Imagine where we could be today if we had responded differently to oil crisis

[donttread]

If back in the 70's when the first 'oil crisis " struck if we had capped oil imports and exports and set out to bridge the difference , to fuel growth with alternate energy and domestic fossil fuels, imagine where we could be today.
We could of then stayed out of ME affairs, created far less terrorist, avoided 9/11 and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We could become far more self reliant in terms of energy and learned to foster local food economies . We could of defunded what terrorist remained and minded our own business leaving /exxon et al to fend for themselves. We could have a much stronger national security and less bread and circus distractions from what Washington is really doing with our money. We could of lead the world to energy independence , instead of fucking around with the internal politics of numerous nations and waging unjust war and been a few trillion less in debt. Only a government owned lock, stock and barrell would of behaved the way we have.

[Mac-7]

If back in the 70's when the first 'oil crisis " struck if we had capped oil imports and exports and set out to bridge the difference , to fuel growth with alternate energy and domestic fossil fuels, imagine where we could be today.


Or if we had told egg-sucking wacko environmentalists to pound sand and unleashed the vast fossil fuels we have in this country.

Nuclear power, oil, gas and coal would not have freed the world from dependence on the Middle East but it would set America up as a still greater greatest power on earth.

[AeonPax]

If back in the 70's when the first 'oil crisis " struck if we had capped oil imports and exports and set out to bridge the difference , to fuel growth with alternate energy and domestic fossil fuels, imagine where we could be today. We could of then stayed out of ME affairs, created far less terrorist, avoided 9/11 and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We coud become far more self reliant in terms of energy and learned to foster local food economies . We could of defunded what terrorist remained and minded our owm business leaving /exxon et al to fend for themselves. We could have a much stronger national security and less bread and circus distractions from what Washington is really doing with our money. We could of lead the world to energy independence , instead of fucking around with the internal politics of numerous nations and waging unjust war and been a few trillion less in debt. Only a government owned lock, stock and barrell would of behaved the way we have.
`
While hindsight is always 20/20, I completely agree with you. If we would have invested money not only in space but alternative energy sources, I daresay the US would be richer, more stable and a technological juggernaut....not to mention the hundreds of thousand lives that would have been saved.

[Mac-7]

Liberals have been traumatized by the man-made global warming hoax and are now making irrational decisions based on lies.

[Private Pickle]

`
While hindsight is always 20/20, I completely agree with you. If we would have invested money not only in space but alternative energy sources, I daresay the US would be richer, more stable and a technological juggernaut....not to mention the hundreds of thousand lives that would have been saved.

We are a technological juggernaut...

[Peter1469]

`
While hindsight is always 20/20, I completely agree with you. If we would have invested money not only in space but alternative energy sources, I daresay the US would be richer, more stable and a technological juggernaut....not to mention the hundreds of thousand lives that would have been saved.

The space program grew our economy. Economists crunched the numbers for Apollo. And could no longer track beyond 26:1. To contrast, welfare payments are around 0.75:1.

To be fair I don't know what the numbers look like for the space program as a whole.

[Ivan88]

The only oil crisis was in the greedy covetous minds of the war crazies.
Prices were low, so they started a war on Iraq, and Iraq oil productive capacity was bombed to pieces by the US.
All those oil wells "blown up by Saddam" were littered with unexploded US cluster bomb munitions left after the wells were blown by the US.
The Iraq's export storage, pipelines and loading facilities were blown by the US, not by Saddam.

This assisted the profits of the bomb makers, the aircraft makers, speculators, and oil companies that the Bush gang had financial interests in.

The retarded, brain dead, deceived, hoodwinked, deluded and collectively insane American public bought all the lies and cheered the destruction of millions of lives and the looting of America as well.

Here we are, having fitted ourselves to match an ancient prophecy for ancient Israel:
The emptiers emptied us out. Hahum 2:2
We are so clever!
We let the super-rich rob us of trillions of dollars, let them shame America, took the blame, sacrificed millions of Iraqis and thousands of Americans who foolishly believed they were doing something "good", and here we are still bombing Iraq so that Israeli backed Talmu-Islamists can take Iraq for "Greater Israelistan."

[donttread]

`
While hindsight is always 20/20, I completely agree with you. If we would have invested money not only in space but alternative energy sources, I daresay the US would be richer, more stable and a technological juggernaut....not to mention the hundreds of thousand lives that would have been saved.

