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View Full Version : Turn america into a democracy now!



DeanSims
07-31-2012, 05:15 PM
America is no longer a true representative democracy or federal republic, it is ruled by the peple with the msot money and or power. We switch parties every year only because we think the next guy cant be as bad as the worst, and sadly, were usualy wrong. If we changed America into a true Democracy or use Instant Run-off Voting. This way every vote woudl make a difference, and America could be considered a real nation of the people. Unforunatly, we would need to due away with the two current dominant political parties and form new ones, hopefully more than 2, hopefully 5 or 6, or more. This would keep the peple who govern our nation the people that we choose personaly according to out own veiws, not becasue there the only ones to vote for.

wingrider
07-31-2012, 05:52 PM
America is no longer a true representative democracy or federal republic, it is ruled by the peple with the msot money and or power. We switch parties every year only because we think the next guy cant be as bad as the worst, and sadly, were usualy wrong. If we changed America into a true Democracy or use Instant Run-off Voting. This way every vote woudl make a difference, and America could be considered a real nation of the people. Unforunatly, we would need to due away with the two current dominant political parties and form new ones, hopefully more than 2, hopefully 5 or 6, or more. This would keep the peple who govern our nation the people that we choose personaly according to out own veiws, not becasue there the only ones to vote for.
ahhhh yes .. a proponent of MOB rule...

Mainecoons
07-31-2012, 06:17 PM
No. Too many idiots out there with the vote. Just look at Blad and Cigar and multiply by millions.

What we need is restoration of the Republic. No more direct election of Senators, term limits for all of them, including the judges.

wingrider
07-31-2012, 06:18 PM
yep.. I agree MC

Goldie Locks
07-31-2012, 06:31 PM
Here is something to sink your teeth into...it's out there, but a lot of truth to it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s&feature=share

Peter1469
07-31-2012, 07:10 PM
You have identified the problems, but you have offered the worst possible solution. Democracy = 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding on whats for dinner.

Goldie Locks
07-31-2012, 07:59 PM
You have identified the problems, but you have offered the worst possible solution. Democracy = 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding on whats for dinner.

I assume you are replying to me. What solution do you have?

MMC
07-31-2012, 08:14 PM
No. Too many idiots out there with the vote. Just look at Blad and Cigar and multiply by millions.

What we need is restoration of the Republic. No more direct election of Senators, term limits for all of them, including the judges.

Thats Right.....no life time Appointments. All Politicans 2 terms 5 years each. With only the first year and last year to campaign for others. 10 years, one decade to give it their shot. Then its.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rEsVp5tiDQ

Hit the Road Jack. Done, finito, and no more returning to Washington DC. Not Even as a Lobbyist, Consultant, or Advisor.

adams101
07-31-2012, 08:50 PM
Doing what “the majority” wants is neither fair nor Constitutional. Democracies have failed since before Christ. It simply means a big group of people wants to fleece a smaller group. They want the smaller group to support the needs of the larger group. It makes absolutely no more sense than a small group fleecing a large one. The problem is not really the greed of corrupt politicians but that of "corrupt voters".

Slavery is a perfect example of a Democracy in action. The majority simply votes away the rights of the minority…. Because it benefits the majority anything is justified simply because a lot of people want it.

The problem is the majority of America does not want individual accountability and a true free market. They all want it slanted to themselves by taking out more than is collected from them. They judge the “success” of their government on how much more they get back than pay in.

Rome was finally destroyed by a “Democracy”. The 'mob" quickly emptied the Treasury, ruined the credit and destroyed the currency. They then set loose on the wealthy and chased every job and industry out of the country......... sound familiar?

RollingWave
07-31-2012, 09:07 PM
We could assume that the problem lies partly in that the US system as it is now basically ensure the Dems and GOP to survive forever, no 3rd party could ever hope to mount a significant cause even in the short run, let alone the medium / long . it has been that way more or less since the late 19th C.

With a pure 2 party system we have the problem of where interest are only vaguely represented, as both party holds a very very wide specturm, that often conflict with itself, hence both party end up representing almost nothing except money and power.

Such as the cases where the GOP's financial conservatives seem to have been completely screwed in the Bush years, as they spent like crazy, mostly on the Neo Con's war causes. (and also alot of other project that fiscal cons probably would object to). this comming after the Clinton years which were generally a fiscal success seriously tarnished the GOP's reputation as a party that knowns when to stop spending more money.

On the other hand, the Dems are even more divided, as it is the collection of a wide variety of single issue causes. that of course often don't have anything to do with each other so they may not agree with each other anyway. folks that support enviornmental issues may not support gay marriage issue or social welfare issue etc...


