Where Obama was right!

[zelmo1234]

Yes I said it.

I had been a little upset that the USA did not get the hostages in the deal with Iran.

And don't get me wrong this is a terrible deal. But when he said today that they did not want anyone to think that Americans' were bargaining chips?

He was right. As hard as it is, we can't make deals to get American's released! He was right. As sad as it is, that might be the only good thing about this deal.

[exotix]

I'm surprised the GOP hasn't made this a campaign issue.

[Redrose]

Yes I said it.

I had been a little upset that the USA did not get the hostages in the deal with Iran.

And don't get me wrong this is a terrible deal. But when he said today that they did not want anyone to think that Americans' were bargaining chips?

He was right. As hard as it is, we can't make deals to get American's released! He was right. As sad as it is, that might be the only good thing about this deal.


It was the ONLY good thing.

[maineman]

It was the ONLY good thing.
have you watched the Friedman interview?

[Redrose]

have you watched the Friedman interview?


No I haven't. Please don't tell me you support what this deal allows?
Iran has NEVER honored any deal it's ever made. Why would anyone in their right mind think they will start now?

Israel is in serious danger. I have no idea what will happen in that region now. I pray it doesn't erupt into a very bad war.

[maineman]

No I haven't. Please don't tell me you support what this deal allows?
Iran has NEVER honored any deal it's ever made. Why would anyone in their right mind think they will start now?

Israel is in serious danger. I have no idea what will happen in that region now. I pray it doesn't erupt into a very bad war.
watch the interview before you start bad mouthing the agreement.

[Redrose]

watch the interview before you start bad mouthing the agreement.


I know enough about the deal to bad mouth it.

[whatukno]

No I haven't. Please don't tell me you support what this deal allows?
Iran has NEVER honored any deal it's ever made. Why would anyone in their right mind think they will start now?

Israel is in serious danger. I have no idea what will happen in that region now. I pray it doesn't erupt into a very bad war.

Actually Iran has honored most of it's deals with the US. Truth of the matter is, that Iran has never attacked a single western nation. Also, the only reason that Israel is in any danger is because they constantly attack their neighbors. Israel is the one that doesn't honor agreements. I believe that Israel has the right to exist, but they have to exist peacefully with their neighbors and stop their aggression towards the Palestinians.

By their own admitted history Israel are invaders into the land of Canaan, so thankfully it's not up to me, or I would just throw them out and give the land back to the Canaanites.

[Peter1469]

Actually Iran has honored most of it's deals with the US. Truth of the matter is, that Iran has never attacked a single western nation. Also, the only reason that Israel is in any danger is because they constantly attack their neighbors. Israel is the one that doesn't honor agreements. I believe that Israel has the right to exist, but they have to exist peacefully with their neighbors and stop their aggression towards the Palestinians.

By their own admitted history Israel are invaders into the land of Canaan, so thankfully it's not up to me, or I would just throw them out and give the land back to the Canaanites.

The early Israelis solved that problem: they slew the Canaanites. There are none left to reclaim the land.

[whatukno]

The early Israelis solved that problem: they slew the Canaanites. There are none left to reclaim the land.

Oh, so you're saying that the early Israelis committed genocide? Interesting.

So, if we follow history, Israel was occupied and incorporated by the Roman Empire, then, after the eastern roman empire was wiped out by the Ottomans, that pretty much erased any legitimate claim that Israelis had to the land right? So when the Ottoman Empire was divided up by the French and English following World War I, and the British mandate created Palestine, that legitimized the area for Palestinians, and after WWII when a small portion of that legitimate nation of Palestine was given to the nationless Jews, they had no legitimate right to occupy any other lands than what was given to them through treaty.

[Peter1469]

Yes the early Israelis committed genocide. *

Your timeline is rough but not relevant. Yes, the Jews were allowed to settle in the British Mandate called Palestine. That word never described a nation, but rather a region. There was no concept of the word nation in that part of the world. And their is no identifiable people called Palestinians.

And the Jews took over through force of arms. This time, they didn't pull a Canaan on the locals.

* Crypto Forum Addition: the Canaanites were inter-bred with the Nephilim, their DNA was corrupt and they had to be exterminated. This is the "unclean" in the Bible that many mistake for homosexuality.


Oh, so you're saying that the early Israelis committed genocide? Interesting.

So, if we follow history, Israel was occupied and incorporated by the Roman Empire, then, after the eastern roman empire was wiped out by the Ottomans, that pretty much erased any legitimate claim that Israelis had to the land right? So when the Ottoman Empire was divided up by the French and English following World War I, and the British mandate created Palestine, that legitimized the area for Palestinians, and after WWII when a small portion of that legitimate nation of Palestine was given to the nationless Jews, they had no legitimate right to occupy any other lands than what was given to them through treaty.

[whatukno]

Ah, I see we are going down the path of the sons of god getting it on with the daughters of men and creating angel/human hybrids! What FUN!

Now you see how they screwed that up? Man being part angel would be epic! I wonder if they had wings?

But getting more serious for a moment. Isn't it a problem that Israelis think they have a right to take land through force? Land that they don't actually legitimately own?

