The solution to poverty.

[OGIS]

If You’re Poor, Stop Being Poor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhW7JW9HHds

[Captain Obvious]

I agree with him.

There is no reason unless one is an idiot or handicapped, there is no reason to be poor.

Get off your fucking ass and go make something of yourself.

This society sucks, too many assholes, idiots and parasites.

[Captain Obvious]

We should adopt Logans Run mentality, except we don't kill people over 40, we kill people living below the poverty threshold.

Grind them up and use them for biofuels.

[nathanbforrest45]

We should adopt Logans Run mentality, except we don't kill people over 40, we kill people living below the poverty threshold.

Grind them up and use them for biofuels.


Yes, don't eat them, Soylent Green taste like cardboard and makes you shit the bed.

[Cigar]

:grin:

[Ravens Fan]

We should adopt Logans Run mentality, except we don't kill people over 40, we kill people living below the poverty threshold.

Grind them up and use them for biofuels.

Multi-tasking with that wood chipper? :laugh:

[Mac-7]

In America only stupid people who fail to take advantage of their opportunities are poor for very long.

[Captain Obvious]

So my car gets 20mph(omeless dude).

Think about it, it would be their only contribution to society if they would provide fuel for my car to get me back and forth to work where I am actually societally productive.

[OGIS]

Multi-tasking with that wood chipper? :laugh:

Somebody needs to look in his crawl space.

[Cigar]

In America only stupid people who fail to take advantage of their opportunities are poor for very long.

Keyword(s) : advantage , opportunities

[Ravens Fan]

Somebody needs to look in his crawl space.

What?

[OGIS]

What?

Think about it.

[Ravens Fan]

Think about it.

I did. I'm still not sure what your response meant. My post was humor aimed at Captain O, what was yours?

[Captain Obvious]

I did. I'm still not sure what your response meant. My post was humor aimed at Captain O, what was yours?

He wants to know where he can score some of that cheap gas.

[whatukno]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

[Captain Obvious]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

Sure, Dorothy...

[jimmyz]

What would we do with the millions of state and federal employees that would be out of a job with no poor people's paperwork to shuffle?

[whatukno]

Sure, Dorothy...

You don't think the government should break up these massive multinational corporations with a stranglehold on the economy? When these companies hit hard times, they are so large, they take down huge chunks of the economy. Breaking them up is the only solution so that small business has an opportunity to grow and innovate.

[nathanbforrest45]

Keyword(s) : advantage , opportunities


Are you an Affirmative Action recipient or did you earn your career by hard work?

Did Barack Hussian Obama gain his position by his own hard work or was he given the presidency because he was black.

OK, that's not a good example because that is exactly how he became president the first time.

[Captain Obvious]

You don't think the government should break up these massive multinational corporations with a stranglehold on the economy? When these companies hit hard times, they are so large, they take down huge chunks of the economy. Breaking them up is the only solution so that small business has an opportunity to grow and innovate.

Why would the government shit on it's dinner plate?

[nathanbforrest45]

You don't think the government should break up these massive multinational corporations with a stranglehold on the economy? When these companies hit hard times, they are so large, they take down huge chunks of the economy. Breaking them up is the only solution so that small business has an opportunity to grow and innovate.


The best way to break up the multinational is to end all restrictive laws against businesses. Monopolies can only exist by government intervention.

Jeez, even a cave man knows that.

[Howey]

If You’re Poor, Stop Being Poor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhW7JW9HHds


We should adopt Logans Run mentality, except we don't kill people over 40, we kill people living below the poverty threshold.

Grind them up and use them for biofuels.


In America only stupid people who fail to take advantage of their opportunities are poor for very long.

It's like 1932 all over again! Can we make them wear a red "P" around their necks? Deutschland Uber alles!

[Captain Obvious]

It's like 1932 all over again! Can we make them wear a red "P" around their necks? Deutschland Uber alles!

Welcome back, magicmike

[sachem]

Money.

[whatukno]

The best way to break up the multinational is to end all restrictive laws against businesses. Monopolies can only exist by government intervention.

Jeez, even a cave man knows that.

It's actually completely the opposite from what you just wrote.

[whatukno]

Why would the government shit on it's dinner plate?

Because with more small businesses competing for their share of the market, innovation happens, better practices occur, some companies will grow, some will fail. In the end, everyone benefits from more competition.

[Captain Obvious]

Because with more small businesses competing for their share of the market, innovation happens, better practices occur, some companies will grow, some will fail. In the end, everyone benefits from more competition.

Good luck with that, Dorothy...

[OGIS]

I did. I'm still not sure what your response meant. My post was humor aimed at Captain O, what was yours?

Allusion for searching for buried bodies. Lack of empathy (genetic or brought on by brain damage) is highly correlated with Presidents and politicians in general, serial killers, and famous business leaders.

[Chris]

Why would some work who get welfare not to? I mean, what's the incentive? And if they did try why then government would have to get out of the way. It doesn't take muh to buy a used car, insure it, and use it as a taxi, though a service like Uber, for instance, but the government regulates the industry and demands a fortune for taxi medallions.

[Mac-7]

Are you an Affirmative Action recipient or did you earn your career by hard work?



Cigar was given everything he has, including the red obamamobile, to make up for 500 years of slavery and Jim Crow.

He didn't have to do anything for it.

[donttread]

We should adopt Logans Run mentality, except we don't kill people over 40, we kill people living below the poverty threshold.

Grind them up and use them for biofuels.

Everything is relative and your plan would raise the poverty level until it included you

[Redrose]

If You’re Poor, Stop Being Poor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhW7JW9HHds


The solution to poverty.....work.

Example: My SIL, with a severe facial defect, only a high school education, 34 years old makes $160k+.

He started out as a car salesman and now has his own dealership. He's a hard worker, dedicated.

It can be done.

[Mac-7]

The solution to poverty.....work.

Example: My SIL, with a severe facial defect, only a high school education, 34 years old makes $160k+.

He started out as a car salesman and now has his own dealership. He's a hard worker, dedicated.

It can be done.

Poor people don't need jobs as long as they have obumer and the wipe-every-nose welfare state to take care of them.

But they are peeved that they don't collect $160K each year.

[Crepitus]

What would we do with the millions of state and federal employees that would be out of a job with no poor people's paperwork to shuffle?
It's a problem that solves itself. Pretty soon they are unemployed and living below the poverty level. More Gas!!

And then the business they all used to shop at go under for lack of sales, the owners go bankrupt and end up below the poverty level. More Gas!!

And then the companies that make the stuff those business used to sell are forced to close because there's no one to buy their products, employees laid off, management furloughed, everybody ends up below the poverty level. More Gas!!

I'm gonna stop now, but I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

[OGIS]

Why would some work who get welfare not to? I mean, what's the incentive? And if they did try why then government would have to get out of the way. It doesn't take muh to buy a used car, insure it, and use it as a taxi, though a service like Uber, for instance, but the government regulates the industry and demands a fortune for taxi medallions.

People who are stepped in the Puritan guilt-ethic view work as God's punishment for Original Sin. This is one of the reasons why they are so dead set against social welfare programs. So they will be puzzled by the following, and be unable to comprehend it.

Thought experiment:

Imagine a world where all of the actual necessities of life are free. Food, water, clothing, shelter, medical, education, access to the datanet. They cost nothing, because no one was paid wages to make them or do. They were made by ARP (Automation, Robots and Programs), none of which need to be paid a dime.

Oh yes, this is a snapshot of "utopia" and says little about the journey to get there. Until the ARP infrastructure is completed all the way up the supply chains to ultimate grown food, mined product, or stored energy, there will be (steadily decreasing) unit costs of infrastructure, raw materials, and processing energy. But those will also eventually disappear.

And yes, until the AIs begin self-programming, there will always be a tiny minimum of enormously well-paid technocrats. Those ridiculously large salaries, distributed over the entire economy-of-scale, will cost pennies per year per person.

So all your survival needs are met. in fact, you even get a small monthly "Heritage Payment" (paid equally to all citizens regardless of circumstances) calculated on the difference between the prior month's FARP production and prior month's actual usage.

The Heritage Payment will almost always be a positive number, because it is the nature of economy-of-scale industry to over-produce. Over-production = deflationary pressure. The Heritage Payment is, of course, printed money backed by nothing, which is inflationary. The two - deflation from overproduction (goods chasing dollars) and inflation from printing money (dollars chasing goods) - should zero. Meaning a stable money supply.

So, you're sitting on your fat a55 consuming free stuff, doing nothing, and getting paid to do it. You are bored out of your mind. What do you do?

(1) Well, you could continue to sit on your fat a55. But your still bored, and you have this trickle of Heritage Payment cash coming in each month, so maybe you will buy something from the vibrant, UNTAXED Private Enterprise Tier (PET) that has sprung up to meet the demand for - for example - something to eat other than the same bland but nutritious crap you get for free from home 3D printer. Or, again as just a consumer, you could spend your life playing online video games, made for pennies per unit in the PET sector and making some fabulously rich individuals in the process. And so forth. The point being, even as a slug-consumer you are making economic choices and rewarding other people with the energy and creativity to make stuff other than the samo-samo FARP crap.