To "fix" this problem to some extend, it would help to change the electoral laws to something that gives 3rd parties a chance. the most simple way to do it is simply this... instead of have 5 disctrict selecting 5 candidates, you merge those 5 district ino 1 and have them select 5 candidates.

What this does is that it will give the minority vote a significant chance. as with the previous system you need at least 40-50% ish support to win, however in the 5 candidate mode you will only realistically need about 10-15% at best. and maybe even less as votes are even more likely to be divided now.


This means that if in the old system, you have a region where it's 30% dem 30% GOP 10% Libertarian 5% green party 5% Whig and 20% independent, in the old system you'll still end up as a tossup region that probably favors the GOP a bit more, however in the new system, the odds of a Libertarian candidate grabbing 1 seat would be huge. seeing that the Dems and the GOP are both likely to try and nominate 3 candidate or so to win a majority in that region. and thus will probalby split the vote so evenly between them hat the Libertarian and even other smaller party candidates have a shot.

Of course, a multi party system has it's own issue, mainly in the Houses being so widely divided that it's hard to form a majority on anything, but given that the current house pretty much can't do that either ...... ;)

Carygrant
08-01-2012, 03:34 AM
Perhaps you should be thinking wider . For if you believe , as I do , that very soon the Petrodollar Era is over ( Iran opens the first no petrodollar trading market in just under two months) , then the American Bull market of the last 40 years is over forever . China , Japan and all the BRIICS countries are all trading ex PD now !!!
The subject is taboo almost to the point of death if publicly discussed . Ask yourself , why ?
In fact that is the true cause of the wars with Iraq and Libya plus the threats against Iran imo ( there are no WMD there whatsoever , just like Iraq)
The implications following from the end of the recycling petrodollar era are flabbergasting . Regardless of the EU probable huge bust up and possible demise , the fate of the US is independent and unlike anything ordinary Americans can ever absorb .
In such a scenario , the last thing anybody wants or will get is Democracy .
Martial Law ? You can bet everything you have on that one , imho .

wingrider
08-01-2012, 04:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbuBqG9HeP0&feature=related

adams101
08-01-2012, 07:32 AM
Perhaps you should be thinking wider . For if you believe , as I do , that very soon the Petrodollar Era is over ( Iran opens the first no petrodollar trading market in just under two months) , then the American Bull market of the last 40 years is over forever . China , Japan and all the BRIICS countries are all trading ex PD now !!!
The subject is taboo almost to the point of death if publicly discussed . Ask yourself , why ?
In fact that is the true cause of the wars with Iraq and Libya plus the threats against Iran imo ( there are no WMD there whatsoever , just like Iraq)
The implications following from the end of the recycling petrodollar era are flabbergasting . Regardless of the EU probable huge bust up and possible demise , the fate of the US is independent and unlike anything ordinary Americans can ever absorb .
In such a scenario , the last thing anybody wants or will get is Democracy .
Martial Law ? You can bet everything you have on that one , imho .

Very well said. Most people don't even know what a petro-dollar is. They are too busy squabling about illegal immigration, gay marriage and most of all.... what the government can borrow to give them financially. They have no interest in global economics. Their idea of economics is how much more can my government give me back than I put in. We are a country of narrow sighted greed who is about to pay the piper for decades of neglect.

They also don't want to discuss how propping up the DOW with unbacked fiat has supported doubling the debt every 7 or so years. It too is failing after a multi decade run of stupidity and greed. The entire debt bubble is hundreds of times larger than any other bubble in human history and it has to bust..... fairly soon.

That bubble will be of epic proportions and will cause the resources to dry up for about a third of the population which will have to go bye bye.

Mainecoons
08-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Perhaps you should be thinking wider . For if you believe , as I do , that very soon the Petrodollar Era is over ( Iran opens the first no petrodollar trading market in just under two months) , then the American Bull market of the last 40 years is over forever . China , Japan and all the BRIICS countries are all trading ex PD now !!!
The subject is taboo almost to the point of death if publicly discussed . Ask yourself , why ?
In fact that is the true cause of the wars with Iraq and Libya plus the threats against Iran imo ( there are no WMD there whatsoever , just like Iraq)
The implications following from the end of the recycling petrodollar era are flabbergasting . Regardless of the EU probable huge bust up and possible demise , the fate of the US is independent and unlike anything ordinary Americans can ever absorb .
In such a scenario , the last thing anybody wants or will get is Democracy .
Martial Law ? You can bet everything you have on that one , imho .

You are absoluely right. Because the Republicrats and Demicans have squandered America's wealth on debt, socialism and allowing one bubble after another, the U.S. is going to follow the U.K. into the "has been" category in the world. We didn't learn a damn thing from you.