And maybe, perhaps, this violent aggressive attitude is why so many Arab nations really aren't that fond of Israel?

[Peter1469]

Ah, I see we are going down the path of the sons of god getting it on with the daughters of men and creating angel/human hybrids! What FUN!

Now you see how they screwed that up? Man being part angel would be epic! I wonder if they had wings?

But getting more serious for a moment. Isn't it a problem that Israelis think they have a right to take land through force? Land that they don't actually legitimately own?

And maybe, perhaps, this violent aggressive attitude is why so many Arab nations really aren't that fond of Israel?

Isn't it a problem that the Americans thought they had a right to take land through force? I can't name any significant territory on earth that was not taken by force at one time or another, can you?

A title search of the property that you are currently on will lead back to the 1600s if in the east or a bit later if in the west and say "Title by right of Conquest."

Israel conquered the land in the face of the Arab Ummah. It belongs to Israel until someone takes it from them.

[zelmo1234]

Actually Iran has honored most of it's deals with the US. Truth of the matter is, that Iran has never attacked a single western nation. Also, the only reason that Israel is in any danger is because they constantly attack their neighbors. Israel is the one that doesn't honor agreements. I believe that Israel has the right to exist, but they have to exist peacefully with their neighbors and stop their aggression towards the Palestinians.

By their own admitted history Israel are invaders into the land of Canaan, so thankfully it's not up to me, or I would just throw them out and give the land back to the Canaanites.

So Israel should just let the rockets come and not do anything about it? What is it about the left that think that Jewish people need to die peacefully? And not retaliate? What do you think the USA would do if Canada fired over 900 rockets a year into our cities?

[Peter1469]

Israel is a sovereign nation. It need not ask the American regime, or the hard left how to protect its people. Call Hamas and Hezbollah what you wish, just don't call them sovereign nations.

[maineman]

I know enough about the deal to bad mouth it.

....said the person who doesn't know diddly about the deal.

[Captain Obvious]

Iran is no different than any other rogue Arab state like Hamas or Saddam's Iraq - hold hostages, negotiate for shit.

And teh O'bama spread eagle and let the mullahs have their way.

[PolWatch]

well, gee....Reagan traded arms for hostages and that worked out well....didn't it?

[Captain Obvious]

well, gee....Reagan traded arms for hostages and that worked out well....didn't it?

I'm not suggesting we should have negotiated for hostages, I'm suggesting that the Iranians have never and will never negotiate anything in good faith.

A "deal" wit them isn't worth it's asswiping material value.

Obama is an idiot.

[Bo-4]

O was on FIRE yesterday. LOVED the way he handled Major Garrett!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuFkKbrUFw8

[Peter1469]

O was on FIRE yesterday. LOVED the way he handled Major Garrett!



It would have been classic if Obama called him Captain. :shocked:

Military joke.

[Bo-4]

It would have been classic if Obama called him Captain. :shocked:

Military joke.

I get it. I used to respect Garrett but no mas. That was possibly his worst wording of a question ever.

Content? Please. The State Department is working night and day on those guys and Kerry brought it up multiple times during the negotiations.

With all the other nations involved including China & Russia, there would have been no way to include that as a demand.

It's about more than US.

[Peter1469]

I get it. I used to respect Garrett but no mas. That was possibly his worst wording of a question ever.

Content? Please. The State Department is working night and day on those guys and Kerry brought it up multiple times during the negotiations.

With all the other nations involved including China & Russia, there would have been no way to include that as a demand.

It's about more than US.

And in bilateral negotiations it is common to keep separate issues... separate.

Obama was right when he said had we attacked the hostages to the nuke deal, it would have given more power to the Iranians.

[whatukno]

Isn't it a problem that the Americans thought they had a right to take land through force?

Yeah, genocide, no matter who is doing it, is pretty awful.


I can't name any significant territory on earth that was not taken by force at one time or another, can you?

Afghanistan. Even Alexander the great avoided that region like the plague.


A title search of the property that you are currently on will lead back to the 1600s if in the east or a bit later if in the west and say "Title by right of Conquest."

I don't doubt you there.


Israel conquered the land in the face of the Arab Ummah. It belongs to Israel until someone takes it from them.

They were given land in Palestine after WWII, everything they took after that is stolen land. I'm not against Israel being a free and independent state, but the truth is, they kinda are being jerks to the Palestinians.

[whatukno]

So Israel should just let the rockets come and not do anything about it? What is it about the left that think that Jewish people need to die peacefully? And not retaliate? What do you think the USA would do if Canada fired over 900 rockets a year into our cities?

Well, of course not, however they don't have to bulldoze Palestinian settlements, create a series of checkpoints that cuts people off from their businesses and families, bomb the ever living shit out of people, and occupy land that by mutual agreement isn't theirs to begin with. If Israel wants peace (and they don't) they could do a much better job at creating the conditions for that peace.

[Bo-4]

And in bilateral negotiations it is common to keep separate issues... separate.

Obama was right when he said had we attacked the hostages to the nuke deal, it would have given more power to the Iranians.

You my friend are WAY smarter than Major Garrett. He reminds me of a guy i knew in high school.

