industry happened there, the mills died and the work went overseas.

While a bit OT, I was recently reading a piece on 'Buffalo Nation.' Google it, interesting approach to a dying area of America.

"The Old South didn't just give the nation the Confederate flag, "Gone with the Wind" and mint juleps. Its leaders refined the practice of exploiting workers, busting unions and being stingy with investments in public services. Each tactic was designed to create a desperate and powerless workforce that could be exploited by Northern and overseas businesses, Lind and other historians say." from link above

http://www.okhorizon.com/shows/2008-show-archive/april-2008/show-0816/interview-with-frank-and-deborah-popper-buffalo-commons

And unfortunately, they have succeeded. The right-to-work (aka right-to-starve) laws set the south back 60 years in time. While I hope those laws are eventually repealed, I think it won't happen in our lifetime.

PolWatch
07-11-2015, 07:21 PM
And unfortunately, they have succeeded. The right-to-work (aka right-to-starve) laws set the south back 60 years in time. While I hope those laws are eventually repealed, I think it won't happen in our lifetime.

We have several foreign auto manufacturing plants in Alabama now. It seems that it is now cheaper to build cars in Alabama than in Japan.....go figure.

hanger4
07-11-2015, 07:33 PM
We have several foreign auto manufacturing plants in Alabama now. It seems that it is now cheaper to build cars in Alabama than in Japan.....go figure.

Yeah, that 2.5 percent car tariff and the 25 percent truck tariff didn"t have anything to do with it.

PolWatch
07-11-2015, 07:44 PM
Yeah, that 2.5 percent car tariff and the 25 percent truck tariff didn"t have anything to do with it.

I suspect it has a lot to do with it. I just wonder why the same doesn't apply to those companies that leave this nation for cheap foreign labor. Maybe the foreign car manufacturers don't own their own senator....yet.

hanger4
07-11-2015, 07:56 PM
I suspect it has a lot to do with it. I just wonder why the same doesn't apply to those companies that leave this nation for cheap foreign labor. Maybe the foreign car manufacturers don't own their own senator....yet.

Because they are US companies.

PolWatch
07-11-2015, 08:00 PM
Because they are US companies.

They want the advantages of being a US company, but not the liability of being a foreign manufacturer. They have bought the best of both worlds. Which is what I mean when I say that beginning with NAFTA, the laws have been set up to screw the American worker and reward manufacturing to do so.

Lineman
07-11-2015, 08:34 PM
We have several foreign auto manufacturing plants in Alabama now. It seems that it is now cheaper to build cars in Alabama than in Japan.....go figure.
Yup, just like my link showed, a large labor pool of people willing to work for scraps.

PolWatch
07-11-2015, 08:40 PM
Yup, just like my link showed, a large labor pool of people willing to work for scraps.

They are paying very well....good benefits. There is no danger of anyone voting in a union in any of the foreign auto manufacturing factories in the south. The goal is to eliminate unions completely. When the unions are gone, the situation will be the same as it was 100 years ago. The wages & benefits will be whatever the owners want to pay.

gamewell45
07-11-2015, 08:54 PM
We have several foreign auto manufacturing plants in Alabama now. It seems that it is now cheaper to build cars in Alabama than in Japan.....go figure.

What most companies want these days is a disposable workforce with no rights in the workplace and down south they have it for the most part. Of course people have a right to work for less and most companies willingly go along with that. They tell the employees that unions are bad for America, that they cause economic destruction and even bad weather and most of them buy into that concept hook, line and sinker. They use examples of a union where there might have been some corruption (and yes, it's happened before), play it up that all unions are like this to their advantage, all the time without telling them about some corporations cheated their shareholders/employees, conducted illegal operations or were convicted of bribery (Enron, GE, Walmart, Johnson & Johnson and Pfizer come to mind). Below is a link for all non-belivers :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/02/foreign-corruption_n_3640085.html

Unions, on the other hand are at fault to a point for failing to better educate the public as to what we are really all about, our history and mission statement. They also need to make sure their house is squeaky clean as possible to improve their image with the public at large.

Either way the labor culture down south is currently anti-union in most area's and organized labor needs to work to change that.

Btw, I always try to buy union-made products in America first, then I'll buy American made non-union and then if not available, I'll consider foreign made products if I cannot do without the product. I'd rather keep Americans gainfully employed with a living wage, rights in the workplace and a basic labor agreement.

Tahuyaman
07-11-2015, 09:03 PM
Are all of your threads lacking substance, Lineman?

You're not serious, are you?