(2) Or - now being freed from the necessity of working for a living at whatever job you can wrest from the jungle of other job seekers - you have the luxury of doing whatever you goddamned well please. Congratulations, you have now become a member in good standing of the PET sector.

You are a composer, or a writer, a playwright, artist or poet; a philosopher, a mystic, a business guru; an amateur or professional or eccentric scientist; an historian, an explorer; a theologian, a magician; a professional gamer; an inventor, an eldritch seeker or teacher of obscure minutiae of interest to almost no one else but yourself.

And you might even do it for nothing, just because you don't NEED any money and you just love doing it. And quite often, whatever that something is, is something that other people will eventually want to pay you money for.

How do you eliminate poverty? You keep hitting it in the head with FARP technology until it stops moving.

Here's the vision:
http://abcdunlimited.com/liberty/refs/aristotle.html
https://www.whywork.org/rethinking/w.../rawilson.html (https://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/rawilson.html)

[OGIS]

So my car gets 20mph(omeless dude).

Think about it, it would be their only contribution to society if they would provide fuel for my car to get me back and forth to work where I am actually societally productive.

Why must one be societally productive in order to justify one's existence?

[Private Pickle]

Why must one be societally productive in order to justify one's existence?

Wut?

[Chris]

People who are stepped in the Puritan guilt-ethic view work as God's punishment for Original Sin. This is one of the reasons why they are so dead set against social welfare programs. So they will be puzzled by the following, and be unable to comprehend it.

Thought experiment:

Imagine a world where all of the actual necessities of life are free. Food, water, clothing, shelter, medical, education, access to the datanet. They cost nothing, because no one was paid wages to make them or do. They were made by ARP (Automation, Robots and Programs), none of which need to be paid a dime.

Oh yes, this is a snapshot of "utopia" and says little about the journey to get there. Until the ARP infrastructure is completed all the way up the supply chains to ultimate grown food, mined product, or stored energy, there will be (steadily decreasing) unit costs of infrastructure, raw materials, and processing energy. But those will also eventually disappear.

And yes, until the AIs begin self-programming, there will always be a tiny minimum of enormously well-paid technocrats. Those ridiculously large salaries, distributed over the entire economy-of-scale, will cost pennies per year per person.

So all your survival needs are met. in fact, you even get a small monthly "Heritage Payment" (paid equally to all citizens regardless of circumstances) calculated on the difference between the prior month's FARP production and prior month's actual usage.

The Heritage Payment will almost always be a positive number, because it is the nature of economy-of-scale industry to over-produce. Over-production = deflationary pressure. The Heritage Payment is, of course, printed money backed by nothing, which is inflationary. The two - deflation from overproduction (goods chasing dollars) and inflation from printing money (dollars chasing goods) - should zero. Meaning a stable money supply.

So, you're sitting on your fat a55 consuming free stuff, doing nothing, and getting paid to do it. You are bored out of your mind. What do you do?

(1) Well, you could continue to sit on your fat a55. But your still bored, and you have this trickle of Heritage Payment cash coming in each month, so maybe you will buy something from the vibrant, UNTAXED Private Enterprise Tier (PET) that has sprung up to meet the demand for - for example - something to eat other than the same bland but nutritious crap you get for free from home 3D printer. Or, again as just a consumer, you could spend your life playing online video games, made for pennies per unit in the PET sector and making some fabulously rich individuals in the process. And so forth. The point being, even as a slug-consumer you are making economic choices and rewarding other people with the energy and creativity to make stuff other than the samo-samo FARP crap.

(2) Or - now being freed from the necessity of working for a living at whatever job you can wrest from the jungle of other job seekers - you have the luxury of doing whatever you goddamned well please. Congratulations, you have now become a member in good standing of the PET sector.

You are a composer, or a writer, a playwright, artist or poet; a philosopher, a mystic, a business guru; an amateur or professional or eccentric scientist; an historian, an explorer; a theologian, a magician; a professional gamer; an inventor, an eldritch seeker or teacher of obscure minutiae of interest to almost no one else but yourself.

And you might even do it for nothing, just because you don't NEED any money and you just love doing it. And quite often, whatever that something is, is something that other people will eventually want to pay you money for.

How do you eliminate poverty? You keep hitting it in the head with FARP technology until it stops moving.

Here's the vision:
http://abcdunlimited.com/liberty/refs/aristotle.html
https://www.whywork.org/rethinking/w.../rawilson.html (https://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/rawilson.html)




People who are stepped in the Puritan guilt-ethic view work as God's punishment for Original Sin. This is one of the reasons why they are so dead set against social welfare programs.

All the West is so steeped.


So they will be puzzled by the following, and be unable to comprehend it.

Thought experiment:

Imagine a world where all of the actual necessities of life are free....

Because that is fantasy, unrealistic. Why? Simple. You're alive (I assume). If you want to remain so you must act to stay so. If work is a four-letter dirty word to you, avoid it, but you must act to eat, clothe and shelter yourself. Can you obligate others to act for you? Then you enslave them. And that, I think we all agree, is immoral.


How do you eliminate poverty?

I gave an answer. Any thoughts on my answer?

[whatukno]

Let's look at where my little plan has worked in the past.

For a long time, it was quite illegal to brew your own alcohol. But then, they eased the restrictions on it, and people were able to make small quantities of beer, and wine. Some of these guys were good at what they were making, so they shared them with friends, who got more friends onto it, and the guy had a micro brewery business on his hands. More and more people did this, and the market became saturated, but, there was a lot of competition, which means these small microbreweries had to innovate, make a better product, and they competed.

The same thing is happening with legalized weed. The market is going to become saturated with brands and strains, and these guys are going to have to innovate, and compete, prices will go down, quality will go up, and some will grow, others will fold. Once that market becomes saturated, the market will demand something else, there's an old saying, build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door.

What's the next big thing? I don't know, self driving cars maybe, maybe it's a reliable anti gravity device, maybe it's a new method of producing renewable fuel. But some of these things have big companies that will buy you out just to quash your idea. And that's what needs to end, they are too big, they are actually hurting the market, and they are hurting everyone's chances at getting a piece of the American dream.

[donttread]

The solution to poverty.....work.

Example: My SIL, with a severe facial defect, only a high school education, 34 years old makes $160k+.

He started out as a car salesman and now has his own dealership. He's a hard worker, dedicated.

It can be done.

There are more busting their assess and getting nowhere

[Peter1469]

There are more busting their assess and getting nowhere

Do they look back on their high school years and wish that they could go back in time so they could give a fuck the second go around?

[Mac-7]

There are more busting their assess and getting nowhere

They should have busted their ass at 14 in school instead of growing up stupid.

[Redrose]

There are more busting their assess and getting nowhere


True, but the opportunities are there if you have the drive and passion to succeed. He learned 4 languages besides English so he could speak with people in their own tongue and put them at ease. He is fluent in those languages, can explain contracts in those languages. His family was not wealthy, but comfortable, he overcame terrible name calling for his birth defect, was never on welfare, never had affirmative action bennies, got fired from one great paying job at 19 because of his birth defect, his female boss couldn't look at him, and didn't let it stop him, never went on unemployment, never sued them for discrimination, he got a new job the same day. It's attitude that creates the opportunities.

Too many are defeatists, blame others for their failures, it's easier than accepting the reality they just don't have what it takes.

[Howey]

The solution to poverty.....work.

Example: My SIL, with a severe facial defect, only a high school education, 34 years old makes $160k+.

He started out as a car salesman and now has his own dealership. He's a hard worker, dedicated.

It can be done.

That's great, Redrose, but not everyone is capable of surmounting the odds. There's people who work hard on minimum wage with no chance of elevating their status. There are many who are quite happy and successful in their chosen field, regardless of economic or social status. They have a happy life, a happy family, a clean home, and little money. In my opinion they deserve our respect.

We need to understand that and empathize, rather than mock and criticize.

[Redrose]

That's great, @Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123), but not everyone is capable of surmounting the odds. There's people who work hard on minimum wage with no chance of elevating their status. There are many who are quite happy and successful in their chosen field, regardless of economic or social status. They have a happy life, a happy family, a clean home, and little money. In my opinion they deserve our respect.

We need to understand that and empathize, rather than mock and criticize.


I'm not mocking or criticizing, I am one of those people who was happy in my chosen field despite the lack of economic status. I am saying poverty can be overcome. I grew up poor, cold water flat in Brooklyn. My dad put in a water heater so we'd have hot water. I was determined to do better, and I did. I'm no millionaire, but I live well. We all can't be millionaires, but we can earn a living and be happy. Jealousy of those with more breeds hatred and dissention. I'm not jealous of Trump or those like him, I'm proud I accomplished what I have. I worked hard, two jobs for years, and I am proud of that. It has paid off.

Getting out of poverty doesn't mean you have to be mega wealthy, it means having an income that your earn, you have self pride that you are accomplishing something. You can buy things, own something like a car. You are not on the government teet.

