America's Most Segregated Cities

[Ransom]

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/08/19/americas-most-segregated-cities/4/

1. Cleveland
2. Detroit
3. Milwaukee

Bastions of GOP racist types...no doubt.

Boston also makes the list.

Liberal success at social re-engineering.

[Captain Obvious]

I hear people talk about "segregation" today, both races, as if social segregation was involuntary.

[Mister D]

I hear people talk about "segregation" today, both races, as if social segregation was involuntary.

Exactly. Polly was talking about school "resegregation" like it was ever desegregated and like it's a horrible development.

[Captain Obvious]

Exactly. Polly was talking about school "resegregation" like it was ever desegregated and like it's a horrible development.

That's Progress at it's finest.

People stay with like kind for a reason, so let's force them to go to school in neighborhoods they clearly didn't want to be in.

And wonder why violent crime is up in schools.

[Ransom]

Exactly. Polly was talking about school "resegregation" like it was ever desegregated and like it's a horrible development.

I'd consider the source on that one, D. this ain't exactly a NASA facility, we ain't got that many rocket scientists. .

[Mister D]

That's Progress at it's finest.

People stay with like kind for a reason, so let's force them to go to school in neighborhoods they clearly didn't want to be in.

And wonder why violent crime is up in schools.

That progressivism for you.

[Safety]

Yea....policies that forced a group of people to be be in one area had no impact on the way the make up of the cities look today. :rollseyes:

[texan]

Blue state/city, blue state/city, and blue state/city.

The dems have the greatest charade ever running............

[Captain Obvious]

Yea....policies that forced a group of people to be be in one area had no impact on the way the make up of the cities look today. :rollseyes:

Policies?

[exotix]

http://247wallst.com/special-report/2015/08/19/americas-most-segregated-cities/4/

1. Cleveland
2. Detroit
3. Milwaukee

Bastions of GOP racist types...no doubt.

Boston also makes the list.

Liberal success at social re-engineering.What I wouldn't give to see Trump campaign in the 'hood.

[Captain Obvious]

What I wouldn't give to see Trump campaign in the 'hood.

Or any of them.

[Safety]

Policies?
Redlining, back in the sixties. Just one of many.

[Captain Obvious]

Redlining, back in the sixties. Just one of many.

Over a half decade ago?

[Mister D]

Yea....policies that forced a group of people to be be in one area had no impact on the way the make up of the cities look today. :rollseyes:

Redlining? You mean white flight.

[Safety]

Redlining? You mean white flight.
No, I mean government policies that prevented negros from aquiring home loans, or being able to purchase a home outside the redline area. White flight came later.

Over a half decade ago?
My parents experienced it, did yours? Does time even come into play if people still want to pretend it never happened?

[Captain Obvious]

No, I mean government policies that prevented negros from aquiring home loans, or being able to purchase a home outside the redline area. White flight came later.

My parents experienced it, did yours? Does time even come into play if people still want to pretend it never happened?

I never heard of it TBH, had to google it just now.

I'll ask my dad if he's ever heard of it.

[Mister D]

No, I mean government policies that prevented $#@!s from aquiring home loans, or being able to purchase a home outside the redline area. White flight came later.

My parents experienced it, did yours? Does time even come into play if people still want to pretend it never happened?

My parents experienced White Flight. Apparently, blacks were not prevented from moving into their neighborhoods so, when the neighborhood started to change, they left. I have no doubt that redlining existed and still exists informally but redlining would have prevented White Flight. It didn't.

[The Xl]

A lot of segregation is via economics. I'm not saying that some don't self segregate, it does happen, but their are other variables at play too

[Captain Obvious]

A lot of segregation is via economics. I'm not saying that some don't self segregate, it does happen, but their are other variables at play too

Or does one condition feed off of the other?

[Mister D]

A lot of segregation is via economics. I'm not saying that some don't self segregate, it does happen, but their are other variables at play too

Funny how that correlates so closely with race.

[Safety]

My parents experienced White Flight. Apparently, blacks were not prevented from moving into their neighborhoods so, when the neighborhood started to change, they left. I have no doubt that redlining existed and still exists informally but redlining would have prevented White Flight. It didn't.
Well, you know they outlawed the policy of redlining once the civil rights act was implemented.

[Mister D]

Well, you know they outlawed the policy of redlining once the civil rights act was implemented.

And whites left neighborhoods that started to darken so segregation is clearly a voluntary phenomenon.

[Safety]

I never heard of it TBH, had to google it just now.

I'll ask my dad if he's ever heard of it.
Sure, don't be surprised if a good portion of the population, that never had it applied to, would know or care about it. Especially if a forum like this one, represents a microcosm of the US population as a whole.

[Safety]

Funny how that correlates so closely with race.
How is that surprising? Given how hard some have tried, to make sure a group of people never assimilate into their culture.

[Captain Obvious]

Sure, don't be surprised if a good portion of the population, that never had it applied to, would know or care about it. Especially if a forum like this one, represents a microcosm of the US population as a whole.

I don't think that's a fair statement so much that "something that is so irrelevant that some people of age have no familiarity with it".

If this were something even remotely on the grid at this point I think I would have at least heard of it.

[Cigar]

http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors7/rahm-emanuel-politician-quote-theres-no-safe-republican-district-you.jpg

[Mister D]

So in effect, after almost 50 years of a ban on redlining America is still segregated. Perhaps as segregated as it has ever been.

[Safety]

And whites left neighborhoods that started to darken so segregation is clearly a voluntary phenomenon.
Sure they did, that mindset is still prevalent today. Now, that is funny.

[Mister D]

How is that surprising? Given how hard some have tried, to make sure a group of people never assimilate into their culture.

1. It's not surprising at all.

2. The black man should not have to assimilate into my culture. Nor does he want to.

Edit in bold

[Mister D]

Sure they did, that mindset is still prevalent today. Now, that is funny.

That was my point! It's not any policy. It's the willful choices people make about where they live.

[Safety]

I don't think that's a fair statement so much that "something that is so irrelevant that some people of age have no familiarity with it".

If this were something even remotely on the grid at this point I think I would have at least heard of it.
I don't necessarily agree, there have been posts, where if someone who was familiar with the history of blacks, wouldn't call people who are knowledgeable of it, "white guilt" or "progressives".

[Safety]

So in effect, after almost 50 years of a ban on redlining America is still segregated. Perhaps as segregated as it has ever been.
I have never seen or heard a limit to how long it would take before the effects of what blacks experienced as a group, would be negated. You have a time-frame in mind?

[Safety]

1. It's not surprising at all.

2. The black man should not have to assimilate into my culture. Nor does he want to.

Edit in bold
But it's ok for other races to? So, all the talk about blacks being in the condition they are in, due to not assimilating into the American culture is hot air? When the topic of how every other culture was allowed to assimilate and did, why can't blacks do the same, is more hot air?

[Safety]

That was my point! It's not any policy. It's the willful choices people make about where they live.
How wilful was it when the parties that be, said "no", not because of something one did or didn't do, but because they were black?

