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William
08-12-2015, 05:06 PM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

Common Sense
08-12-2015, 05:09 PM
It wouldn't help.

http://www.seashepherd.org.au/apex-harmony/overview/alternatives.html

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 05:17 PM
I can't agree with any plan to destroy entire species. I wonder if they realize that taking out the top predator of the food chain could have disastrous affects on the oceans. Where do they think the dead sea life will end up? Those beaches they want to make $$$ from will not be very attractive when they are dotted with dead & rotting sea life. I find it hard to believe than some people are so ignorant of the role that sharks play in the health of the oceans, worldwide.

http://www.sharksavers.org/en/education/the-value-of-sharks/sharks-role-in-the-ocean/

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) - what do you think of this idea?

Chloe
08-12-2015, 05:40 PM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

That would be a totally irresponsible thing to do. Not to mention an arrogant, greedy, cruel, ridiculous, selfish, and dangerous (for the ecosystem) thing to do.

Chloe
08-12-2015, 05:42 PM
I can't agree with any plan to destroy entire species. I wonder if they realize that taking out the top predator of the food chain could have disastrous affects on the oceans. Where do they think the dead sea life will end up? Those beaches they want to make $$$ from will not be very attractive when they are dotted with dead & rotting sea life. I find it hard to believe than some people are so ignorant of the role that sharks play in the health of the oceans, worldwide.

http://www.sharksavers.org/en/education/the-value-of-sharks/sharks-role-in-the-ocean/

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) - what do you think of this idea?

I think it just exposes the complete ignorance that some people have about the importance of biodiversity

Peter1469
08-12-2015, 05:43 PM
Surfers assume the risks inherent in their sport. If they don't accept those risks don't surf.

Ravens Fan
08-12-2015, 05:49 PM
I think we can use technology to deter sharks from certain areas, rather than upsetting the eco-system the way they propose.

Peter1469
08-12-2015, 05:50 PM
I think we can use technology to deter sharks from certain areas, rather than upsetting the eco-system the way they propose.

Yes, there are ways to repel sharks.

William
08-12-2015, 05:54 PM
That would be a totally irresponsible thing to do. Not to mention an arrogant, greedy, cruel, ridiculous, selfish, and dangerous (for the ecosystem) thing to do.

Looks like most Australians agree with you and me. :smiley:


An estimated 6,000 people gathered at Perth's Cottesloe Beach on Saturday amid nationwide protests against Western Australia's catch-and-kill shark policy.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-01/shark-protests-wa-catch-and-kill-perth/5232480


Protester Craig Berry says the government is taking the wrong action following seven fatal shark attacks in three years.

"I don't feel it makes our beaches any safer," he told SBS. "In fact I feel more threatened by having baited hooks out there when I want to enjoy the ocean and I think a lot of people feel similarly.

"I think the number of sightings we have of sharks shouldn't be reported as horror stories, but the sign of a healthy eco system and most of our interactions with sharks are positive."
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/01/thousands-protest-against-wa-shark-cull-policy


Thousands of people brandishing hand-painted posters, inflatable shark toys, shark hats and other shark-related paraphernalia braved the heat of Manly Beach on Saturday to protest at the West Australian government’s shark cull.

Events were held in at least 10 locations across the nation, from the NSW central coast to Adelaide, Melbourne, Hobart and Cottesloe, Broome and Perth in WA. Protests were also held in New Zealand and South Africa.



http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/thousands-protest-at-manly-beach-over-wa-shark-cull-20140201-31tiy.html



http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72079000/jpg/_72079382_72079381.jpg

del
08-12-2015, 06:08 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bossv8SKXv4

Private Pickle
08-12-2015, 06:18 PM
Most surfers wouldn't be for culling sharks.

Bob
08-12-2015, 06:22 PM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

Let the locals decide.

Same as if I back you if you need to fix your safety at your home.

Bob
08-12-2015, 06:28 PM
I can't agree with any plan to destroy entire species. I wonder if they realize that taking out the top predator of the food chain could have disastrous affects on the oceans. Where do they think the dead sea life will end up? Those beaches they want to make $$$ from will not be very attractive when they are dotted with dead & rotting sea life. I find it hard to believe than some people are so ignorant of the role that sharks play in the health of the oceans, worldwide.

http://www.sharksavers.org/en/education/the-value-of-sharks/sharks-role-in-the-ocean/

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) - what do you think of this idea?

Sounds like you also believe that if a dead human is in the ocean, sharks eat them to clean the ecosystem?

southwest88
08-12-2015, 06:39 PM
There's an old saw about fixing only the apparently largest blotches in a paint job on a wall. The problem is, each time you wipe out one set, another set becomes apparent. Absolute safety is an illusion.

From what I understand, Australia has sharks, mantas, spiders, snakes, dingoes, & on & on. Even if you wiped out the sharks, for instance - likely a bad thing to do, & that's the only way to eliminate that threat. & then you'd just get sharks from elsewhere filling in the niche, or some other marine predator would take the empty niche) - then it would be wipe out the poisonous jellyfish, then the poisonous spiders, then the poisonous snakes, then build a sunscreen so that people don't die of heatstroke & sunstroke. The list is simply never ending, once you start down that path.

Better to understand that risk is inherent in life - the whole point to surfing, etc. - is that you put your comfortable self @ some risk, in order to relish your life. If you remove all the risk - which we could do, or @ least, attempt to do - where would be the enjoyment of meeting the challenge?

Yah, it may someday be doable to remove all risk from everyday life - But what would be the point?

Bob
08-12-2015, 06:49 PM
There's an old saw about fixing only the apparently largest blotches in a paint job on a wall. The problem is, each time you wipe out one set, another set becomes apparent. Absolute safety is an illusion.

From what I understand, Australia has sharks, mantas, spiders, snakes, dingoes, & on & on. Even if you wiped out the sharks, for instance - likely a bad thing to do, & that's the only way to eliminate that threat. & then you'd just get sharks from elsewhere filling in the niche, or some other marine predator would take the empty niche) - then it would be wipe out the poisonous jellyfish, then the poisonous spiders, then the poisonous snakes, then build a sunscreen so that people don't die of heatstroke & sunstroke. The list is simply never ending, once you start down that path.

Better to understand that risk is inherent in life - the whole point to surfing, etc. - is that you put your comfortable self @ some risk, in order to relish your life. If you remove all the risk - which we could do, or @ least, attempt to do - where would be the enjoyment of meeting the challenge?

Yah, it may someday be doable to remove all risk from everyday life - But what would be the point?

Yet if you get killed by speed, they find out some way to dump a law on you.

But a killer shark, just misunderstood.

Chloe
08-12-2015, 06:57 PM
Let the locals decide.

Same as if I back you if you need to fix your safety at your home.

If businesses are the ones complaining that the wildlife in the ocean is making vacationers second guess their beach holiday then it's not about the locals really but instead about outside money and tourism. If that's the case then really everybody should have a say as to whether or not they market for a senseless slaughter of sharks since the appeal is being pushed on behalf of vacationers, and so that could be anybody. The vast majority of reasonable people, both local and abroad, would see this as an unnecessary and impulsive thing to do in my opinion.

Bob
08-12-2015, 07:03 PM
If businesses are the ones complaining that the wildlife in the ocean is making vacationers second guess their beach holiday then it's not about the locals really but instead about outside money and tourism. If that's the case then really everybody should have a say as to whether or not they market for a senseless slaughter of sharks since the appeal is being pushed on behalf of vacationers, and so that could be anybody. The vast majority of reasonable people, both local and abroad, would see this as an unnecessary and impulsive thing to do in my opinion.

I am thinking of the dead humans but you think of the living sharks. I still favor humans.

Chloe
08-12-2015, 07:06 PM
I am thinking of the dead humans but you think of the living sharks. I still favor humans.

Killing all the sharks wont bring back a dead human

Redrose
08-12-2015, 07:11 PM
We should not kill sharks. We are invading their space. You swim and surf at your own risk.

Do we kill bears or mountain lions so we can hike without fear of injury? No, of course not.