Nor, as we now see, did the French and most of Europe, which is busily driving away jobs and piling up debt on their own versions of the Chevy Volt, namely Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

Peter1469
08-01-2012, 04:00 PM
I assume you are replying to me. What solution do you have?

I was referring to the OP.

The solution: just follow this (it gave us a republic that protects rights over majority rule)

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Chris
08-01-2012, 04:09 PM
Perhaps you should be thinking wider . For if you believe , as I do , that very soon the Petrodollar Era is over ( Iran opens the first no petrodollar trading market in just under two months) , then the American Bull market of the last 40 years is over forever . China , Japan and all the BRIICS countries are all trading ex PD now !!!
The subject is taboo almost to the point of death if publicly discussed . Ask yourself , why ?
In fact that is the true cause of the wars with Iraq and Libya plus the threats against Iran imo ( there are no WMD there whatsoever , just like Iraq)
The implications following from the end of the recycling petrodollar era are flabbergasting . Regardless of the EU probable huge bust up and possible demise , the fate of the US is independent and unlike anything ordinary Americans can ever absorb .
In such a scenario , the last thing anybody wants or will get is Democracy .
Martial Law ? You can bet everything you have on that one , imho .

So we'll follow Europe down the tube, isn't that what I said?

DeanSims
08-02-2012, 03:23 PM
Why dont we have a revolution, you know, choose a leader (me), we take out the government, re-instiute the Consiutution and the good amendmants, make judges have terms, and start over with what we had basicaly in the begining? I may use the worlds nuclear weapons to make ceratin nations "forigve" our debt, and then the USA is renamed the Federated States of America or my personal favoirte: The United Republic of Michigan! :laugh::laugh::laugh::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin ::grin::grin::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Though seriously i did mean this part: Why dont we have a revolution, you know, choose a leader, we take out the government, re-instiute the Consiutution and the good amendmants, make judges have terms, and start over with what we had basicaly in the begining?

Mainecoons
08-02-2012, 03:24 PM
Dean, first ya gotta work on that spelling and grammar. :grin:

Agravan
08-02-2012, 04:49 PM
Why dont we have a revolution, you know, choose a leader (me), we take out the government, re-instiute the Consiutution and the good amendmants, make judges have terms, and start over with what we had basicaly in the begining? I may use the worlds nuclear weapons to make ceratin nations "forigve" our debt, and then the USA is renamed the Federated States of America or my personal favoirte: The United Republic of Michigan! :laugh::laugh::laugh::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin ::grin::grin::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Though seriously i did mean this part: Why dont we have a revolution, you know, choose a leader, we take out the government, re-instiute the Consiutution and the good amendmants, make judges have terms, and start over with what we had basicaly in the begining?
Spelling aside, I'm in!! Where do I sign up??

Chris
08-02-2012, 08:54 PM
There's an old document we could shake the dust off and reuse, it begins...


To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting.

Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia.

I.

The Stile of this Confederacy shall be

"The United States of America".
II.

Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

III.

The said States hereby severally enter into a firm league of friendship with each other, for their common defense, the security of their liberties, and their mutual and general welfare, binding themselves to assist each other, against all force offered to, or attacks made upon them, or any of them, on account of religion, sovereignty, trade, or any other pretense whatever....

Articles of Confederation (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/artconf.asp)

Peter1469
08-02-2012, 09:16 PM
There's an old document we could shake the dust off and reuse, it begins...



Articles of Confederation (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/artconf.asp)

The articles of confederation are shades of the current eurozone crisis. The Constitution, as passed, was the ultimate document of governance created by man.

Chris
08-02-2012, 09:22 PM
The articles of confederation are shades of the current eurozone crisis.

By all means put some meat on that bone. Please refer to the Articles in doing so.

Peter1469
08-02-2012, 09:25 PM
By all means put some meat on that bone. Please refer to the Articles in doing so.

Both political unions lacked federal control over the bare necessities for sovereignty. They did not create a sovereign power. They were lesser.

Chris
08-02-2012, 09:29 PM
Both political unions lacked federal control over the bare necessities for sovereignty. They did not create a sovereign power. They were lesser.

No citations from the Articles to back up your theory?

The problem in social democratic Europe is too much centralized power over sovereign states. The Constitution is not protecting us from heading down the same path.

The Articles left the states sovereign over a weak central government. That's stated clearly: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."

Peter1469
08-02-2012, 09:37 PM
No citations from the Articles to back up your theory?

The problem in social democratic Europe is too much centralized power over sovereign states. The Constitution is not protecting us from heading down the same path.

