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TrueBlue
07-11-2015, 10:25 PM
Pope: Poor are sacrificed on 'the altar of money'
By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/living/pope-notes-prison/index.html

"Saturday's speech was neither as long nor as scathing as the sharp denunciation of modern capitalism (http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/07/world/pope-mass-ecuador-quito/index.html) the Pope delivered Thursday in Bolivia, in which he called the relentless pursuit of profits the "dung of the devil." Still, it had its share of rhetorical fire."


"One more interesting note from Saturday's speech: Among the attendees was a gay rights activist who is also an atheist. It was a bold move to invite Simon Cazal, as CNN's Shasta Darlington reports (http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/11/world/lgbt-paraguay-pope-francis/index.html), for besides being an extremely Catholic country, Paraguay is also socially conservative. You can see Shasta's report in the video below."


=====================================

The Pope really tells it like it is! He holds nothing back and obviously wants for much of the prejudices of the Roman Catholic Church to subside and take a different turn in order for the Church to be more inclusive rather than to remain intolerant of certain people. That is good and we should all wish him well. Many thanks to CNN for this report.

GrassrootsConservative
07-11-2015, 10:31 PM
Fuck him and everybody else that hates capitalism. Why are you using the pope as a source? He's a religious nut, and in relevance to this issue, has more money than most. Once he stops driving around with his escort service and all the rest maybe we can talk about possibly taking him seriously.

/Edit: Oh and he doesn't even produce anything except craziness, unlike other people with money. It's all profit because there is no overhead. Him and his god can both eat my hairy nuts.

Private Pickle
07-11-2015, 10:31 PM
Pope: Poor are sacrificed on 'the altar of money'
By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/living/pope-notes-prison/index.html




=====================================

The Pope really tells it like it is! He holds nothing back and obviously wants for much of the prejudices of the Roman Catholic Church to subside and take a different turn in order for the Church to be more inclusive rather than to remain intolerant of certain people. That is good and we should all wish him well. Many thanks to CNN for this report.

He left out the part that the poor are basically the only ones going to heaven.

GrassrootsConservative
07-11-2015, 10:32 PM
He left out the part that the poor are basically the only ones going to heaven.

Looks like he's going to hell then, in they eyes of anyone that believes such dreck.

Private Pickle
07-11-2015, 10:55 PM
Looks like he's going to hell then, in they eyes of anyone that believes such dreck.

Nah. He's "chosen by God".

TrueBlue
07-11-2015, 10:56 PM
He left out the part that the poor are basically the only ones going to heaven.
Yes, you are absolutely right and that is quite true according to Jesus Christ's words in the Holy Bible!


"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." -- MATTHEW 19:24 KJV

Private Pickle
07-11-2015, 11:04 PM
Yes, you are absolutely right and that is quite true according to Jesus Christ's words in the Holy Bible!


"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." -- MATTHEW 19:24 KJV




So the Pope wants people to go to hell. Got it.

GrassrootsConservative
07-11-2015, 11:06 PM
Yes, you are absolutely right and that is quite true according to Jesus Christ's words in the Holy Bible!


"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." -- MATTHEW 19:24 KJV





I didn't think the bible was a reliable source, but I guess if you're partisan enough...

Peter1469
07-11-2015, 11:06 PM
I think that passage means that you can't take your money with you so you won't have it with you in the afterlife.

Private Pickle
07-11-2015, 11:13 PM
I think that passage means that you can't take your money with you so you won't have it with you in the afterlife.

Fitting the camel through the eye of a needle?

Peter1469
07-11-2015, 11:15 PM
Fitting the camel through the eye of a needle?

Look up the word parable.

Private Pickle
07-11-2015, 11:24 PM
Look up the word parable.

Awe. And here you think the religious don't think in literal terms. Cute.

Peter1469
07-11-2015, 11:27 PM
Awe. And here you think the religious don't think in literal terms. Cute.

Many don't. I would say most don't.

Private Pickle
07-11-2015, 11:34 PM
Many don't. I would say most don't.

Yeah but are they the ones that actually matter?

Green Arrow
07-11-2015, 11:50 PM
He's right. The Bible certainly isn't anti-rich as many misinterpret it to be, but it is certainly very much pro-poor.

GrassrootsConservative
07-11-2015, 11:55 PM
He's right. The Bible certainly isn't anti-rich as many misinterpret it to be, but it is certainly very much pro-poor.

Yet nobody asks for more donations than religious institutions and leaders. Nobody gets a tax-free ride like they do even though they don't actually produce anything. For being pro-poor religious freaks certainly are quite interested in not being poor.

whatukno
07-12-2015, 12:54 AM
Yes, you are absolutely right and that is quite true according to Jesus Christ's words in the Holy Bible!


"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." -- MATTHEW 19:24 KJV





Billionares around the world have spent a lot of money funding research into passing a camel through the eye of a needle, including but not limited to, very very small camels, and very large needles, and in an extreme attempt, liquefying a camel, and spraying it through a needle. (the results weren't impressive, but gooey none the less.)

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 01:01 AM
Pope: Poor are sacrificed on 'the altar of money'
By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/living/pope-notes-prison/index.html




=====================================

The Pope really tells it like it is! He holds nothing back and obviously wants for much of the prejudices of the Roman Catholic Church to subside and take a different turn in order for the Church to be more inclusive rather than to remain intolerant of certain people. That is good and we should all wish him well. Many thanks to CNN for this report.

So are you with him on abortion and gay marriage too?

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 01:05 AM
Fitting the camel through the eye of a needle?

This might help with the conversation!

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRG30OBNFf8E-aBJJppi6XLCk14qGLGp3PkTPOtDaZb8OQT2wZA (http://www.best-travel-deals-tips.com/jerusalem-eye-of-the-needle-gate.html)

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 01:14 AM
So lets discuss the poor in the United States?

Are they homeless, other than by choice?

Are they starving in the streets?

Do they lack educations and clean water?

Do they have access to modern utilities?

Capitalism has produced a country that the poor (people on welfare) are among the wealthiest people in the world.

Now what we have is a system where the politicians have changed the system that was to be a hand up, and used that system and the rules they apply to it, to enslave the people and make it very hard for them to get off this system. Progressive politicians have decimated the educations system and we are turning out idiots that have little to no chance of breaking the cycle of poverty.

WE have political leaders that refuse to stop the illegal entry into this country, which reduces the wages for the un skilled worker.

Now this is not a democrat or republican issue, both sides support these issues and things that are feel good, like the raising of the minimum wage, only work against the poor and middle class.

Again we can't fix the problem until we face what reality really is.

The best example we have or true capitalism in the USA is what is happening in N Dakota and it is solving every issue that our government has been failing at.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 01:41 AM
Yet nobody asks for more donations than religious institutions and leaders. Nobody gets a tax-free ride like they do even though they don't actually produce anything. For being pro-poor religious freaks certainly are quite interested in not being poor.

Yeah...what are those donations for?

Charity.

Also, you're wrong. Religious organizations aren't the only organizations that basically get off scott-free on taxes. Charities also don't have to pay taxes. For the exact same reasons religious organizations don't have to pay taxes.

Here's a tip...religious people still pay taxes. Aren't you one of those that thinks corporations shouldn't have to pay taxes? But churches should? How does that make any sense?

Mr. Me
07-12-2015, 01:41 AM
That's funny, this guy says all the right things about everybody else but ignores the corruptions within his own institution. Until you clear that up, your opinion is invalid on anything else. He seems like a nice guy but a politician is a politician no matter what his uniform looks like.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 01:50 AM
So lets discuss the poor in the United States?

Yes, let's. I hope you don't mind me answering your questions, seeing as I'm probably one of few people on this forum (as well as Hal Jordan) that fully understands this issue, having been poor my entire life and homeless for some of it.


Are they homeless, other than by choice?

Nobody chooses to be homeless, but yeah, plenty of them are.


Are they starving in the streets?

Some are, yeah. Not many though, America is pretty good about at least providing food for those less fortunate.


Do they lack educations and clean water?

Some of them do. Considering plenty of conservatives look down on students facing crushing debt from school loans, education beyond high school is largely out of reach for pretty much all poor Americans. Unless, of course, they make themselves even poorer by going into debt just to afford further education.


Do they have access to modern utilities?

Many do. Many do not.


Capitalism has produced a country that the poor (people on welfare) are among the wealthiest people in the world.

That's actually blatant bullshit. They are only "rich" in comparison to the poor in, say, India, but they aren't poor in India. They are poor in America. And being poor in America is largely the equivalent of being poor in India. Comparing the two is ridiculous. The only reason the comparison even exists is so the well-off can shrug and say, "Well, the poor could be worse off."


Now what we have is a system where the politicians have changed the system that was to be a hand up, and used that system and the rules they apply to it, to enslave the people and make it very hard for them to get off this system. Progressive politicians have decimated the educations system and we are turning out idiots that have little to no chance of breaking the cycle of poverty.