While it's true that our imperialism can be viewed in hindsight, it wasn;t exactly a plan prone to success in real time either

[AeonPax]

While it's true that our imperialism can be viewed in hindsight, it wasn;t exactly a plan prone to success in real time either
`
There's no better time to start than now I guess.

[birddog]

A dozen years ago or so, Dubya proposed a plan to make us energy independent. The democrat congress would not pass it.

[donttread]

We are a technological juggernaut...

Which runs on other people's resources

[donttread]

`
There's no better time to start than now I guess.



Cannot argue with that !

[Private Pickle]

Which runs on other people's resources

Its a global economy now. We all run on each other's resources. But if you're asking me to feel guilty about being the best you're wasting your time.

[donttread]

Its a global economy now. We all run on each other's resources. But if you're asking me to feel guilty about being the best you're wasting your time.


The "best" should never have such am unstable energy supply or vulnerable grid. It's piss poor national security for one thing

[Private Pickle]

The "best" should never have such am unstable energy supply or vulnerable grid. It's piss poor national security for one thing

Our energy supply isn't unstable and everyone's grids are vulnerable....

[texan]

If back in the 70's when the first 'oil crisis " struck if we had capped oil imports and exports and set out to bridge the difference , to fuel growth with alternate energy and domestic fossil fuels, imagine where we could be today.
We could of then stayed out of ME affairs, created far less terrorist, avoided 9/11 and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We could become far more self reliant in terms of energy and learned to foster local food economies . We could of defunded what terrorist remained and minded our own business leaving /exxon et al to fend for themselves. We could have a much stronger national security and less bread and circus distractions from what Washington is really doing with our money. We could of lead the world to energy independence , instead of $#@!ing around with the internal politics of numerous nations and waging unjust war and been a few trillion less in debt. Only a government owned lock, stock and barrell would of behaved the way we have.

Were you around back then? I was and this is a real stretch, it almost sounds like you copied it and pasted it from somewhere else, hopefully you didn't think it up yourself. Technology wasn't there and there was no need to go at that time to boot, not to mention the vast resources we have and have always had. No one would have come to this conclusion and that's why we/they didn't. But in a liberal classroom this all sounds great so carry on.........

[Dr. Who]

Were you around back then? I was and this is a real stretch, it almost sounds like you copied it and pasted it from somewhere else, hopefully you didn't think it up yourself. Technology wasn't there and there was no need to go at that time to boot, not to mention the vast resources we have and have always had. No one would have come to this conclusion and that's why we/they didn't. But in a liberal classroom this all sounds great so carry on.........
Renewable energy while it appeals to the environmentalists in America is treated far more seriously in places like China, where they are choking on smog and in developing nations in the warmer parts of the world where they either don't have a supply of oil, or that supply doesn't benefit the general population. The warm and sunny parts of the world do however have an ample supply of sunshine and the cost of solar photovoltaic cells has plunged by 75% since 2009, making it competitive with fossil fuels. Installations of solar farms are going in all over the ME and Africa. While big oil knew that places like the EU and even America would increasingly be looking at cleaner energy for the future, they actually thought that developing nations would be their new markets. Not so much. All of the developing nations are in the hot and sunny parts of the world and solar energy seems like a safer bet than dirty and politically unreliable oil.

[texan]

Well here is a liberal mind boggler for ya.

Obama is destroying jobs and business with his attack on fossil fuels. He is doing it in the name of global warming. There are two manufacturing countries in the world us and China. They have zero regulations, where we do a good job. Where would global warming be helped the most with jobs here under our management of waste or theirs? But yet he builds their base bigger and bigger with his policies. Genius!

[Dr. Who]

Well here is a liberal mind boggler for ya.

Obama is destroying jobs and business with his attack on fossil fuels. He is doing it in the name of global warming. There are two manufacturing countries in the world us and China. They have zero regulations, where we do a good job. Where would global warming be helped the most with jobs here under our management of waste or theirs? But yet he builds their base bigger and bigger with his policies. Genius!
Perhaps the attack on fossil fuels is a way to persuade the American population to embrace alternative energy and alternative technology sooner than later. The more that people turn away from fossil fueled vehicles, the cheaper that the newer tech becomes, because people will invest in it both in terms of actual investments and in personal purchases of electric vehicles. The more that people embrace non-fossil fueled technology, the less economic dependence on ME sources of fossil fuels. The change will take decades, much like it did to ween ourselves from coal fired energy. Places like China are being pressured by citizens to change because they are literally unable to breathe, but they desperately need energy sources.