Green Arrow
07-11-2015, 09:04 PM
We have several foreign auto manufacturing plants in Alabama now. It seems that it is now cheaper to build cars in Alabama than in Japan.....go figure.

German Volkswagen is one of Chattanooga's biggest employers.

Lineman
07-12-2015, 04:48 PM
VW would be a UAW represented union workforce if not for criminal Corker lying to the workforce, coercing them to vote no to unionizing.

gamewell45
07-12-2015, 04:56 PM
VW would be a UAW represented union workforce if not for criminal Corker lying to the workforce, coercing them to vote no to unionizing.

I think its been over a year now, so the UAW can point out the lies from Corker and petition for a new election with the NLRB unless the employee's are in a state of denial. Then all bets are off. :)

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 04:57 PM
What most companies want these days is a disposable workforce with no rights in the workplace and down south they have it for the most part. Of course people have a right to work for less and most companies willingly go along with that. They tell the employees that unions are bad for America, that they cause economic destruction and even bad weather and most of them buy into that concept hook, line and sinker. They use examples of a union where there might have been some corruption (and yes, it's happened before), play it up that all unions are like this to their advantage, all the time without telling them about some corporations cheated their shareholders/employees, conducted illegal operations or were convicted of bribery (Enron, GE, Walmart, Johnson & Johnson and Pfizer come to mind). Below is a link for all non-belivers :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/02/foreign-corruption_n_3640085.html

Unions, on the other hand are at fault to a point for failing to better educate the public as to what we are really all about, our history and mission statement. They also need to make sure their house is squeaky clean as possible to improve their image with the public at large.

Either way the labor culture down south is currently anti-union in most area's and organized labor needs to work to change that.

Btw, I always try to buy union-made products in America first, then I'll buy American made non-union and then if not available, I'll consider foreign made products if I cannot do without the product. I'd rather keep Americans gainfully employed with a living wage, rights in the workplace and a basic labor agreement.

The open shop law means that all employees get the same pay as the union workers but they don't have to pay union dues. The non-union workers don't have the union benefits, insurance, pension, etc. By the time the non-union workers are ready to retire with nothing but social security, its too late for them to change their minds.

gamewell45
07-12-2015, 05:00 PM
The open shop law means that all employees get the same pay as the union workers but they don't have to pay union dues. The non-union workers don't have the union benefits, insurance, pension, etc. By the time the non-union workers are ready to retire with nothing but social security, its too late for them to change their minds.

Yes, this is especially true if the union supplies the benefits for it's membership; non-union workers (aka "freeloaders") usually find out too late in the game that they've missed out on a lot of what they could of had and as a result end up struggling in their senior years.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 05:01 PM
They want the advantages of being a US company, but not the liability of being a foreign manufacturer. They have bought the best of both worlds. Which is what I mean when I say that beginning with NAFTA, the laws have been set up to screw the American worker and reward manufacturing to do so.

They're screwing the American worker when the import cheap labor too.

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 05:05 PM
A friend of mine was trying to figure out how to pay for her son to go to trade school to become an electrician. I asked her why would she pay for it when he could join local union and receive the same training in the apprentice program for free. He completed his training by going to night classes and working as a electrician's helper in the day. They don't owe any education loans for the same training.....yeap. Unions are really rotten.

gamewell45
07-12-2015, 05:05 PM
NAFTA was Bill Clinton's folly. It was supposed to bring hi-tech jobs to America in exchange for low level manufacturing jobs being sent out of country, but it back-fired miserably on Clinton. For the record, the AFL-CIO vigorously opposed it's passage.

gamewell45
07-12-2015, 05:13 PM
A friend of mine was trying to figure out how to pay for her son to go to trade school to become an electrician. I asked her why would she pay for it when he could join local union and receive the same training in the apprentice program for free. He completed his training by going to night classes and working as a electrician's helper in the day. They don't owe any education loans for the same training.....yeap. Unions are really rotten.

My union has a free training program for its members; their mindset being keeping our members up to date on the latest technology so the employees are more valuable to the company.

We also have language in our labor contracts that the company will reimburse employees who attend an accredited college or university as long as the course of study is related to the business. Many employees have acquired their bachelors and/or masters degrees through the union/company. It's called a working partnership. :)

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 05:14 PM
The open shop law means that all employees get the same pay as the union workers but they don't have to pay union dues. The non-union workers don't have the union benefits, insurance, pension, etc. By the time the non-union workers are ready to retire with nothing but social security, its too late for them to change their minds.