That would be a good point if America was ever a system in which the poor were doing well. It never has been. In fact, in America prior to government regulation, the poor were objectively worse off than they are today.


WE have political leaders that refuse to stop the illegal entry into this country, which reduces the wages for the un skilled worker.

We also have political leaders that don't have the temerity to show the strength that our past political leaders had in not bowing down to people with lots of money in order to crush those with little money.


Now this is not a democrat or republican issue, both sides support these issues and things that are feel good, like the raising of the minimum wage, only work against the poor and middle class.

Which can't be objectively demonstrated except through "maybes."


Again we can't fix the problem until we face what reality really is.

Agreed. And reality is that giving big corporations and the uber wealthy everything they want is not going to help poor Americans.


The best example we have or true capitalism in the USA is what is happening in N Dakota and it is solving every issue that our government has been failing at.

"True capitalism" is a lie, because "true capitalism" apparently means (according to self-styled defenders of "true capitalism, a la conservatives) giving the uber wealthy everything they want and then watching with rapt attention as that gloriousness miraculously turns the lives of the poor into Nirvana.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 01:51 AM
That's funny, this guy says all the right things about everybody else but ignores the corruptions within his own institution. Until you clear that up, your opinion is invalid on anything else. He seems like a nice guy but a politician is a politician no matter what his uniform looks like.

What corruption? The priests raping little boys?

Yeah, Pope Francis has been addressing that. Or did you not hear? I can't imagine any source you follow would have any inherent bias.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 02:09 AM
Yes, let's. I hope you don't mind me answering your questions, seeing as I'm probably one of few people on this forum (as well as @Hal Jordan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=994)) that fully understands this issue, having been poor my entire life and homeless for some of it.

Nobody chooses to be homeless, but yeah, plenty of them are.

Some are, yeah. Not many though, America is pretty good about at least providing food for those less fortunate.

Some of them do. Considering plenty of conservatives look down on students facing crushing debt from school loans, education beyond high school is largely out of reach for pretty much all poor Americans. Unless, of course, they make themselves even poorer by going into debt just to afford further education.

Many do. Many do not.

That's actually blatant bull$#@!. They are only "rich" in comparison to the poor in, say, India, but they aren't poor in India. They are poor in America. And being poor in America is largely the equivalent of being poor in India. Comparing the two is ridiculous. The only reason the comparison even exists is so the well-off can shrug and say, "Well, the poor could be worse off."



That would be a good point if America was ever a system in which the poor were doing well. It never has been. In fact, in America prior to government regulation, the poor were objectively worse off than they are today.

We also have political leaders that don't have the temerity to show the strength that our past political leaders had in not bowing down to people with lots of money in order to crush those with little money.

Which can't be objectively demonstrated except through "maybes."

Agreed. And reality is that giving big corporations and the uber wealthy everything they want is not going to help poor Americans.

"True capitalism" is a lie, because "true capitalism" apparently means (according to self-styled defenders of "true capitalism, a la conservatives) giving the uber wealthy everything they want and then watching with rapt attention as that gloriousness miraculously turns the lives of the poor into Nirvana.

So I don't know how to do the really cool thing where you can responds to each statement but I grew up with 2 sisters and my stay at home mom with a father that made 14K on average 16K was his best year. we did not have money coming our of our ears. And even though they qualified for assistance my parents never took it.

So here is what I mean by homeless, there are shelters and programs that make it impossible to not have a roof over your head, Mental illness does create issues and some like my parents are too proud. But that is by choice.

You mentioned Student loans. that debt was by choice, I am not a fan of it, but it was the Democrats that centralized this program within the government and not the republicans and interest has been rising every since.

We actually have a problem with kids on the welfare system being obese because they stay home and play video games. with all of the food pantries and welfare programs, there should never be person that is hungry.

Clean water is not an issue in this country? we are blesses

Modern utilities, I am sure that there are places in the rural hills that have issues but again this is a rare problem, Amish for example don't have access to modern utilities but that is by choice.

So tell me what policies, that we are giving major corporations, are actually making it so the poor are oppressed?

Or do you think that some of the government programs that are designed to help the poor actually trap them?

And yes I am comparing them to the people that live in India, China, Russia, the middle east, the Slavic nations.

The people on welfare in this country are at least upper middle class in those nations. That is reality, but it does not mean that we refuse to address the problems.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 02:10 AM
What corruption? The priests raping little boys?

Yeah, Pope Francis has been addressing that. Or did you not hear? I can't imagine any source you follow would have any inherent bias.

He has been doing a very good job with this issue. I think that he is a great Pope and I am not Catholic.

GrassrootsConservative
07-12-2015, 02:16 AM
Yeah...what are those donations for?

Charity.

Also, you're wrong. Religious organizations aren't the only organizations that basically get off scott-free on taxes. Charities also don't have to pay taxes. For the exact same reasons religious organizations don't have to pay taxes.

Here's a tip...religious people still pay taxes. Aren't you one of those that thinks corporations shouldn't have to pay taxes? But churches should? How does that make any sense?
Green Arrow nobody should have to pay taxes, but an institution that doesn't pay taxes doesn't get to talk jack shit about anybody that does, rich or poor.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 02:16 AM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) nobody should have to pay taxes, but an institution that doesn't pay taxes doesn't get to talk jack shit about anybody that does, rich or poor.

An institution can't talk. People talk, and people pay taxes.

William
07-12-2015, 02:27 AM
This might help with the conversation! https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRG30OBNFf8E-aBJJppi6XLCk14qGLGp3PkTPOtDaZb8OQT2wZA (http://www.best-travel-deals-tips.com/jerusalem-eye-of-the-needle-gate.html) LOL, not much. That gate was built in the 16th century. :laugh:

My mum (who has studied Ancient Greek) says the passage in the Bible is probably a mistranslation, cos the word 'camel' also means a rope made of hemp.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

http://www.hempage.de/en/resources-research/hemp-info/53-die-staerkste-naturfaser-der-welt.html

William
07-12-2015, 02:28 AM
He has been doing a very good job with this issue. I think that he is a great Pope and I am not Catholic.

I'm not a Catholic either, but I totally agree with you. :)

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 02:29 AM
So I don't know how to do the really cool thing where you can responds to each statement

All you have to do is put [ / quote ] without the spaces after each portion you want to make a separate quote. For each quote after the first one, you also have to put [ quote ] without the spaces in front of the portion you want to quote. For example:

[ quote ] This is how you do it. [ / quote ]

Respond here, and then move to the next sentence...

[ quote ] If you want to, anyway. [ / quote ]

Rinse and repeat. It is a cool feature, I love it. Makes stuff easier to read, IMO.


but I grew up with 2 sisters and my stay at home mom with a father that made 14K on average 16K was his best year. we did not have money coming our of our ears. And even though they qualified for assistance my parents never took it.

I respect that. The most assistance my father took was unemployment during a really bad year, and he was only on it for less than a month. That, and my mom gets disability (but that's recent and she actually has a disability). Other than that, my parents have never taken government assistance and what they have taken, they never abused.


So here is what I mean by homeless, there are shelters and programs that make it impossible to not have a roof over your head, Mental illness does create issues and some like my parents are too proud. But that is by choice.

It's not as impossible as you think. Shelters run out of room, and sometimes, the next closest shelter is too far to walk to and often close their doors before they even fill up all their spaces, leaving anyone that couldn't get there in time out in the elements.


You mentioned Student loans. that debt was by choice, I am not a fan of it, but it was the Democrats that centralized this program within the government and not the republicans and interest has been rising every since.

Sure, it's by choice, but what other choice can be made? Forget a college education and be forced to live as a burger flipper for $7.25 an hour? Less if we completely eliminate the minimum wage? You have to get an education to really get anywhere in life these days, and an education is so goddamn expensive you have to take out loans to afford it, and in our present economic climate you don't have much luck for a good while after you get out of college as far as making enough money to pay it off, and interest just keeps on rising.

So yeah, accepting the loan is a choice, but we don't give people any real alternative. We scream at them all their lives to be successful, and then we tell them they have to go into debt for the rest of their lives to be successful, which makes it impossible to be successful. Unless they were born wealthy...


We actually have a problem with kids on the welfare system being obese because they stay home and play video games. with all of the food pantries and welfare programs, there should never be person that is hungry.

But there are, because of a myriad of technical difficulties, same as with shelters.


Clean water is not an issue in this country? we are blesses

It is in some places. Good luck getting any water in California, let alone clean water.


Modern utilities, I am sure that there are places in the rural hills that have issues but again this is a rare problem, Amish for example don't have access to modern utilities but that is by choice.

A rare problem is still a problem, and it's not actually all that rare. We have millions of homeless people in this country, homeless people don't have utilities. And free access to those utilities, again, runs into a myriad number of wrinkles, just like shelters and food banks.


So tell me what policies, that we are giving major corporations, are actually making it so the poor are oppressed?

For starters, our approach to college education.


Or do you think that some of the government programs that are designed to help the poor actually trap them?