[PolWatch]

Voluntary segregation? I guess that the phenomenon could be called voluntary. I think it comes down to people not wanting to live in an area where they are not wanted. Why would people invest their money to buy a house where they are afraid for their children? I remember when black & white parents were scrambling to find ways to keep their children from being bused into schools where they were not wanted. It was not unique to either race.

[Mister D]

Voluntary segregation? I guess that the phenomenon could be called voluntary. I think it comes down to people not wanting to live in an area where they are not wanted. Why would people invest their money to buy a house where they are afraid for their children? I remember when black & white parents were scrambling to find ways to keep their children from being bused into schools where they were not wanted. It was not unique to either race.

It can't be called anything but voluntary.

[Mister D]

How wilful was it when the parties that be, said "no", not because of something one did or didn't do, but because they were black?

The parties that be said "no" to an increasingly mixed neighborhood. They moved. I'd say that was very willful.

[Cigar]

:grin:

[Mister D]

But it's ok for other races to? So, all the talk about blacks being in the condition they are in, due to not assimilating into the American culture is hot air? When the topic of how every other culture was allowed to assimilate and did, why can't blacks do the same, is more hot air?

I don't think anyone should have to assimilate. Integrate, sure. Assimilate, no. In any case, the biggest obstacle to black integration or assimilation remains blacks themselves.

[Mister D]

I have never seen or heard a limit to how long it would take before the effects of what blacks experienced as a group, would be negated. You have a time-frame in mind?

White Flight entails white people picking their shit up and moving. It's not all about you, Safety. :wink:

[Safety]

The parties that be said "no" to an increasingly mixed neighborhood. They moved. I'd say that was very willful.

Pretty much, it's almost as if those folks didn't want to live next to other "American citizens".... like, the code words used today when wanting to differentiate what a true "true patriot" is vs "half kenyan" and such.

At least people are not crazy to think racism is so ingrained in the GOP than members of the GOP party want to admit. Then again, that's why blacks, hispanics, Asians, Indians, and "white guilt libs" pretty much know why they vote against them.....

[del]

Policies?

yeah, policies

specifically fha policies

you should edumicate yourself

[del]

Redlining, back in the sixties. Just one of many.

redlining goes back to the inception of the fha in the 30s

[del]

Well, you know they outlawed the policy of redlining once the civil rights act was implemented.

fair housing act, actually

[del]

I don't think that's a fair statement so much that "something that is so irrelevant that some people of age have no familiarity with it".

If this were something even remotely on the grid at this point I think I would have at least heard of it.

think again

[Safety]

I don't think anyone should have to assimilate. Integrate, sure. Assimilate, no. In any case, the biggest obstacle to black integration or assimilation remains blacks themselves.

From an outside looking in perspective, it would seem that way...,

[Captain Obvious]

yeah, policies

specifically fha policies

you should edumicate yourself

That was Safety 's job, all he did was give me a history lesson.

Kinda like what you're doing now.

[Safety]

White Flight entails white people picking their shit up and moving. It's not all about you, Safety. :wink:

I never alluded that it was.

[Mister D]

Pretty much, it's almost as if those folks didn't want to live next to other "American citizens".... like, the code words used today when wanting to differentiate what a true "true patriot" is vs "half kenyan" and such.

At least people are not crazy to think racism is so ingrained in the GOP than members of the GOP party want to admit. Then again, that's why blacks, hispanics, Asians, Indians, and "white guilt libs" pretty much know why they vote against them.....

People prefer their own, Safety. It's not good. It's not bad. It just is.

If racism was anywhere near as ingrained in the GOP as some claim this would simply not be the country it is today.

[Mister D]

From an outside looking in perspective, it would seem that way...,

Give us the insiders perspective.

[Safety]

That was Safety 's job, all he did was give me a history lesson.

Kinda like what you're doing now.

It was not my intention to give a history lesson, I guess I had high expectations of things being understood at face value.

[zelmo1234]

Yea....policies that forced a group of people to be be in one area had no impact on the way the make up of the cities look today. :rollseyes:

You don't think those policies were an accident do you? This is exactly what the Democrats have been working toward for years. or did you not notice that they are all cities that have been under democratic oppression for decades?

[Safety]

People prefer their own, Safety. It's not good. It's not bad. It just is.

If racism was anywhere near as ingrained in the GOP as some claim this would simply not be the country it is today.

People do prefer their own, but quantify what "their own" is. Because Irish were not considered "their own", and Italians were not considered "their own", but I don't recall anyone kicking them out of "their" neighborhoods.

What I mean about kicking out, is "telling them they aren't welcome"

[Safety]

Give us the insiders perspective.

I thought that's what I've been doing this whole time. :grin:

[Safety]

You don't think those policies were an accident do you? This is exactly what the Democrats have been working toward for years. or did you not notice that they are all cities that have been under democratic oppression for decades?

Yea, this isn't about democrats, this is about ingrained racism.

[Safety]

fair housing act, actually

Thanks, had a brain fart.

[Mister D]

People do prefer their own, but quantify what "their own" is. Because Irish were not considered "their own", and Italians were not considered "their own", but I don't recall anyone kicking them out of "their" neighborhoods.

What I mean about kicking out, is "telling them they aren't welcome"

The Italians and Irish quickly adopted the mores and culture of White natives because...well they're Europeans. They became indistinguishable from natives in terms of education and income in a couple generations. Anyway, natives did avoid Irish and Italian neighborhoods particularly in the early years because they could be dangerous and they were usually poor and filthy. NYC, for example, had predominantly Irish and Italian neighborhoods for many years. Spanish Harlem used to be Italian Harlem if I'm not mistaken.

[Mister D]

I thought that's what I've been doing this whole time. :grin:

Well better you than Cigar by a factor of about 1000%

[PolWatch]

Yea, this isn't about democrats, this is about ingrained racism.

well, there ya go....you obviously don't understand that racism is by political party....the same as morality, education & bad breath. :rollseyes:

[zelmo1234]

Yea, this isn't about democrats, this is about ingrained racism.

It is the same thing, they just had really good PR people

[zelmo1234]

well, there ya go....you obviously don't understand that racism is by political party....the same as morality, education & bad breath. :rollseyes:

Says the person that believes Republican's are racist?

[Safety]

redlining goes back to the inception of the fha in the 30s

Just like the G.I bill helped so many white solders after WWII, but refused to let blacks take advantage of it, which equated to nothing less than Affirmative Action for whites. Which allowed them to purchase homes, and go to school to get a good job, etc. But yet we hear so much about whining about Affirmative Action for blacks.

[del]

That was @Safety (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1226) 's job, all he did was give me a history lesson.

Kinda like what you're doing now.

can't make you think, bubba

[Captain Obvious]

can't make you think, bubba

From your vantage point I suppose it seems that way.

[Mister D]

Just like the G.I bill helped so many white solders after WWII, but refused to let blacks take advantage of it, which equated to nothing less than Affirmative Action for whites. Which allowed them to purchase homes, and go to school to get a good job, etc. But yet we hear so much about whining about Affirmative Action for blacks.