[Bob]

If back in the 70's when the first 'oil crisis " struck if we had capped oil imports and exports and set out to bridge the difference , to fuel growth with alternate energy and domestic fossil fuels, imagine where we could be today.
We could of then stayed out of ME affairs, created far less terrorist, avoided 9/11 and the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. We could become far more self reliant in terms of energy and learned to foster local food economies . We could of defunded what terrorist remained and minded our own business leaving /exxon et al to fend for themselves. We could have a much stronger national security and less bread and circus distractions from what Washington is really doing with our money. We could of lead the world to energy independence , instead of fucking around with the internal politics of numerous nations and waging unjust war and been a few trillion less in debt. Only a government owned lock, stock and barrell would of behaved the way we have.

Before oil, they used to blame wars on the correct reasons. Imagine that.

[Bob]

Perhaps the attack on fossil fuels is a way to persuade the American population to embrace alternative energy and alternative technology sooner than later. The more that people turn away from fossil fueled vehicles, the cheaper that the newer tech becomes, because people will invest in it both in terms of actual investments and in personal purchases of electric vehicles. The more that people embrace non-fossil fueled technology, the less economic dependence on ME sources of fossil fuels. The change will take decades, much like it did to ween ourselves from coal fired energy. Places like China are being pressured by citizens to change because they are literally unable to breathe, but they desperately need energy sources.

Obama was never elected to manage our oil market.

Sorry but people ignore the tiny and dangerous cars produced now.

The term fossil fuel is not a bad term, but a very very good term.

This book explains.

http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Future-Presidents-Science-Headlines/dp/0393337111/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1438583900&sr=1-1&keywords=physics+for+future+presidents+by+richard+ a.+muller

12217

[Bob]

`
While hindsight is always 20/20, I completely agree with you. If we would have invested money not only in space but alternative energy sources, I daresay the US would be richer, more stable and a technological juggernaut....not to mention the hundreds of thousand lives that would have been saved.

Alternate energy was not around. And it is super slow. You must wait for wind. Solar is fine if you don't mind wasting many sq miles of land and have the land to use. Then you must carry electricity to the areas it is needed. They did not have the infrastructure in the 1970s.

It looks so easy to type out your solution but to put it into action is very very hard.

I posted a graph of energy sources and fossil fuels are king.

12218

[Bob]

A dozen years ago or so, Dubya proposed a plan to make us energy independent. The democrat congress would not pass it.

More than that, Bush also solved the Social Security problem until Democrats stopped it.

Bush opened areas to drilling that Obama shut down as soon as he took office. We see by his lazy way of handling Keystone what he is up to. But Keystone will open as soon as the republican president takes office.

[donttread]

Alternate energy was not around. And it is super slow. You must wait for wind. Solar is fine if you don't mind wasting many sq miles of land and have the land to use. Then you must carry electricity to the areas it is needed. They did not have the infrastructure in the 1970s.

It looks so easy to type out your solution but to put it into action is very very hard.

I posted a graph of energy sources and fossil fuels are king.

12218

Bob don't believe the hype. I know a man who lives in NNY and produces all his electric needs , including computers and game machines, with an old solar set up and maybe puts $100.00 a year through the generator

[Mac-7]

Perhaps the attack on fossil fuels is a way to persuade the American population to embrace alternative energy and alternative technology sooner than later. The more that people turn away from fossil fueled vehicles, the cheaper that the newer tech becomes, because people will invest in it both in terms of actual investments and in personal purchases of electric vehicles.

It's as if a progressive like Teddy Roosevelt had encouraged the transition to the automobile by shooting all the horses.

What a stupid approach by the environmentalists.

[Peter1469]

It's as if a progressive like Teddy Roosevelt had encouraged the transition to the automobile by shooting all the horses.

What a stupid approach by the environmentalists.


The US Army did that in the transition from horse to tank.

[Mac-7]

The US Army did that in the transition from horse to tank.

Did they shoot all the farmers horses also to force them onto tractors?

[Peter1469]

Did they shoot all the farmers horses also to force them onto tractors?
Why would my statemment elicit that question?

[Mac-7]

Why would my statemment elicit that question?

I thought you were being snide.

If not then I take it back.

[MisterVeritis]

Bob don't believe the hype. I know a man who lives in NNY and produces all his electric needs , including computers and game machines, with an old solar set up and maybe puts $100.00 a year through the generator
Somebody is lying.

I live in Alabama. To supply roughly one-half of my electrical needs it will cost more than $20K for a 5 kW system. That does not include maintenance and repairs.