Some of them certainly do. If you've ever read any of my posts about our welfare system, you know that I don't have much nice to say about our government's approach to helping the poor. But I also see that there are some very good systems in place that are helping, not trapping, the poor. Utah reduced its rate of homelessness by over 90% by revolutionary means - they put homeless people in affordable housing and gave them a caseworker. That's a government program, funded by the state government.


And yes I am comparing them to the people that live in India, China, Russia, the middle east, the Slavic nations.

The people on welfare in this country are at least upper middle class in those nations. That is reality, but it does not mean that we refuse to address the problems.

Again, it's an irrelevant comparison, because they don't live in those nations. They live here, and given the standard of living that exists here, yeah, they are about on the level. Take the upper classes of all those nations you mentioned. How are the poor living in relation to those upper classes?

Now take our nation's upper classes, and compare them to our nation's poor. That's the only relevant comparison.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 02:35 AM
LOL, not much. That gate was built in the 16th century. :laugh:

It is just a picture of the eye of the needle. This may surprise you but they did not have cameras back in biblical times The eye of the needle was the small gate that was used after dark to let people into the cities. If you arrived on camel they either went through the eye or they stayed outside the city.

It was to dangerous to open the main gates after dark

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 02:35 AM
Yeah but are they the ones that actually matter?


Matter to who? The fundamentalists of all religions are minorities.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 02:47 AM
All you have to do is put [ / quote ] without the spaces after each portion you want to make a separate quote. For each quote after the first one, you also have to put [ quote ] without the spaces in front of the portion you want to quote. For example:

[ quote ] This is how you do it. [ / quote ]

Respond here, and then move to the next sentence...

[ quote ] If you want to, anyway. [ / quote ]

Rinse and repeat. It is a cool feature, I love it. Makes stuff easier to read, IMO.



I respect that. The most assistance my father took was unemployment during a really bad year, and he was only on it for less than a month. That, and my mom gets disability (but that's recent and she actually has a disability). Other than that, my parents have never taken government assistance and what they have taken, they never abused.



It's not as impossible as you think. Shelters run out of room, and sometimes, the next closest shelter is too far to walk to and often close their doors before they even fill up all their spaces, leaving anyone that couldn't get there in time out in the elements.



Sure, it's by choice, but what other choice can be made? Forget a college education and be forced to live as a burger flipper for $7.25 an hour? Less if we completely eliminate the minimum wage? You have to get an education to really get anywhere in life these days, and an education is so god$#@! expensive you have to take out loans to afford it, and in our present economic climate you don't have much luck for a good while after you get out of college as far as making enough money to pay it off, and interest just keeps on rising.

So yeah, accepting the loan is a choice, but we don't give people any real alternative. We scream at them all their lives to be successful, and then we tell them they have to go into debt for the rest of their lives to be successful, which makes it impossible to be successful. Unless they were born wealthy...



But there are, because of a myriad of technical difficulties, same as with shelters.



It is in some places. Good luck getting any water in California, let alone clean water.



A rare problem is still a problem, and it's not actually all that rare. We have millions of homeless people in this country, homeless people don't have utilities. And free access to those utilities, again, runs into a myriad number of wrinkles, just like shelters and food banks.



For starters, our approach to college education.



Some of them certainly do. If you've ever read any of my posts about our welfare system, you know that I don't have much nice to say about our government's approach to helping the poor. But I also see that there are some very good systems in place that are helping, not trapping, the poor. Utah reduced its rate of homelessness by over 90% by revolutionary means - they put homeless people in affordable housing and gave them a caseworker. That's a government program, funded by the state government.



Again, it's an irrelevant comparison, because they don't live in those nations. They live here, and given the standard of living that exists here, yeah, they are about on the level. Take the upper classes of all those nations you mentioned. How are the poor living in relation to those upper classes?

Now take our nation's upper classes, and compare them to our nation's poor. That's the only relevant comparison.

So I take exception to the fact that you can't make it without a collage education. That is simply not true.

But it is harder. If you want to bring down the cost of collage, you get rid of the student loan program completely.

community collages are not that expensive. trade schools. and learning to invest correctly. We are training our children and young people to believe that they don't have a chance.

Now because your sale is over I don't have pictures of these properties, but it looks like TN prices are much the same as MI. people don't know about this and that is a good thing.

I know real estate so that is why I use this as an example. I have a friend that is making more since his injury selling stuff he finds at garage sales on Ebay then he did as an electrician.

http://www.knoxcounty.org/trustee/pdfs/tax_sale_results.pdf

You want to have a great career learn to service appliances. It is not that hard to learn and a needed trade

for those with people skills sales is a great way to make a living.

Collage is not the beat all and end all. the construction trades are largely self taught. but in many areas the illegals are taking over the trade.

GrassrootsConservative
07-12-2015, 02:51 AM
An institution can't talk. People talk, and people pay taxes.

The pope talks as the head of a religious institution.

kilgram
07-12-2015, 07:30 AM
So lets discuss the poor in the United States?

Are they homeless, other than by choice? Yes, they are.

Are they starving in the streets? Yes, the ones that are homeless.

Do they lack educations and clean water? Yes, the homeless lack. Also many people living in guettos...

Do they have access to modern utilities? No, many poor don't.

Capitalism has produced a country that the poor (people on welfare) are among the wealthiest people in the world.

Now what we have is a system where the politicians have changed the system that was to be a hand up, and used that system and the rules they apply to it, to enslave the people and make it very hard for them to get off this system. Progressive politicians have decimated the educations system and we are turning out idiots that have little to no chance of breaking the cycle of poverty.

WE have political leaders that refuse to stop the illegal entry into this country, which reduces the wages for the un skilled worker.

Now this is not a democrat or republican issue, both sides support these issues and things that are feel good, like the raising of the minimum wage, only work against the poor and middle class.

Again we can't fix the problem until we face what reality really is.

The best example we have or true capitalism in the USA is what is happening in N Dakota and it is solving every issue that our government has been failing at.

Answers in bold

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 07:37 AM
SURPRISE! Addressing moral issues is in the Pope's job description! Its really amazing to see people accuse him of being political when he addresses the basics of Christianity.

Reminder: Jesus was a long-haired, skirt & sandal wearing hippie who preached an agenda almost directly opposed to the establishment of the time. Care for the less fortunate, do unto others....all that bleeding-heart liberal stuff so out of style today. Maybe a refresher on the Beatitudes would be helpful.

donttread
07-12-2015, 07:58 AM
Pope: Poor are sacrificed on 'the altar of money'
By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/living/pope-notes-prison/index.html




=====================================

The Pope really tells it like it is! He holds nothing back and obviously wants for much of the prejudices of the Roman Catholic Church to subside and take a different turn in order for the Church to be more inclusive rather than to remain intolerant of certain people. That is good and we should all wish him well. Many thanks to CNN for this report.

Said the man living in the mansion on the backs of poor and middle class Catholics.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 07:59 AM
Answers in bold

I am sorry to here that is Spain it is thatbad, I hope that it gets better for you.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 08:54 AM
He left out the part that the poor are basically the only ones going to heaven.

I have true on ignore but I saw the quote in your post. Did she really just say that the RCC has been intolerant of the poor? :laugh:

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 09:45 AM
Matter to who? The fundamentalists of all religions are minorities.

To the people who are ultimately effected.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 09:46 AM
I have true on ignore but I saw the quote in your post. Did she really just say that the RCC has been intolerant of the poor? :laugh:

Nah. The Pope.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:00 AM
Nah. The Pope.

Sadly, that doesn't make it sound any less ludicrous.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:03 AM
Sadly, that doesn't make it sound any less ludicrous.

He just wants them to be rich.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:05 AM
He just wants them to be rich.

No, the church has traditionally criticized materialism. He just wants them to be live good lives free from exploitation and domination.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:06 AM
No, the church has traditionally criticized materialism. He just wants them to be live good lives free from exploitation and domination.

More tithing.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:08 AM
More tithing.

Tithing is exploitation and domination? Yeah, OK lol

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:11 AM
Tithing is exploitation and domination? Yeah, OK lol

It is if it's under the threat of hell.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:12 AM
It is if it's under the threat of hell.

Wut?

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:14 AM
Wut?

Tithing is a requirement.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:18 AM
Tithing is a requirement.

Not really. It's just something you should do, not something you have to do. Like giving to charity.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:23 AM
Tithing is a requirement.

Sorry, went to a few thousand Masses in my lifetime and Catholic school for 12 years. Never once heard about going to hell for not tithing.

BTW, most Christian churches encourage a tithe. They just don't call it that.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:24 AM
Not really. It's just something you should do, not something you have to do. Like giving to charity.

It is within your means it's a moral obligation.

domer76
07-12-2015, 10:24 AM
An institution can't talk. People talk, and people pay taxes.

I thought corporations have First Amendment rights now. Money talks and institutions have money.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:29 AM
It is within your means it's a moral obligation.

Right. It's something you should do, not something you have to do.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:29 AM
Not really. It's just something you should do, not something you have to do. Like giving to charity.

Tad different.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:29 AM
It is within your means it's a moral obligation.