Chloe
08-12-2015, 07:13 PM
We should not kill sharks. We are invading their space. You swim and surf at your own risk.

Do we kill bears or mountain lions so we can hike without fear of injury? No, of course not.

x2

Bob
08-12-2015, 07:13 PM
Killing all the sharks wont bring back a dead human

Why don't you mind people being killed by sharks?

Chloe
08-12-2015, 07:14 PM
Why don't you mind people being killed by sharks?

I'll give you once chance to find exactly where I said that before I report you for posting in bad faith. After you Bob....

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 07:25 PM
The ocean is the shark's home. Think of them as bakers....they have rights too.

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 07:28 PM
I am thinking of the dead humans but you think of the living sharks. I still favor humans.

simple solution. Stay out of the ocean. Problem solved.

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 07:33 PM
I am thinking of the dead humans but you think of the living sharks. I still favor humans.
Humans don't have to play in the water - we are land mammals. The sharks have no choice where they live. They are necessary to maintain a clean ocean, we are not, but we need a clean ocean if we want fish to eat. More people are killed by lightning playing golf than by sharks when people are surfing - do you advocate messing with the clouds in the sky, perhaps eliminating them because there might be a lightning strike?

FYI there is a way of using sound in the waters around hotels or on the surfers that would drive away all the sharks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2777762/It-s-safe-water-Sharkstopper-device-scares-predators-making-noises-like-killer-whale.html

Bob
08-12-2015, 07:40 PM
Humans don't have to play in the water - we are land mammals. The sharks have no choice where they live. They are necessary to maintain a clean ocean, we are not, but we need a clean ocean if we want fish to eat. More people are killed by lightning playing golf than by sharks when people are surfing - do you advocate messing with the clouds in the sky, perhaps eliminating them because there might be a lightning strike?

FYI there is a way of using sound in the waters around hotels or on the surfers that would drive away all the sharks.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2777762/It-s-safe-water-Sharkstopper-device-scares-predators-making-noises-like-killer-whale.html

I suggest you send your tips to Australia. Perth is on the west coast and sure can use the expertise.

Bob
08-12-2015, 07:42 PM
simple solution. Stay out of the ocean. Problem solved.

In my entire life, I have never swam in the ocean.

Bob
08-12-2015, 07:47 PM
I'll give you once chance to find exactly where I said that before I report you for posting in bad faith. After you Bob....

I asked a question. Questions are allowed in my world.

When topics like this come up, you favor the animal. Do you admit you do that?

Stop making things personal and pestering. Discuss topic, not members.

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:03 PM
I asked a question. Questions are allowed in my world.

When topics like this come up, you favor the animal. Do you admit you do that?
Have you ever heard of the "butterfly effect"? The theory is mathematical and often applied to weather systems, but in short it means that changing one little thing in an environment can create a cascading effect that we may never be able to predict or undo once it has occurred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:10 PM
In my entire life, I have never swam in the ocean.
I have - with schools of barracuda very close by. It was beautiful.

Common Sense
08-12-2015, 08:12 PM
In my entire life, I have never swam in the ocean.

Really???

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 08:14 PM
The sharks practice the original Stand Your Ground law. Its their home & we are the invaders. We are not invited and its their right to decide who enters their home and leaves alive.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:16 PM
Really???

The Pacific is very cold and the time I went to Florida I had no swim trunks and at Hawaii, ditto. I really was not willing to risk sharks.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:16 PM
The sharks practice the original Stand Your Ground law. Its their home & we are the invaders. We are not invited and its their right to decide who enters their home and leaves alive.


That got a laugh from me. So true though.

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:16 PM
Really???
Particularly considering that he lives in California. I've never been to Cali, but if there is an ocean at my doorstep, no matter where I am, unless it's winter, I go into the water. I love the oceans.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:19 PM
I have - with schools of barracuda very close by. It was beautiful.

Most sharks won't bother a human. But my deal is why force a great white to make a choice? Me or the next swimmer. We have very cold water here. I have not herd of barracuda's attacking swimmers.

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 08:20 PM
Particularly considering that he lives in California. I've never been to Cali, but if there is an ocean at my doorstep, no matter where I am, unless it's winter, I go into the water. I love the oceans.

I love swimming in the Gulf. You just have to know what to watch for and where to swim. Bull sharks are common here....in both salt & fresh water (when pupping or young). Bull sharks are notorious about attacking more often than great whites or any other type of shark.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:21 PM
Particularly considering that he lives in California. I've never been to Cali, but if there is an ocean at my doorstep, no matter where I am, unless it's winter, I go into the water. I love the oceans.

Try this. Take some very chilled water, fill your tub. Dump salt into it and jump into your tub. It seems most think the Pacific is warm. It is not like the warm water at Florida.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:22 PM
I love swimming in the Gulf. You just have to know what to watch for and where to swim. Bull sharks are common here....in both salt & fresh water (when pupping or young). Bull sharks are notorious about attacking more often than great whites or any other type of shark.

Why don't people want to swim with fish that don't eat humans?

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 08:25 PM
Why don't people want to swim with fish that don't eat humans?

When you swim in the ocean, you don't get to pick who lives there.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:27 PM
Have you ever heard of the "butterfly effect"? The theory is mathematical and often applied to weather systems, but in short it means that changing one little thing in an environment can create a cascading effect that we may never be able to predict or undo once it has occurred.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

I have studied a great deal of mathematics, physics and the course in Chemistry, first year. And on the way to being a pilot, we had to study weather a lot. Weather leads to climate.

Anyway, I heard of the butterfly theory but not in a formal course.

This theory assumes the system is fragile. I really can't come to that conclusion myself.

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:28 PM
Most sharks won't bother a human. But my deal is why force a great white to make a choice? Me or the next swimmer. We have very cold water here. I have not herd of barracuda's attacking swimmers. They do occasionally - perhaps due to provocation. However wherever you find barracuda, you generally find sharks. The waters I was swimming in is well known for sharks, including the great white.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:29 PM
When you swim in the ocean, you don't get to pick who lives there.

You get to pick where you swim. Also, testing shows what fish swim where. Take my area for example, we know the Great White Shark lives here. I personally don't want to meet one out swimming. But you go right ahead.

Common Sense
08-12-2015, 08:30 PM
I've swum in the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Gulf of Mexico, the Caribbean and the Mediterranean. Haven't see a shark yet.

I can't imagine going a life and not swimming in the ocean.

Anyone who runs for president should have at least swum in two oceans. ;)

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 08:31 PM
Barracudas often attack....'specially when someone goes into the water wearing jewelry. The shine looks like bait fish.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:31 PM
They do occasionally - perhaps due to provocation. However wherever you find barracuda, you generally find sharks. The waters I was swimming in is well known for sharks, including the great white.

I don't fear flying. I don't fear parachute jumping. I can't get over a fear of drowning.

Common Sense
08-12-2015, 08:36 PM
Claustrophobia for me. Although I can go into caves.

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:37 PM
I have studied a great deal of mathematics, physics and the course in Chemistry, first year. And on the way to being a pilot, we had to study weather a lot. Weather leads to climate.

Anyway, I heard of the butterfly theory but not in a formal course.

This theory assumes the system is fragile. I really can't come to that conclusion myself.
As a religious person, do you think that God created anything that we didn't need and in particular the apex predators on the planet? The shark is the chief sanitary engineer of the ocean. If I went to LA and banished all garbage pickup that would be the same thing as destroying the sharks in a major tourist area of Australia or even California for that matter. First thing you know the dead fish corpses and other biological debris would start piling up on the shore like a big stinking mess. How many tourists would enjoy that?

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:40 PM
Try this. Take some very chilled water, fill your tub. Dump salt into it and jump into your tub. It seems most think the Pacific is warm. It is not like the warm water at Florida.
The Atlantic meets the Pacific in the Caribbean. The water is warm.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:45 PM
As a religious person, do you think that God created anything that we didn't need and in particular the apex predators on the planet? The shark is the chief sanitary engineer of the ocean. If I went to LA and banished all garbage pickup that would be the same thing as destroying the sharks in a major tourist area of Australia or even California for that matter. First thing you know the dead fish corpses and other biological debris would start piling up on the shore like a big stinking mess. How many tourists would enjoy that?