The GI Bill was less effective for blacks because it was administered locally which meant problems as far as the pre-CRA south was concerned. Discrimination, however, was not built into the bill.

[del]

Just like the G.I bill helped so many white solders after WWII, but refused to let blacks take advantage of it, which equated to nothing less than Affirmative Action for whites. Which allowed them to purchase homes, and go to school to get a good job, etc. But yet we hear so much about whining about Affirmative Action for blacks.

it went beyond redlining for mortgages- it was also a part of the guaranteed lending to developers like at levittown.

i

[Safety]

It is the same thing, they just had really good PR people

The members I'm debating in this thread that advocates people should only stay around people who are like them, are democrats? That the issues in this country are because people are allowed to move wherever they please now, and "other" people move away because they are not "like" them are democrats?

FFS.

[PolWatch]

Says the person that believes Republican's are racist?

could you provide proof of what I believe instead of just your WAG?

[Ransom]

Says the person that believes Republican's are racist?

True, she walks in lockstep with the hard left on most issues.

[Ransom]

These cities mostly run by Democrats.....thus these segregation numbers cannot be the result of racism.

I was surprised New Orleans wasn't on the list, bet pre-2006 it would have been

[Ransom]

Thanks, had a brain fart.

Full of hot air not really the way to proceed through life, you could always try getting educated. Perhaps the gas problem would go away....at least lessen.

Oh well, until then, you wrote this, you can live with it.

[Safety]

The GI Bill was less effective for blacks because it was administered locally which meant problems as far as the pre-CRA south was concerned. Discrimination, however, was not built into the bill.

Kinda like we see in some instances today with some policies that are not necessarily discriminatory in nature, but the people overseeing the application make it so.

[Safety]

Full of hot air not really the way to proceed through life, you could always try getting educated. Perhaps the gas problem would go away....at least lessen.

Oh well, until then, you wrote this, you can live with it.

That's nice, hoss.

[Ransom]

That's nice, hoss.

I'm just glad you cleared this up for us, most people just thought you were talking out your ass.

Now come to find out it's 'brain farting.'

Same thing, no?

[Ethereal]

It's a valid point.

Almost all of the problems that Democrats claim to be fighting against - crushing poverty, lack of education, gun crime, racial and income inequality, etc. - are almost always the worst in their own political jurisdictions, in places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, NYC, etc.

That isn't to say Republicans don't share blame for the dismal outcomes in Democrat municipalities. The Republicans' ardent support for the federal war on drugs contributes greatly to the plight of urban communities all over America, but the Democrats have been, for the most part, willing and eager partners in this unlawful and monstrous war.

[Ethereal]

I hear people talk about "segregation" today, both races, as if social segregation was involuntary.

No doubt there is some voluntary segregation among nominal racial classes, and it is not necessarily detrimental or unfair, but it is hard to deny that some of the segregation is due to governmental pressures and inducements that are prejudicial and unfair.

[Captain Obvious]

No doubt there is some voluntary segregation among nominal racial classes, and it is not necessarily detrimental or unfair, but it is hard to deny that some of the segregation is due to governmental pressures and inducements that are prejudicial and unfair.

Give me an example.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just asked this question already and only got a couple of history lessons.

[Ethereal]

Pretty much, it's almost as if those folks didn't want to live next to other "American citizens".... like, the code words used today when wanting to differentiate what a true "true patriot" is vs "half kenyan" and such.

At least people are not crazy to think racism is so ingrained in the GOP than members of the GOP party want to admit. Then again, that's why blacks, hispanics, Asians, Indians, and "white guilt libs" pretty much know why they vote against them.....

Ironically enough, the phenomenon of "white flight" came about because of a massive post-war migration of southern blacks to northern cities, the same northern cities who allegedly fought and died to liberate African slaves in America.

In other words, the northern cities who fed the war between the northern and southern states were willing to fight and die to liberate African slaves, but they were not willing to live side-by-side with them in peaceful coexistence.

[The Xl]

Funny how that correlates so closely with race.

If you don't have money, then what can you do?

As far as the insinuation that most blacks are poor, that's another topic for another thread.

[Ethereal]

Give me an example.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just asked this question already and only got a couple of history lessons.

History has an undeniable effect on the present, so I'm not sure why you would automatically discount historical factors. Technically speaking, what happened a few minutes ago is "history", insofar as it happened in the past. The long history of institutionalized racism in America helped to shape the present landscape. A specific example, if you're looking for that, is the ongoing federal drug war, which disparately impacts urban black communities, and whose original intent was racist in nature. That's not to say that the federal war on drugs doesn't negatively effect white communities, as well. It does. But the intensity of the focus and prosecution of the federal war on drugs in black communities has been especially severe and oppressive.

[Ethereal]

People do prefer their own, but quantify what "their own" is. Because Irish were not considered "their own", and Italians were not considered "their own", but I don't recall anyone kicking them out of "their" neighborhoods.

What I mean about kicking out, is "telling them they aren't welcome"

I think the nativists were pretty explicit about the Irish not being welcome!

[Captain Obvious]

History has an undeniable effect on the present, so I'm not sure why you would automatically discount historical factors. Technically speaking, what happened a few minutes ago is "history", insofar as it happened in the past. The long history of institutionalized racism in America helped to shape the present landscape. A specific example, if you're looking for that, is the ongoing federal drug war, which disparately impacts urban black communities, and whose original intent was racist in nature. That's not to say that the federal war on drugs doesn't negatively effect white communities, as well. It does. But the intensity of the focus and prosecution of the federal war on drugs in black communities has been especially severe and oppressive.

No, I don't discount that history btw, the other two just fumbled around to fall far short of that point.

But these at this point are all soft influences, societal discrimination that is certainly subjective. The argument is - is segregation voluntary or involuntary and while I think these points INFLUENCE the choice to live segregated or desegregated I don't think they're tangible evidence of forced (involuntary) segregation.

IMHO

[The Xl]

People identify and associate with "their own," but that isn't just limited to race, and race may matter little or not at all to some, depending on the interests, morals, and perspectives of a person. Race, ethnicity, socioeconomics, religion, morals, intellect, hobbies, sports, culture, language, etc, are all things that people can identify with. Some people largely identify by race, others don't care and identity by one of the listed qualities, or perhaps, a quality not listed.

[Ethereal]

No, I don't discount that history btw, the other two just fumbled around to fall far short of that point.

But these at this point are all soft influences, societal discrimination that is certainly subjective. The argument is - is segregation voluntary or involuntary and while I think these points INFLUENCE the choice to live segregated or desegregated I don't think they're tangible evidence of forced (involuntary) segregation.

IMHO

Even the whitest and blackest communities in America, respectively, retain some level of racial diversity, and I've personally experienced this in growing up in white suburban community outside of Chicago. A black family lived inside our lily white subdivision and they were successful at integrating and assimilating into the community. To the extent that they had issues related to their race, it was because certain whites living in the neighborhood chose to make it an issue, not because it really was an issue, so I don't see why whites and blacks couldn't live side-by-side if certain artificial psychological barriers were dissolved or remedied.