Morals drilled into by the church.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:30 AM
I thought corporations have First Amendment rights now. Money talks and institutions have money.

That was a stupid argument applied to corporations. Churches are protected by the First Amendment, but only insofar as the speech within those churches remains religious and not political.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:30 AM
Right. It's something you should do, not something you have to do.

Exactly. It's essentially a matte of giving to charity.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:30 AM
Tad different.

It really isn't.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:30 AM
Sorry, went to a few thousand Masses in my lifetime and Catholic school for 12 years. Never once heard about going to hell for not tithing.

BTW, most Christian churches encourage a tithe. They just don't call it that.

All churches have it in some form or fashion. That is how they make their money.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:30 AM
Morals drilled into by the church.

Um...yeah and?

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:34 AM
Um...yeah and?

You know what the money is for right?

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:36 AM
It really isn't.

2 Corinthians 9:7 ESV / 2,035 helpful votes

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Malachi 3:10 ESV / 1,399 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

What charity says stuff like this?

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:38 AM
2 Corinthians 9:7 ESV / 2,035 helpful votes

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Malachi 3:10 ESV / 1,399 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.

What charity says stuff like this?

That giving to charity benefits yourself as much as it benefits the charity?

All of them?

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:38 AM
All churches have it in some form or fashion. That is how they make their money.

OK

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:39 AM
You know what the money is for right?

Yes, but it doesn't appear that you do.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:39 AM
That giving to charity benefits yourself as much as it benefits the charity?

All of them?

That's the point. No tithing no benefit from God. He likes a cheerful giver.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:40 AM
Yes, but it doesn't appear that you do.

It's main purpose is to convert more people...for more tithing...to recruit more people...

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:41 AM
OK

Sure it's OK. But it's the world's oldest pyramid scheme.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:43 AM
It's main purpose is to convert more people...for more tithing...to recruit more people...

OK.

I mean how am I supposed top respond to this? Yeah, you're right. It's a pyramid scheme. :rollseyes:

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:45 AM
OK.

I mean how am I supposed top respond to this? Yeah, you're right. It's a pyramid scheme. :rollseyes:

You can't respond to it because it's exactly the case.

I'm sorry you and I have differing views on this as it seems to be an upsetting topic for you.

Bottom line, the ancillary benefit the comes from tithing does not outweigh or mask the overreaching goal.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:46 AM
That's the point. No tithing no benefit from God. He likes a cheerful giver.

You're right, encouraging people to give to charity is terrible.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:47 AM
You're right, encouraging people to give to charity is terrible.

Religions are not charities. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:47 AM
You can't respond to it because it's exactly the case.

I'm sorry you and I have differing views on this as it seems to be an upsetting topic for you.

Bottom line, the ancillary benefit the comes from tithing does not outweigh or mask the overreaching goal.

OK then demonstrate it. I'll wait. That's exactly the case, right? Go ahead.

No, like most critics of Catholicism you make silly claims and then accuse your opponent of getting defensive.

Make your case.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 10:48 AM
OK then demonstrate it. I'll wait. That's exactly the case, right? Go ahead.

No, like most critics of Catholicism you make silly claims and then accuse your opponent of getting defensive.

Make your case.

I already made my case. It's really very simple.

The Catholic Church exists solely to make more Catholics. Everything else is secondary.

Green Arrow
07-12-2015, 10:49 AM
Religions are not charities. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

When I give to the church that I support, and my wife gives to her parish, we are supporting charity because that church and that parish use that money to do charitable things in the community and around the world.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:49 AM
Religions are not charities. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Catholic Charities USA, for example, is one of if the largest charities in the US.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:51 AM
I already made my case. It's really very simple.

The Catholic Church exists solely to make more Catholics. Everything else is secondary.

No, you made a claim. Again, I'll wait for you to demonstrate it. Please don't repeat it again. Make a case.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 10:51 AM
When I give to the church that I support, and my wife gives to her parish, we are supporting charity because that church and that parish use that money to do charitable things in the community and around the world.

No, you're trying to get recruits! lol

TrueBlue
07-12-2015, 10:55 AM
So the Pope wants people to go to hell. Got it.
No, he doesn't. The KEY is Salvation through Jesus Christ. But the rich can certainly amend their ways and help the poor and they should since they have the means. When people become saved thus, "Born Again", believing in Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior, and they do kind deeds towards others such as helping the poor they are guaranteed a place in Heaven and their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life at the time of their passing-on as per the Holy Bible.


Prayer To Become Saved - Born Again. (To be said Meaningfully and Out Loud.)

"Heavenly Father, I come to thee with contrite heart as I am a sinner who acknowledges my sins. I ask for your forgiveness and also come forth to declare that I Believe and Accept that Jesus Christ is my LORD and Savior who became incarnate and that He is the most beloved and only Son of God. I believe that He was crucified, died, and was buried for my salvation and then resurrected, arose on the third day through God and sits in eternal glory with you, Almighty God. I thank you for coming into my life, my LORD and Savior Jesus Christ, and I will follow you all the days of my life. Amen."


The reason Salvation is so important is that without it one's soul is imperiled for eternity in darkness. Some may not want to believe that but how easy to avoid any doubts just by saying the prayer above to save yourself and remove the fear as to where you will end up because wherever that may be it is for eternity.


"Jesus saith unto him, I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." -- JOHN 14:6 (KJV)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." -- JOHN 3:3 (KJV)

TrueBlue
07-12-2015, 10:58 AM
I didn't think the bible was a reliable source, but I guess if you're partisan enough...
Atheists may not Believe now. But just let their time come to an end and they die and then meet their Creator and they'll know just how reliable the Bible was! But by then it will be too late for them. The time to Believe and become Saved is now.

Ethereal
07-12-2015, 11:00 AM
Atheists may not Believe now. But just let their time come to an end and they die and then meet their Creator and they'll know just how reliable the Bible was! But by then it will be too late for them. The time to Believe and become Saved is now.

:rolleyes21:

TrueBlue
07-12-2015, 11:07 AM
Fitting the camel through the eye of a needle?
In other words, Jesus was saying that it is easier for something that appears to be quite impossible to allow a person to get into Heaven than for one who has the financial means to help others but who simply refuses to do so while on Earth.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 11:19 AM
When I give to the church that I support, and my wife gives to her parish, we are supporting charity because that church and that parish use that money to do charitable things in the community and around the world.
An ancillary benefit. They are doing the charity to convert.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 11:20 AM
Catholic Charities USA, for example, is one of if the largest charities in the US.

Whose main goal is to convert.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 11:21 AM
No, you made a claim. Again, I'll wait for you to demonstrate it. Please don't repeat it again. Make a case.

Can't argue with myself bro.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 11:22 AM
In other words, Jesus was saying that it is easier for something that appears to be quite impossible to allow a person to get into Heaven than for one who has the financial means to help others but who simply refuses to do so while on Earth.

Right. Refusing to tithe = you're fucked.

PolWatch
07-12-2015, 11:27 AM
While people want to discuss the meaning of the eye of the camel, they often ignore the verses preceding that parable. This one doesn't seem very difficult to understand.

Luke 18:24

[22] When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

[23] When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.

[24] Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!
[25] Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Another rarely quoted verse on the subject:

1 Timothy 6:10 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

donttread
07-12-2015, 11:51 AM
No, the church has traditionally criticized materialism. He just wants them to be live good lives free from exploitation and domination.

And fill that Sunday envelop so he can continue to live in a mansion.

TrueBlue
07-12-2015, 12:57 PM
So are you with him on abortion and gay marriage too?
First of all, I am not Catholic. As for abortion, the Pope is obviously not for it and personally neither am I. As for Gay marriage, the Pope has declared toleration for those who are Gay when he said "Who am I to judge?" That does not of course change Catholic doctrine but it brings the dialogue closer to opening the door towards farther talks on this matter so that the Church can hopefully become more inclusive of Gays rather than exclusive of them. People of a homosexual orientation must no longer feel ostracized from the church as most often than not they attend some church and many are Catholics.

Ethereal
07-12-2015, 01:09 PM
The pope is a fine humanitarian and religious thinker, but an awful economist... :smiley:

TrueBlue
07-12-2015, 01:22 PM
And fill that Sunday envelop so he can continue to live in a mansion.
That is certainly not the intent. Tithing is Biblical and it is to help the church provide the Word of God to the world and its people. Without giving to the church there would be little means with which to pass on God's Word to people. Nowadays, television time and radio time is very expensive and many preachers buy air time to preach their message weekly. Some purchase it daily. The church usually also has a website and E-mail accounts and Internet bills need to be paid. Besides that there are bills to pay at the minister's or priest's rectory and abode. They have electricity bills, gas, light, and water bills, food, clothing, laundry, house cleaning help, gas and car upkeep, gardeners, building upkeep, printing costs for church bulletins, etc. that needs to be paid and their only source of income is usually from church donations.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 02:48 PM
All churches have it in some form or fashion. That is how they make their money.