I forget how many non human eating sharks there are but my gosh, they number into the hundreds of species I believe. Don't you think that there are many non human eating sharks?

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 08:50 PM
I forget how many non human eating sharks there are but my gosh, they number into the hundreds of species I believe. Don't you think that there are many non human eating sharks?
They all have their place in the organization - Shark Inc. Some eat the big stuff and others eat the small stuff. The great whites are the exec.

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 08:53 PM
There are only 3 known non-carnivorous sharks: the whale shark, the basking shark and the megamouth shark are filter feeders and feed on phytoplankton. Eating humans depends on the size of the shark's mouth & the size of the bite of human flesh they are trying to consume.

Mister D
08-12-2015, 08:54 PM
There are only 3 known non-carnivorous sharks: the whale shark, the basking shark and the megamouth shark are filter feeders and feed on phytoplankton. Eating humans depends on the size of the shark's mouth & the size of the bite of human flesh they are trying to consume.

Oddly enough, they are also the biggest sharks.

Bob
08-12-2015, 08:55 PM
They all have their place in the organization - Shark Inc. Some eat the big stuff and others eat the small stuff. The great whites are the exec.

I am very uncomfortable with thinking it is okay to have white sharks eating humans. It gives me the willies.

PolWatch
08-12-2015, 08:57 PM
I had never heard of a whale shark until I read Kon-Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl. He encountered on while on the raft.

Bob
08-12-2015, 09:01 PM
I had never heard of a whale shark until I read Kon-Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl. He encountered on while on the raft.

And they are safe to swim around. They don't eat humans.

Mister D
08-12-2015, 09:02 PM
I had never heard of a whale shark until I read Kon-Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl. He encountered on while on the raft.

Enough to make you poop your pants. Good thing they don't eat meat.

Dr. Who
08-12-2015, 09:07 PM
I am very uncomfortable with thinking it is okay to have white sharks eating humans. It gives me the willies.
Tell you what - go to the Dominican Republic. The water is warm and shallow (3 - 5 feet deep) and there is a huge reef that keeps out anything but tiny fish. You can't drown, but you can enjoy the water without worrying about anything but jellyfish.

Mister D
08-12-2015, 09:09 PM
If I get attacked by a Great White on my way to the office tomorrow that's a problem. If I get attacked because I insist on looking like a seal where Great Whites hunt...:undecided:

del
08-12-2015, 10:02 PM
i swim in the ocean every day from may to september and have since i was a teenager.

i can't imagine not doing it. not looking like a seal is key.

Redrose
08-12-2015, 10:18 PM
i swim in the ocean every day from may to september and have since i was a teenager.

i can't imagine not doing it. not looking like a seal is key.



I just read a few weeks ago, avoid wearing a yellow bathing suit, that color seems to attract them it is claimed. It was an article around the time the two teens were attacked in the Carolinas.

sachem
08-12-2015, 10:19 PM
Kill them all!!

del
08-12-2015, 10:41 PM
I just read a few weeks ago, avoid wearing a yellow bathing suit, that color seems to attract them it is claimed. It was an article around the time the two teens were attacked in the Carolinas.

i've never heard that, but who am i to argue?

the growth of the seal population around here has definitely been a factor.

Bob
08-12-2015, 11:12 PM
Spate of shark attacks and close calls take toll on NSW north coast towns; surfers call for shark cullBy Thomas Mackenzie-Forbes (http://www.abc.net.au/news/thomas-mackenzie-forbes/167074)

Seems the surfers call for the removal of sharks.

Peter1469
08-13-2015, 04:06 AM
Spate of shark attacks and close calls take toll on NSW north coast towns; surfers call for shark cull

By Thomas Mackenzie-Forbes (http://www.abc.net.au/news/thomas-mackenzie-forbes/167074)

Seems the surfers call for the removal of sharks.

They ought to be ignored. They can surf at their own risk.

Chloe
08-13-2015, 04:42 AM
Spate of shark attacks and close calls take toll on NSW north coast towns; surfers call for shark cull

By Thomas Mackenzie-Forbes (http://www.abc.net.au/news/thomas-mackenzie-forbes/167074)

Seems the surfers call for the removal of sharks.

Then those surfers are some very selfish and ignorant people

Cthulhu
08-13-2015, 07:03 AM
That would be a totally irresponsible thing to do. Not to mention an arrogant, greedy, cruel, ridiculous, selfish, and dangerous (for the ecosystem) thing to do.

I am cool with eradicating sharks that snack on people.

Case by case basis. If a particular type isn't bothering people, don't bother them. If man eating great whites are trolling the waters where we swim?

Let loose the dolphins of war.

William
08-13-2015, 09:11 AM
I am cool with eradicating sharks that snack on people.

Case by case basis. If a particular type isn't bothering people, don't bother them. If man eating great whites are trolling the waters where we swim?

Let loose the dolphins of war.

Or, swim somewhere else - that's their home! :smiley:

Captain Obvious
08-13-2015, 09:19 AM
Maybe the sharks decided to cull us this summer.

Chloe
08-13-2015, 09:53 AM
I am cool with eradicating sharks that snack on people.

Case by case basis. If a particular type isn't bothering people, don't bother them. If man eating great whites are trolling the waters where we swim?

Let loose the dolphins of war.

Sharks don't typically actively look for humans to eat, this isn't a movie. There are all kinds of animals in the ocean that can and do cause more harm to people than sharks will ever cause. Where is the outrage though? Where is the call to cull? Fear makes people do a lot of irrational and irresponsible things.

Bob
08-13-2015, 12:54 PM
Sharks don't typically actively look for humans to eat, this isn't a movie. There are all kinds of animals in the ocean that can and do cause more harm to people than sharks will ever cause. Where is the outrage though? Where is the call to cull? Fear makes people do a lot of irrational and irresponsible things.

In this case, sharks are eating people. Surfers want it to end.

Chloe
08-13-2015, 12:59 PM
In this case, sharks are eating people. Surfers want it to end.

No, some surfers (not surfers in general) want it to end, however, A. It is ridiculous to think you can kill all of the sharks and it be ok, B. It would be catastrophic to the ecosystem to try and kill all of the sharks, and C. Sharks rarely ever attack humans because they are humans, they attack because they mistake them for prey and 9/10 times spit it out.

Ravens Fan
08-13-2015, 01:05 PM
No, some surfers (not surfers in general) want it to end, however, A. It is ridiculous to think you can kill all of the sharks and it be ok, B. It would be catastrophic to the ecosystem to try and kill all of the sharks, and C. Sharks rarely ever attack humans because they are humans, they attack because they mistake them for prey and 9/10 times spit it out.

#sharksneedglasses


Sorry... had to. :laugh:

Bob
08-13-2015, 01:06 PM
No, some surfers (not surfers in general) want it to end, however, A. It is ridiculous to think you can kill all of the sharks and it be ok, B. It would be catastrophic to the ecosystem to try and kill all of the sharks, and C. Sharks rarely ever attack humans because they are humans, they attack because they mistake them for prey and 9/10 times spit it out.

Put signs on the beach not to worry, the shark will spit you out.

Chloe
08-13-2015, 01:12 PM
Put signs on the beach not to worry, the shark will spit you out.

You have a better chance of dying on the way to the beach Bob. The argument to kill all the sharks is nonsensical.

AeonPax
08-13-2015, 01:14 PM
No, some surfers (not surfers in general) want it to end, however, A. It is ridiculous to think you can kill all of the sharks and it be ok, B. It would be catastrophic to the ecosystem to try and kill all of the sharks, and C. Sharks rarely ever attack humans because they are humans, they attack because they mistake them for prey and 9/10 times spit it out.

.

Agreed heartily

Bob
08-13-2015, 01:20 PM
You have a better chance of dying on the way to the beach Bob. The argument to kill all the sharks is nonsensical.

Sharks kill at those beaches. This is why the surfers need protection. Just stop the attacks and I don't personally care how. Australia is half a world away.