[Mister D]

People identify and associate with "their own," but that isn't just limited to race, and race may matter little or not at all to some, depending on the interests, morals, and perspectives of a person. Race, ethnicity, socioeconomics, religion, morals, intellect, hobbies, sports, culture, language, etc, are all things that people can identify with. Some people largely identify by race, others don't care and identity by one of the listed qualities, or perhaps, a quality not listed.

I don't know anyone who identifies by race but most of the white folks I know live in largely white communities. That most likely includes most of the membership here.

[The Xl]

I don't know anyone who identifies by race but most of the white folks I know live in largely white communities. That most likely includes most of the membership here.

And is that because they don't want to live with black people specifically, or because they don't want to live in a poor area?

[kilgram]

An hispanic is white or what? :)

[Captain Obvious]

Even the whitest and blackest communities in America, respectively, retain some level of racial diversity, and I've personally experienced this in growing up in white suburban community outside of Chicago. A black family lived inside our lily white subdivision and they were successful at integrating and assimilating into the community. To the extent that they had issues related to their race, it was because certain whites living in the neighborhood chose to make it an issue, not because it really was an issue, so I don't see why whites and blacks couldn't live side-by-side if certain artificial psychological barriers were dissolved or remedied.

Cool, and I don't disagree. Tangent to the point too, sort of.

Again, that black family chose to live in your lily white neighborhood, no? Nobody forced them to live there.

And vice versa, that went without saying actually. The point was voluntary and involuntary segregation.

Where the tangent intersects though is class. Increase the class of races and diversity becomes a whole lot easier.

[Captain Obvious]

An hispanic is white or what? :)

Cigar giving you language lessons?

[kilgram]

Cigar giving you language lessons?
No. It is something I've wanted to ask from I read some news un Spain about the Anglosaxon obsession with race.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

[Captain Obvious]

No. It is something I've wanted to ask from I read some news un Spain about the Anglosaxon obsession with race.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

Trick is forming complete and coherent sentences, otherwise nobody knows what the fuck you're talking about.

[Ethereal]

Cool, and I don't disagree. Tangent to the point too, sort of.

Again, that black family chose to live in your lily white neighborhood, no? Nobody forced them to live there.

And vice versa, that went without saying actually. The point was voluntary and involuntary segregation.

Where the tangent intersects though is class. Increase the class of races and diversity becomes a whole lot easier.

The biggest reason why they were able to live there is because they could afford to live there. Poor blacks (and whites) don't have that option available to them, so they are effectively stuck in poor communities. To some extent, the relatively greater impoverishment of blacks is due to the disparate and severe enforcement of federal drug laws in their communities. Essentially, they are stuck in a vicious cycle that traps them in impoverished neighborhoods. If that coercive and racial government policy were abolished or at least moderated to some extent, I think you would see more urban blacks moving into affluent neighborhoods like the one I grew up in.

[Ethereal]

No. It is something I've wanted to ask from I read some news un Spain about the Anglosaxon obsession with race.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

Isn't is racial to use the term "Anglosaxon" to describe other people?

[Mister D]

And is that because they don't want to live with black people specifically, or because they don't want to live in a poor area?

I haven't taken a poll but a desire to avoid blacks generally is historically demonstrable.

[kilgram]

Isn't is racial to use the term "Anglosaxon" to describe other people?
Cultural

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

[Captain Obvious]

The biggest reason why they were able to live there is because they could afford to live there. Poor blacks (and whites) don't have that option available to them, so they are effectively stuck in poor communities. To some extent, the relatively greater impoverishment of blacks is due to the disparate and severe enforcement of federal drug laws in their communities. Essentially, they are stuck in a vicious cycle that traps them in impoverished neighborhoods. If that coercive and racial government policy were abolished or at least moderated to some extent, I think you would see more urban blacks moving into affluent neighborhoods like the one I grew up in.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Racism and bigotry are part of this, I agree. There are varying differing opinions on how much influence there is here also.

Liberalism, progressivism and democracy all have not helped the black community's success either.

[zelmo1234]

I think that E hits on the most important point and that is economics. Poor communities struggle to break the cycle of poverty and for all the lip service politicians give these citizens, nothing real ever happens to effect that change. In my opinion that is because of dependency, not only on government social programs, but here is where I disagree with E and that is drug use and dependency.

While the prosecution is tremendously lopsided and concentrated in the urban areas, the effects of people that use drugs can be witnessed in all areas. It is just not conducive to finding, keeping and holding a job, not to mention the expense of drug use. and of course I include Alcohol in that category as well

Real change is possible in the areas of Education, Job creation and community improvement, but not if political parties are not willing to give up the status quo

[del]

From your vantage point I suppose it seems that way.

from any vantage point it is that way

i can't make you think

*shrug

i'll endeavor to persevere

[Common]

It has nothing to do with Liberal Social engineering what a ridiculous crock of shit.
Heres the real deal, up until the 60s the cities were mostly white working class because there were many factory opportunities inside the city or right outside. When all the factories left the white working class left and what was left was the very poor and the on other side of town the very rich.
Its all about economics

[zelmo1234]

It has nothing to do with Liberal Social engineering what a ridiculous crock of $#@!.
Heres the real deal, up until the 60s the cities were mostly white working class because there were many factory opportunities inside the city or right outside. When all the factories left the white working class left and what was left was the very poor and the on other side of town the very rich.
Its all about economics

exactly, but the solutions to correct the problem with welfare programs, government dependency and instituting social promotion school systems rather than performance based education have gone a long way to expanding the problem, rather than correcting it.

[Safety]

No, I don't discount that history btw, the other two just fumbled around to fall far short of that point.

But these at this point are all soft influences, societal discrimination that is certainly subjective. The argument is - is segregation voluntary or involuntary and while I think these points INFLUENCE the choice to live segregated or desegregated I don't think they're tangible evidence of forced (involuntary) segregation.

IMHO

Not agreeing to what was posted does not equate to fumbling around. Let me know what was not explicitly clear, and I'll reiterate.

[Captain Obvious]

Not agreeing to what was posted does not equate to fumbling around. Let me know what was not explicitly clear, and I'll reiterate.

Finished with this one, already smoked the cigarette.

[The Xl]

I haven't taken a poll but a desire to avoid blacks generally is historically demonstrable.

Do wealthy whites gtfo when rowdy blacks move in? Maybe. Is that because they're black though? I don't see white or black people of at least average socioeconomic status knocking themselves over to live with white trash either...

[Safety]

Ironically enough, the phenomenon of "white flight" came about because of a massive post-war migration of southern blacks to northern cities, the same northern cities who allegedly fought and died to liberate African slaves in America.

In other words, the northern cities who fed the war between the northern and southern states were willing to fight and die to liberate African slaves, but they were not willing to live side-by-side with them in peaceful coexistence.