I have another SIL whose main goal in life is to not work and let the government support him. Totally opposite from the other SIL. Both are 34, both had high school educations, and this one is drop dead gorgeous. He could have been successful, he had a job with Pepsi making $1000 per week, and quit because he didn't like driving and unloading the cases. So now he sits on his ass and does nothing and his wife is working to support them. It's attitude.

[donttread]

True, but the opportunities are there if you have the drive and passion to succeed. He learned 4 languages besides English so he could speak with people in their own tongue and put them at ease. He is fluent in those languages, can explain contracts in those languages. His family was not wealthy, but comfortable, he overcame terrible name calling for his birth defect, was never on welfare, never had affirmative action bennies, got fired from one great paying job at 19 because of his birth defect, his female boss couldn't look at him, and didn't let it stop him, never went on unemployment, never sued them for discrimination, he got a new job the same day. It's attitude that creates the opportunities.

Too many are defeatists, blame others for their failures, it's easier than accepting the reality they just don't have what it takes.

They're are several people who have worked hard and eventually bested the 4:00 minute mile. But most will never do that no matter how hard they work

[Safety]

Are you an Affirmative Action recipient or did you earn your career by hard work?

Did Barack Hussian Obama gain his position by his own hard work or was he given the presidency because he was black.

OK, that's not a good example because that is exactly how he became president the first time.

Knew race was going to be injected sooner or later. But it wasn't Cigar...

[Redrose]

They're are several people who have worked hard and eventually bested the 4:00 minute mile. But most will never do that no matter how hard they work


I know that is true, I've seen it. Most people create their own limitations. I see it with my own kids.

I grew up in NY, job opportunities were there, all levels from hotdog vender to bank vice president and up. I changed jobs a few times to get one that had a future. I commuted 3 hours each way to work, 6 hours each day if the trains were on time, to earn a fantastic salary. It was very difficult, but I did it.

I know people who will not relocate from their little berg where they grew up, all their family is there, their school pals, their buddies, and are frustrated with the low wages and lack of job opportunities, even though they bust their butt.

Most of the really successful people I know have moved around searching for a good job or career, even to another country with their firm. They know how to sell themselves.

Reinvent yourself, get some training, education. Expand your search area. I get so frustrated with those who must live near family. Are your family or your "pals" going to pay your bills? I think not.

[The Xl]

The solution to poverty.....work.

Example: My SIL, with a severe facial defect, only a high school education, 34 years old makes $160k+.

He started out as a car salesman and now has his own dealership. He's a hard worker, dedicated.

It can be done.

Just because it all worked out in that particular scenario doesn't mean that applies to all. There are so many variables at play here.

There are plenty of people who work and don't get ahead. There are some that do. It isn't black and white like some here are stating. On another note, if it's really all that simple in 2015, why are some of you freaked out about Obama and his policies, especially regarding the economy? That's a massive contradiction, those two trains of thought are at odds.

[The Xl]

I notice a lot of people spouting these sort of particulars are 45+ types. The dynamics of the game have completely changed, and it didn't hit you because you were well established before it all changed.

[Redrose]

Just because it all worked out in that particular scenario doesn't mean that applies to all. There are so many variables at play here.

There are plenty of people who work and don't get ahead. There are some that do. It isn't black and white like some here are stating. On another note, if it's really all that simple in 2015, why are some of you freaked out about Obama and his policies, especially regarding the economy? That's a massive contradiction, those two trains of thought are at odds.


My SIL's success was possible because of the growth of the dealership and capitalism. The private business was allowed to grow and hire. It is a 40 year old business. In an economic environment that suffocates business, these opportunities are reduced even eliminated completely.

[The Xl]

My SIL's success was possible because of the growth of the dealership and capitalism. The private business was allowed to grow and hire. It is a 40 year old business. In an economic environment that suffocates business, these opportunities are reduced even eliminated completely.

Aren't you basically admitting here that you were being overly harsh then? Opportunities have dried up, especially over the last couple of decades. It's not a matter of just hard work anymore, more variables and luck are at play, more so now then ever before.

[kilgram]

Obviously, the fault of being poor is of the poors. They wanted to be that. They are a bunch of lazy motherfuckers. They deserve it.

Don't you know that? Seriously, how cannot you know that? The poors like to be poor and depend on the others, because that way they feel that receive more attention, and they are attention whores.

So, yes, poors absolutely deserve their fate. Screw them. They are the trash of this society. I believe that we would send them somewhere else, behind a fence and keep them there, apart from the productive members of the society. That would be great!!!

[kilgram]

Aren't you basically admitting here that you were being overly harsh then? Opportunities have dried up, especially over the last couple of decades. It's not a matter of just hard work anymore, more variables and luck are at play, more so now then ever before.
Luck? What the hell? There is no luck variable. There is only one variable:

- Hard work. With hard work you can get everything. And you can leave to be poor.

In definitive, you only get what you deserve.

[Redrose]

Aren't you basically admitting here that you were being overly harsh then? Opportunities have dried up, especially over the last couple of decades. It's not a matter of just hard work anymore, more variables and luck are at play, more so now then ever before.


I agree with you somewhat, some opportunities have dried up.....under this Administration and it's big government mentality and big business is bad. That is why I am so opposed to suffocating big business. Let big business thrive, let them make their billions, that allows growth to varying degrees and creates jobs, good jobs, high paying jobs, full time jobs with benefits.

[Mac-7]

Knew race was going to be injected sooner or later. But it wasn't Cigar...

We are t talking about race today?

Why, because so many black people are poor?

[Mac-7]

We need to understand that and empathize, rather than mock and criticize.

Not criticize?

How can we get anywhere if we pretend that poor people are just the innocent victims of bad luck?

If that's the attitude their "luck" will never change.

[Bob]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

No, that is not the solution.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCDMZfkKTgQ

[Safety]

We are t talking about race today?

Why, because so many black people are poor?

Right, just making notes for later.

[Mac-7]

Right, just making notes for later.

Later when you inform the Gestapo?

That could be serious.

[Bob]

Jim Rohn will change your life if you allow him to.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BJkIEKofrc

[Bob]

Sad truth is most have just what they seek. They may pretend to seek more, but the proof is what you now have plus what your goals say you want.

[Safety]

Later when you inform the Gestapo?

That could be serious.
No, for when people get alzheimer's about their posts.

[Mac-7]

No, for when people get alzheimer's about their posts.

I think I had it right the first time.

you're an informant.

[zelmo1234]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

Yes remember the good old days of Anti Trust where the prices to the people increased and the Rockefellers, Carnegie's, Morgan's, and Fords ended up making 3 times as much as they did with their respected Monopolies?

What will end poverty is to stop letting people become dependent on the system. If they are forced to work, weather they are on the system or not, they will choose to work for more pay.

[Chris]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

Yes remember the good old days of Anti Trust where the prices to the people increased and the Rockefellers, Carnegie's, Morgan's, and Fords ended up making 3 times as much as they did with their respected Monopolies?

What will end poverty is to stop letting people become dependent on the system. If they are forced to work, weather they are on the system or not, they will choose to work for more pay.


I don't think you need force. You just need to make welfare less valuable and achieving something more valuable. For that you need opportunity for jobs and advancement, and for that you need prosperity. The government's just not doing a good job of it and should get out of the way.

[zelmo1234]

I don't think you need force. You just need to make welfare less valuable and achieving something more valuable. For that you need opportunity for jobs and advancement, and for that you need prosperity. The government's just not doing a good job of it and should get out of the way.

AH! NO! here is what I mean.

I want to locate a business in your city, I would like to take advantage of enterprise zones, and lower labor costs so I am driving around looking at buildings in the city limits. I see people sitting around on the porches smoking and drinking, people hanging out on corners rundown buildings, Gang Tags, and a general lack of repair.

But they I drive to the next City just across the state line to Zelmo land. I am looking for the same advantages. I see people sweeping the streets, cleaning and painting over the Gang Tags, Buildings under repair by what appears to be community organizations. I notice that what appears to be old schools have been turned into daycare centers.

They people all seem busy doing something. sure there is an occasional thug here and there but for the most part people seem to be working? Where do you think that I am likely to locate my business.

[Chris]

AH! NO! here is what I mean.

I want to locate a business in your city, I would like to take advantage of enterprise zones, and lower labor costs so I am driving around looking at buildings in the city limits. I see people sitting around on the porches smoking and drinking, people hanging out on corners rundown buildings, Gang Tags, and a general lack of repair.

But they I drive to the next City just across the state line to Zelmo land. I am looking for the same advantages. I see people sweeping the streets, cleaning and painting over the Gang Tags, Buildings under repair by what appears to be community organizations. I notice that what appears to be old schools have been turned into daycare centers.

They people all seem busy doing something. sure there is an occasional thug here and there but for the most part people seem to be working? Where do you think that I am likely to locate my business.

Well, in non-Zelmo Land, the people have noting they value, in Zelmo Land they do. The difference can't just be some don't want to work and some do.

[Bob]

AH! NO! here is what I mean.