Chloe
08-13-2015, 01:52 PM
Sharks kill at those beaches. This is why the surfers need protection. Just stop the attacks and I don't personally care how. Australia is half a world away.

Apathy can kill off species. Your apathy led to you go to the defense of people wanting to kill all the sharks instead of finding a better way that keeps beach goers safe AND keeps the sharks and ecosystem thriving.

southwest88
08-13-2015, 01:54 PM
Spate of shark attacks and close calls take toll on NSW north coast towns; surfers call for shark cull
By Thomas Mackenzie-Forbes (http://www.abc.net.au/news/thomas-mackenzie-forbes/167074)

Seems the surfers call for the removal of sharks.

Cull is one thing, extermination is another. Culling is removing undesirable members of the herd, typically. In the case of sharks, Which ones are undesirable? Only the ones that attack people? Per earlier entries on this thread, that would leave only three species of shark, the enormous sharks that typically are in deep water & feed only on krill & etc.

Extermination is hopeless - even if you could somehow find, ID, kill only the dangerous sharks in a timely & cost-efficient manner - sharks from nearby waters would simply migrate to less populated (by sharks) waters. Unless we're talking about exterminating sharks - sorry, dangerous sharks - everywhere they occur? That plainly won't happen.

& besides, by definition, surfing means man against the sea. As the sea includes sharks, mantas, barracudas, lampreys, Portuguese men-o-war & other stinging jellyfish, anemones, sea urchins, snakes & who-knows-how-many other opportunities to be stung, bitten, injured, drowned, suffer broken bones, sprains, contusions, death, etc. - give it a rest. If the surfers aren't up to the challenge of facing down nature, they should stay @ home & become bubble-boys 'n' girls.

Bob
08-13-2015, 01:59 PM
[/B]

Apathy can kill off species. Your apathy led to you go to the defense of people wanting to kill all the sharks instead of finding a better way that keeps beach goers safe AND keeps the sharks and ecosystem thriving.

I don't recall saying to kill all sharks. Humans are not garbage needing to be eaten by sharks.

Bob
08-13-2015, 02:01 PM
Cull is one thing, extermination is another. Culling is removing undesirable members of the herd, typically. In the case of sharks, Which ones are undesirable? Only the ones that attack people? Per earlier entries on this thread, that would leave only three species of shark, the enormous sharks that typically are in deep water & feed only on krill & etc.

Extermination is hopeless - even if you could somehow find, ID, kill only the dangerous sharks in a timely & cost-efficient manner - sharks from nearby waters would simply migrate to less populated (by sharks) waters. Unless we're talking about exterminating sharks - sorry, dangerous sharks - everywhere they occur? That plainly won't happen.

& besides, by definition, surfing means man against the sea. As the sea includes sharks, mantas, barracudas, lampreys, Portuguese men-o-war & other stinging jellyfish, anemones, sea urchins, snakes & who-knows-how-many other opportunities to be stung, bitten, injured, drowned, suffer broken bones, sprains, contusions, death, etc. - give it a rest. If the surfers aren't up to the challenge of facing down nature, they should stay @ home & become bubble-boys 'n' girls.

It is not intellectual to those harmed by those dangerous sharks.

If there is a net that can provide safety to the surfers, why not use those?

southwest88
08-13-2015, 02:16 PM
It is not intellectual to those harmed by those dangerous sharks.

If there is a net that can provide safety to the surfers, why not use those?

Dude, surfing is about facing down the danger. The surfers presumably know that there are sharks out there, they know they may be attacked. It's about cojones, not cold-blooded assessments of ROI. If surfers were strictly rational, they'd be CPAs or something, & not risking nature red in fang & claw.

Sure, there are nets & such. See para 1 above - it's about the challenge, not about being safe. Namby-pambies don't surf, & that's the end of it. & even if Australia & the neighborhood businesses chipped in & provided nice safe clean beaches, life insurance, roving patrols & etc. @ an astronomical cost, I'm sure - there are still old-school surfers who will go beyond the safe areas, ignore warnings, & some of them will lose life & limb.

The technocratic World we live in is probably too safe - people test themselves by free climbing, surfing, bungee jumping, going bow hunting for large predators, trekking across wilderness areas with hardly any equipment, skydiving, going very fast in planes, cars, motorcycles & so on. Along the way, we will lose some of those people. That's kinda the attraction, the risk of injury/death, & nothing you can do will diminish the lure of danger.

Bob
08-13-2015, 02:34 PM
Dude, surfing is about facing down the danger. The surfers presumably know that there are sharks out there, they know they may be attacked. It's about cojones, not cold-blooded assessments of ROI. If surfers were strictly rational, they'd be CPAs or something, & not risking nature red in fang & claw.

Sure, there are nets & such. See para 1 above - it's about the challenge, not about being safe. Namby-pambies don't surf, & that's the end of it. & even if Australia & the neighborhood businesses chipped in & provided nice safe clean beaches, life insurance, roving patrols & etc. @ an astronomical cost, I'm sure - there are still old-school surfers who will go beyond the safe areas, ignore warnings, & some of them will lose life & limb.

The technocratic World we live in is probably too safe - people test themselves by free climbing, surfing, bungee jumping, going bow hunting for large predators, trekking across wilderness areas with hardly any equipment, skydiving, going very fast in planes, cars, motorcycles & so on. Along the way, we will lose some of those people. That's kinda the attraction, the risk of injury/death, & nothing you can do will diminish the lure of danger.

I never saw surfing as a just one type personality way to have fun.

I saw it as many types, including those surfers at Australia seeking safety in the water and implore some authority to kill some sharks.

Bob
08-13-2015, 02:37 PM
This surfing gig seems similar to riding fast motorcycles. The thrill of danger. Danger can be overcome to a large part. motocross racers mitigate injury using special equipment and the motorcycle is part of the safety equipment. A different breed rides the big bike class on oval tracks at much higher speeds. Seldom do they get killed or it would be front page news a lot.

Surfing can be safe so long as you don't face sharks trolling about hunting humans.

Chloe
08-13-2015, 03:27 PM
12353

This must be what Bob thinks is going on under the water

Peter1469
08-13-2015, 03:29 PM
Surfing is recreation. You don't kill sharks over recreation.

Act like a man and surf at your own risk and stop crying over sharks.

If I say it is safe to surf this beach, it is safe to surf this beach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jts9suWIDlU

Cthulhu
08-13-2015, 03:33 PM
Sharks don't typically actively look for humans to eat, this isn't a movie. There are all kinds of animals in the ocean that can and do cause more harm to people than sharks will ever cause. Where is the outrage though? Where is the call to cull? Fear makes people do a lot of irrational and irresponsible things.
On this point I agree. Stinging Jellyfish kill more people and are a greater threat.

I would wipe them out too if needed. I might be a genocidal Human Supremacist, but I am fair and equitable with it.

At the core I'm a live and let live kinda guy. But when things stop letting me and mine live - it is time for them to go.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

William
08-14-2015, 01:22 AM
This one is more deadly than any shark - the blue-ringed octopus

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZRs7ww2zLYJkWbgtMExec_YSp8sPRE 2Vbwd8ngLh0JUBohfOvWA


Depending on how much venom has been transferred into the wound, the onset of symptoms can be quite rapid. Within five to ten minutes, the victim begins to experience parasthesias and numbness, progressive muscular weakness and difficulty breathing and swallowing. Nausea and vomiting, visual disturbances and difficulty speaking may also occur. In severe cases, this is followed by flaccid paralysis and respiratory failure, leading to unconsciousness and death due to cerebral anoxia.

