"Women do not do any of the creative work"

[PolWatch]

I thought this was interesting considering the recent threads about women in the gaming industry. IMPress Polly

'A rejection letter written in 1938 to a young woman applying for a creative position at Walt Disney serves as a reminder of the casual nature of socially accepted discrimination against female workers. The letter states that "women do not do any of the creative work in connection with preparing the cartoons for the screen, as that work is performed entirely by young men. For this reason girls are not considered for the training school."

It’s not that Disney didn’t employ women. It employed lots of them as "inkers" who corrected and filled animations, and worked in physically separate environments from the more prestigious male animators. In this video, you can see how the studio separated "creative" animation from inking:
<snip>
It's easy to forget that tragic events like war can, at times, yield positive social benefits, but the need for a reliable pool of workers seems to have pushed Walt Disney to allow women to "contribute something to this business that men never could or would." But don't take the historic changes in training to mean there's no longer a need or room for progress — Disney had its first woman film director (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-frozen-get-a-horse-female-director-20131124-story.html#page=1) in 2013 (Frozen).

copies of letters & more @: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/16/8978351/famous-rejection-letters-disney-animator-women

[sachem]

Fuck Disney.



Too harsh?

[IMPress Polly]

Gender-based work segregation is indeed the main reason why the income gap between men and women persists today. People often think we're a lot further along toward the realization of full gender parity than we really are: in reality, while 75% of American women today work outside the home, more than 90% of those who do are employed in one of just five specific fields, all of which revolve around "traditional female duties" like housework, child care, the provision of sexual services, etc. Teacher, nurse, maid, daycare worker, stripper, secretary, that sort of thing. Basically, today's women are doing the same things they've always done, but just for a paycheck rather than an allowance. This includes me. (You know what I wanted to be when I was a kid? A train engineer. Good luck, ladies!!) What a coincidence that "feminine" jobs don't pay as much. Separating work along gender lines serves as an easy way around equal pay laws.

Of course another major reason why the income gap between men and women persists is because we still don't require that employers provide paid family leave in this country. No, in this country, we still expect women to quit their jobs when they become pregnant because they have more important duties now. :rollseyes: Ever wonder WHY women don't work as many hours as men do overall per year? Yeah in aggregate many women get pregnant in a given year and have to take unpaid leave from work or quit their jobs as a result.

[whatukno]

Not really sure if Disney has a point or not. I wouldn't think they do. Some of the most creative people I know are women. I'm gonna have to agree with sachem Fuck Disney.

[GrassrootsConservative]

The first three and the last word in the title is all you'd really need. The rest is just filler.

[nathanbforrest45]

Dig up Walt and hang him from the highest tree for being a product of his times.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Not really sure if Disney has a point or not. I wouldn't think they do. Some of the most creative people I know are women. I'm gonna have to agree with @sachem (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=974) $#@! Disney.​Big Sister Is Watching You!

[PolWatch]

Dig up Walt and hang him from the highest tree for being a product of his times.

Wow! I didn't know Walt was still directing operations from his grave in 2013....go figure.

[Redrose]

Dig up Walt and hang him from the highest tree for being a product of his times.


Can't do that, his head is frozen in some cryogenics facility.

[Bob]

I have hired plenty of women real estate salespersons. Paid each the same as any man was paid per their level of expertise. Generally this was measured by sales per annum. My belief is the woman is the superior real estate agent. My belief was not correct.

The reason for this is not what you expect.

The women love homes. I am talking sales women. They have a rather poor working habit of expecting their own personal taste is just what the other buyers want. If she loves the home, supposedly you also love the home.

In my case, my work was based solely on what you the buyer wants. I never imposed my beliefs on the buyer. I listened very well. I spent time asking a lot of questions. I used to tell agents, Selling is not telling, it is asking.

Even the least prepared buyer knows much about themselves.

A darned good up front interview saves buyers and agents a lot of wasted time.

I sold a home to a couple upon telling the male buyer, ... think of the home this way.

You will live in the home, she will wear it. Please your wife and let her live in pleasure. You simply show up after work is done. He later told her that in front of me. i smiled of course.