The Articles left the states sovereign over a weak central government. That's stated clearly: "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled."

No serious scholar ever claims that the Articles of Confederation would work. When libertarianism had a chance-- in the territorial west- everyone worked for statehood..........

Chris
08-02-2012, 09:42 PM
No serious scholar ever claims that the Articles of Confederation would work. When libertarianism had a chance-- in the territorial west- everyone worked for statehood..........


No serious scholar ever claims that the Articles of Confederation would work.

Except that's not the point, your point was


The articles of confederation are shades of the current eurozone crisis.

Your argument about sovereignty doesn't defend that for reasons I gave.

Do you have a defense of your point or not?

Peter1469
08-02-2012, 09:47 PM
Except that's not the point, your point was



Your argument about sovereignty doesn't defend that for reasons I gave.

Do you have a defense of your point or not?

You missed my point completely. The problem with the EZ is the same problem the Articles had. Either understand that or don't bother responding. I have no patience to give you an economics and history lesson. Jesus, this is elementary. I didn't expect this from you.

Chris
08-02-2012, 09:48 PM
You missed my point completely. The problem with the EZ is the same problem the Articles had. Either understand that or don't bother responding. I have no patience to give you an economics and history lesson. Jesus, this is elementary. I didn't expect this from you.


The problem with the EZ is the same problem the Articles had.

Now you're repeating yourself.

I asked you to explain or defend that. And to please cite the Articles when you do.

Peter1469
08-02-2012, 09:51 PM
Go back to school. This is elementary.

Chris
08-02-2012, 09:53 PM
So elementary you can't explain or defend your point? OK, don't.

Mainecoons
08-03-2012, 07:08 AM
I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about. Peter's point seems clear to me and he is far from the only one who has made that point. Essentially, the Articles created a central government that was too weak to govern. So did the European Common market. It is a monetary union that lacks sufficient other powers to see to it that national budget and spending policies are sufficiently syncronized to support the Euro. Hence, it is in the process of disintegrating.

Makes sense to me.

Chris
08-03-2012, 07:51 AM
I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about. Peter's point seems clear to me and he is far from the only one who has made that point. Essentially, the Articles created a central government that was too weak to govern. So did the European Common market. It is a monetary union that lacks sufficient other powers to see to it that national budget and spending policies are sufficiently syncronized to support the Euro. Hence, it is in the process of disintegrating.

Makes sense to me.

To be honest I don't know what Peter was arguing about which is why I asked him to explain, it had little to do with the earlier topic and why in response to earlier comments seeking a more limited form of government in which the states were sovereign I suggested looking at the Articles of Confederation, indeed a weak central government where "Each state retains its sovereignty".

Peter's only point of explanation was "Both political unions lacked federal control over the bare necessities for sovereignty." To me attempts at greater federal, centrally planned control in Europe and the US, depriving states their sovereignty, are leading to our downfall.

I can see how statists disagree, but I see no arguments how more central planning is a solution.

Mainecoons
08-03-2012, 08:08 AM
OK but he is speaking of Europe now and the U.S. under the Articles. In that context, his statement that both political unions did not have sufficient control over the bare necessities for sovereignty is correct.

You can be too weak centrally just as you can be too strong. Under the Articles, we were the former, now we are the latter.

Chris
08-03-2012, 08:38 AM
OK but he is speaking of Europe now and the U.S. under the Articles. In that context, his statement that both political unions did not have sufficient control over the bare necessities for sovereignty is correct.

You can be too weak centrally just as you can be too strong. Under the Articles, we were the former, now we are the latter.


did not have sufficient control over the bare necessities for sovereignty

Perhaps the confusion is over where sovereignty lies. The Articles clearly retain sovereignty for the states. I don't see that in the EU where states (nations) lose much sovereignty. It's significantly different.


You can be too weak centrally just as you can be too strong. Under the Articles, we were the former, now we are the latter.

It stands to reason to me then, since what we have is not working, and the Constitution led to or allowed this, any movement back toward the Articles is called for. How far back is certainly debatable.

Mainecoons
08-03-2012, 08:44 AM
I don't think it would require that much. Simply rescinding the 16th, imposing term limits on all of them, including the judges, and restraining their ability to print (borrow) money would go a long, long way to cutting the Federal government down to size.

Chris
08-03-2012, 09:49 AM
I don't think it would require that much. Simply rescinding the 16th, imposing term limits on all of them, including the judges, and restraining their ability to print (borrow) money would go a long, long way to cutting the Federal government down to size.

We can make all the changes we want but can't seem to keep government constrained to the Constitution, not when many liberals and too many conservatives seek a stronger central government.