If you want to try an experiment, try giving 10% of your income to a church or charity and see what happens?

I think that you might be amazed. there is something about giving money Call in Blessing or Karma or what every you like but it just seems to change things.

zelmo1234
07-12-2015, 02:51 PM
You can't respond to it because it's exactly the case.

I'm sorry you and I have differing views on this as it seems to be an upsetting topic for you.

Bottom line, the ancillary benefit the comes from tithing does not outweigh or mask the overreaching goal.

Try it sometime.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 04:09 PM
Can't argue with myself bro.

You're not arguing with me either. You're just making amn unsubstantiated claim. I take it you can't make a case. It's simply an irrational prejudice. That's fine but I will speak up when you present it as fact.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 04:10 PM
And fill that Sunday envelop so he can continue to live in a mansion.

Feel free to help Pickle make his case although you've been asked to do similarly many times before and have always failed.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 04:11 PM
Whose main goal is to convert.

Data? argument? Anything?

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 04:41 PM
Pope: Poor are sacrificed on 'the altar of money'
By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor


The Pope really tells it like it is! He holds nothing back and obviously wants for much of the prejudices of the Roman Catholic Church to subside and take a different turn in order for the Church to be more inclusive rather than to remain intolerant of certain people. That is good and we should all wish him well. Many thanks to CNN for this report.
Perhaps the Marxist Pope should sell all that he and the church have and distribute it to the poor. Everyone gets a penny.

Of course like all Marxists he wants others to give up their property while he gets to keep his pretty dresses.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 04:55 PM
Perhaps the Marxist Pope should sell all that he and the church have and distribute it to the poor. Everyone gets a penny.

Of course like all Marxists he wants others to give up their property while he gets to keep his pretty dresses.

It's not like the RCC gives anything toward charity, education, and healthcare. lol

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:13 PM
I think that passage means that you can't take your money with you so you won't have it with you in the afterlife.
What these verses say are that:
The rich man had to be willing to put God before his possessions.
Only God could save him.
Rich people can be saved like anyone else if they do what God wants. Joseph of Arimathea was wealthy. And Paul said in Romans 2:11 that God doesn't show favouritism. Anyone can be saved.

I believe the point of the story (parable for purists) was that those with great wealth would care more about their wealth than about pleasing God. I also believe that God, as evidenced in the New Testament, offers salvation, and therefor Heaven, to everybody equally.

The Pope will have the hardest time of all. He is a Marxist Scribe or more likely a Marxist Pharisee. He is like a whitewashed tomb, clean on the outside but filled with the corruption and decay of death on the inside.

Hey, not bad for an atheist, eh?

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:16 PM
This might help with the conversation!

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRG30OBNFf8E-aBJJppi6XLCk14qGLGp3PkTPOtDaZb8OQT2wZA (http://www.best-travel-deals-tips.com/jerusalem-eye-of-the-needle-gate.html)
I believe this interpretation is fanciful and incorrect. These very small gates were not called the eye of a needle. And it is not that hard for the camel to pass through it. I think the eye of a needle was the eye of a needle. And a camel was a beast of burden.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:18 PM
Yeah...what are those donations for?

Charity.

Also, you're wrong. Religious organizations aren't the only organizations that basically get off scott-free on taxes. Charities also don't have to pay taxes. For the exact same reasons religious organizations don't have to pay taxes.

Here's a tip...religious people still pay taxes. Aren't you one of those that thinks corporations shouldn't have to pay taxes? But churches should? How does that make any sense?
The reason why corporations should not become tax collectors for the state is to increase the amount of business and place the blame for taxes squarely on government.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:22 PM
Yes, let's. I hope you don't mind me answering your questions, seeing as I'm probably one of few people on this forum (as well as @Hal Jordan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=994)) that fully understands this issue, having been poor my entire life and homeless for some of it.

Nobody chooses to be homeless, but yeah, plenty of them are.

Some are, yeah. Not many though, America is pretty good about at least providing food for those less fortunate.

Some of them do. Considering plenty of conservatives look down on students facing crushing debt from school loans, education beyond high school is largely out of reach for pretty much all poor Americans. Unless, of course, they make themselves even poorer by going into debt just to afford further education.

Many do. Many do not.

That's actually blatant bull$#@!. They are only "rich" in comparison to the poor in, say, India, but they aren't poor in India. They are poor in America. And being poor in America is largely the equivalent of being poor in India. Comparing the two is ridiculous. The only reason the comparison even exists is so the well-off can shrug and say, "Well, the poor could be worse off."

That would be a good point if America was ever a system in which the poor were doing well. It never has been. In fact, in America prior to government regulation, the poor were objectively worse off than they are today.

We also have political leaders that don't have the temerity to show the strength that our past political leaders had in not bowing down to people with lots of money in order to crush those with little money.

Which can't be objectively demonstrated except through "maybes."

Agreed. And reality is that giving big corporations and the uber wealthy everything they want is not going to help poor Americans.

"True capitalism" is a lie, because "true capitalism" apparently means (according to self-styled defenders of "true capitalism, a la conservatives) giving the uber wealthy everything they want and then watching with rapt attention as that gloriousness miraculously turns the lives of the poor into Nirvana.
I sense envy with a touch of Marxism. We have lots of poor who are poor because of their own choices. Finish high school. Get a job. Get married. Have children. When these things are done in order there is a very strong correlation to NOT being poor. Do them out of sequence and you will be poor. Stop at whatever step after the first two that you like.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:24 PM
He has been doing a very good job with this issue. I think that he is a great Pope and I am not Catholic.
I think he is a Marxist disaster.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:27 PM
LOL, not much. That gate was built in the 16th century. :laugh:

My mum (who has studied Ancient Greek) says the passage in the Bible is probably a mistranslation, cos the word 'camel' also means a rope made of hemp.

http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

http://www.hempage.de/en/resources-research/hemp-info/53-die-staerkste-naturfaser-der-welt.html
That is a popular belief. I believe it is wrong. Jesus was not subtle. He wanted to be memorable. A camel is not getting through the eye of a needle no matter what you do. That is why the dismayed question follows. "Who can be saved"? And the answer? "With God all things are possible." God is not needed if the eye of a needle is a small gate one would pass a rope through. I reject the interpretation.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:29 PM
I'm not a Catholic either, but I totally agree with you. :)
He may be the worst pope in the last hundred years. The Marxism is very strong in him. Watch what he does and not what he says. He is a hypocrite.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:33 PM
SURPRISE! Addressing moral issues is in the Pope's job description! Its really amazing to see people accuse him of being political when he addresses the basics of Christianity.

Reminder: Jesus was a long-haired, skirt & sandal wearing hippie who preached an agenda almost directly opposed to the establishment of the time. Care for the less fortunate, do unto others....all that bleeding-heart liberal stuff so out of style today. Maybe a refresher on the Beatitudes would be helpful.
I am not as well versed, ahem, as you given that I do not believe. Can you provide some verse references where Jesus demands that government take from some to give to others? Was Jesus a Marxist (granted Marx was imagined by God but had not yet lived)?

I reject it. God does not demand that one group plunder the possessions of others for the benefit of third parties.

But I will read and comment upon references you provide.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:35 PM
That was a stupid argument applied to corporations. Churches are protected by the First Amendment, but only insofar as the speech within those churches remains religious and not political.
This cannot possibly be true.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:37 PM
You know what the money is for right?
The money supports a large bureaucracy of individuals who live at the expense of those who are entertained. It is like paying the Netflix monthly fee, but without the cool movies and TV shows. Plus the Church wants a whole lot more.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:38 PM
OK.

I mean how am I supposed top respond to this? Yeah, you're right. It's a pyramid scheme. :rollseyes:
It is the most awesome scam ever devised.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:40 PM
When I give to the church that I support, and my wife gives to her parish, we are supporting charity because that church and that parish use that money to do charitable things in the community and around the world.
Right. For the tens of thousands of dollars they will mumble a few words at the beginning of your life, then again when you select a mate and finally when you die. Plus you get the entertainment of course. Go with Amazon Prime or Netflix. You will get way more value for way less loot.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:42 PM
No, he doesn't. The KEY is Salvation through Jesus Christ. But the rich can certainly amend their ways and help the poor and they should since they have the means. When people become saved thus, "Born Again", believing in Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior, and they do kind deeds towards others such as helping the poor they are guaranteed a place in Heaven and their name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life at the time of their passing-on as per the Holy Bible.


Prayer To Become Saved - Born Again. (To be said Meaningfully and Out Loud.)

"Heavenly Father, I come to thee with contrite heart as I am a sinner who acknowledges my sins. I ask for your forgiveness and also come forth to declare that I Believe and Accept that Jesus Christ is my LORD and Savior who became incarnate and that He is the most beloved and only Son of God. I believe that He was crucified, died, and was buried for my salvation and then resurrected, arose on the third day through God and sits in eternal glory with you, Almighty God. I thank you for coming into my life, my LORD and Savior Jesus Christ, and I will follow you all the days of my life. Amen."