I heard people say the venom is deadly but you die of a heart attack from the pain before the poison kills you. :shocked:

Redrose
08-14-2015, 01:54 AM
This one is more deadly than any shark - the blue-ringed octopus

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZRs7ww2zLYJkWbgtMExec_YSp8sPRE 2Vbwd8ngLh0JUBohfOvWA



I heard people say the venom is deadly but you die of a heart attack from the pain before the poison kills you. :shocked:


That nasty little creature is one of many reasons I no longer go in the water. The way I look at it, if God meant us to be in the water, we'd have gills. :grin:

Redrose
08-14-2015, 02:04 AM
We were crossing a small bridge near Sanibel Island in Florida, and you could see swimmers enjoying the water. Not 20 feet from them were several good sized sharks, judging from their size compared to the adults swimming, they were 8-9 feet long. Apparently the swimmers were not aware of the sharks swimming just below the surface only yards away.

Years earlier I flew in a small plane over Pine Island in Florida, there were dozens of sharks just 100' off shore. Swimmers were there too, totally unaware what was swimming close by. Pine Island is shallow, about 2-3 feet for about 50-60' off shore. Too close to the sharks. My kids were in that water just days before.

Captain Obvious
08-15-2015, 07:25 PM
This one is more deadly than any shark - the blue-ringed octopus

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZRs7ww2zLYJkWbgtMExec_YSp8sPRE 2Vbwd8ngLh0JUBohfOvWA



I heard people say the venom is deadly but you die of a heart attack from the pain before the poison kills you. :shocked:

That color pattern says "come at me bro"

Howey
08-15-2015, 07:45 PM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

I have a problem with killing animals just because they bother us, particularly when the truth is we're bothering them. Just recently our great State of Florida has started issuing permits to kill black bears. Ridiculous.

valley ranch
09-30-2015, 08:25 PM
I don't think they want to kill all the man eating sharks, just the ones that are right there. When diving I always kept sharks in mind, here and in Australia.
I admit to being biased, I pick human over the shark in any area at all times.
The same thing goes for Bacteria, I don't care if they were here first and this is their place, if they kill human or his animal, kill them.

Like jambo the great said in this thread a while back turn loose the laughing porpoise or dolphins, well, you know what I mean.

That goes for anything that kills baby humans as well.

southwest88
10-01-2015, 09:26 AM
I don't think they want to kill all the man eating sharks, just the ones that are right there. When diving I always kept sharks in mind, here and in Australia.
I admit to being biased, I pick human over the shark in any area at all times.
The same thing goes for Bacteria, I don't care if they were here first and this is their place, if they kill human or his animal, kill them.

...


Even if you could find, ID & kill only the bad sharks, that would simply leave a niche open in the local fauna. Which would be filled - either other sharks would migrate in (most likely) & eventually take over the open territory, or something else would move in & take over that niche. As the environment becomes tougher & more demanding, the predators that fill those slots have to become tougher & more aggressive. So it's not clear that eradicating the sharks would be a good thing, in the end.

As for bacteria, we simply can't kill them all. Higher organisms encapsulate various bacteria - as part of our digestion & energy production processes. In fact, there's a lot of medical/biological interest in human microfauna just recently, & their relationship to general health, immune system, digestive system problems. See

Missing microbes : how the overuse of antibiotics is fueling our modern plagues / Martin J. Blaser, MD. c 2014, Henry Holt

Subjects

Antibiotics. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Antibiotics -- Effectiveness. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)
Drug resistance in microorganisms. (http://javascript<strong></strong>:;)

Notes


Modern plagues -- Our microbial planet -- The human microbiome -- The rise of pathogens -- The wonder drugs -- The overuse of antibiotics -- The modern farmer -- Mother and child -- A forgotten world -- Heartburn -- Trouble breathing -- Taller -- --and fatter -- Modern plagues revisited -- Antibiotic winter -- Solutions.

Summary


"A critically important and startling look at the harmful effects of overusing antibiotics, from the field's leading expert. Tracing one scientist's journey toward understanding the crucial importance of the microbiome, this revolutionary book will take readers to the forefront of trail-blazing research while revealing the damage that overuse of antibiotics is doing to our health: contributing to the rise of obesity, asthma, diabetes, and certain forms of cancer. In Missing Microbes, Dr. Martin Blaser invites us into the wilds of the human microbiome where for hundreds of thousands of years bacterial and human cells have existed in a peaceful symbiosis that is responsible for the health and equilibrium of our body. Now, this invisible eden is being irrevocably damaged by some of our most revered medical advances--antibiotics--threatening the extinction of our irreplaceable microbes with terrible health consequences. Taking us into both the lab and deep into the fields where these troubling effects can be witnessed firsthand, Blaser not only provides cutting edge evidence for the adverse effects of antibiotics, he tells us what we can do to avoid even more catastrophic health problems in the future. "-- Provided by publisher.

Length 273 pages : index & bibliographical references

(My emphasis - Links are only for information)

There are several general-interest books out & coming out on this topic. Very interesting.

Cthulhu
10-02-2015, 07:54 AM
Or, swim somewhere else - that's their home! :smiley:
I suppose it is time for me to say that I do not answer to beasts.

And surfers aren't scuba diving and competing for the sharks food source or mating grounds.

Even scuba divers aren't taking food off the shark's table.

So when they begin to start snacking on people they need to become shark fin soup.

/human supremacy.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

William
10-02-2015, 10:05 AM
I suppose it is time for me to say that I do not answer to beasts.

And surfers aren't scuba diving and competing for the sharks food source or mating grounds.

Even scuba divers aren't taking food off the shark's table.

So when they begin to start snacking on people they need to become shark fin soup.

/human supremacy.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

I guess we're all animals of one sort or another, and sharks only snack on people when they mistake them for food (a surfer in a shiny black wet suit dangling off a surf board looks a lot like a seal from below the water). There's loads of beaches protected by shark nets, but if surfers insist on surfing where there aren't any, I guess they're asking to become shark snacks.

And neway how do you pick the shark that ate someone after it has happened? Do you think they hang about waiting to give their names to the beach inspectors? :grin:

Cthulhu
10-02-2015, 02:13 PM
I guess we're all animals of one sort or another, and sharks only snack on people when they mistake them for food (a surfer in a shiny black wet suit dangling off a surf board looks a lot like a seal from below the water). There's loads of beaches protected by shark nets, but if surfers insist on surfing where there aren't any, I guess they're asking to become shark snacks.

Humans are not animals. The comparison to our biology is impressive. But it is our mental and spiritual faculties that sets us in an entirely different league.



And neway how do you pick the shark that ate someone after it has happened? Do you think they hang about waiting to give their names to the beach inspectors? :grin:

Most creatures are creatures of habit. Eradicate all the suspect creatures in a given area. Odds are you might get the right one. Either way it really doesn't matter.

If my kid got attacked by a shark, I would gleefully go fishing with dynamite and quarts of blood.

Ecosystem be damned.

Common Sense
10-02-2015, 02:20 PM
Humans are indeed animals.

donttread
10-04-2015, 10:29 AM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

Thanks to the Discovery Channel many Americans cross Australia off the "to visit list" because you have so many critters that can kill . Tiny Octopus, Jellyfish, sharks, all kinds of deadly snakes , even spiders. From a Chamber of Commerce point of view culling the sharks couldn't hurt.

Peter1469
10-04-2015, 10:31 AM
Thanks to the Discovery Channel many Americans cross Australia off the "to visit list" because you have so many critters that can kill . Tiny Octopus, Jellyfish, sharks, all kinds of deadly snakes , even spiders. From a Chamber of Commerce point of view culling the sharks couldn't hurt.

Don't forget the crocks that will take you if you fall asleep at the beach.

Truth Detector
10-04-2015, 10:32 AM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

I didn't see ANYTHING in your link to indicate "culling sharks."

William
10-04-2015, 09:06 PM
I didn't see ANYTHING in your link to indicate "culling sharks."

That's cos the link is updated with current news on the subject - they talked about a shark cull back when I posted the link.

PolWatch
10-05-2015, 06:48 AM
Don't forget the crocks that will take you if you fall asleep at the beach.

buncha wusses! We have mosquitoes that will haul ya off in the swamp....even the alligators are askeered of 'em! :grin:

Green Arrow
10-05-2015, 09:35 AM
Humans are not animals. The comparison to our biology is impressive. But it is our mental and spiritual faculties that sets us in an entirely different league.