I want to locate a business in your city, I would like to take advantage of enterprise zones, and lower labor costs so I am driving around looking at buildings in the city limits. I see people sitting around on the porches smoking and drinking, people hanging out on corners rundown buildings, Gang Tags, and a general lack of repair.

But they I drive to the next City just across the state line to Zelmo land. I am looking for the same advantages. I see people sweeping the streets, cleaning and painting over the Gang Tags, Buildings under repair by what appears to be community organizations. I notice that what appears to be old schools have been turned into daycare centers.

They people all seem busy doing something. sure there is an occasional thug here and there but for the most part people seem to be working? Where do you think that I am likely to locate my business.

Give me time. It will occur to me. :laugh:

[Dr. Who]

I agree with you somewhat, some opportunities have dried up.....under this Administration and it's big government mentality and big business is bad. That is why I am so opposed to suffocating big business. Let big business thrive, let them make their billions, that allows growth to varying degrees and creates jobs, good jobs, high paying jobs, full time jobs with benefits.
It's not just this administration - it's a world wide phenomenon and there is only one world-wide common denominator - global corporations. They are growing like a cancer and killing smaller business. They keep buying up businesses and reducing staff redundancy. That redundancy is work for young people. As global business consolidates administrative duties or outsources them to third world countries, those jobs simply disappear. If you compound that with software solutions and robotics, good jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate. People who are not possessed of a dynamic personality are less likely to be hired, despite their qualifications. This is not the old days when there were plenty of jobs and the decision was only about their ability to work. Now they really pick and choose. Candidates must also be appealing, good looking and educated - the whole package, just to do entry level work. That's what happens when you have a glut of potential workers in the market. Furthermore, once hired they are more valuable than untried workers and they don't stick around for more than two or three years because then they lose economic ground, because defined contribution pension plans, if they even have that, don't offer any incentive to stay and the market continues to dictate higher salaries for new hires. It's a very different world out there than the place where I started out.

[Mac-7]

It's not just this administration - it's a world wide phenomenon and there is only one world-wide common denominator - global corporations. They are growing like a cancer and killing smaller business. They keep buying up businesses and reducing staff redundancy. That redundancy is work for young people. As global business consolidates administrative duties or outsources them to third world countries, those jobs simply disappear. If you compound that with software solutions and robotics, good jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate. People who are not possessed of a dynamic personality are less likely to be hired, despite their qualifications. This is not the old days when there were plenty of jobs and the decision was only about their ability to work. Now they really pick and choose. Candidates must also be appealing, good looking and educated - the whole package, just to do entry level work. That's what happens when you have a glut of potential workers in the market. Furthermore, once hired they are more valuable than untried workers and they don't stick around for more than two or three years because then they lose economic ground, because defined contribution pension plans, if they even have that, don't offer any incentive to stay and the market continues to dictate higher salaries for new hires. It's a very different world out there than the place where I started out.

There are millions of jobs being performed around the world by real people.

Jobs that could be done here.

That were once done here.

But now futurists are telling us the jobs are gone forever and there no shame in being a lazy bum on welfare.

Thats the new world order that liberals have planned for America.

[Dr. Who]

There are millions of jobs being performed around the world by real people.

Jobs that could be done here.

That were once done here.

But now futurists are telling us the jobs are gone forever and there no shame in being a lazy bum on welfare.

Thats the new world order that liberals have planned for America.
I'm not saying that there are no jobs - there are fewer jobs and the bar for getting those jobs is higher than it used to be, so now we have a large number of university grads working at Starbucks, McDonalds and all manner of other retail establishments that at one time wouldn't have even required a high school diploma, but are only paying wages commensurate with basic education. With all of these college grads on the market, there are few jobs available for the high school only grads. Either they make their own work or they become welfare recipients.

[Chris]

It's not just this administration - it's a world wide phenomenon and there is only one world-wide common denominator - global corporations. They are growing like a cancer and killing smaller business. They keep buying up businesses and reducing staff redundancy. That redundancy is work for young people. As global business consolidates administrative duties or outsources them to third world countries, those jobs simply disappear. If you compound that with software solutions and robotics, good jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate. People who are not possessed of a dynamic personality are less likely to be hired, despite their qualifications. This is not the old days when there were plenty of jobs and the decision was only about their ability to work. Now they really pick and choose. Candidates must also be appealing, good looking and educated - the whole package, just to do entry level work. That's what happens when you have a glut of potential workers in the market. Furthermore, once hired they are more valuable than untried workers and they don't stick around for more than two or three years because then they lose economic ground, because defined contribution pension plans, if they even have that, don't offer any incentive to stay and the market continues to dictate higher salaries for new hires. It's a very different world out there than the place where I started out.

That and the government. One without the other is powerless.

[Mac-7]

I'm not saying that there are no jobs - there are fewer jobs and the bar for getting those jobs is higher than it used to be, so now we have a large number of university grads working at Starbucks, McDonalds and all manner of other retail establishments that at one time wouldn't have even required a high school diploma, but are only paying wages commensurate with basic education. With all of these college grads on the market, there are few jobs available for the high school only grads. Either they make their own work or they become welfare recipients.

There are few good jobs for high school grads because those jobs moved to Mexico and china.

But they didn't have to.

Thats part of what trump means when he says American politicians are stupid.

[Dr. Who]

That and the government. One without the other is powerless.
I agree that the government has been lax in allowing so many mergers and acquisitions, knowing that these M&As result in job loss every time. What is good for business is not always good for the people. Not anymore. Software can handle millions of transactions without any increase in personnel. Government is too busy paying off obligations to do the right thing, so they rubber stamp these M&As and don't call them the monopolies that they are.

[Chris]

I agree that the government has been lax in allowing so many mergers and acquisitions, knowing that these M&As result in job loss every time. What is good for business is not always good for the people. Not anymore. Software can handle millions of transactions without any increase in personnel. Government is too busy paying off obligations to do the right thing, so they rubber stamp these M&As and don't call them the monopolies that they are.

Lax? The problem is the government, globally, is growing bigger and stronger. You need big government to support big corporations. In saying the government is growing lax the implication is you want it even bigger.

[Dr. Who]

There are few good jobs for high school grads because those jobs moved to Mexico and china.

But they didn't have to.

Thats part of what trump means when he says American politicians are stupid.
I'm not disagreeing with that notion. But neither party has been preserving jobs. Both have been catering to the big corporations, because both have been getting paid by those very corporations. The same corporations support both sides and fund their campaigns - what does that tell you? Whomever gets elected owes their campaign to those same corporations. The only politicians who can take their money without an obligation are those who are prepared to leave politics either after their term is served or if they lose. Otherwise, if they have political ambitions they will take the money and repay the favor. It's so ridiculously obvious that I can't understand how people can pretend otherwise. The system has this corruption built-in with lobbyists. Who are the lobbyists - representatives of the campaign funders.

[Mac-7]

I'm not disagreeing with that notion.

But neither party has been preserving jobs.

Both have been catering to the big corporations, because both have been getting paid by those very corporations. The same corporations support both sides and fund their campaigns - what does that tell you? Whomever gets elected owes their campaign to those same corporations. The only politicians who can take their money without an obligation are those who are prepared to leave politics either after their term is served or if they lose. Otherwise, if they have political ambitions they will take the money and repay the favor. It's so ridiculously obvious that I can't understand how people can pretend otherwise. The system has this corruption built-in with lobbyists. Who are the lobbyists - representatives of the campaign funders.

Did trump say only democrat politicians were stupid?

No he didn't.

[Redrose]

I notice a lot of people spouting these sort of particulars are 45+ types. The dynamics of the game have completely changed, and it didn't hit you because you were well established before it all changed.


That's true. That's why it is important to be careful whom you vote for.

Someone who is going to smother free enterprise and shackle big business will kill job opportunities.

No one is going to be comfortable income wise with only parttime work, and mandatory high priced medical premiums.

We 45+ folks did have a better chance of succeeding, mainly because we had many presidents who worked to build the economy and not reduce it to a bland, grey mediocre disaster.

[Peter1469]

There are millions of jobs being performed around the world by real people.

Jobs that could be done here.

That were once done here.

But now futurists are telling us the jobs are gone forever and there no shame in being a lazy bum on welfare.

Thats the new world order that liberals have planned for America.

Which futurists are saying that about which jobs?

[Peter1469]

There are few good jobs for high school grads because those jobs moved to Mexico and china.

But they didn't have to.

Thats part of what trump means when he says American politicians are stupid.

Low skilled jobs in the service industry don't move to Mexico. People don't travel south of the border to get asked "would you like fries with that."

[Dr. Who]

Did trump say only democrat politicians were stupid?

No he didn't.
So only one sentence is worth a response and you take it back to Trump? He's a ringer for the Democrats and you are so impressed with his words that you don't even weigh them in the context of what he's said in the past. While I could care less about the success of the GOP, watching Trump game you with what you want to hear is rather sad.

[Mac-7]

Which futurists are saying that about which jobs?

Fence sitters and 1%ers here and elsewhere.

They are very sure that robots will soon do all the jobs so why even try?

these are often the folks who attack both major parties calling them both exactly the same always seem to like some loser who has no chance of actually winning.