The reason Salvation is so important is that without it one's soul is imperiled for eternity in darkness. Some may not want to believe that but how easy to avoid any doubts just by saying the prayer above to save yourself and remove the fear as to where you will end up because wherever that may be it is for eternity.


"Jesus saith unto him, I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." -- JOHN 14:6 (KJV)

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." -- JOHN 3:3 (KJV)


If God exists he cannot possibly desire all of that nonsense.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:42 PM
Atheists may not Believe now. But just let their time come to an end and they die and then meet their Creator and they'll know just how reliable the Bible was! But by then it will be too late for them. The time to Believe and become Saved is now.
:-)

Right. It is not falsifiable. This is the perfect scam.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:44 PM
If you want to try an experiment, try giving 10% of your income to a church or charity and see what happens?

I think that you might be amazed. there is something about giving money Call in Blessing or Karma or what every you like but it just seems to change things.
Even better, give it to a financial advisor.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 05:46 PM
It's not like the RCC gives anything toward charity, education, and healthcare. lol
Who, besides you knows what an RCC is?

I assume that is the short title for the scamming organization.

Peter1469
07-12-2015, 06:02 PM
Jesus's message had nothing to do with government- but charity.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:20 PM
Jesus's message had nothing to do with government- but charity.
I do not believe his goal was charity. That is penny-ante. He was a non-Marxist revolutionary. He wanted to change lives.

Marxism is a faint counterfeit version of what he had in mind. God requires our minds and hearts. Marxism requires our wealth.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:23 PM
Who, besides you knows what an RCC is?

I assume that is the short title for the scamming organization.

You ask that question but you then reveal you know the answer. lol

Seriously, why are the critics of Catholicism and religion in general so incompetent?

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:23 PM
I do not believe his goal was charity. That is penny-ante. He was a non-Marxist revolutionary. He wanted to change lives.

Marxism is a faint counterfeit version of what he had in mind. God requires our minds and hearts. Marxism requires our wealth.

The RCC loves them some Marxism too. :laugh:

You can't make this shit up.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:24 PM
It is the most awesome scam ever devised.

OK lol

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:44 PM
You ask that question but you then reveal you know the answer. lol

Seriously, why are the critics of Catholicism and religion in general so incompetent?
So it is a short title for the name of the scamming organization. :-)

I love scams myself. If I could have come up with one as clever as this I would be incredibly rich, be surrounded in scantily clad, okay, nude, good looking women and do absolutely nothing but bless people all day long--well, part of the day anyway.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:45 PM
So it is a short title for the name of the scamming organization. :-)

I love scams myself. If I could have come up with one as clever as this I would be incredibly rich, be surrounded in scantily clad, okay, nude, good looking women and do absolutely nothing but bless people all day long--well, part of the day anyway.

Make your argument. I'll wait. :smiley:

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 06:48 PM
If you want to try an experiment, try giving 10% of your income to a church or charity and see what happens?

I think that you might be amazed. there is something about giving money Call in Blessing or Karma or what every you like but it just seems to change things.

You know what Dale Carnegie said about charity and giving?

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:49 PM
Make your argument. I'll wait. :smiley:
You will need to explain better. You guys are the ones running the scam.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:50 PM
You will need to explain better. You guys are the ones running the scam.

I didn't think you could make a case. Don't worry. You aren't alone.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 06:50 PM
Try it sometime.

I'm not particularly religious.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 06:51 PM
You're not arguing with me either. You're just making amn unsubstantiated claim. I take it you can't make a case. It's simply an irrational prejudice. That's fine but I will speak up when you present it as fact.

What is it exactly that you want me to prove?

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 06:54 PM
Data? argument? Anything?

Let's start with The Nicene Creed.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:55 PM
I didn't think you could make a case. Don't worry. You aren't alone.
What case would you like for me to make? The Church has been enormously wealthy for hundreds of years. The ones in dresses live very well. They take the money on the pretext that god is watching.

And the beauty of this scam is that no one can disprove that god is not watching. This is awesome! Billions, if not trillions in wealth to men too old to take advantage of the opportunities wealth and power give. And some people think these guys are worthy of praise. That is even better. I won't mention the opportunities for man-boy love.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:55 PM
What is it exactly that you want me to prove?

Whatever you're trying to say. Look, I'm really not interested in reading any more anti-Catholic vitriol. Tag me when you really make an argument.

Mister D
07-12-2015, 06:56 PM
What case would you like for me to make? The Church has been enormously wealthy for hundreds of years. The ones in dresses live very well. They take the money on the pretext that god is watching.

And the beauty of this scam is that no one can disprove that god is not watching. This is awesome! Billions, if not trillions in wealth to men too old to take advantage of the opportunities wealth and power give. And some people think these guys are worthy of praise. That is even better. I won't mention the opportunities for man-boy love.

You're just making more claims. Take counsel with Pickle and demonstrate that those claims have merit. Tag me when you're done.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:58 PM
whatever you're trying to say. Look, i'm really not interested in reading any more anti-catholic vitriol. Tag me when you really make an argument.
lol.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 06:59 PM
Whatever you're trying to say. Look, I'm really not interested in reading any more anti-Catholic vitriol. Tag me when you really make an argument.

I see. So you're just jumping to the defense given a personal bias.

So let me get this straight, saying "The Carholic Church's primary function is to make more Catholics" is "anti-Carholc vitriol"?

Right. Won't be tagging you anytime soon.

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 06:59 PM
You're just making more claims. Take counsel with Pickle and demonstrate that those claims have merit. Tag me when you're done.
Other than admiring the brilliance of the scam I have no claims to make.

God requires no wealth. Corrupt men do.

Private Pickle
07-12-2015, 07:03 PM
You're just making more claims. Take counsel with Pickle and demonstrate that those claims have merit. Tag me when you're done.

Refute the claims! Are you saying rhe Church isn't rich? What are you saying other than "nu uh"?

MisterVeritis
07-12-2015, 07:11 PM
Refute the claims! Are you saying rhe Church isn't rich? What are you saying other than "nu uh"?
Religion makes for strange bedfellows. But don't get any ideas!

William
07-12-2015, 08:05 PM
It is just a picture of the eye of the needle. This may surprise you but they did not have cameras back in biblical times The eye of the needle was the small gate that was used after dark to let people into the cities. If you arrived on camel they either went through the eye or they stayed outside the city.

It was to dangerous to open the main gates after dark

LOL, yes I know they didn't have cameras 2,100 years ago. But the story of the gate seems to be a myth. :smiley:


For the last two centuries it has been common teaching in Sunday School that there is a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle through which a camel could not pass unless it stooped and first had all its baggage first removed. After dark, when the main gates were shut, travellers or merchants would have to use this smaller gate, through which the camel could only enter unencumbered and crawling on its knees! Great sermon material, with the parallels of coming to God on our knees without all our baggage. A lovely story and an excellent parable for preaching but unfortunately unfounded! From at least the 15th century, and possibly as early as the 9th but not earlier, this story has been put forth, however, there is no evidence for such a gate, nor record of reprimand of the architect who may have forgotten to make a gate big enough for the camel and rider to pass through unhindered.
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm

donttread
07-13-2015, 06:49 AM
You're just making more claims. Take counsel with Pickle and demonstrate that those claims have merit. Tag me when you're done.

Isn't the Vatican richer than some countries?

TrueBlue
07-13-2015, 11:49 AM
If God exists he cannot possibly desire all of that nonsense.
Oh He exists alright. But do you want to put it to an actual test when you expire? I always say Better SAFE Than Sorry! A mere few but very special words said to guarantee one's salvation would be truly sad to pass up considering the alternative.

Venus
07-13-2015, 11:57 AM
Pope: Poor are sacrificed on 'the altar of money'
By Daniel Burke, CNN Religion Editor

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/living/pope-notes-prison/index.html




=====================================

The Pope really tells it like it is! He holds nothing back and obviously wants for much of the prejudices of the Roman Catholic Church to subside and take a different turn in order for the Church to be more inclusive rather than to remain intolerant of certain people. That is good and we should all wish him well. Many thanks to CNN for this report.

I wonder if the subject of his next speech will be... The Vatican sacrificed on 'the altar of money'

MisterVeritis
07-13-2015, 03:10 PM
Oh He exists alright. But do you want to put it to an actual test when you expire? I always say Better SAFE Than Sorry! A mere few but very special words said to guarantee one's salvation would be truly sad to pass up considering the alternative.
I am not worried.

It is a wonderful scam!

MisterVeritis
07-13-2015, 03:12 PM
You're just making more claims. Take counsel with Pickle and demonstrate that those claims have merit. Tag me when you're done.
I think not. If you are interested respond. If not the scam stands.

Chris
07-13-2015, 04:13 PM
Money's merely a medium for exchange.

TrueBlue
07-13-2015, 11:12 PM
I am not worried.

It is a wonderful scam!
Keep trying to convince yourself of that when you stand before God for your judgment, MV. Just keep saying that! :)

William
07-13-2015, 11:34 PM
Oh He exists alright. But do you want to put it to an actual test when you expire? I always say Better SAFE Than Sorry! A mere few but very special words said to guarantee one's salvation would be truly sad to pass up considering the alternative.