"White flight" was not only happening in the north. It was the phenomenon of leaving the inner cities after blacks were only allowed sanctuary there. There was no massive exodus to the north other than people who could leave to live with relatives did so, many stayed in the south because that's where their roots were. Are you suggesting that white flight only took place in the north?

This is also ignoring the elephant in the room in regards to our previous discussions about how the 2% of slave owners and "VP of the confederacy" were able to get southern folks riled up enough to fight a war.

[Safety]

Finished with this one, already smoked the cigarette.

If you say so.

[Captain Obvious]

Do wealthy whites gtfo when rowdy blacks move in? Maybe. Is that because they're black though? I don't see white or black people of at least average socioeconomic status knocking themselves over to live with white trash either...

That's an enigma.

No, I'm not being a smartass either.

[The Xl]

That's an enigma.

No, I'm not being a smartass either.
I'm asking. Is the data any different for lower class whites? Is there low class white flight too?

As far as blacks go, I'd imagine the flight is mostly because of the behavior of the people moving in, not the race. Least I'd hope so.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm asking. Is the data any different for lower class whites? Is there low class white flight too?

I'd say no

[Mister D]

Do wealthy whites gtfo when rowdy blacks move in? Maybe. Is that because they're black though? I don't see white or black people of at least average socioeconomic status knocking themselves over to live with white trash either...

My parents were working class. Look, I'm just stating the obvious. We see it all over the country. Not sure why it gets everyone knickers twisted.

[Safety]

That's an enigma.

No, I'm not being a smartass either.

Thought the cig was smoked...oh well, let's continue then...


Now we're getting somewhere.

Racism and bigotry are part of this, I agree. There are varying differing opinions on how much influence there is here also.

Liberalism, progressivism and democracy all have not helped the black community's success either.

Tell me which ideology made it so that blacks gained equal representation in the eyes of the law? Here's a hint, check the outcome of the votes regarding the CRA when broken down from the north (liberalism) and south (conservatism). One can only progress towards success when allowed the opportunity to do so.

[Mister D]

I wouldn't know much about white trash. We have no such animal in these parts.

[Captain Obvious]

Thought the cig was smoked...oh well, let's continue then...



Tell me which ideology made it so that blacks gained equal representation in the eyes of the law? Here's a hint, check the outcome of the votes regarding the CRA when broken down from the north (liberalism) and south (conservatism). One can only progress towards success when allowed the opportunity to do so.

I dunno - your point, you tell me.

Not being a dick either, not sure I'm arguing the point you're trying to make, in fact I may have already made it.

[Captain Obvious]

I wouldn't know much about white trash. We have no such animal in these parts.

Yeah, that's where I got stuck on, I'm trying to figure out where our really poor are.

They moved out a long time ago and live in school buses in the deeps of WV I think, fucking cousins and distilling hay.

[Safety]

I'm asking. Is the data any different for lower class whites? Is there low class white flight too?

As far as blacks go, I'd imagine the flight is mostly because of the behavior of the people moving in, not the race. Least I'd hope so.

Check out the history in regards to what was set in place ever since slavery was abolished. Miscegenation, interracial marriage bans, Jim Crow, etc. all based upon race. So, while there are lower class whites, it would be different animal altogether, (at least in regards to comments made here) that race was a predominant issue in regards to what limit people are going to be accepted into society. In 2015, alot has progression has been made in disregarding race as a go to tool to be used in public policy, but to ignore that it played a very big part of seeing the inner cities as they are today would be disingenuous.

[Safety]

I dunno - your point, you tell me.

Not being a dick either, not sure I'm arguing the point you're trying to make, in fact I may have already made it.

You said I was giving you a history lesson, then you said that I was fumbling around, so I'm trying to see where the ball was dropped. We are talking why the cities are heavily segregated, I've given the premise behind the policies that started the ball rolling towards the reason why the cities are that way.

Is there another answer you are looking for?

[Captain Obvious]

You said I was giving you a history lesson, then you said that I was fumbling around, so I'm trying to see where the ball was dropped. We are talking why the cities are heavily segregated, I've given the premise behind the policies that started the ball rolling towards the reason why the cities are that way.

Is there another answer you are looking for?

No, I'm cool.

The recap was (I already said this too, I hate repeating shit unless it's funny stuff): I get that we can't discount this history, it's an influential factor, as is bigotry, as is racism, as is a whole lot of things. But still, ultimately, at this point in time segregation is largely if not entirely voluntary.

[Safety]

An hispanic is white or what? :)

Depends on where they hail from. I would think most people consider Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, and Cameron Diaz to be white, however, someone like David Ortiz would not be considered white.

[Safety]

No, I'm cool.

The recap was (I already said this too, I hate repeating shit unless it's funny stuff): I get that we can't discount this history, it's an influential factor, as is bigotry, as is racism, as is a whole lot of things. But still, ultimately, at this point in time segregation is largely if not entirely voluntary.

I think people settle for what they can get. When white flight took place, and blacks move into white neighborhoods today, it isn't because they are following whites, it's because that's where the best infrastructure to raise a family and work are. Follow the money.

[Captain Obvious]

I think people settle for what they can get. When white flight took place, and blacks move into white neighborhoods today, it isn't because they are following whites, it's because that's where the best infrastructure to raise a family and work are. Follow the money.
Safety - I still believe a couple things, one being our society promotes racial divide on a number of different levels. I also believe that, and this is true with anyone of any race, but if folks are provided with opportunities for education, training, self-sufficiency and quality of life then the racial divide narrows. Given all of the negative criteria holding all and individually each race back, I think overall our society enables poverty and dependence more than it provides for personal responsibility and gain.

[Safety]

Safety - I still believe a couple things, one being our society promotes racial divide on a number of different levels. I also believe that, and this is true with anyone of any race, but if folks are provided with opportunities for education, training, self-sufficiency and quality of life then the racial divide narrows. Given all of the negative criteria holding all and individually each race back, I think overall our society enables poverty and dependence more than it provides for personal responsibility and gain.

I understand that, and agree with it. My point in this thread has been to try to explain that some things are not as cut and dry as they seem. Does America need to hold people more accountable for their actions, absolutely. But on the same token, Americans need to come to an understanding that there are different types of Americans. While some may be easy to identify when the fuck-up more so than others, everyone should be afforded the opportunity to be able to make a name for them self and not be categorized by the melanin content of their skin. While I understand the mindset that, there are people who are descended from Europe and feel like they should be able to be isolated from those that don't share the same European traits as they do, I believe that it causes more divisiveness and resentment in a nation that is made up of more than just people from Europe. The same goes for any other group who feels like they would be better suited being isolated from others who are not like them.

I feel that we have a reached a point in this country where people can move away from the race discussion and more towards socioeconomic status, but only after understanding how things got to where they are today.