They believe that someday 50% of the voters will join them for a majority that will somehow take care of everything.

How is unanswered but who cares since it will never happen anyway?

[Mac-7]

So only one sentence is worth a response and you take it back to Trump? He's a ringer for the Democrats and you are so impressed with his words that you don't even weigh them in the context of what he's said in the past. While I could care less about the success of the GOP, watching Trump game you with what you want to hear is rather sad.

I try to respond to the key sentence and I think that was it.

I don't want to continue fighting the usual partisan battles.

Trump is highlighting the key issues so he deserves the most attention.

[Peter1469]

Fence sitters and 1%ers here and elsewhere.

They are very sure that robots will soon do all the jobs so why even try?

these are often the folks who attack both major parties calling them both exactly the same always seem to like some loser who has no chance of actually winning.

They believe that someday 50% of the voters will join them for a majority that will somehow take care of everything.

How is unanswered but who cares since it will never happen anyway?

I thought that when you used the term futurists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurist) you meant the real thing. I see now that you did not. Got it. Check out the link if you have any interest into what the word means.

And yes, correct, both main parties are two sides of the same coin. Their ultimate goals are the same. A stronger central government in control over your life and my life.

And therefore it follows that those who still claim you have to vote (D) or (R) are the ones who are asleep and sheep-like.

[Redrose]

Low skilled jobs in the service industry don't move to Mexico. People don't travel south of the border to get asked "would you like fries with that."


"would you like frijoles with that"

[kilgram]

That and the government. One without the other is powerless.
There is where you are absolutely wrong.

Without government, big corporations easily can take the functions that now is the government who does it.

However, it is more comfortable for them, to delegate to government and letting to the government get the bad image.

[kilgram]

I agree that the government has been lax in allowing so many mergers and acquisitions, knowing that these M&As result in job loss every time. What is good for business is not always good for the people. Not anymore. Software can handle millions of transactions without any increase in personnel. Government is too busy paying off obligations to do the right thing, so they rubber stamp these M&As and don't call them the monopolies that they are.
Chris was going in other direction. :)

Because he believes in absolute free market, therefore the freedom to do all those mergers would be much easier :)

[Refugee]

You want ‘freedom’, but at the same time government to look after you.
You believe in The Founding Fathers; independence and self-reliance, but hang on to every word politicians say.
If you haven’t got a job, that’s not society’s fault. If you’re so obese you can’t stand up, that’s not the government’s fault and if you’re working at McDonalds in your 30s, that’s your fault.
Those who believed the government would look after them are the poorest in society.

How to get rid of ‘relative’ poverty? Vote for more socialism and when everyone is equally poor on a minimum wage, it will be the norm and poverty will no longer exist.
Until then, accept that some are poor in relation to others and those on welfare with a roof over their heads are rich compared to those who are homeless.

[Mac-7]

Low skilled jobs in the service industry don't move to Mexico. People don't travel south of the border to get asked "would you like fries with that."

Thats when liberals open the border and bring poor foreigners here.

Americans including naturalized citizens and the children of illegal aliens collect welfare and do nothing while new immigrants do the work.

[Peter1469]

You want ‘freedom’, but at the same time government to look after you.
You believe in The Founding Fathers; independence and self-reliance, but hang on to every word politicians say.
If you haven’t got a job, that’s not society’s fault. If you’re so obese you can’t stand up, that’s not the government’s fault and if you’re working at McDonalds in your 30s, that’s your fault.
Those who believed the government would look after them are the poorest in society.

How to get rid of ‘relative’ poverty? Vote for more socialism and when everyone is equally poor on a minimum wage, it will be the norm and poverty will no longer exist.
Until then, accept that some are poor in relation to others and those on welfare with a roof over their heads are rich compared to those who are homeless.


It is the Life of Julia (http://www.thelifeofjulia.com/) syndrome. Since O's 2008 campaign the hard left has been pushing the cradle to grave government assistance scam.

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[Peter1469]

Thats when liberals open the border and bring poor foreigners here.

Americans including naturalized citizens and the children of illegal aliens collect welfare and do nothing while new immigrants do the work.

We need to fix our immigration policy. And welfare policy. Abled bodies people should not get a government check without doing work for it.

[Mac-7]

We need to fix our immigration policy. And welfare policy. Abled bodies people should not get a government check without doing work for it.

They should not get a government check at all.

Fire the worthless Obama voter writing the government check and force the lazy welfare bum receiving the check to both find a job in the private sector.

[Peter1469]

They should not get a government check at all.

Fire the worthless Obama voter writing the government check and force the lazy welfare bum receiving the check to both find a job in the private sector.

Obama is in a quandary; his economic policies are killing jobs...

[Mac-7]

Obama is in a quandary; his economic policies are killing jobs...

As the Obama fanatics keep pointing out he won reelection.

Normally that is not supposed to happen.

But we are a new country with the highest percentage of immigrants ever and an education system infested with hippies and Vietnam war protestors who hate America and love the Cuban economic system.

So obama throwing people out of work only translates to more needy people looking for a government handout which means more Obama voters.

[Peter1469]

As the Obama fanatics keep pointing out he won reelection.

Normally that is not supposed to happen.

But we are a new country with the highest percentage of immigrants ever and an education system infested with hippies and Vietnam war protestors who hate America and love the Cuban economic system.

So obama throwing people out of work only translates to more needy people looking for a government handout which means more Obama voters.

Unfortunate, but true.

When the democrats and republicans crash the economy, it will be amusing to see their reaction when the government handouts end.

I am prepared. Are you?

[Mac-7]

Unfortunate, but true.

When the democrats and republicans crash the economy, it will be amusing to see their reaction when the government handouts end.

I am prepared. Are you?

I will never be prepared to see the end of the greatest country on earth.

[Peter1469]

I will never be prepared to see the end of the greatest country on earth.

You should be- you vote for that end. And demand that I do as well.

You are an odd duck, Mac.

[Mac-7]

You should be- you vote for that end. And demand that I do as well.

You are an odd duck, Mac.

Perhaps.

but I used to be a regular duck.

That shows how close to the end we are.

[Peter1469]

Perhaps.

but I used to be a regular duck.

That shows how close to the end we are.

The end of what? The US economy?

[Refugee]

Unfortunate, but true.

When the democrats and republicans crash the economy, it will be amusing to see their reaction when the government handouts end.

I am prepared. Are you?

It will run its course. Look around the world and find a ‘socialist’ or ‘People’s’ Republic with State handouts and a third of its country to obese to walk, let alone work; legalised drugs, people running naked through the streets ‘celebrating’ their diversity . . .
‘Free’ is difficult to say no to, but the hardest part is giving it up once you have it. An increasingly militarised police force, FEMA camps for ‘emergencies’ and a growing anti-gun lobby might be a clue – or is that a conspiracy theory? :smiley:

[Peter1469]

Much of the world is run off a unsustainable debt- that debt will be deleveraged one way or another. It is only a matter of timing.

[Refugee]

Much of the world is run off a unsustainable debt- that debt will be deleveraged one way or another. It is only a matter of timing.

In the UK I slept with my Swiss army knife at the ready:

Don't mess with the Brits, we're trained and prepared (and it's got a bottle opener)!

12366

:smiley_ROFLMAO:

[OGIS]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

This appears attractive as a solution, however there are at least a couple of unintended consequences.

(1) First and foremost, unless the monopoly or near monopoly is charging rentier prices, larger infrastructure generally leads to more efficient and therefore lower cost of products or services. Carving a monopoly up into smaller chunks simply because it is a monopoly can therefore result in higher costs and thus everyone being worse off.

Note that in an actual free market system worthy of the name, where competitors are not constrained by the state from entering the market, rentier pricing is generally an invitation to quick competition, and thus the end of the monopoly.

(2) The very government mechanisms erected to protect from monopolies (and indeed regulate businesses in general) often tend to create monopolies. It's a mechanism called "regulatory capture" and there is an excellent article on it in Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

Both of these issues are central to any discussion of state-capitalism (i.e.: state-run industry aka socialism), and of any conceivable FARPPET economic system. The reasons should be obvious.

[OGIS]

Sure, Dorothy...

See, here you had a chance to educate, and you derp, instead.

[kilgram]

As the Obama fanatics keep pointing out he won reelection.

Normally that is not supposed to happen.

But we are a new country with the highest percentage of immigrants ever and an education system infested with hippies and Vietnam war protestors who hate America and love the Cuban economic system.

So obama throwing people out of work only translates to more needy people looking for a government handout which means more Obama voters.
USA is a country of immigrants.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

[Chris]

USA is a country of immigrants.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk


As if that's not true anywhere?

http://i.snag.gy/1UC3Z.jpg

[kilgram]

As if that's not true anywhere?

http://i.snag.gy/1UC3Z.jpg
And?

I am not the one who have problems with inmigration.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

[Chris]

The solution to poverty is stronger anti monopoly laws. Too big to fail is too big to exist. Spread that business around to smaller companies and watch everyone get much better off.

Never ceases to amaze me how the solution to government created problems is always more government.