Why shouldn't non-(D) union workers be able to prevent unions from laundering their dues through the DNC?

Perhaps if unions used their money to benefit its members instead of electing (D)s this would be less of an issue.

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 05:18 PM
Yes, this is especially true if the union supplies the benefits for it's membership; non-union workers (aka "freeloaders") usually find out too late in the game that they've missed out on a lot of what they could of had and as a result end up struggling in their senior years.

A lot of Union members struggle as well when their company can no longer service lavish pensions and hand them off to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC) (https://startpage.com/do/search) Ask the airline pilots how that worked out for them.

gamewell45
07-12-2015, 05:29 PM
Why shouldn't non-(D) union workers be able to prevent unions from laundering their dues through the DNC?

Perhaps if unions used their money to benefit its members instead of electing (D)s this would be less of an issue.

Peter I think the unions really have no choice; they are constantly under attack from the right wing faction; much like corporations donate monies to the DNC/RNC, unions likewise should have a right to help elect those who believe in organized labor being important to all Americans.

My union's constitution forbids members dues going for political purposes; instead they have a voluntary pac program where members donate monies for political purposes and have a say in how the monies are distributed. It's important to remember that not all unions use membership monies for political purposes.

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 05:41 PM
Why shouldn't non-(D) union workers be able to prevent unions from laundering their dues through the DNC?

Perhaps if unions used their money to benefit its members instead of electing (D)s this would be less of an issue.

Why would the non-union employees expect to say where the union dues are spent? Do the employees of Koch or Soros have a say in how money is spent? The unions donate to candidates that they believe are favorable to labor....wouldn't make a lot of sense if they donated to someone like Walker...would it?

I don't see where the dues are not being spent to benefit members in the case of my husband's union. They provide training, health insurance, life insurance, retirement pensions and other union supported benefits. Their union pension is funded (according to the last report) for the next 50 years....even if there were no future deposits.

Rat (non-union) contractors pay higher liability insurance and their contracts have higher liquidated damage clauses (their record for on-time completion is not the best). Contractors order workers by skills....if they want someone who has experience with pouring thousands of tons of cement, would they find them in the want ads, train them themselves and keep them on payroll for a once in a lifetime job? If they don't need first class employees, they call for different levels of apprentices....and pay according to the skill level. When the job is completed, they are laid off until the next job. Contractors don't have to keep people around waiting for the next job. The unions act as an employment agency for contractors.

I don't agree with the large donations made to political candidates by any group....it means the politician owes the donor for their support. However, I don't see why union donations are more corrupting than the donations made by large corporations.

whatukno
07-12-2015, 05:47 PM
I live in the South. and let me tell you this is one jacked up region of the United States. I haven't seen such a disparity between the haves and the have nots in my entire life.

When I first came down here I was a cook in a restaurant. That was my trade, and I applied it here with limited success. (minimum wage) Two months after I got here, hurricane Charley put my house in the peace river. I spent a year and a half in a FEMA trailer. (paranoid conspiracy theorists alert!) Then got a job painting, then got a divorce when my then wife found someone who made a helluva lot more than I did at the time. As I learned the hard way, every woman only want the most successful of men.

This hard lesson in tow, I applied for grants, and scholarships, and student loans and went to FSU to earn my masters in Political Science. And after completing the years of study, ended up on the streets homeless without a job because the 08 crash happened, I worked day labor or whatever I could get till I ran across a lawyer that needed my expertise. I went from literally begging for work on the streets, to earning a upper middle class income overnight.

And here in the south, it's pretty much the same, you either scrape to get by, or you make a decent living or are set for life wealthy. I really haven't met anyone "Middle Class" other than transplants who have union ties that help make sure they earn a "prevailing wage"

I volunteer at a homeless shelter on Sundays, and know a guy who works 7 days a week 8 hours or more a day at a motel, doing everything under the sun for the owner, and makes ten dollars a day, plus his room which is used as storage by the owner. And this under Florida law is NOT illegal.

In any state that isn't a right to work state, this guy could have at least a lawsuit. But here in Florida, his option is to only quit, be homeless, and try again.

This is how bad the red states are. This poor guy gets ten dollars a day. Plus a storage closet that has a bathroom in it, and according to the state of Florida, that is absolutely fine and dandy, no matter how many hours he works a day. His only ONLY option is to quit, and be out on the street.

Free market capitalism works I guess right my republican friends? Please tell this poor guy that he's a lazy good for nothing because he works his ass off all day long in the hot Florida sun, cleaning rooms, maintaining the property, getting woken up at all hours of the night to do it again. He's a lazy good for nothing sponge on society according to conservatives. And you all work against this poor guy every election.