Most creatures are creatures of habit. Eradicate all the suspect creatures in a given area. Odds are you might get the right one. Either way it really doesn't matter.

If my kid got attacked by a shark, I would gleefully go fishing with dynamite and quarts of blood.

Ecosystem be damned.

And with that attitude, you'll end up doing more harm to your family than the shark.

Cthulhu
10-07-2015, 07:10 PM
And with that attitude, you'll end up doing more harm to your family than the shark.
How is shark bombing going to affect me in the slightest?

I get the whole trickle down thing, but that is a long reach.

I suspect fish and game would be the culprit harming my family and I.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

southwest88
10-07-2015, 07:58 PM
How is shark bombing going to affect me in the slightest?

...


I think it's called the tragedy of the commons. Just as marksmen once shot herds of buffalo from trains in the US Plains states, & merely harvested the pelts & maybe the tongues - or even just left everything there to rot. (The point was to deny the Plains Native Peoples of their staple food & raw materials supply, clear the plains for more railroads & towns & ranches & farms, etc., keep the tracks clear of animals & other obstructions.)

Fish & seafood catches are declining, food stocks on land & sea are under increasing pressure, corals (fish hatcheries, & other sea life) are succumbing to temperature or minute chemical changes in the water. One of our problems is that we're not sure where the tipping-points are - the point that detrimental changes (from humanity's POV) become a cascade of changes that simply get worse & worse.

With a better understanding of the biological systems we're working with, we can apply minimally invasive ameliorative techniques to the fallout of technological civilization upon the land & water. If we put off action, it will take increasingly heroic efforts to cope with shorter timeframes, & this concentration of effort will increase the possibility of errors. Better to start small & ramp up, & build in time to observe & correct unwanted side effects. But we need to move more & faster ...

Cthulhu
10-07-2015, 11:41 PM
I think it's called the tragedy of the commons. Just as marksmen once shot herds of buffalo from trains in the US Plains states, & merely harvested the pelts & maybe the tongues - or even just left everything there to rot. (The point was to deny the Plains Native Peoples of their staple food & raw materials supply, clear the plains for more railroads & towns & ranches & farms, etc., keep the tracks clear of animals & other obstructions.)

Fish & seafood catches are declining, food stocks on land & sea are under increasing pressure, corals (fish hatcheries, & other sea life) are succumbing to temperature or minute chemical changes in the water. One of our problems is that we're not sure where the tipping-points are - the point that detrimental changes (from humanity's POV) become a cascade of changes that simply get worse & worse.

With a better understanding of the biological systems we're working with, we can apply minimally invasive ameliorative techniques to the fallout of technological civilization upon the land & water. If we put off action, it will take increasingly heroic efforts to cope with shorter timeframes, & this concentration of effort will increase the possibility of errors. Better to start small & ramp up, & build in time to observe & correct unwanted side effects. But we need to move more & faster ...
Sounds like sharks had better stop snacking on the world's apex predator then.

Because that is what humans do - overreact. For good and for I'll.

Thing is that nature doesn't govern itself very well. Humans do for the most part.

The only thing governing animals is violence and starvation essentially. I suppose you could throw in disease as well.

Humans are the only creatures I know of that can and do consciously govern themselves and other organisms. This, among other traits is what separates us from beasts.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Chloe
10-08-2015, 03:55 AM
Sounds like sharks had better stop snacking on the world's apex predator then.

Because that is what humans do - overreact. For good and for I'll.

Thing is that nature doesn't govern itself very well. Humans do for the most part.

The only thing governing animals is violence and starvation essentially. I suppose you could throw in disease as well.

Humans are the only creatures I know of that can and do consciously govern themselves and other organisms. This, among other traits is what separates us from beasts.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

I've never known sharks or any other predator to wage war, commit genocides, destroy ecosystems for monetary gain, enslave their own species, displace wildlife AND people, arbitrarily execute, burn down a home or business for fun, and in the case of governing, favor those with more rectangular pieces of paper in their pockets instead of doing the right thing for the population. Yeah, we aren't beastly at all in comparison to the shark that is looking for one meal at a time to survive and is naturally keeping an ecosystem in harmony while we govern ourselves in such irresponsible and cruel ways.

PolWatch
10-08-2015, 06:43 AM
Should we all just ignore something because we don't see how it will effect us personally? We should stand by and allow an entire species to be destroyed because we are not directly involved? That logic is really kinda short-sighted and selfish.

Crepitus
10-08-2015, 07:26 AM
Most sharks won't bother a human. But my deal is why force a great white to make a choice? Me or the next swimmer. We have very cold water here. I have not herd of barracuda's attacking swimmers.
Actually a more common occurrence than shark attacks. Just less sensationalized.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TTABF0gGkw

Cthulhu
10-08-2015, 08:27 AM
Should we all just ignore something because we don't see how it will effect us personally? We should stand by and allow an entire species to be destroyed because we are not directly involved? That logic is really kinda short-sighted and selfish.
I agree, but those are the results when you really pinch someone's nerves. They get a little wonky and do crazy stuff. Thankfully it is typically of limited scope and duration.

Things tend to balance themselves out in time.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Cthulhu
10-08-2015, 08:33 AM
I've never known sharks or any other predator to wage war, commit genocides, destroy ecosystems for monetary gain, enslave their own species, displace wildlife AND people, arbitrarily execute, burn down a home or business for fun, and in the case of governing, favor those with more rectangular pieces of paper in their pockets instead of doing the right thing for the population. Yeah, we aren't beastly at all in comparison to the shark that is looking for one meal at a time to survive and is naturally keeping an ecosystem in harmony while we govern ourselves in such irresponsible and cruel ways.
You are ignoring the bigger picture. Sure humans are capable of horrid things. But that is typically the minority in almost every circumstance. Usually short lived as well.

However you do err in your statement. Lions, hyenas, various other primates to war against each other and murder each other. With much greater frequency than humans do.

Case in point : new male primate moves in, wins the alpha seat. Guess what he does next? Murders all the babies. Same thing with lions and a host of other animals.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Crepitus
10-08-2015, 10:09 AM
I've never known sharks or any other predator to wage war, commit genocides, destroy ecosystems for monetary gain, enslave their own species, displace wildlife AND people, arbitrarily execute, burn down a home or business for fun, and in the case of governing, favor those with more rectangular pieces of paper in their pockets instead of doing the right thing for the population. Yeah, we aren't beastly at all in comparison to the shark that is looking for one meal at a time to survive and is naturally keeping an ecosystem in harmony while we govern ourselves in such irresponsible and cruel ways.

Wow, sharks are better people than people!

Chloe
10-08-2015, 10:37 AM
You are ignoring the bigger picture. Sure humans are capable of horrid things. But that is typically the minority in almost every circumstance. Usually short lived as well.

However you do err in your statement. Lions, hyenas, various other primates to war against each other and murder each other. With much greater frequency than humans do.

Case in point : new male primate moves in, wins the alpha seat. Guess what he does next? Murders all the babies. Same thing with lions and a host of other animals.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Lions, hyenas, primates and other animals live in the true real world while humans (and pets and zoos if you include them) live in a manufactured world. The actions taken in the wild are part of the way nature balances itself and sustains a healthy ecosystem. It's cruel from the outside looking in but is far more natural and real than what we experience. The violence that our species perpetrates is on a far greater scale in comparison and sense we are separate from the natural world it makes our atrocities that much more horrific in my opinion since for us we create and allow the structures of our own environment to live and die in. A lion killing the cubs of a rival male ensures a stronger bloodline in that ecosystem and can in affect maintain a stronger balance between predator and prey in the wild. A person committing mass murder for political gain or money or power or property is not being done as a balancing act in nature but out of want or hate.

Chloe
10-08-2015, 10:39 AM
Wow, sharks are better people than people!

Not better or worse, but they do far more towards the balance and health of nature and doing it in a truly natural way than our species does. We have the ability to be more engaged in the natural world but due to our detachment from the natural world we typically see nature in a very unnatural way in my opinion.