[Mac-7]

Somebody is lying.

I live in Alabama. To supply roughly one-half of my electrical needs it will cost more than $20K for a 5 kW system. That does not include maintenance and repairs.

If obumer borrows the $20,000 from china and uses the $10k to subsidize half the cost then it looks like a good deal to the typical green ecologically sensitive American leeching off the government.

And someones grandchild can pay the interest on the loan for the rest of their lives.

China will eventually own America but the tree huggers will be happy.

[Bob]

Bob don't believe the hype. I know a man who lives in NNY and produces all his electric needs , including computers and game machines, with an old solar set up and maybe puts $100.00 a year through the generator

I am not saying solar does not work.

[Mac-7]

I am not saying solar does not work.

Solar works but it costs more.

[texan]

Perhaps the attack on fossil fuels is a way to persuade the American population to embrace alternative energy and alternative technology sooner than later. The more that people turn away from fossil fueled vehicles, the cheaper that the newer tech becomes, because people will invest in it both in terms of actual investments and in personal purchases of electric vehicles. The more that people embrace non-fossil fueled technology, the less economic dependence on ME sources of fossil fuels. The change will take decades, much like it did to ween ourselves from coal fired energy. Places like China are being pressured by citizens to change because they are literally unable to breathe, but they desperately need energy sources.


AMERICANS embrace their wallets Dr. You make it where they can afford it and obtain it and they will end of story. That doesn't really have ANYTHING to do with the point being made. We are not talking how we heat our homes we are talking manufacturing jobs and helping save the economy. Clean air and no jobs are not a good economy, especially chasing the newest liberal holy grail climate change.

Ever ask yourself why Global warming has changed names so many times over a very short period of time? Do you wonder why?

[Mac-7]

Liberals don't care about jobs.

They believe they are saving the earth and couldn't care less how much it costs.

[Bob]

Somebody is lying.

I live in Alabama. To supply roughly one-half of my electrical needs it will cost more than $20K for a 5 kW system. That does not include maintenance and repairs.

I have read a poster from MN, not on this forum but on a killed off AOL forum, on how he converted to Solar. His expenses up front were enormous. He was in such joy to lay out up front tens of thousands of dollars. And then he ran into the utility problem. This is not simple. Even so, to get his system running, he took advantage of the neighbors paying for his system by handing him tax funds to build his system.

If it was such a good idea, there would not need to be tax payments to pay the people installing the systems.

[texan]

This is one of the single dumbest threads ever....................What if??? Even if nothing is realistic what if?

[texan]

What if they invented this 15 years before the Iranian crisis and we switch then and it caused the Iranian crisis to never happened?

[Dr. Who]

AMERICANS embrace their wallets Dr. You make it where they can afford it and obtain it and they will end of story. That doesn't really have ANYTHING to do with the point being made. We are not talking how we heat our homes we are talking manufacturing jobs and helping save the economy. Clean air and no jobs are not a good economy, especially chasing the newest liberal holy grail climate change.

Ever ask yourself why Global warming has changed names so many times over a very short period of time? Do you wonder why?
Not really. However, I seem to recall Obama in one of his runs at the presidency promising to reduce and hopefully eliminate the need for ME oil. It wasn't about global warming, it was about political independence.

[Mac-7]

Not really. However, I seem to recall Obama in one of his runs at the presidency promising to reduce and hopefully eliminate the need for ME oil. It wasn't about global warming, it was about political independence.

Obama can say anything but we don't have to believe it.

His man-made global warming hysteria now seems more genuine.

[Bob]

Solar works but it costs more.

It is so much more expensive, the Feds will pay you to install Solar. This means your own neighbors with no solar, pay you to put it at your home. Simple as that, And the cost to start your own system is high as you say. People don't stop to think where they will put the huge numbers of batteries in their homes.

They should FIRST go examine a running system at a home. They will learn a lot by seeing one in person.

[Bob]

Not really. However, I seem to recall Obama in one of his runs at the presidency promising to reduce and hopefully eliminate the need for ME oil. It wasn't about global warming, it was about political independence.

We are using a tiny amount of ME oil. Matter of fact, Obama keeps blocking oil he is able to block.

[donttread]

It is so much more expensive, the Feds will pay you to install Solar. This means your own neighbors with no solar, pay you to put it at your home. Simple as that, And the cost to start your own system is high as you say. People don't stop to think where they will put the huge numbers of batteries in their homes.