[Captain Obvious]

I understand that, and agree with it. My point in this thread has been to try to explain that some things are not as cut and dry as they seem. Does America need to hold people more accountable for their actions, absolutely. But on the same token, Americans need to come to an understanding that there are different types of Americans. While some may be easy to identify when the fuck-up more so than others, everyone should be afforded the opportunity to be able to make a name for them self and not be categorized by the melanin content of their skin. While I understand the mindset that, there are people who are descended from Europe and feel like they should be able to be isolated from those that don't share the same European traits as they do, I believe that it causes more divisiveness and resentment in a nation that is made up of more than just people from Europe. The same goes for any other group who feels like they would be better suited being isolated from others who are not like them.

I feel that we have a reached a point in this country where people can move away from the race discussion and more towards socioeconomic status, but only after understanding how things got to where they are today.

People, of all races, also need to be held accountable for who they are and what they do. They also need to be expected to be self sufficient and that's not happening to too large a degree.

Nor will it happen anytime soon, what candidate jockeying for votes is going to take this stance at this point?

[Safety]

People, of all races, also need to be held accountable for who they are and what they do. They also need to be expected to be self sufficient and that's not happening to too large a degree.

Nor will it happen anytime soon, what candidate jockeying for votes is going to take this stance at this point?

Yea, I said they need to be held more accountable (see below). Also, self sufficiency comes when there are jobs available to support it. One is proportionally dependent on the other.


I understand that, and agree with it. My point in this thread has been to try to explain that some things are not as cut and dry as they seem. Does America need to hold people more accountable for their actions, absolutely. But on the same token, Americans need to come to an understanding that there are different types of Americans. While some may be easy to identify when the fuck-up more so than others, everyone should be afforded the opportunity to be able to make a name for them self and not be categorized by the melanin content of their skin. While I understand the mindset that, there are people who are descended from Europe and feel like they should be able to be isolated from those that don't share the same European traits as they do, I believe that it causes more divisiveness and resentment in a nation that is made up of more than just people from Europe. The same goes for any other group who feels like they would be better suited being isolated from others who are not like them.

I feel that we have a reached a point in this country where people can move away from the race discussion and more towards socioeconomic status, but only after understanding how things got to where they are today.

[Dr. Who]

I hear people talk about "segregation" today, both races, as if social segregation was involuntary.
Actually it was. In the north, where there were no statist laws requiring segregation, it became an organic fact of life. Wherever blacks were able to afford to live, whites removed themselves, creating a situation of hyper-segregation. Blacks did not originally determine to live apart from whites, whites determined to live apart from blacks. As population pressures in inner-city neighborhoods resettled by blacks working in northern industry demanded expansion into other areas, white flight occurred and continues to occur. Poor blacks move of economic and practical necessity. Whites move away from those neighborhoods because...

[Mister D]

I understand that, and agree with it. My point in this thread has been to try to explain that some things are not as cut and dry as they seem. Does America need to hold people more accountable for their actions, absolutely. But on the same token, Americans need to come to an understanding that there are different types of Americans. While some may be easy to identify when the $#@!-up more so than others, everyone should be afforded the opportunity to be able to make a name for them self and not be categorized by the melanin content of their skin. While I understand the mindset that, there are people who are descended from Europe and feel like they should be able to be isolated from those that don't share the same European traits as they do, I believe that it causes more divisiveness and resentment in a nation that is made up of more than just people from Europe. The same goes for any other group who feels like they would be better suited being isolated from others who are not like them.

I feel that we have a reached a point in this country where people can move away from the race discussion and more towards socioeconomic status, but only after understanding how things got to where they are today.

You're turning the everyday reality of American life into something ideological and extreme. In reality, it's visceral and expressed far more often in actions rather than words. I live in isolation from no one. I would not mind you as a neighbor. I do think I would mind living in a community that is majority non-white. Does that me a bad person? Is it a character flaw?

[del]

no

yes

[Mister D]

Actually it was. In the north, where there were no statist laws requiring segregation, it became an organic fact of life. Wherever blacks were able to afford to live, whites removed themselves, creating a situation of hyper-segregation. Blacks did not originally determine to live apart from whites, whites determined to live apart from blacks. As population pressures in inner-city neighborhoods resettled by blacks working in northern industry demanded expansion into other areas, white flight occurred and continues to occur. Poor blacks move of economic and practical necessity. Whites move away from those neighborhoods because...

Because they want to. You just described a voluntary phenomenon (i.e. White Flight).

[Captain Obvious]

no

yes

http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/28khv-BydeY/hqdefault.jpg

[Safety]

You're turning the everyday reality of American life into something ideological and extreme. In reality, it's visceral and expressed far more often in actions rather than words. I live in isolation from no one. I would not mind you as a neighbor. I do think I would mind living in a community that is majority non-white. Does that me a bad person? Is it a character flaw?

Although we are speaking on an internet forum amongst members who regularly interact with each other, I was speaking in a more broad term with that statement. We have spoken about this in the past, regarding how we are more likely to intermingle in circles that share the same culture/mindset, I was not inferring that statement towards anyone here. Plus, I know you're from Jersey :grin:

[Dr. Who]

Because they want to. You just described a voluntary phenomenon (i.e. White Flight).
Yes, but it is voluntary upon whites, not a concerted effort to segregate by blacks. My only point here.

[Mister D]

Yes, but it is voluntary upon whites, not a concerted effort to segregate by blacks. My only point here.

Believe it or not, predominantly black middle class communities are not so rare anymore.

[Captain Obvious]

Yes, but it is voluntary upon whites, not a concerted effort to segregate by blacks. My only point here.

Then whites flew because they had no other choice.

I don't think that's an accurate depiction especially now, today, with AA and all the incentives for the black community to become educated and self-sufficient.

I think to a large part the black community "chooses" to stay poor and dysfunctional - because they can, we as a society enable them to and until that changes, until accountability is placed where it belongs, nothing will change. Ever.

IMHO

[Mister D]

Although we are speaking on an internet forum amongst members who regularly interact with each other, I was speaking in a more broad term with that statement. We have spoken about this in the past, regarding how we are more likely to intermingle in circles that share the same culture/mindset, I was not inferring that statement towards anyone here. Plus, I know you're from Jersey :grin:

I didn't take it as directed toward moi. :smiley: I just think my own sentiments are fairly common. Normative, actually. Progressives (not aimed at you) just can't seem to stomach the reality of human beings. Ultimately, I think that's a lot more dangerous than accepting the way people are.

[Mister D]

Then whites flew because they had no other choice.

I don't think that's an accurate depiction especially now, today, with AA and all the incentives for the black community to become educated and self-sufficient.

I think to a large part the black community "chooses" to stay poor and dysfunctional - because they can, we as a society enable them to and until that changes, until accountability is placed where it belongs, nothing will change. Ever.

IMHO

That a segment of the black community wallows in the mire is not in serious dispute.

[Dr. Who]

Believe it or not, predominantly black middle class communities are not so rare anymore.
Probably still a result of white flight. At one time if a middle class black was permitted to buy into a middle class white neighborhood, the neighborhood would attempt to coerce or bribe that black person to sell. They even created homeowners association rules forbidding the sale of properties to unwanted people. The government made that practice illegal so now rest of the neighborhood simply sells and moves away. Thus you have middle class black neighborhoods.