Isn't that called Pascal's Wager? I heard my mum and dad talking about that, so I Googled Pascal's Wager. It was very interesting.


Pascal’s Wager seeks to justify Christian faith by considering the various possible consequences of belief and disbelief in the God of Christianity. If we believe in the Christian God, the argument runs, then if he exists then we will receive an infinitely great reward in heaven while if he does not then we will have lost little or nothing. If we do not believe in the Christian God, the argument continues, then if he exists then we will receive an infinitely great punishment in hell while if he does not then we will have gained little or nothing. The possible outcomes of belief in the Christian God, then, are on balance better than the possible outcomes of disbelief in the Christian God. It is better to either receive an infinitely great reward in heaven or lose little or nothing than it is to either receive an infinitely great punishment in hell or gain little or nothing.

It is only, however, if such rewards and punishments are distributed on the basis of belief in the Christian God that belief in the Christian God is in our interests. On many of the other possible distributive schemes, it is by disbelieving in the Christian God that one receives a heavenly reward. If any of those distributive schemes were the true scheme, though, then the third premise of Pascal’s Wager would be false. It would not be the case that if one does not believe in the Christian God and the Christian God does not exist then one gains little or nothing, for if such a distributive scheme were the true scheme then one might gain a great deal (i.e. an infinite reward in heaven) by disbelieving in the Christian God.

We form our beliefs on the basis of evidence, not on the basis of desire. No matter how much one may want to believe that a given proposition is true, one cannot bring oneself to do so simply through an act of will. Rather, in order for one to come to believe that a proposition is true one requires evidence for its truth. Pascal’s Wager, though, merely prescribes belief in God; it does not provide any evidence that such a belief would be true. As such, it asks us to do the impossible: to believe without reason.
http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/pascals-wager/

zelmo1234
07-14-2015, 05:13 AM
Other than admiring the brilliance of the scam I have no claims to make.

God requires no wealth. Corrupt men do.

Actually the bible ask for the first 10% not the scraps, but for those of us that do tithe you understand why.

The Catholic Church is wealthy, but they are also the most charitable organization in the world

zelmo1234
07-14-2015, 05:15 AM
Isn't that called Pascal's Wager? I heard my mum and dad talking about that, so I Googled Pascal's Wager. It was very interesting.


http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/pascals-wager/


The only thing that I can tell you William is this.

It is a wonderful ting to be forgiven. It changes you and how you view the world and others.

William
07-14-2015, 07:20 AM
The only thing that I can tell you William is this.

It is a wonderful ting to be forgiven. It changes you and how you view the world and others.

:huh: :huh: :huh:

Chris
07-14-2015, 08:32 AM
Isn't that called Pascal's Wager? I heard my mum and dad talking about that, so I Googled Pascal's Wager. It was very interesting.


http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/pascals-wager/



We're arguing that elsewhere, Pascal's Wager, and Pascal himself says of the wager you have everything to win, nothing to lose--that's why it's a safe bet.

Tahuyaman
07-14-2015, 09:48 AM
The only thing that I can tell you William is this.

It is a wonderful ting to be forgiven. It changes you and how you view the world and others.

Being forgiven also causes one to be more forgiving.

MisterVeritis
07-14-2015, 11:07 AM
Keep trying to convince yourself of that when you stand before God for your judgment, MV. Just keep saying that! :)
God does not exist except in our minds.

MisterVeritis
07-14-2015, 11:08 AM
Actually the bible ask for the first 10% not the scraps, but for those of us that do tithe you understand why.

The Catholic Church is wealthy, but they are also the most charitable organization in the world
The bible, created by and for men, asks for the best tenth. God has no need of it. But corrupt men do.

TrueBlue
07-14-2015, 01:07 PM
God does not exist except in our minds.
I'm sorry that you believe that way but that is your individual choice. I do however hope you correct your way of thinking while you still have the chance in this life.

Adelaide
07-14-2015, 01:45 PM
Even if I think the Pope probably knows better than most what his religion teaches, I'm not sure comments like this are ultimately helpful. I believe part of his job is to speak up for and protect the poor merely because of what his religion says, but these sorts of comments seem more political in nature. He comes off as a political Pope. Maybe that's why he only intends to be Pope for like 2 years and not until death - maybe it gives him the ability to be less of a decorative figure and more of an out-spoken one?

MisterVeritis
07-14-2015, 01:47 PM
I'm sorry that you believe that way but that is your individual choice. I do however hope you correct your way of thinking while you still have the chance in this life.
I hope the same for you.

TrueBlue
07-14-2015, 02:16 PM
I hope the same for you.
My way of thinking is correct and very much in line with that which will assure my salvation according to Biblical teachings. I'm sorry I can't say the same for you. Perhaps in time you will open your eyes to accept the truth to this most important situation.

MisterVeritis
07-14-2015, 04:58 PM
My way of thinking is correct and very much in line with that which will assure my salvation according to Biblical teachings. I'm sorry I can't say the same for you. Perhaps in time you will open your eyes to accept the truth to this most important situation.
I believe the same. I spent more than a year evaluating the claims. I believe it is a scam. It is a cool scam.

I always wonder about people who cannot work it out for themselves. People where I worked were amazed that I am not a Christian. I laughed when one gentleman I had been friends with for six or seven years wondered which church I attended. I told him I did not go to church. He was astounded. I love people, I care about them deeply and have helped many become the very best people they could be. I regularly received very high employee engagement scores from my team. My manager asked me to teach the half dozen leaders one grade below me on how to get those high scores. I told him I do not know how to teach people to love one another.

That said, I am not a Christian because I do not believe there is a god.

donttread
07-14-2015, 06:26 PM
I'm sorry that you believe that way but that is your individual choice. I do however hope you correct your way of thinking while you still have the chance in this life.


You can find many things in church, but spirituality is seldom one of them

Green Arrow
07-14-2015, 07:26 PM
You can find many things in church, but spirituality is seldom one of them

That's interesting, I've never been to a church that didn't have some measure of spirituality.

Peter1469
07-14-2015, 07:31 PM
That's interesting, I've never been to a church that didn't have some measure of spirituality.

Well, you have been to churches....

donttread
07-14-2015, 07:46 PM
That's interesting, I've never been to a church that didn't have some measure of spirituality.

Maybe your churches are different then mine. Try growing up catholic .

donttread
07-14-2015, 07:47 PM
My way of thinking is correct and very much in line with that which will assure my salvation according to Biblical teachings. I'm sorry I can't say the same for you. Perhaps in time you will open your eyes to accept the truth to this most important situation.

Ahh, one true God, one true religion and everyone else goes to hell no matter how well they lived, right?

Green Arrow
07-14-2015, 07:49 PM
Maybe your churches are different then mine. Try growing up catholic .

My wife grew up Catholic and I attend mass every week with her. No problems whatsoever and she loved growing up Catholic.

Captain Obvious
07-14-2015, 07:50 PM
My wife grew up Catholic and I attend mass every week with her. No problems whatsoever and she loved growing up Catholic.

Catholic mass is a great aerobic workout.

Someday I'll tell you about the time Fr. Haney caught me and my buddy (alter boys) knocking down the sacramental wine.

Green Arrow
07-14-2015, 07:52 PM
Catholic mass is a great aerobic workout.

Someday I'll tell you about the time Fr. Haney caught me and my buddy (alter boys) knocking down the sacramental wine.

My knees are bad, I can't kneel for longer than five minutes. She always has me fake it :tongue:

zelmo1234
07-14-2015, 08:53 PM
The bible, created by and for men, asks for the best tenth. God has no need of it. But corrupt men do.

It is not about what God needs, that is what most people don't understand, it is about what you need.

People don't understand it, until you try it.

zelmo1234
07-14-2015, 08:57 PM
My way of thinking is correct and very much in line with that which will assure my salvation according to Biblical teachings. I'm sorry I can't say the same for you. Perhaps in time you will open your eyes to accept the truth to this most important situation.

It is hard to explain what the feeling is when your salvation is secure. One thing I know for sure is you and I will argue over all this stuff here on earth that we think is important. but I still know that you are my brother, and in Heaven, I can't wait to meet up with you and we will laugh at how wrong that we both were, when Christ points out what we should have been worried about! :)

Thank you for your defense of the Gospel.

zelmo1234
07-14-2015, 09:02 PM
Ahh, one true God, one true religion and everyone else goes to hell no matter how well they lived, right?

You can't be saved by works

you have to remember you are not comparing yourself to other people, If we were we would have a case, you are comparing yourself to God. And when you set the bar that high, we all have failed or sinned.

But he sent a sacrifice for us, and all it takes is belief and faith.

8 (http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-8.htm)For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 (http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-9.htm)not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 (http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-10.htm)For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them

TrueBlue
07-14-2015, 10:08 PM
I believe the same. I spent more than a year evaluating the claims. I believe it is a scam. It is a cool scam.