Likable enough, but dumb as a stump.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Well, of course not, however they don't have to bulldoze Palestinian settlements, create a series of checkpoints that cuts people off from their businesses and families, bomb the ever living $#@! out of people, and occupy land that by mutual agreement isn't theirs to begin with. If Israel wants peace (and they don't) they could do a much better job at creating the conditions for that peace. In 1948, the so-called Palestinians deserted their so-called homeland, letting the other Arab countries fight for them. In 1967, Israel was attacked from three sides and after winning, don't you think they had the right to punish the aggressors through land reparations?

Expanding also increased their security. Before Zionism, that whole area from Beirut to the Suez and from the Mediterranean to Amman was nothing but a pit stop for wandering bandit gangs. The Jews are the only ones who wanted to settle down there; the rest have always been transients.

[Peter1469]

Yeah, genocide, no matter who is doing it, is pretty awful.



Afghanistan. Even Alexander the great avoided that region like the plague.



I don't doubt you there.



They were given land in Palestine after WWII, everything they took after that is stolen land. I'm not against Israel being a free and independent state, but the truth is, they kinda are being jerks to the Palestinians.


Alexander didn't avoid the land we call Afghanistan today. He spent some time there trying to tame the locals and finally gave up. There was a great historical fiction about it, I can't recall the name, but it was from the point of view of two ordinary people caught up in the events. Good book.

[whatukno]

Alexander didn't avoid the land we call Afghanistan today. He spent some time there trying to tame the locals and finally gave up. There was a great historical fiction about it, I can't recall the name, but it was from the point of view of two ordinary people caught up in the events. Good book.

Ah but it wasn't conquered now was it? Fact is, Afghanistan has never been conquered, it's been occupied, but never conquered.

[whatukno]

In 1948, the so-called Palestinians deserted their so-called homeland, letting the other Arab countries fight for them. In 1967, Israel was attacked from three sides and after winning, don't you think they had the right to punish the aggressors through land reparations?

Hell no. They have the right to defend themselves sure, but to take more land than they actually lawfully owned as payment? NO!


Expanding also increased their security. Before Zionism, that whole area from Beirut to the Suez and from the Mediterranean to Amman was nothing but a pit stop for wandering bandit gangs. The Jews are the only ones who wanted to settle down there; the rest have always been transients.

They call them bandit gangs, the US called the ones here "Indians" (even though they were from various nations that had nothing at all to do with India) Lands that these people probably have used for thousands of years for trading now occupied by an aggressive and expansionist people with a god complex. Doesn't make it right.

[Peter1469]

Ah but it wasn't conquered now was it? Fact is, Afghanistan has never been conquered, it's been occupied, but never conquered.

Correct, so far as I understand it. Although they have had a generation or two periods of relative calm.

[zelmo1234]

well, gee....Reagan traded arms for hostages and that worked out well....didn't it?

He did that in 4 hours? That is how long it took before the Hostages were released, Dang he is better than I thought he was.

[zelmo1234]

Well, of course not, however they don't have to bulldoze Palestinian settlements, create a series of checkpoints that cuts people off from their businesses and families, bomb the ever living $#@! out of people, and occupy land that by mutual agreement isn't theirs to begin with. If Israel wants peace (and they don't) they could do a much better job at creating the conditions for that peace.

If the rockets stopped today, there would be no bulldozing of settlements, there would need to be no check points.

If the radical Islamist would lay down there arms there would be peace in the middle east. If Israel were to lay down her arms, there would be no Israel.

[whatukno]

Correct, so far as I understand it. Although they have had a generation or two periods of relative calm.

Relative calm in a region of tribal warlords is up for some very serious debate. These are the people that wore down the USSR over ten years till the Russians finally gave up and left, and they did the same to the US. You have to respect a people that have fended off EVERY major superpower in world history just to be left the fuck alone.

Hell Ghengis Kahn even tried his hand at conquering the Afghanistan region, they just wait out these invasions like a cold. Many different empires try and claim they conquered Afghanistan, the Afghan people just smile and shake their heads.

[Peter1469]

agreed

[whatukno]

If the rockets stopped today, there would be no bulldozing of settlements, there would need to be no check points.1/quote]

Bullshit. Sorry history refutes your claims. Israel has been a very aggressive presence in the middle east. Yes, they do it in order to survive, but they overdo it.

[quote]If the radical Islamist would lay down there arms there would be peace in the middle east. If Israel were to lay down her arms, there would be no Israel.

If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be no Palestinians left.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Hell no. They have the right to defend themselves sure, but to take more land than they actually lawfully owned as payment? NO!



Countries will continue aggressive wars if they don't lose territory when they lose those wars. Punitive damages work. Besides, the Arabs forfeited their prior rights to the land around 1300 when they let the Turks take it from them. After World War I, the Allies asserted their right to take land away from the Turkish Ottoman Empire. But they had no obligation to give it back to the Arabs, because the Arabs weren't the ones who defeated the Turks. The Allies wanted something to show for all the young men's lives lost in World War I.

The Jews were used as an on-site blocking force against the inevitable next jihad. Israel did not provoke the jihad. Israel obstructed it until 9/11.