Why does this poor sob do it? According to him, because if he is out on the streets trying to sleep, he will get arrested by the cops. Being homeless is illegal in Florida. Apparently the local salvation army here charges homeless people ten dollars a day just for a place to sleep. That's a Charity organization people that rakes in millions of dollars a year in YOUR donations, they charge the homeless of this community to have a place to safely sleep.

So, please conservatives, tell this guy your ideology is right, because Florida is telling him it's right too. They say that if you are homeless and hard working you are screwed. The only reason I escaped this mess was because I had good enough credit to get student loans and grants and assistance to get an education. the 08 crash screwed a lot of people's credit without their knowledge.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:58 PM
And unfortunately, they have succeeded. The right-to-work (aka right-to-starve) laws set the south back 60 years in time. While I hope those laws are eventually repealed, I think it won't happen in our lifetime.
LOL. I love your sense of humor.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:02 PM
I live in the South. and let me tell you this is one jacked up region of the United States. I haven't seen such a disparity between the haves and the have nots in my entire life.

When I first came down here I was a cook in a restaurant. That was my trade, and I applied it here with limited success. (minimum wage) Two months after I got here, hurricane Charley put my house in the peace river. I spent a year and a half in a FEMA trailer. (paranoid conspiracy theorists alert!) Then got a job painting, then got a divorce when my then wife found someone who made a helluva lot more than I did at the time. As I learned the hard way, every woman only want the most successful of men.

This hard lesson in tow, I applied for grants, and scholarships, and student loans and went to FSU to earn my masters in Political Science. And after completing the years of study, ended up on the streets homeless without a job because the 08 crash happened, I worked day labor or whatever I could get till I ran across a lawyer that needed my expertise. I went from literally begging for work on the streets, to earning a upper middle class income overnight.

And here in the south, it's pretty much the same, you either scrape to get by, or you make a decent living or are set for life wealthy. I really haven't met anyone "Middle Class" other than transplants who have union ties that help make sure they earn a "prevailing wage"

I volunteer at a homeless shelter on Sundays, and know a guy who works 7 days a week 8 hours or more a day at a motel, doing everything under the sun for the owner, and makes ten dollars a day, plus his room which is used as storage by the owner. And this under Florida law is NOT illegal.

In any state that isn't a right to work state, this guy could have at least a lawsuit. But here in Florida, his option is to only quit, be homeless, and try again.

This is how bad the red states are. This poor guy gets ten dollars a day. Plus a storage closet that has a bathroom in it, and according to the state of Florida, that is absolutely fine and dandy, no matter how many hours he works a day. His only ONLY option is to quit, and be out on the street.

Free market capitalism works I guess right my republican friends? Please tell this poor guy that he's a lazy good for nothing because he works his ass off all day long in the hot Florida sun, cleaning rooms, maintaining the property, getting woken up at all hours of the night to do it again. He's a lazy good for nothing sponge on society according to conservatives. And you all work against this poor guy every election.

Why does this poor sob do it? According to him, because if he is out on the streets trying to sleep, he will get arrested by the cops. Being homeless is illegal in Florida. Apparently the local salvation army here charges homeless people ten dollars a day just for a place to sleep. That's a Charity organization people that rakes in millions of dollars a year in YOUR donations, they charge the homeless of this community to have a place to safely sleep.

So, please conservatives, tell this guy your ideology is right, because Florida is telling him it's right too. They say that if you are homeless and hard working you are screwed. The only reason I escaped this mess was because I had good enough credit to get student loans and grants and assistance to get an education. the 08 crash screwed a lot of people's credit without their knowledge.
LOL. What an amazing sob story. Why did you get a masters degree? And in political science no less? Where you bored? If you want to earn more you will have to be worth more.

In the private sector we expect results.

gamewell45
07-12-2015, 06:02 PM
LOL. I love your sense of humor.

Hey, laughing is good for the soul! :)

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:03 PM
Hey, laughing is good for the soul! :)
Tru' dat! ( a little bit of ebonics thrown in).

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 06:31 PM
Peter I think the unions really have no choice; they are constantly under attack from the right wing faction; much like corporations donate monies to the DNC/RNC, unions likewise should have a right to help elect those who believe in organized labor being important to all Americans.

My union's constitution forbids members dues going for political purposes; instead they have a voluntary pac program where members donate monies for political purposes and have a say in how the monies are distributed. It's important to remember that not all unions use membership monies for political purposes.