[Redrose]

I thought this was interesting considering the recent threads about women in the gaming industry. @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)

'A rejection letter written in 1938 to a young woman applying for a creative position at Walt Disney serves as a reminder of the casual nature of socially accepted discrimination against female workers. The letter states that "women do not do any of the creative work in connection with preparing the cartoons for the screen, as that work is performed entirely by young men. For this reason girls are not considered for the training school."

It’s not that Disney didn’t employ women. It employed lots of them as "inkers" who corrected and filled animations, and worked in physically separate environments from the more prestigious male animators. In this video, you can see how the studio separated "creative" animation from inking:
<snip>
It's easy to forget that tragic events like war can, at times, yield positive social benefits, but the need for a reliable pool of workers seems to have pushed Walt Disney to allow women to "contribute something to this business that men never could or would." But don't take the historic changes in training to mean there's no longer a need or room for progress — Disney had its first woman film director (http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/moviesnow/la-et-mn-frozen-get-a-horse-female-director-20131124-story.html#page=1) in 2013 (Frozen).

copies of letters & more @: http://www.vox.com/2015/7/16/8978351/famous-rejection-letters-disney-animator-women


Men of Disney's generation thought of women as the delicate, weaker sex, no head for business or anything of substance. Women who would get the 'vapors' and faint at anything unpleasant. Cook and bottle washer and obedient spouse for all her 'other' duties.

:smiley_ROFLMAO:

[southwest88]

Yah. It comes down to - if you want to break out of corporate strictures, you'll probably have to invent your own career arc. Disney wasn't much of an animator himself - but he ran a very tight business model. He raided other outfits for their best animators, bought out their technological innovations, bought up inventories when competitors fell on hard times.

He gambled & won on the public's appetite for documentaries, nature shows, light entertainment, cartoons, TV, movie one-reelers, entertainment parks as family destinations. I think it's a mistake to allow the concentration of media franchises within Disney - Marvel, Star Wars. There's a standard look to Disney female animated leads: Snow White to Alice (Wonderland), Bella (Beauty), Pocahontas, Jane (Tarzan) & on & on.

But that's the nature of the commercial media beast - the deepest pocket wins. I'm sure Disney will put out a steady stream of product - but the original Star Wars movie had jagged edges, interesting characters & an unstudied winsomeness to them, a raw look to it - all of which is missing from decidedly corporate-looking recent entries in the series.

Back @ the topic - women & minorities & free spirits who want to go beyond the typical corporate boundaries will have to look beyond typical corporations. Try the emerging outfits - the Microsofts & Disneys of the future. It means you'll have to gamble, probably more than you're comfortable with. But the risks might pay off.

[Bob]

My recall of Disney runs from the last part of the WW2 years and his movie cartoons into the 1950s when his company started programs on TV. Disney never made a movie that kids should not watch. And adults enjoyed them as well. Maybe the WW2 era proved to him that women can do many jobs that were supposedly only mens work. Rivets in ships was supposed to be men's work. Women at home were very powerful instruments in our winning WW2. Yes, I recall when Disneyland opened. I recall when he took his company to feature films. I recall him going into TV, at least his company did.

My hat is off to women. They are still awesome.

[Bob]

Dad owned an Edsel. His car of choice had been the Oldsmobile not Ford products.

I did not really learn why he picked the Edsel. I drove the car a few times. I really think it was a very good car. I was shocked so many turned on the car. Too bad they never drove one.

[Redrose]

Edsel was marketed wrong. The country was in recession in 1957, it was expensicve, with fancy new innovations and it's shoddy workmanship didn't live up to all the hype, which doomed the car.

[Bob]

Edsel was marketed wrong. The country was in recession in 1957, it was expensicve, with fancy new innovations and it's shoddy workmanship didn't live up to all the hype, which doomed the car.

I will be darned. I was sure I replied to this.

Dad's Edsel was to me a very good car. I happened to love GM cars. I drove a new Chevrolet Bel Aire by 1956, the hardtop model. Dad never had problems with the Edsel. The unique grill design was not well liked. His buttons in the center of his steering wheel to change into Park, Drive and Reverse worked fine. This was the first car to put such transmission controls on the steering wheel. Dad's car was pretty powerful.