Chloe
10-08-2015, 10:43 AM
Oh and FYI I'm not hating on humans nor am I a human hater by saying what I'm saying. I'm simply acknowledging the truth about our interactions and engagement with nature. Our species has flaws just like each of us has flaws but unless you recognize those flaws and try to fix them then nothing will ever change. Some flaws you can't change, some flaws are worth owning, but the flaw of our species is based in selfishness and irresponsibility, and those need to be addressed and fixed.

southwest88
10-08-2015, 12:07 PM
...

And surfers aren't scuba diving and competing for the sharks food source or mating grounds.

Even scuba divers aren't taking food off the shark's table.

So when they begin to start snacking on people they need to become shark fin soup.

/human supremacy.

...


So I ran down some numbers:

See http://surftherenow.com/2008/05/13/shark-attack-risk-of-death/

Various causes of death are noted, with link to the International Shark Attack File.





Disease/accident cause death
Lifetime death risk


Heart disease
1 in 5


Cancer
1 in 7


Shark attack
1 in 3,748,067













(My emphasis - As of May 2008. See URL for yearly numbers & other risks, comments, etc.)

So - sharks are ancient fish. As such, they merit some respect - they've outlived the dinosaurs, after all, which had things pretty much their own way for ages. & one day a big asteroid came in & poof! went the age of dinosaurs. I'm sure there's a lesson there somewhere.

Shark attacks make the news - graphic pix, gore, ambulances & paramedics. But in terms of effectiveness, it would be much more to the point to work on preventing heart disease &/or cancer. The people who consistently surf, swim etc. beyond the safe beach areas assume their risks - or perhaps they know how rare shark attacks are, statistically.

Cthulhu
10-08-2015, 08:51 PM
I'm sorry but I disagree. Lions, hyenas, primates and other animals live in the true real world while humans (and pets and zoos if you include them) live in a manufactured world. The actions taken in the wild are part of the way nature balances itself and sustains a healthy ecosystem. It's cruel from the outside looking in but is far more natural and real than what we experience. The violence that our species perpetrates is on a far greater scale in comparison and sense we are separate from the natural world it makes our atrocities that much more horrific in my opinion since for us we create and allow the structures of our own environment to live and die in. A lion killing the cubs of a rival male ensures a stronger bloodline in that ecosystem and can in affect maintain a stronger balance between predator and prey in the wild. A person committing mass murder for political gain or money or power or property is not being done as a balancing act in nature but out of want or hate.
Slight correction. Killing cubs does not yield a stronger bloodline. It merely snuffs out a competing one.

Just because something may be natural does not mean it is wholesome and good.

We're I to behave as a lion in the natural setting regarding offspring, I would be out porking like 15 women, and I would have to kill my oldest son because I didn't sire him.

Nah, I think I'll stick with what is best. Lions are cool, but not worthy of emulation.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

southwest88
10-09-2015, 10:57 AM
One of the reasons to hold off on seriously reducing or eliminating species is that we simply don't know enough about how all these animals or plants interact & their exact function in environment. Case in point - see http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/science/why-elephants-get-less-cancer.html?_r=0

"In 1977, a University of Oxford statistician named Richard Peto pointed out a simple yet puzzling biological fact: We humans should have a lot more cancer (http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/cancer/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) than mice, but we don’t.

"Dr. Peto’s argument was beguilingly simple. Every time a cell divides, there’s a small chance it will gain a mutation that speeds its growth. Cells that accumulate several of these mutations may become cancerous. The bigger an animal is, the more cells it has, and the longer an animal lives, the more times its cells divide. We humans undergo about 10,000 times as many cell divisions as mice — and thus should be far more likely to get cancer.

"Yet humans and mice have roughly the same lifetime risk of cancer, a circumstance that has come to be known as Peto’s paradox.

"A number of scientists have speculated that large, long-lived animals must evolve extra cancer-fighting weapons. And if that’s true, they reason, then the biggest, longest-lived animals should have an especially big arsenal. Otherwise, these species would go extinct."

(My emphasis - the study centers on elephants, of course. More detail @ the URL.)

& elephants are under increasing pressure from people - for their tusks, for their meat, & likely for their territory (to grow human crops). Lately, elephants have been poisoned in Africa - presumably to clear them off the land. There's a thread here on a Chinese woman (I think) who has been apprehended - she was @ the center of a massive ivory poaching operation in Africa & China.

It would be fairly ironic if a cure for cancer were lost because we just needed that last bit of savannah for our crops.

Cthulhu
10-10-2015, 02:36 AM
One of the reasons to hold off on seriously reducing or eliminating species is that we simply don't know enough about how all these animals or plants interact & their exact function in environment. Case in point - see http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/science/why-elephants-get-less-cancer.html?_r=0

"In 1977, a University of Oxford statistician named Richard Peto pointed out a simple yet puzzling biological fact: We humans should have a lot more cancer (http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/cancer/overview.html?inline=nyt-classifier) than mice, but we don’t.

"Dr. Peto’s argument was beguilingly simple. Every time a cell divides, there’s a small chance it will gain a mutation that speeds its growth. Cells that accumulate several of these mutations may become cancerous. The bigger an animal is, the more cells it has, and the longer an animal lives, the more times its cells divide. We humans undergo about 10,000 times as many cell divisions as mice — and thus should be far more likely to get cancer.

"Yet humans and mice have roughly the same lifetime risk of cancer, a circumstance that has come to be known as Peto’s paradox.

"A number of scientists have speculated that large, long-lived animals must evolve extra cancer-fighting weapons. And if that’s true, they reason, then the biggest, longest-lived animals should have an especially big arsenal. Otherwise, these species would go extinct."

(My emphasis - the study centers on elephants, of course. More detail @ the URL.)

& elephants are under increasing pressure from people - for their tusks, for their meat, & likely for their territory (to grow human crops). Lately, elephants have been poisoned in Africa - presumably to clear them off the land. There's a thread here on a Chinese woman (I think) who has been apprehended - she was @ the center of a massive ivory poaching operation in Africa & China.

It would be fairly ironic if a cure for cancer were lost because we just needed that last bit of savannah for our crops.
There will be no cure for cancer. At least not while it is way more profitable to treat it.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

southwest88
10-10-2015, 10:50 AM
There will be no cure for cancer. At least not while it is way more profitable to treat it.

...


Possibly true. & yet, if we do actually achieve a madman's ambition to clear the planet of all non-edible lifeforms, it will only be a little while before we all succumb to hubris - or some other stand-in.

Meanwhile, a pleasure to meet a nihilist. I'd often wondered ..

Bob
10-10-2015, 11:13 AM
Looks like most Australians agree with you and me. :smiley:


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-01/shark-protests-wa-catch-and-kill-perth/5232480


http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/01/thousands-protest-against-wa-shark-cull-policy




http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/thousands-protest-at-manly-beach-over-wa-shark-cull-20140201-31tiy.html



http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72079000/jpg/_72079382_72079381.jpg

And here I thought Australia was perfection in action. Who knew?

Cthulhu
10-10-2015, 11:27 AM
Possibly true. & yet, if we do actually achieve a madman's ambition to clear the planet of all non-edible lifeforms, it will only be a little while before we all succumb to hubris - or some other stand-in.

Meanwhile, a pleasure to meet a nihilist. I'd often wondered ..
Lol.

I'm charmed.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

valley ranch
11-03-2015, 05:40 PM
Cull them. Cull any that are dangerous to human and those that clear fish from around piers. There can be too many sharks and too many of the certain type of shark. There are many types some never attack human. Some eat only off the bottom.

William
11-04-2015, 12:04 AM
And here I thought Australia was perfection in action. Who knew?

Lol! Aussies are as dumb as anyone else, and some are a lot dumber. :laugh:

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:04 PM
I just got back from a two week liveaboard SCUBA diving trip in Belize. Did a great shark dive. They weren't aggressive at all

maineman
12-08-2015, 11:08 PM
I just got back from a two week liveaboard SCUBA diving trip in Belize. Did a great shark dive. They weren't aggressive at all

damn the bad luck. humanity's loss.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:10 PM
damn the bad luck. humanity's loss.

they'd probably like your old fat ass

maineman
12-08-2015, 11:12 PM
they'd probably like your old fat ass

not that old, and not at all fat.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:13 PM
not that old, and not at all fat.