That is a good idea.

I know not all unions are the same. I am referring to the famous DNC supporters.

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 06:37 PM
Non (D) = democrat union workers.

I am for individuals donating. I am not for any organizations donating.

Also with public unions it can be inherently corrupt- the union laundering money with the DNC and a (D) administration giving the federal employees perks once elected.


Why would the non-union employees expect to say where the union dues are spent? Do the employees of Koch or Soros have a say in how money is spent? The unions donate to candidates that they believe are favorable to labor....wouldn't make a lot of sense if they donated to someone like Walker...would it?

I don't see where the dues are not being spent to benefit members in the case of my husband's union. They provide training, health insurance, life insurance, retirement pensions and other union supported benefits. Their union pension is funded (according to the last report) for the next 50 years....even if there were no future deposits.

Rat (non-union) contractors pay higher liability insurance and their contracts have higher liquidated damage clauses (their record for on-time completion is not the best). Contractors order workers by skills....if they want someone who has experience with pouring thousands of tons of cement, would they find them in the want ads, train them themselves and keep them on payroll for a once in a lifetime job? If they don't need first class employees, they call for different levels of apprentices....and pay according to the skill level. When the job is completed, they are laid off until the next job. Contractors don't have to keep people around waiting for the next job. The unions act as an employment agency for contractors.

I don't agree with the large donations made to political candidates by any group....it means the politician owes the donor for their support. However, I don't see why union donations are more corrupting than the donations made by large corporations.

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 06:40 PM
Why do you keep bringing up free market capitalism? Where has it been practiced in the last 100 years?


I live in the South. and let me tell you this is one jacked up region of the United States. I haven't seen such a disparity between the haves and the have nots in my entire life.

When I first came down here I was a cook in a restaurant. That was my trade, and I applied it here with limited success. (minimum wage) Two months after I got here, hurricane Charley put my house in the peace river. I spent a year and a half in a FEMA trailer. (paranoid conspiracy theorists alert!) Then got a job painting, then got a divorce when my then wife found someone who made a helluva lot more than I did at the time. As I learned the hard way, every woman only want the most successful of men.

This hard lesson in tow, I applied for grants, and scholarships, and student loans and went to FSU to earn my masters in Political Science. And after completing the years of study, ended up on the streets homeless without a job because the 08 crash happened, I worked day labor or whatever I could get till I ran across a lawyer that needed my expertise. I went from literally begging for work on the streets, to earning a upper middle class income overnight.

And here in the south, it's pretty much the same, you either scrape to get by, or you make a decent living or are set for life wealthy. I really haven't met anyone "Middle Class" other than transplants who have union ties that help make sure they earn a "prevailing wage"

I volunteer at a homeless shelter on Sundays, and know a guy who works 7 days a week 8 hours or more a day at a motel, doing everything under the sun for the owner, and makes ten dollars a day, plus his room which is used as storage by the owner. And this under Florida law is NOT illegal.

In any state that isn't a right to work state, this guy could have at least a lawsuit. But here in Florida, his option is to only quit, be homeless, and try again.

This is how bad the red states are. This poor guy gets ten dollars a day. Plus a storage closet that has a bathroom in it, and according to the state of Florida, that is absolutely fine and dandy, no matter how many hours he works a day. His only ONLY option is to quit, and be out on the street.

Free market capitalism works I guess right my republican friends? Please tell this poor guy that he's a lazy good for nothing because he works his ass off all day long in the hot Florida sun, cleaning rooms, maintaining the property, getting woken up at all hours of the night to do it again. He's a lazy good for nothing sponge on society according to conservatives. And you all work against this poor guy every election.

Why does this poor sob do it? According to him, because if he is out on the streets trying to sleep, he will get arrested by the cops. Being homeless is illegal in Florida. Apparently the local salvation army here charges homeless people ten dollars a day just for a place to sleep. That's a Charity organization people that rakes in millions of dollars a year in YOUR donations, they charge the homeless of this community to have a place to safely sleep.

So, please conservatives, tell this guy your ideology is right, because Florida is telling him it's right too. They say that if you are homeless and hard working you are screwed. The only reason I escaped this mess was because I had good enough credit to get student loans and grants and assistance to get an education. the 08 crash screwed a lot of people's credit without their knowledge.

Ivan88
07-13-2015, 10:41 AM
Japanese proverb that may apply to a South that rises again:

When nail raise up, it get hammered back down.

Captain Obvious
07-13-2015, 10:52 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s6liK_3UFo