[Refugee]

Seems to me that the ones cheering on mass immigration are not the ones paying for it? I've never seen a taxpayer march protesting that more welfare is needed, capitalism kills, or insisting they pay more to feed the world. :smiley:

[Peter1469]

Europe is having its problem with African migrants.

[OGIS]

What would we do with the millions of state and federal employees that would be out of a job with no poor people's paperwork to shuffle?

That is an excellent point. It is IMHO the main reason that the War on Poverty has been an abject failure. The same idea applies to the War on Drugs. And also to private efforts by NGOs to accomplish various charitable goals. It also needs to be addressed in a FARPPET economy.

A free market system runs on a coincidence of self-interest of buyer and seller. The seller advances his interests, when he fulfills the interest of the buyer.

Any version of a command economy system (in a sense this includes all private charity, since the product constraints all come from the management running the NGO) has a conflict between the interests of the recipient and the provider. If the provider fulfills all the recipient's needs (i.e.: lifting a population out of poverty), there is no more need for the provider.

Success in winning the war leads to the unemployment of the providers.

And that is one of the problems to enabling a FARPPET economy. An AI-calculated equal monthly Heritage Payment to all citizens (regardless of income) would require far less warm bodies in various government agencies than we currently have. Consider: no qualification tests, no need for inspections, etc. Mass unemployment for the bureaucrats.

[Mac-7]

And?

I am not the one who have problems with inmigration.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

I don't care what they do in your country.

But Americans have a right to limit immigration based on what benefits America not the foreigners.

[OGIS]

You don't think the government should break up these massive multinational corporations with a stranglehold on the economy? When these companies hit hard times, they are so large, they take down huge chunks of the economy. Breaking them up is the only solution so that small business has an opportunity to grow and innovate.

Those massive multinational corporations are often creatures of the government, either directly, or through regulations that raise the entry cost too high for competitors to come about.

If there was a massive multinational corporation that did not charge rentier pricing, would you have a problem with it?

[OGIS]

The best way to break up the multinational is to end all restrictive laws against businesses. Monopolies can only exist by government intervention.

Incorrect and simplistic. Continuing monopolies can exist through two mechanisms: (1) as you said, government intervention that either outright prohibits competition, or otherwise raises the price of entry; (2) efficiency of operations and NOT charging rentier pricing, in which case the company is being a "good citizen" and there is no practical or ethical need to bust it up.

That is theory. In the real world, political economics is messier, and most instances of monopolies are blends of the two.


Jeez, even a cave man knows that.

Ad hominem and unworthy of comment.

[OGIS]

It's like 1932 all over again! Can we make them wear a red "P" around their necks? Deutschland Uber alles!

12367

[OGIS]

Because with more small businesses competing for their share of the market, innovation happens, better practices occur, some companies will grow, some will fail. In the end, everyone benefits from more competition.

Again, not necessarily true.

Some types of innovation require bigness. Example: worldwide telecommunications, private space exploration.

And better practices are often seen in larger companies. Example: the (sometimes only theoretical) across-the-board cleanliness standards at a fast food chain, as opposed to the often questionable practices at a local eatery.

This second point is often the result of minimum standards regulation by the State. A larger company is able to spread the regulatory costs across more productive units. And this, of course, can have an impact on monopoly status.

[OGIS]

Good luck with that, Dorothy...

I've noted very few actual helpful posts from you lately. You're brain and fingers seem to have devolved into sarcastic outrage trolling mechanisms. Is there a problem?

[OGIS]

Everything is relative and your plan would raise the poverty level until it included you

And that would be irony worthy of a twilight zone episode.

To rip a paraphrase straight out of Atlas Shrugged, "Nooooooo.... I didn't want this....!"

I would laugh.

[OGIS]

The solution to poverty.....work.

Example: My SIL, with a severe facial defect, only a high school education, 34 years old makes $160k+.

He started out as a car salesman and now has his own dealership. He's a hard worker, dedicated.

It can be done.

I think your example is simplistic, and the result of cherry-picking.

Every damned thing is existence is ruled by the Bell Curve. Everything. Many call it the 80/20 rule, though those percentages are more often than not quite fluid.

Your single person example: how many others cannot make that grade?

Hard work, in and of itself, simply makes one a better slave.

A successful person also needs a certain amount of empathy (both in terms being able to exploit family connections, and in terms of effectively networking on their own).

And a successful person needs luck. It is true that luck tends to find those who are prepared for it to find them, but that is nowhere near a Universal.

How does your Cunning Plan address the 80%, or 90%, that do not make the grade?

Useless Eater brand organic fertilizer?

[OGIS]

Poor people don't need jobs as long as they have obumer and the wipe-every-nose welfare state to take care of them.

But they are peeved that they don't collect $160K each year.

Do conservatives these days do anything other than whine and gripe?

[OGIS]

It's a problem that solves itself. Pretty soon they are unemployed and living below the poverty level. More Gas!!

And then the business they all used to shop at go under for lack of sales, the owners go bankrupt and end up below the poverty level. More Gas!!

And then the companies that make the stuff those business used to sell are forced to close because there's no one to buy their products, employees laid off, management furloughed, everybody ends up below the poverty level. More Gas!!

I'm gonna stop now, but I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

Exactly. And that is the problem we now face with exponentially increasing Automation, Robotics and Programming (ARP). Here is an article that describes exactly your point:

https://medium.com/basic-income/self-driving-trucks-are-going-to-hit-us-like-a-human-driven-truck-b8507d9c5961

The transition to a post-scarcity FARPPET economy is, I fear, going to be messy. I foresee ideological myopia, unemployment rage, massive economic dislocations, riots, smashed machines, bloodshed, and starvation.

It will end up making the troubles during the Industrial Revolution seem like a garden party.

[OGIS]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by OGIS http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1217330#post1217330) Why must one be societally productive in order to justify one's existence?


Wut?

Was their something unintelligible to you about that simple question?

[Private Pickle]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by OGIS http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1217330#post1217330) Why must one be societally productive in order to justify one's existence?



Was their something unintelligible to you about that simple question?

The context.

[OGIS]

All the West is so steeped.

True.


Because that is fantasy, unrealistic. Why? Simple. You're alive (I assume). If you want to remain so you must act to stay so. If work is a four-letter dirty word to you, avoid it, but you must act to eat, clothe and shelter yourself. Can you obligate others to act for you? Then you enslave them. And that, I think we all agree, is immoral.

You need to think outside of the old boxes. Material and historical conditions have changed. There is a 3rd option to:
(1) working to supply value in exchange for value; or
(2) enslaving other people to produce value for you.

That 3rd option is:
(3) enslaving machines to produce value for you.

Unless, of course, you believe it is immoral to enslave machines. then, I must ask, why are you using a computer? Why, indeed, are not you living in a cave somewhere?

Aristotle said this 2,500 years ago:

There is only one condition in which we can imagine managers not needing subordinates, and masters not needing slaves.

This condition would be that each (inanimate) instrument could do its own work, at the word of command or by intelligent anticipation, like the statues of Daedalus or the tripods made by Hephaestus, of which Homer relates that


"Of their own motion they entered the conclave of Gods on Olympus"


as if a shuttle should weave of itself, and a plectrum should do its own harp playing.

[OGIS]

Do they look back on their high school years and wish that they could go back in time so they could give a $#@! the second go around?


They should have busted their ass at 14 in school instead of growing up stupid.

Let's set up the society to punish people for the rest of their lives for stupid decisions they made when they were teenagers. Yeah, that will totally work.

[OGIS]

Too many are defeatists, blame others for their failures, it's easier than accepting the reality they just don't have what it takes.

Darwinian selection for the win? You apparently do not actually understand the concept of Darwinian selection.

[Chris]

True.



You need to think outside of the old boxes. Material and historical conditions have changed. There is a 3rd option to:
(1) working to supply value in exchange for value; or
(2) enslaving other people to produce value for you.

That 3rd option is:
(3) enslaving machines to produce value for you.

Unless, of course, you believe it is immoral to enslave machines. then, I must ask, why are you using a computer? Why, indeed, are not you living in a cave somewhere?

Aristotle said this 2,500 years ago:

There is only one condition in which we can imagine managers not needing subordinates, and masters not needing slaves.

This condition would be that each (inanimate) instrument could do its own work, at the word of command or by intelligent anticipation, like the statues of Daedalus or the tripods made by Hephaestus, of which Homer relates that


"Of their own motion they entered the conclave of Gods on Olympus"


as if a shuttle should weave of itself, and a plectrum should do its own harp playing.




You need to think outside of the old boxes. Material and historical conditions have changed. There is a 3rd option to:
(1) working to supply value in exchange for value; or
(2) enslaving other people to produce value for you.

That 3rd option is:
(3) enslaving machines to produce value for you.

(3) is but an extension of (1). We create machines to do the menial things we do so that we can do other things.

[OGIS]

I notice a lot of people spouting these sort of particulars are 45+ types. The dynamics of the game have completely changed, and it didn't hit you because you were well established before it all changed.

Exactly.