[Mister D]

Probably still a result of white flight. At one time if a middle class black was permitted to buy into a middle class white neighborhood, the neighborhood would attempt to coerce or bribe that black person to sell. They even created homeowners association rules forbidding the sale of properties to unwanted people. The government made that practice illegal so now rest of the neighborhood simply sells and moves away. Thus you have middle class black neighborhoods.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that blacks too prefer to be among their own as much as anyone else? We see it all the time. My favorite is when teachers and assorted educators lament the fact that school lunch rooms tend to be racially segregated. That is, the whites kids sit in their own groups, blacks theirs and so on. Are you seriously suggesting that if not for white attitudes everyone would love to mix?

[Dr. Who]

Then whites flew because they had no other choice.

I don't think that's an accurate depiction especially now, today, with AA and all the incentives for the black community to become educated and self-sufficient.

I think to a large part the black community "chooses" to stay poor and dysfunctional - because they can, we as a society enable them to and until that changes, until accountability is placed where it belongs, nothing will change. Ever.

IMHO
Let me use the but for test in this argument. But for the disinclination of whites to live in the same neighborhoods as blacks, those neighborhoods faced municipal discrimination - look it up, it happened. As a result all of the services in those neighborhoods supported by the municipalities declined as the tax base declined, including among others, education and medical care. As the educational levels dropped and medical care dropped, people in those neighborhoods were less qualified to work, leading inexorably to illiteracy, unemployment, chronic illness stemming from unhealthy diets and ultimately to perpetual welfare, poverty, criminal dysfunction and familial dysfunction.

[Mister D]

Let me use the but for test in this argument. But for the disinclination of whites to live in the same neighborhoods as blacks, those neighborhoods faced municipal discrimination - look it up, it happened. As a result all of the services in those neighborhoods supported by the municipalities declined as the tax base declined, including among others, education and medical care. As the educational levels dropped and medical care dropped, people in those neighborhoods were less qualified to work, leading inexorably to illiteracy, unemployment, chronic illness stemming from unhealthy diets and ultimately to perpetual welfare, poverty, criminal dysfunction and familial dysfunction.

Except that education is not funded by the local tax base in such areas but by the largely white suburban tax base. And it's quite generously funded which is a shame considering the dismal performance of black and brown students. That of course is the fauult of racism too I'd imagine...

[Captain Obvious]

Let me use the but for test in this argument. But for the disinclination of whites to live in the same neighborhoods as blacks, those neighborhoods faced municipal discrimination - look it up, it happened. As a result all of the services in those neighborhoods supported by the municipalities declined as the tax base declined, including among others, education and medical care. As the educational levels dropped and medical care dropped, people in those neighborhoods were less qualified to work, leading inexorably to illiteracy, unemployment, chronic illness stemming from unhealthy diets and ultimately to perpetual welfare, poverty, criminal dysfunction and familial dysfunction.

Agreed, "but for" advantages that the poor black community are offered that for example I as a white male aren't, they have the opportunities above and beyond the norm to turn that part of their lives around.

And again, most choose not to take advantage of them. So at the very least negligence is contributory.

[Mister D]

This canard about underfunded urban schools doesn't just survive it thrives.

[Dr. Who]

Why do you find it so hard to believe that blacks too prefer to be among their own as much as anyone else? We see it all the time. My favorite is when teachers and assorted educators lament the fact that school lunch rooms tend to be racially segregated. That is, the whites kids sit in their own groups, blacks theirs and so on. Are you seriously suggesting that if not for white attitudes everyone would love to mix?
Please Mister D, the lunch room does not parallel real estate. If someone who is black moves into a white neighborhood, there are not suddenly a preponderance of for sale signs for no reason. When the only people looking to buy the homes are black, does that not suggest that white people are suddenly avoiding the neighborhood? Black people are a minority - they are unable to take over neighborhoods in short order by choice. The choice has to be made by the majority. These neighborhoods are not moving from white to black over a generation but within less than ten years.

[Mister D]

Please Mister D, the lunch room does not parallel real estate. If someone who is black moves into a white neighborhood, there are not suddenly a preponderance of for sale signs for no reason. When the only people looking to buy the homes are black, does that not suggest that white people are suddenly avoiding the neighborhood? Black people are a minority - they are unable to take over neighborhoods in short order by choice. The choice has to be made by the majority. These neighborhoods are not moving from white to black over a generation but within less than ten years.

Of course it does. I brought up the self-segregation of the lunch room because it's a microcosm of the larger society. That's fact, not opinion. I asked another very simple question: why are you so reluctant to admit that blacks also prefer to be among their own? We see it all the time. Now I'll grant that my question was rhetorical. I already know the answer.

BTW, there are several largely ethnic, middle class communities in my area (e.g. Indian neighborhoods). These tiny minorities choose to live together because it's a more comfortable existence for them. No qualms here. You?

[Dr. Who]

Of course it does. I brought up the self-segregation of the lunch room because it's a microcosm of the larger society. That's fact, not opinion. I asked another very simple question: why are you so reluctant to admit that blacks also prefer to be among their own? We see it all the time. Now I'll grant that my question was rhetorical. I already know the answer.

BTW, there are several largely ethnic, middle class communities in my area (e.g. Indian neighborhoods). These tiny minorities choose to live together because it's a more comfortable existence for them. No qualms here. You?
I don't particularly care if ethnics chose to congregate primarily for access to commonly requested goods and services. I dislike the notion that some people are automatically and institutionally classed as undesirable and this trend continues despite the knowledge that the same people raised in different circumstances are contributors to society.

[Dr. Who]

Except that education is not funded by the local tax base in such areas but by the largely white suburban tax base. And it's quite generously funded which is a shame considering the dismal performance of black and brown students. That of course is the fauult of racism too I'd imagine...
You forget the state component to that equation. The states unduly favored the white suburbs in the municipal funding redistribution equation. Again - look it up.

[Dr. Who]

Agreed, "but for" advantages that the poor black community are offered that for example I as a white male aren't, they have the opportunities above and beyond the norm to turn that part of their lives around.

And again, most choose not to take advantage of them. So at the very least negligence is contributory.
The disadvantage of AA vs the disadvantage of 100 years of institutionalized racist municipal and state policies, never mind questionable federal policies...hmmm.

[Captain Obvious]

The disadvantage of AA vs the disadvantage of 100 years of institutionalized racist municipal and state policies, never mind questionable federal policies...hmmm.

Yeah, but...

Do extremes of today offset extremes in the other direction of generations ago?

And are they working?

[Dr. Who]

Of course it does. I brought up the self-segregation of the lunch room because it's a microcosm of the larger society. That's fact, not opinion. I asked another very simple question: why are you so reluctant to admit that blacks also prefer to be among their own? We see it all the time. Now I'll grant that my question was rhetorical. I already know the answer.