I turned my Bel Aire into a custom hot rod. I always loved it a lot more. But I basically turned a normal street car into a hot rod. Sure i loved it. What kid would not. To mom and dad, my car was too darned noisy and they did not like the loud exhaust with the engine rumbling as it did. :laugh:

[IMPress Polly]

Redrose wrote:
Men of Disney's generation thought of women as the delicate, weaker sex, no head for business or anything of substance.

I think a lot of that is still true even of today's generation. I mean in terms of how powerful men view women. This may not be the age you saw in Mad Men anymore (except in Silicon Valley :rollseyes:), but I mean when you stop for a minute to think about how it is that only 16% of corporate executives in this country are women and that women head up only 4% of Fortune 500 companies in a situation wherein women compose half the workforce...hard for me to write that up to anything but discrimination. The higher up the corporate ladder you go, the more male the balance gets.

[Redrose]

I think a lot of that is still true even of today's generation. I mean in terms of how powerful men view women. This may not be the age you saw in Mad Men anymore (except in Silicon Valley :rollseyes:), but I mean when you stop for a minute to think about how it is that only 16% of corporate executives in this country are women and that women head up only 4% of Fortune 500 companies in a situation wherein women compose half the workforce...hard for me to write that up to anything but discrimination. The higher up the corporate ladder you go, the more male the balance gets.


The glass ceiling still exists.

[Bob]

You know, I hired Carl. Who was Carl you anxiously ask? Carl had maybe 20+ years as a machinist. Name a job and more than likely he had done it. When I hired him, he had been canned by his former company. I had a shop foreman. Greg was a bit over 21. But was he a genius at using machine shop tools.

Carl wanted to own the shop. Hell, his step was to take my shop over. So he planted discontent. Told workers how bad Greg was. It took time for me to learn this but I saw how difficult Carl was to work with.

I know I am to talk about women but men also have a lot of problems with a so called glass ceiling. To Carl, Greg was his glass ceiling. I brought into the shop a job by a soap packing machine maker. We were to make the components that glued the flaps of the boxes to the bottom and top. Carl took the lead on the glue boxes made of Stainless steel. In talking to him, I could see in my mind, how the metal would move as it was being welded. I anticipated the stresses on the glue boxes.

Carl did not agree and persisted in telling me he would do it his way. How dare I question his very long time as a machinest. That is actually a very good argument. Carl had never made one before.

I made him a deal. I told him to make it his way. And when it did not work out, then he would fix it my way and not be paid. He was so cocksure. I was right.

Anyway, a point is we never are told what those women are like on the job. To Carl,he could own my company. To me he was a hard ass punk that a few days later I fired.

Women, if your seniors see you as being a shovy know it all woman, they won't give you the higher job.

[MisterVeritis]

Gender-based work segregation is indeed the main reason why the income gap between men and women persists today.

One of our top engineers had a baby. She is married to an engineer. She stayed home for about four months and then came back to work for no more than 32 hours per week. She just had her second baby and has opted to stay home to raise her two children. When she returns to the workforce in a dozen years do you believe she should earn as much as the engineer who has 20 years of work experience?

[GrassrootsConservative]

One of our top engineers had a baby. She is married to an engineer. She stayed home for about four months and then came back to work for no more than 32 hours per week. She just had her second baby and has opted to stay home to raise her two children. When she returns to the workforce in a dozen years do you believe she should earn as much as the engineer who has 20 years of work experience?

Excellent point.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Edsel was marketed wrong. The country was in recession in 1957, it was expensicve, with fancy new innovations and it's shoddy workmanship didn't live up to all the hype, which doomed the car. Edsel Ford himself was a typical Heirhead, so the clunker was appropriately named. Edsel never would have been anything if his Daddy hadn't been Henry Ford. The same disaster from hereditary rule happened to Bluebell Ice Cream.

[Peter1469]

Edsel Ford himself was a typical Heirhead, so the clunker was appropriately named. Edsel never would have been anything if his Daddy hadn't been Henry Ford. The same disaster from hereditary rule happened to Bluebell Ice Cream.

Yes. The State should have seized daddy Ford's money on his death even if it took a platoon of Brown Shirts to do it.