I always wonder about people who cannot work it out for themselves. People where I worked were amazed that I am not a Christian. I laughed when one gentleman I had been friends with for six or seven years wondered which church I attended. I told him I did not go to church. He was astounded. I love people, I care about them deeply and have helped many become the very best people they could be. I regularly received very high employee engagement scores from my team. My manager asked me to teach the half dozen leaders one grade below me on how to get those high scores. I told him I do not know how to teach people to love one another.

That said, I am not a Christian because I do not believe there is a god.
To be able to love one another first starts with a person loving themselves. It is only then that they can love another.

The reason many do not choose to believe is because believing takes a special honor. Along with that honor goes responsibility. And it is far easier for people to remain in sin and in a sinful state than accept the One True God, Jesus Christ, who can cleanse them of most all sins, except blasphemy to the Holy Spirit, and save their soul. But believing would mean that they can no longer get away with doing many things that bring pleasure to these people so it continues to foolishly remain a challenge to them.

It is not until they have a vision about the alternative to Heaven that they will fully understand. I do not push anyone to believe although I sincerely wish that they would. A person needs to learn their lessons for themselves while in this world hard as that may be. It provides spiritual cleansing. And experiencing that which is unbridled and uncomfortable can be a rude awakening for many. Therefore, at the hour of their death they will receive another vision as to where they are headed for eternity and the picture is not a pretty one because it is for Eternity. Most people would love to be able to call to God at that very moment of their transition for Him to welcome them into Heaven but if they are not saved, He will not listen. There is no turning back either once one has made that personal choice to not believe or be Saved (Born Again) and they are about to pass away.

At that very point, they will see a great revelation that will show them that God is real and the awesome but lost opportunity they passed up by not believing. Becoming Saved or Born Again now is what cleanses all from that doubt of where they will eventually end up. Those who think they will just fade to black may be right. But the darkness will be eternal as the soul will live on forever as we do not reincarnate. We live here only once, right now, as per the Holy Bible. But to live in spirit in a place totally devoid of light is not what most people would want for themselves. That is why it is so important to say the Prayer of Salvation accepting Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior in order to assure that you will go directly to Heaven. But again, that is your choice to make. The alternative to Heaven is most real, however, and let me tell you that it can literally be pure Hell.

TrueBlue
07-14-2015, 10:24 PM
It is hard to explain what the feeling is when your salvation is secure. One thing I know for sure is you and I will argue over all this stuff here on earth that we think is important. but I still know that you are my brother, and in Heaven, I can't wait to meet up with you and we will laugh at how wrong that we both were, when Christ points out what we should have been worried about! :)

Thank you for your defense of the Gospel.
You are so right, Zelmo, in what you say here. And yes, it is so foolish to argue over that which is mundane when we have that which is spiritual to embrace because that is what ultimately counts and what truly matters. You are indeed my brother in Christ and it will be wonderful to meet up and remember these conversations when we return to spirit which we are. My hope and prayer is that those who are now lost will find their way and be saved in time. No one can force them, of course, but how truly sad to find that at their moment when they are taking their last breath and they did not know God through Jesus Christ, that they will continue to forever remain lost with no hope of redemption. I sincerely hope and pray that when that hour comes, as it will, they would have been astute enough to know what they needed to have done and that they accepted Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior to assure their Eternal Salvation. God bless you, my friend.

TrueBlue
07-14-2015, 10:38 PM
Ahh, one true God, one true religion and everyone else goes to hell no matter how well they lived, right?
No, it does not have to be that way. If a person can sense God through the Holy Spirit, deep inside, they can be moved to accept Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior and that immediately prevents them from going to Hell or some dark place in between. That is all it takes. A very simple prayer that is called the Prayer of Salvation where you ask for forgiveness of your sins and declare your belief in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and your LORD and Savior who died but then resurrected in order to save you. And at that very instant your name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and you are saved for eternity. No more worries about darkness or where you will end up when you pass-away. No further time spent with such worry. You will then know it will be only one place where you will go. A place of beauty, mercy, light, much love and eternal happiness -- Heaven.

zelmo1234
07-14-2015, 10:38 PM
You are so right, Zelmo, in what you say here. And yes, it is so foolish to argue over that which is mundane when we have that which is spiritual to embrace because that is what ultimately counts and what truly matters. You are indeed my brother in Christ and it will be wonderful to meet up and remember these conversations when we return to spirit which we are. My hope and prayer is that those who are now lost will find their way and be saved in time. No one can force them, of course, but how truly sad to find that at their moment when they are taking their last breath and they did not know God through Jesus Christ, that they will continue to forever remain lost with no hope of redemption. I sincerely hope and pray that when that hour comes, as it will, they would have been astute enough to know what they needed to have done and that they accepted Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior to assure their Eternal Salvation. God bless you, my friend.

Well lets just commit to praying for them, and let God take control. At least they know where our hearts are at, I don't really know how people get through the day with out the grace and forgiveness of God! The joy it brings truly lets you chase the blues away. And being forgiven for those like myself that have things to be forgiven for? That is a feeling that is indescribable.

God bless you too my friend.

TrueBlue
07-14-2015, 10:56 PM
Well lets just commit to praying for them, and let God take control. At least they know where our hearts are at, I don't really know how people get through the day with out the grace and forgiveness of God! The joy it brings truly lets you chase the blues away. And being forgiven for those like myself that have things to be forgiven for? That is a feeling that is indescribable.

God bless you too my friend.
Yes, we must pray for them. I do so daily for the world. They may not know or fully appreciate why we do so but in time they will come to understand.

My life truly changed the moment I became a Born Again Christian by accepting Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior many years ago. It opened up a new perspective for seeing life and having even more compassion and love for people. It is ultimately loving one another as Jesus has taught us we must do that is the KEY that unlocks many doors. Without Jesus, thus God, in your life you are nothing and have nothing. And forgiving one another for the transgressions and harm they have done unto you is another KEY that allows God to forgive you as well. And it is in forgiving that the soul receives the new beauty and fragrance of life itself.

donttread
07-15-2015, 05:47 AM
Yes, we must pray for them. I do so daily for the world. They may not know or fully appreciate why we do so but in time they will come to understand.

My life truly changed the moment I became a Born Again Christian by accepting Jesus Christ as my LORD and Savior many years ago. It opened up a new perspective for seeing life and having even more compassion and love for people. It is ultimately loving one another as Jesus has taught us we must do that is the KEY that unlocks many doors. Without Jesus, thus God, in your life you are nothing and have nothing. And forgiving one another for the transgressions and harm they have done unto you is another KEY that allows God to forgive you as well. And it is in forgiving that the soul receives the new beauty and fragrance of life itself.


That's another one I love. Getting the congregation to pray for me. If more people pray for me I live while another dies from the same condition, ?

MisterVeritis
07-15-2015, 11:24 AM
It is not about what God needs, that is what most people don't understand, it is about what you need.

People don't understand it, until you try it.
What I don't need is the scam that says I will be better off if I give my money to other men.

Try living for yourself for a while. If I wanted to give my wealth away there are plenty of politicians (the new religious leaders for a new religion?) with their hands out. No thank you.

But it is a beautiful scam.

MisterVeritis
07-15-2015, 11:26 AM
To be able to love one another first starts with a person loving themselves. It is only then that they can love another.

The reason many do not choose to believe is because believing takes a special honor. Along with that honor goes responsibility. And it is far easier for people to remain in sin and in a sinful state than accept the One True God, Jesus Christ, who can cleanse them of most all sins, except blasphemy to the Holy Spirit, and save their soul. But believing would mean that they can no longer get away with doing many things that bring pleasure to these people so it continues to foolishly remain a challenge to them.

It is not until they have a vision about the alternative to Heaven that they will fully understand. I do not push anyone to believe although I sincerely wish that they would. A person needs to learn their lessons for themselves while in this world hard as that may be. It provides spiritual cleansing. And experiencing that which is unbridled and uncomfortable can be a rude awakening for many. Therefore, at the hour of their death they will receive another vision as to where they are headed for eternity and the picture is not a pretty one because it is for Eternity. Most people would love to be able to call to God at that very moment of their transition for Him to welcome them into Heaven but if they are not saved, He will not listen. There is no turning back either once one has made that personal choice to not believe or be Saved (Born Again) and they are about to pass away.

At that very point, they will see a great revelation that will show them that God is real and the awesome but lost opportunity they passed up by not believing. Becoming Saved or Born Again now is what cleanses all from that doubt of where they will eventually end up. Those who think they will just fade to black may be right. But the darkness will be eternal as the soul will live on forever as we do not reincarnate. We live here only once, right now, as per the Holy Bible. But to live in spirit in a place totally devoid of light is not what most people would want for themselves. That is why it is so important to say the Prayer of Salvation accepting Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior in order to assure that you will go directly to Heaven. But again, that is your choice to make. The alternative to Heaven is most real, however, and let me tell you that it can literally be pure Hell.
You may have the last word. :-)