BTW, there are several largely ethnic, middle class communities in my area (e.g. Indian neighborhoods). These tiny minorities choose to live together because it's a more comfortable existence for them. No qualms here. You?
Do you really think those neighborhoods were easily wrenched from the clutches of white people who wanted to remain there? They turned over because of white flight. Too many Pakistanis, Indian, Chinese or middle eastern people were showing up in the hood and whites opted to relocate. There was suddenly a glut of available properties.

[Dr. Who]

Yeah, but...

Do extremes of today offset extremes in the other direction of generations ago?

And are they working?
Of course they are not working. The whole thing is dysfunctional, but people are not like equipment that can be discarded for a better model. The psychological damage has been done and it is being handed down generationally.

[Captain Obvious]

Of course they are not working. The whole thing is dysfunctional, but people are not like equipment that can be discarded for a better model. The psychological damage has been done and it is being handed down generationally.

To be honest, that sounds like nothing more than the same old lame excuse, refried and served on a different plate.

[Dr. Who]

To be honest, that sounds like nothing more than the same old lame excuse, refried and served on a different plate.
That is not a matter of throwing in the towel. It just means this situation has to be addressed differently than it has been in the past. Rather than assuming that the poor black population needs to be essentially quarantined and managed, perhaps an investment in good teachers, good programs and good role models would go a long way to changing the mindset of children and young adults. Advertisers use psychology on a daily basis to sell product. Why not use psychology for a more noble reason?

[Captain Obvious]

That is not a matter of throwing in the towel. It just means this situation has to be addressed differently than it has been in the past. Rather than assuming that the poor black population needs to be essentially quarantined and managed, perhaps an investment in good teachers, good programs and good role models would go a long way to changing the mindset of children and young adults. Advertisers use psychology on a daily basis to sell product. Why not use psychology for a more noble reason?

I agree.

Pampering and entitlement failed, accountability and access to real opportunity is what is needed.

In my humble, honest and generally 100% correct opinion that is.

[Ransom]

The disadvantage of AA vs the disadvantage of 100 years of institutionalized racist municipal and state policies, never mind questionable federal policies...hmmm.

How many of those 100 years have you actually lived here, thus witnessed what you claim here first hand? I mean........ municipal and state police forces, how many of these do you have experience with... first hand?

Oops

[Ransom]

That is not a matter of throwing in the towel. It just means this situation has to be addressed differently than it has been in the past. Rather than assuming that the poor black population needs to be essentially quarantined and managed, perhaps an investment in good teachers, good programs and good role models would go a long way to changing the mindset of children and young adults. Advertisers use psychology on a daily basis to sell product. Why not use psychology for a more noble reason?

You can look up US investments in education while you're at it and see what we spend per student versus oh say... Canada.

Oops again.

[Safety]

How many of those 100 years have you actually lived here, thus witnessed what you claim here first hand? I mean........ municipal and state police forces, how many of these do you have experience with... first hand?

Oops
I have witnessed it first hand, she is pretty spot on. Now is there anything else you plan on posting that addresses the topic, or are you content on continously trying to derail your own OP?

[Common]

exactly, but the solutions to correct the problem with welfare programs, government dependency and instituting social promotion school systems rather than performance based education have gone a long way to expanding the problem, rather than correcting it.

zelmo if theres no available means of employment does not alleviate the need for humans to have food and shelter. Of course theres a need for govt asst whenever people cant fare for themselfves.

Cities like Detroit have nothing and its not because of welfare or social programs, those programs are the result of the collapse of the auto industry in detroit, that not only caused an economic crash, but a middleclass exodus from the city.

[Mister D]

I don't particularly care if ethnics chose to congregate primarily for access to commonly requested goods and services. I dislike the notion that some people are automatically and institutionally classed as undesirable and this trend continues despite the knowledge that the same people raised in different circumstances are contributors to society.

They don't cluster for economic reasons. They cluster because human beings feel more comfortable among their own. Get used to segregation.

[Mister D]

You forget the state component to that equation. The states unduly favored the white suburbs in the municipal funding redistribution equation. Again - look it up.

The education of the children around here is paid for by our property taxes. The education of black and brown children from our cities is paid for by the state which is funded of course by a largely white tax base. Try again.

[Mister D]

Do you really think those neighborhoods were easily wrenched from the clutches of white people who wanted to remain there? They turned over because of white flight. Too many Pakistanis, Indian, Chinese or middle eastern people were showing up in the hood and whites opted to relocate. There was suddenly a glut of available properties.

If all you have to do is show up and whites leave, yeah, I'd say it was pretty easy. lol Anyway, there is plenty of real estate available but Indians, for example, cluster just like everyone else. Get used to it, Dr.

[Mister D]

Of course they are not working. The whole thing is dysfunctional, but people are not like equipment that can be discarded for a better model. The psychological damage has been done and it is being handed down generationally.

Are you saying that black degeneracy has a biological component?

[Mister D]

To be honest, that sounds like nothing more than the same old lame excuse, refried and served on a different plate.

That's because it is.

[Mister D]

That is not a matter of throwing in the towel. It just means this situation has to be addressed differently than it has been in the past. Rather than assuming that the poor black population needs to be essentially quarantined and managed, perhaps an investment in good teachers, good programs and good role models would go a long way to changing the mindset of children and young adults. Advertisers use psychology on a daily basis to sell product. Why not use psychology for a more noble reason?

Right. You haven't exhausted all the different ways you can blame white people.

[Cigar]

I have witnessed it first hand, she is pretty spot on. Now is there anything else you plan on posting that addresses the topic, or are you content on continously trying to derail your own OP?

Kinda ironic isn't it? :laugh:

They're packing their Guns and their Flags and they're Running, until they have to pack their Guns and Flags and Run again.

Run Run Run ... from Unarmed People ... I don't know about you, but that kinda sounds cowardly to me.

But hey, I don't Run from anyone so I wouldn't know much about White Flight.

[texan]

Blue state/city, blue state/city, and blue state/city.

The dems have the greatest charade ever running............


You want a poster child for the way not to act look at all black Baltimore. Such an embarrassment to America and to think the Mayor was a "rising star" in the national party. She couldn't run a convenience store.

"Hands Up Don't Shoot"

That is their police motto provided by leadership.

[Dr. Who]

How many of those 100 years have you actually lived here, thus witnessed what you claim here first hand? I mean........ municipal and state police forces, how many of these do you have experience with... first hand?

Oops
I said policies - not police. The policies are a matter of historical record.

[Dr. Who]

Are you saying that black degeneracy has a biological component?
No - I'm saying people are handing down a dysfunctional social order, family structure, dysfunctional ideas, beliefs, ways of thinking etc. They are not degenerate, they are just dysfunctional.

[Mister D]

No - I'm saying people are handing down a dysfunctional social order, family structure, dysfunctional ideas, beliefs, ways of thinking etc. They are not degenerate, they are just dysfunctional.

Are you saying black dysfunction has a biological component?

[Dr. Who]

Are you saying black dysfunction has a biological component?
No.

[Ransom]

I said policies - not police. The policies are a matter of historical record.

And I asked.....How many of those 100 years.....of this policy you speak to have you actually lived here, thus witnessed what you claim here first hand?

Thanks