And for whatever reason they can not see (or choose not to see) that the dynamics of the game have changed. There are vast historical forces at work here.

[Chris]

True, but the opportunities are there if you have the drive and passion to succeed. He learned 4 languages besides English so he could speak with people in their own tongue and put them at ease. He is fluent in those languages, can explain contracts in those languages. His family was not wealthy, but comfortable, he overcame terrible name calling for his birth defect, was never on welfare, never had affirmative action bennies, got fired from one great paying job at 19 because of his birth defect, his female boss couldn't look at him, and didn't let it stop him, never went on unemployment, never sued them for discrimination, he got a new job the same day. It's attitude that creates the opportunities.

Too many are defeatists, blame others for their failures, it's easier than accepting the reality they just don't have what it takes.


Sometimes the opportunities aren't there or they are too restricted. My favorite example is most anyone could afford a car and insurance but the cost a medallion to use it as a taxi is prohibitive. Minimum wage sets up barriers.

[OGIS]

My SIL's success was possible because of the growth of the dealership and capitalism. The private business was allowed to grow and hire. It is a 40 year old business. In an economic environment that suffocates business, these opportunities are reduced even eliminated completely.

You offer anecdotes. As with ghost stories and UFO sightings, they are not proof of validity. And they ignore that fact that the rules of the game are changing. The rise of the thinking machines is both a terrible threat and a wonderful opportunity, and your thinking, mired in the past, does not address any of that.

[OGIS]

No, that is not the solution.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCDMZfkKTgQ

Success Gospel is one of the most evil philosophies ever created. And if there is a Hell, all of those a$$holes will be burning in it.

[OGIS]

I think I had it right the first time.

you're an informant.

And you are paranoid. Please take your meds.

Seriously, it's nonsense to believe that he is an informer. The NSA has a copy of everything said here anyway. Hell, several posters are probably NSA false flag trolls or FBI agent provocateurs. Why would they need additional informers? Again, take your meds.

[OGIS]

Yes remember the good old days of Anti Trust where the prices to the people increased and the Rockefellers, Carnegie's, Morgan's, and Fords ended up making 3 times as much as they did with their respected Monopolies?

Absolutely true.


What will end poverty is to stop letting people become dependent on the system. If they are forced to work, weather they are on the system or not, they will choose to work for more pay.

Absolutely false. The jobs are all going bye-bye.

Here are your choices:

(1) kill off the Useless Eaters before they decide to break out the guillotines (there are many more of them than their are of you).

(2) radically reform the system to take advantage of the fact that machines are replacing humans in performing useful work. This, of course, means an end to both classical capitalism and the state-capitalism that people call socialism.

[OGIS]

AH! NO! here is what I mean.

I want to locate a business in your city, I would like to take advantage of enterprise zones, and lower labor costs so I am driving around looking at buildings in the city limits. I see people sitting around on the porches smoking and drinking, people hanging out on corners rundown buildings, Gang Tags, and a general lack of repair.

But they I drive to the next City just across the state line to Zelmo land. I am looking for the same advantages. I see people sweeping the streets, cleaning and painting over the Gang Tags, Buildings under repair by what appears to be community organizations. I notice that what appears to be old schools have been turned into daycare centers.

They people all seem busy doing something. sure there is an occasional thug here and there but for the most part people seem to be working? Where do you think that I am likely to locate my business.

Now replace all those people who are cleaning and painting and repairing with machines. Now perform your calculation.

[OGIS]

There are millions of jobs being performed around the world by real people.

Jobs that could be done here.

That were once done here.

But now futurists are telling us the jobs are gone forever and there no shame in being a lazy bum on welfare.

Thats the new world order that liberals have planned for America.


The Poors of India would like a word...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-09/india-robot-invasion-undercuts-modi-s-quest-to-put-poor-to-work

Mac, you really need to wake up and smell the machine oil.

[OGIS]

Which futurists are saying that about which jobs?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPaf9YGz6Es

To name one among hundreds.

[OGIS]

I thought that when you used the term futurists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurist) you meant the real thing. I see now that you did not. Got it. Check out the link if you have any interest into what the word means.

And yes, correct, both main parties are two sides of the same coin. Their ultimate goals are the same. A stronger central government in control over your life and my life.

And therefore it follows that those who still claim you have to vote (D) or (R) are the ones who are asleep and sheep-like.

Sounds like Mac is merely replacing "commie" with "futurist" as the monster under the bed.

[OGIS]

The context.

Which is what it is. Simple question: why must people work to exist?

[Howey]

AH! NO! here is what I mean.

I want to locate a business in your city, I would like to take advantage of enterprise zones, and lower labor costs so I am driving around looking at buildings in the city limits. I see people sitting around on the porches smoking and drinking, people hanging out on corners rundown buildings, Gang Tags, and a general lack of repair.

But they I drive to the next City just across the state line to Zelmo land. I am looking for the same advantages. I see people sweeping the streets, cleaning and painting over the Gang Tags, Buildings under repair by what appears to be community organizations. I notice that what appears to be old schools have been turned into daycare centers.

They people all seem busy doing something. sure there is an occasional thug here and there but for the most part people seem to be working? Where do you think that I am likely to locate my business.


For most companies that would be the location with the lowest start up cost and most incentives. Invariably that would be just the location you dismiss.

Companies follow the money. Building a new business in blighted communities brings jobs and respect to the community and the business for providing them. These are called enterprise zones.

Offering incentives to new business isn't necessary in areas that don't need help.

[OGIS]

I said: You need to think outside of the old boxes. Material and historical conditions have changed. There is a 3rd option to:
(1) working to supply value in exchange for value; or
(2) enslaving other people to produce value for you.

That 3rd option is:
(3) enslaving machines to produce value for you.


(3) is but an extension of (1). We create machines to do the menial things we do so that we can do other things.

Absolutely true. But my point, and the point of many others such as McAfee, is that machine technology has reached a tipping point where it is creating qualitative change, not merely the replacement of a given quantity of human muscle.

If machines end up doing all the work necessary to supply human survival needs, then how is "free stuff" an immoral or impractical thing?

Granted, the concept is a snapshot of a future that ignores the "getting from here to there." But that future is inevitable. Our choices must deal with that process: how to respond to the economic, technological and cultural pressures. One choice leads to a lot of the "bad stuff" that history books are filled with.

[OGIS]

Sometimes the opportunities aren't there or they are too restricted. My favorite example is most anyone could afford a car and insurance but the cost a medallion to use it as a taxi is prohibitive. Minimum wage sets up barriers.

Both excellent examples.

And yet both arbitrary conditions exist within a context of many, many similar conditions. Remove them without thought and you create economic dislocations that can often destroy lives.

My two favorite examples of this:

Deregulation of the S&L industry was a disaster because only part of the system was deregulated. Government oversight to regulate management shenanigans was removed, but the FDIC insurance was left in place, and depositors therefore had no incentive to replace state oversight with their own.

Again, deregulation of California's energy market was a disaster (Enron) because only part of the system was deregulated. Prices were freed to attain market levels, but huge restrictions on local production of energy remained. This resulted in energy speculations that ended up spiking the market.

The solution in both cases would have been to deregulate the whole industry, very slowly, to allow time for the economic players to adjust.

[Private Pickle]

Which is what it is. Simple question: why must people work to exist?

They don't.

[OGIS]

They don't.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

[Private Pickle]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm not...

[Chris]

I said: You need to think outside of the old boxes. Material and historical conditions have changed. There is a 3rd option to:
(1) working to supply value in exchange for value; or
(2) enslaving other people to produce value for you.

That 3rd option is:
(3) enslaving machines to produce value for you.



Absolutely true. But my point, and the point of many others such as McAfee, is that machine technology has reached a tipping point where it is creating qualitative change, not merely the replacement of a given quantity of human muscle.

If machines end up doing all the work necessary to supply human survival needs, then how is "free stuff" an immoral or impractical thing?

Granted, the concept is a snapshot of a future that ignores the "getting from here to there." But that future is inevitable. Our choices must deal with that process: how to respond to the economic, technological and cultural pressures. One choice leads to a lot of the "bad stuff" that history books are filled with.


What you're trying to do, and McAfee, if I understand your take on him, is invent a tipping point that's different in kind from what man has always do, innovate technology as extension of himself. Your (3) is just (1). It's perhaps a difference in degree, not kind. And even difference of degree is debatable since technological advancement has been logarithmical all the time anyhow.

Your singularity isn't going to happen.

[Chris]

Both excellent examples.

And yet both arbitrary conditions exist within a context of many, many similar conditions. Remove them without thought and you create economic dislocations that can often destroy lives.

My two favorite examples of this:

Deregulation of the S&L industry was a disaster because only part of the system was deregulated. Government oversight to regulate management shenanigans was removed, but the FDIC insurance was left in place, and depositors therefore had no incentive to replace state oversight with their own.

Again, deregulation of California's energy market was a disaster (Enron) because only part of the system was deregulated. Prices were freed to attain market levels, but huge restrictions on local production of energy remained. This resulted in energy speculations that ended up spiking the market.