If you say so......

maineman
12-08-2015, 11:14 PM
If you say so......

I do... and you have no knowledge to show otherwise.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:16 PM
You follow me everywhere. What's up with that?

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:16 PM
I do... and you have no knowledge to show otherwise.

I don't believe anything you say.

Private Pickle
12-08-2015, 11:24 PM
Surfers and businesses on the NSW North Coast are calling for sharks to be culled after some shark attacks and sightings. Businesses specially, say people are not holidaying there so much, and they are losing money.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/shark

Do you think it's OK to kill these awesome creatures, just so we can go surfing, and so businesses can make more money?

I don't - if we go into their world, we should accept the danger. I love surfing (though I'm not that good at board surfing) but I don't want to see anything die just cos I want to play in the water.

What do you think?

Depends on the type of shark. Rarity. Etc.

By the way. This is our world not their world.

William
12-08-2015, 11:27 PM
Depends on the type of shark. Rarity. Etc.

By the way. This is our world not their world.

LOL! Do you live and breathe underwater?

If not, it's their world - we are just another species of animal - nothing special, we just developed a bit further. :grin:

Green Arrow
12-08-2015, 11:32 PM
Depends on the type of shark. Rarity. Etc.

By the way. This is our world not their world.

If we don't take care of them and allow them to live as nature intended, our world will no longer be habitable.

Ravens Fan
12-08-2015, 11:35 PM
I just got back from a two week liveaboard SCUBA diving trip in Belize. Did a great shark dive. They weren't aggressive at all

Any pics? Sounds like fun, not sure I would do it though.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:38 PM
LOL! Do you live and breathe underwater?

If not, it's their world - we are just another species of animal - nothing special, we just developed a bit further. :grin:

Humans are able to co-exist with the rest of the life nature placed on earth

William
12-08-2015, 11:43 PM
Humans are able to co-exist with the rest of the life nature placed on earth

I totally agree! But co-existing is different from killing other creatures just cos we want to play in their natural environment. I love surfing, but I don't have to surf where there are lots of sharks, and I don't have the right to kill any creatures just cos I want to play in the water.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:46 PM
Any pics? Sounds like fun, not sure I would do it though.

No pics. My only underwater camera is an older film camera. I retired it.

The sharks acted like they didn't even notice our presence. Black tip reef sharks six to eight feet long. I'm going to do it again in April.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:49 PM
I totally agree! But co-existing is different from killing other creatures just cos we want to play in their natural environment. I love surfing, but I don't have to surf where there are lots of sharks, and I don't have the right to kill any creatures just cos I want to play in the water.

We do have the right to protect ourselves though. We should not kill sharks just for the thrill of killing sharks, but there's nothing wrong with protecting ourselves while we are enjoying our recreational activities

maineman
12-08-2015, 11:53 PM
I don't believe anything you say.

and you think that I somehow care about that? why?

William
12-08-2015, 11:53 PM
We do have the right to protect ourselves though. We should not kill sharks just for the thrill of killing sharks, but there's nothing wrong with protecting ourselves while we are enjoying our recreational activities

I agree that we have the right to protect ourselves, but we do not have the right to recreational activities that mean killing other creatures not for food. Like I said - surf somewhere else. :smiley:

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:55 PM
and you think that I somehow care about that? why?

You must care because you follow me around everywhere nipping at my ankles.

Tahuyaman
12-08-2015, 11:56 PM
I agree that we have the right to protect ourselves, but we do not have the right to recreational activities that mean killing other creatures not for food. Like I said - surf somewhere else. :smiley:

I disagree.

maineman
12-08-2015, 11:56 PM
You must care because you follow me around everywhere nipping at my ankles.

not so. We have differing views on similar topics. We are bound to cross paths.

Tahuyaman
12-09-2015, 12:00 AM
not so. We have differing views on similar topics. We are bound to cross paths. You are denying that you follow me from thread to thread? Why did you wait to come into this thread until after I made my contribution?

William
12-09-2015, 12:06 AM
I disagree.

Lol, if we agreed on everything, there would be no point in this place! :laugh:

Tahuyaman
12-09-2015, 12:08 AM
Lol, if we agreed on everything, there would be no point in this place! :laugh:

Actually, some people here prefer total agreement. With them, disagreement is hateful.

William
12-09-2015, 12:16 AM
Actually, some people here prefer total agreement. With them, disagreement is hateful.

Lol, reminds me of an old saying by Robert Owen my uncle often quotes - :laugh:

"All the world is strange save me and thee - and even thou art a little queer.'

(I think 'a little queer' didn't mean the same thing in 1828, as it can mean today. :grin:)

maineman
12-09-2015, 12:26 AM
You are denying that you follow me from thread to thread? Why did you wait to come into this thread until after I made my contribution?

I never even saw this shark thread until I logged on this evening. I always go to the last post and, if it interests me, I either comment, or work my way backwards. Yours was the post. I felt compelled to reply. Especially when you threw such a softball. lol

Tahuyaman
12-09-2015, 12:39 AM
I never even saw this shark thread until I logged on this evening. I always go to the last post and, if it interests me, I either comment, or work my way backwards. Yours was the post. I felt compelled to reply. Especially when you threw such a softball. lol

You are afraid to admit that you follow me around. This thread was created months ago. I resurrected it this afternoon and all of a sudden you appear.

maineman
12-09-2015, 01:25 AM
You are afraid to admit that you follow me around. This thread was created months ago. I resurrected it this afternoon and all of a sudden you appear.
Wow...you really take yourself a bit too seriously. The first time I saw this thread, I posted in it. Your presence hadnothing to do with it. What a ridiculous, preening egomaniac you are! Get over yourself.
:rofl:

Tahuyaman
12-09-2015, 01:28 AM
Wow...you really take yourself a bit too seriously....

Not at all, but you sure seem to follow me around a lot. Why is that?

You didn't post a single comment n this thread until I resurrected it today.

maineman
12-09-2015, 01:42 AM
Not at all, but you sure seem to follow me around a lot. Why is that?

You didn't post a single comment n this thread until I resurrected it today.
What part of "this was the first time I had seen this thread" did you not understand the first time?

Tahuyaman
12-09-2015, 01:45 AM
What part of "this was the first time I had seen this thread" did you not understand the first time?

You saw it for the first time because you are following me around nipping at my ankles.

If you weren't stalking me, you still wouldn't have seen this months old thread I resurrected.

Private Pickle
12-09-2015, 10:51 AM
LOL! Do you live and breathe underwater?

If not, it's their world - we are just another species of animal - nothing special, we just developed a bit further. :grin:

Right. Young people tend to believe this type of stuff. But while we don't live under water we can breathe under water. The only species to transcend our boundaries and all...

Private Pickle
12-09-2015, 10:52 AM
If we don't take care of them and allow them to live as nature intended, our world will no longer be habitable.

This is a macro ideal. Not a micro ideal.

southwest88
12-09-2015, 12:40 PM
Of course we (the West?) should cull sharks. & seeing as how the biologists & ichthyologists & such aren't going to sanction any such thing, or will want a long baseline study in order to make a recommendation - & seeing as how the human wisdom on whether or not to do such a thing is sorely lacking - I propose:

We hire DisneyCorp to manufacture an animatronic body & IBM (or somebody similar - maybe just load Watson up with encyclopedia entries & representative samples of writing?) to devise an artificial personality to mimic as closely as possible the ethical reasoning of Mohandas Gandhi, the late inspiration for the withdrawal of the UK from India. Then put the question to him, & follow his advice.

Disney will have to be paid. IBM (or whoever) might do it just for the research involved, & to see if the simulation runs true.

Tahuyaman
12-09-2015, 01:48 PM
Right. Young people tend to believe this type of stuff. But while we don't live under water we can breathe under water. The only species to transcend our boundaries and all...


Please tellme when you find a dolphin pedaling a bicycle down the street, or a manatee on a motorcycle.