They should FIRST go examine a running system at a home. They will learn a lot by seeing one in person.

As with most "new tech" prices drop with time and volume. And as with most government subsidies they are meant to control the tech, energy and or food in question not proliferate it's usage

[MisterVeritis]

Liberals don't care about jobs.

They believe they are saving the earth and couldn't care less how much it costs.
That is because they are not asked to pay for their utopian nightmares.

[Mac-7]

Not really. However, I seem to recall Obama in one of his runs at the presidency promising to reduce and hopefully eliminate the need for ME oil. It wasn't about global warming, it was about political independence.

Obama is a tree hugger who wants to artificially raise the price of fossil through the roof and force everyone to accept new technology they would not otherwise buy.

[donttread]

Solar works but it costs more.

Because of the low volume, prices would drop with time. The key is that solar lends itself to individual home useage and with no $200.00 a month umbilical cord the megacorp developers aren't interested. The for profit market has some faults this is one, development of certain lost cost or low volume drugs is another

[Peter1469]

The cost of solar is dropping dramatically. And new batteries that will be coming online soon will be a game change.

[Mac-7]

Because of the low volume, prices would drop with time. The key is that solar lends itself to individual home useage and with no $200.00 a month umbilical cord the megacorp developers aren't interested. The for profit market has some faults this is one, development of certain lost cost or low volume drugs is another

Would?

Could?

Might?

the fact in the open market solar costs more and government has to bribe consumers to buy it.

[Mac-7]

The cost of solar is dropping dramatically. And new batteries that will be coming online soon will be a game change.

China pays slave wages and cuts corners to put junk on the market.

How long can that last?

[Peter1469]

China pays slave wages and cuts corners to put junk on the market.

How long can that last?

Hint: don't buy Chinese products.

[Mac-7]

Hint: don't buy Chinese products.

In that case you won't see the "dramatic" price reductions you claim are taking place.

[Peter1469]

In that case you won't see the "dramatic" price reductions you claim are taking place.

Yes we will. The price reductions are due to American innovation in the market with new panel technology, alternatives to panels, and most importantly battery life and capacity.

Chinese panels are said to last a long time yet seem to need replacement every 3 years on average. They are junk.

[Mac-7]

Yes we will. The price reductions are due to American innovation in the market with new panel technology, alternatives to panels, and most importantly battery life and capacity.

Chinese panels are said to last a long time yet seem to need replacement every 3 years on average. They are junk.

It is cheap Chinese junk that is giving you cheap prices to crow over.

But you forgot to tell us why the price is low till I brought it up.

Probably the clueless 20 something's never think to ask which is why they are all greenies.

[Peter1469]

It is cheap Chinese junk that is giving you cheap prices to crow over.

But you forgot to tell us why the price is low till I brought it up.

Probably the clueless 20 something's never think to ask which is why they are all greenies.


We have numerous threads on new solar technology and the effects on costs.

Chinese solar panels are example of illegal dumping. China pays its companies to sell their panels at a loss in American and Europe. On top of that, they fall apart. They are junk and not cheaper when you consider replacement costs.

[Mac-7]

We have numerous threads on new solar technology and the effects on costs.

Chinese solar panels are example of illegal dumping. China pays its companies to sell their panels at a loss in American and Europe. On top of that, they fall apart.

They are junk and not cheaper when you consider replacement costs.

Exactly.

I'm sure there are new ideas to be found.

But right now your claim of falling prices is misleading for the reasons we gave discussed.

But the 20 something's are easily fooled.

[donttread]

It's like any new technology, prices will drop as volume goes up and more innovation enters the market. The key is using solar at the individual home ( and perhaps apartment building) level with no expensive power wasting , megacorp feeding umbilical cord.

[Mac-7]

It's like any new technology, prices will drop as volume goes up

And greenies will make sure volume goes up by strangling the supplies of fossil fuel.

as I said before its as if teddy Roosevelt mandated the transition to automobiles by shooting all the nations horses.

[texan]

It is pretty much impossible not to buy chinese Peter.

[Peter1469]

It is pretty much impossible not to buy chinese Peter.

Why? I don't seem to have a problem avoiding Chinese goods crap.

[Mac-7]

Why? I don't seem to have a problem avoiding Chinese goods crap.

The US has an annual trade deficit with china of $300 billion

So most people are not doing as well as you do

[Peter1469]

The US has an annual trade deficit with china of $300 billion

So most people are not doing as well as you do

Yes, I noticed.