The solution in both cases would have been to deregulate the whole industry, very slowly, to allow time for the economic players to adjust.


The only reason deregulation fails is because regulation was attempted and people grew to depend on it. Both are attempts to manage the economy which is something we barely understand, so both are bound to be disasters.

[OGIS]

What you're trying to do, and McAfee, if I understand your take on him, is invent a tipping point that's different in kind from what man has always do, innovate technology as extension of himself. Your (3) is just (1). It's perhaps a difference in degree, not kind. And even difference of degree is debatable since technological advancement has been logarithmical all the time anyhow.

Your singularity isn't going to happen.

Then we must agree to disagree. I am convinced that it will happen. the world is full of examples of where differences in degree reach a tipping point where they effect differences in kind. And I believe that FARP is one of those examples.

Again, the first Industrial Revolution replaced muscle. This one is replacing mind, as well.

And the volume and speed of that replacement is where the problem lies: technology is exponential; retraining and reeducation are linear.

Sometimes I feel like this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BsxpS2DKMfU/TklIuSL0qZI/AAAAAAAAABs/ZKUDOEumMek/s1600/sales.JPG

Wake up and smell the machine oil.

[Common]

This may be a bit off topic but the end result its about poverty.
I have been unfortunate to see alot of bad stuff and I paid attention to what I was looking at.

There are alot of very intelligent educated people that have a level of naivette because of things they dont teach you in classrooms and you wont experience it.

One of those is true inner city poverty, I mean deep insidious poverty based on ignorance.
I dont post about some of my experiences because they would come out as being racist to some and I dont want to give a false impression of myself.

There are many inner city blacks that cant write or read because they hardly if ever went to school. They have zero chance to emerge from that successful in any way. How do you fix it ?

As long as there are parents so strung out on drugs that its all the can care about, you will have kids not going to school, not having shoes to go to school with. If you dont LEARN you cant grow.

I am not making a liberal plea here to throw govt dollars at the problem. Im asking how in the world do you fix this. Giving the parents money feeds their drug habits. Ive seen this time and again.

[Chris]

Then we must agree to disagree. I am convinced that it will happen. the world is full of examples of where differences in degree reach a tipping point where they effect differences in kind. And I believe that FARP is one of those examples.

Again, the first Industrial Revolution replaced muscle. This one is replacing mind, as well.

And the volume and speed of that replacement is where the problem lies: technology is exponential; retraining and reeducation are linear.


In order to disagree you have to make an argument. You have just agreed the needed difference in kind, needed for your tipping point, is really a difference in degree, which is just logarithmic. The Industrial Revolution was as well just a difference in degree, it was revolutionary only in that is displace people from agriculture to manufacturing, just as now we're shifting to service in an information age.

Seems, in that last paragraph, your solution to everything just became a problem, your imagined utopia just became a dystopia. You solve it.

[OGIS]

The only reason deregulation fails is because regulation was attempted and people grew to depend on it. Both are attempts to manage the economy which is something we barely understand, so both are bound to be disasters.

The systemic points I made were actually in support of deregulation, but not of shortsighted and incomplete deregulation. Can you address that, rather than regurgitating tired old free market talking points that have actually never existed in the real world?

[OGIS]

In order to disagree you have to make an argument. You have just agreed the needed difference in kind, needed for your tipping point, is really a difference in degree, which is just logarithmic. The Industrial Revolution was as well just a difference in degree, it was revolutionary only in that is displace people from agriculture to manufacturing, just as now we're shifting to service in an information age.

Seems, in that last paragraph, your solution to everything just became a problem, your imagined utopia just became a dystopia. You solve it.

I imagine that one prairie dog said that to another as the incidence of burrow-destroying wagon wheel ruts, and then concrete roads, increased exponentially over the years.

I think part of the solution is government hyper-funding of community college and university education. But that has it's own set of major problems.

Perhaps we just need a good nuke war to clear out the excess.....

[OGIS]

This may be a bit off topic but the end result its about poverty.
I have been unfortunate to see alot of bad stuff and I paid attention to what I was looking at.

There are alot of very intelligent educated people that have a level of naivette because of things they dont teach you in classrooms and you wont experience it.

One of those is true inner city poverty, I mean deep insidious poverty based on ignorance.
I dont post about some of my experiences because they would come out as being racist to some and I dont want to give a false impression of myself.

There are many inner city blacks that cant write or read because they hardly if ever went to school. They have zero chance to emerge from that successful in any way. How do you fix it ?

As long as there are parents so strung out on drugs that its all the can care about, you will have kids not going to school, not having shoes to go to school with. If you dont LEARN you cant grow.

I am not making a liberal plea here to throw govt dollars at the problem. Im asking how in the world do you fix this. Giving the parents money feeds their drug habits. Ive seen this time and again.

I do not know. I clearly see where we as a society can be, but I don't see a way to get there except over many, many, many dead bodies.

My only suggestion is to start investing in the stocks of companies that make guillotines.

[Chris]

I imagine that one prairie dog said that to another as the incidence of burrow-destroying wagon wheel ruts, and then concrete roads, increased exponentially over the years.

I think part of the solution is government hyper-funding of community college and university education. But that has it's own set of major problems.

Perhaps we just need a good nuke war to clear out the excess.....


Now you're getting silly with prairie dogs.


I think part of the solution is government...

And as always, left, right, lib, con, Dem, Rep, the solution is always more government. :geez:

[OGIS]

I said: I think part of the solution is government...


And as always, left, right, lib, con, Dem, Rep, the solution is always more government. :geez:

Cut and paste and leave out important context and modifiers? For shame, Chris, that is beneath you. I expected more.

Full quote: "I think part of the solution is government hyper-funding of community college and university education. But that has it's own set of major problems."

[Chris]

I said: I think part of the solution is government...



Cut and paste and leave out important context and modifiers? For shame, Chris, that is beneath you. I expected more.

Full quote: "I think part of the solution is government hyper-funding of community college and university education. But that has it's own set of major problems."

And that part is the government. Always the government.

[OGIS]

And that part is the government. Always the government.

And, again, you evade.

sad.

[Chris]

And, again, you evade.

sad.

Ad hom=white flag.

[Bob]

You offer anecdotes. As with ghost stories and UFO sightings, they are not proof of validity. And they ignore that fact that the rules of the game are changing. The rise of the thinking machines is both a terrible threat and a wonderful opportunity, and your thinking, mired in the past, does not address any of that.

Jim Rohn teaches you were not born to stay poor.

The reason most poor are poor is they do not want wealth. Too bad too.

[Bob]

I said: I think part of the solution is government...



Cut and paste and leave out important context and modifiers? For shame, Chris, that is beneath you. I expected more.

Full quote: "I think part of the solution is government hyper-funding of community college and university education. But that has it's own set of major problems."

So, when Rohn teaches how to get wealth, you don't like it, yet if done in a community college, you like it done there? That is a question.

[Captain Obvious]

So, when Rohn teaches how to get wealth, you don't like it, yet if done in a community college, you like it done there? That is a question.

Not true.

Most people want wealth, so they vote democrat.

[Bob]

You offer anecdotes. As with ghost stories and UFO sightings, they are not proof of validity. And they ignore that fact that the rules of the game are changing. The rise of the thinking machines is both a terrible threat and a wonderful opportunity, and your thinking, mired in the past, does not address any of that.

One field is wide open. Sales. Many products end up in your hands and along the way they were sold by people. Even machines have not taken over sales industries.

You won't see robots soon showing you homes to buy or rent either.

[Bob]

Not true.

Most people want wealth, so they vote democrat.

I know why they vote for Democrats but that is the worst way to vote when you want a better than avg. living.

[nathanbforrest45]

It's actually completely the opposite from what you just wrote.


Yes, of course you are correct. The way to give people opportunities to climb out of poverty is to create restrictive and stifling rules that only the multinationals can meet. Government control of the economy works so well in Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela we should implement it here immediately.

[Mac-7]

The end of what? The US economy?

That and the Church Age.

[whatukno]

Yes, of course you are correct. The way to give people opportunities to climb out of poverty is to create restrictive and stifling rules that only the multinationals can meet. Government control of the economy works so well in Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela we should implement it here immediately.

You know, you don't have to just go from one extreme to the other right? Large corporations need regulations so that they just don't screw everything up in an endless attempt at getting more wealth.

What we need to do is start levying massive tariffs on goods made overseas by companies headquartered in the US. If they don't like it, they can either move their manufacturing here to the states, or leave the country and we can then not give them licence to import into the US.

The ones that don't need as many regulations is small business, the actual backbone of this economy. These people need every advantage they can get in order to be able to compete with larger firms.

[OGIS]

Yes, of course you are correct. The way to give people opportunities to climb out of poverty is to create restrictive and stifling rules that only the multinationals can meet. Government control of the economy works so well in Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela we should implement it here immediately.

Here in the US, most of the restrictive laws we see are based on crony capitalism at its finest. Established firms "socialize" their costs of dealing with competition by hiring a government gun to prevent the competition. But then, of course, these are often the first groups to whine when the State attempts to establish other regulations that (gasp!) affect them.