Minimum Wage

[Green Arrow]

Minimum wage is one of those issues I'm on the fence on. For now, my position is that there should be a minimum wage, but it should only be instituted on the community level. Communities should set their own minimum wage based on their cost of living.

So, I want to hear arguments for and against the minimum wage. Please make your arguments in-depth and backed by facts. If it starts to devolve into attacks, TBs will follow.

[Hal Jordan]

Minimum wage is one of those issues I'm on the fence on. For now, my position is that there should be a minimum wage, but it should only be instituted on the community level. Communities should set their own minimum wage based on their cost of living.

So, I want to hear arguments for and against the minimum wage. Please make your arguments in-depth and backed by facts. If it starts to devolve into attacks, TBs will follow.

Community level is the only way to institute a minimum wage. If you base a minimum wage on national average of cost of living, some areas will earn far more than their cost of living, while other areas will have a greater amount of homelessness, because they simply can't get by on that.

[Common]

The federal minimum wage is is far to low to all the high cost of living areas in the US. The difference to what minimum wage buys in fla and in NY is huge. The south has a far lower COL than the northeast and other states and the difference is huge in housing costs and other aspects. Things like gasoline and autos are pretty close across the country I would think.

To understand the need for a minimum wage you have to be a person that can accept that many if no most business that does not require special training wont pay a penny more than they are made to pay. Retail Stores and Fast Food being the most notorious. Many of those make huge profits and can easily afford to pay more. They just wont, how many McDonalds do you see shuttered ? or Walmarts.

By keeping the minimum wage low that puts downward pressure on all other wages, so even those that do not pay minimum wage are all for it staying exactly where it is. The minimum wage has been estimated by some to be 12 yrs behind the col for a min wage. Some say even moreso.

I think any fair minded person would admit the current minimum wage for most of the country is absurdly low and needs a big boost.

Heres what I propose a reasonable Federal Minimum wage that can be adjusted upward at state level but NOT DOWN. I also thing that 15.00 an hour min wage across the board is too high for some areas of the country. I would like to see increases in the Federal min wage to 10.50 an hour. States can adjust it higher.

Some insinuate through their postings that min wage people are trash, that is so far from the truth. Theres trash sitting in CEO offices. Minimum wage workers are WORKERS, they get out of bed and work long hours in difficult jobs and are underpaid at this min wage. They deserve a fair shake

[GrassrootsConservative]

People should be free to work for as much or as little as they wish to ask for and for the point of being consistent (although it should be the logical inverse) employers should be free to offer to pay as much or as little as they wish as long as both parties are in agreement on what the wage is.

Who is government at any level to dictate who works and what they get paid?

[texan]

It should be a state issue in my opinion. I am ok with a raise to $9-10...........

[gamewell45]

Minimum wage is one of those issues I'm on the fence on. For now, my position is that there should be a minimum wage, but it should only be instituted on the community level. Communities should set their own minimum wage based on their cost of living.

So, I want to hear arguments for and against the minimum wage. Please make your arguments in-depth and backed by facts. If it starts to devolve into attacks, TBs will follow.

I would much prefer that the workers organize and collectively bargain for their wages as opposed to having the government act as "big brother" and raise wages. I think it would be better for the workers; this way it would give them a complete voice in the terms and conditions of their employment.

[Bob]

Watch this video on CSPAN

This has two arguing pro and con about the minimum wage. It is very very well done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_q-ePad3zo

[Cletus]

Wages should b a private matter between employer and employee. It is none of the government's business.

[Green Arrow]

Watch this video on CSPAN

This has two arguing pro and con about the minimum wage. It is very very well done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_q-ePad3zo

I'm not looking for C-Span's opinion, Bob. I'm looking for yours.

[Bob]

I'm not looking for C-Span's opinion, Bob. I'm looking for yours.

I gave my opinion by showing the video. But you have a point. I am totally with the woman and against the man.

[Hal Jordan]

The federal minimum wage is is far to low to all the high cost of living areas in the US. The difference to what minimum wage buys in fla and in NY is huge. The south has a far lower COL than the northeast and other states and the difference is huge in housing costs and other aspects. Things like gasoline and autos are pretty close across the country I would think.

To understand the need for a minimum wage you have to be a person that can accept that many if no most business that does not require special training wont pay a penny more than they are made to pay. Retail Stores and Fast Food being the most notorious. Many of those make huge profits and can easily afford to pay more. They just wont, how many McDonalds do you see shuttered ? or Walmarts.

By keeping the minimum wage low that puts downward pressure on all other wages, so even those that do not pay minimum wage are all for it staying exactly where it is. The minimum wage has been estimated by some to be 12 yrs behind the col for a min wage. Some say even moreso.

I think any fair minded person would admit the current minimum wage for most of the country is absurdly low and needs a big boost.

Heres what I propose a reasonable Federal Minimum wage that can be adjusted upward at state level but NOT DOWN. I also thing that 15.00 an hour min wage across the board is too high for some areas of the country. I would like to see increases in the Federal min wage to 10.50 an hour. States can adjust it higher.

Some insinuate through their postings that min wage people are trash, that is so far from the truth. Theres trash sitting in CEO offices. Minimum wage workers are WORKERS, they get out of bed and work long hours in difficult jobs and are underpaid at this min wage. They deserve a fair shake

But there are also parts of the country where the current amount is too high. It simply can not be administered at a national level.

[Hal Jordan]

It should be a state issue in my opinion. I am ok with a raise to $9-10...........

I think even the state level is far too high of a level. Some parts of New York are far cheaper than New York City, for example.

[Cthulhu]

I would much prefer that the workers organize and collectively bargain for their wages as opposed to having the government act as "big brother" and raise wages. I think it would be better for the workers; this way it would give them a complete voice in the terms and conditions of their employment.
This works for a while, at least until you have the ridiculous pension payments roll problem that some major automakers are experiencing.

Then it results in massive lay offs and a collapse of a company that made foolish bargains to greedy and u realistic workers.

It sets of a chain reaction felt decades later when it finally falls apart.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[Common]

But there are also parts of the country where the current amount is too high. It simply can not be administered at a national level.

Could you please show me where in the country exactly the current min wage is to high hal. I am not playing gamemanship here demanding proof, I am genuinely interested in seeing where in the country a 7.25 per hour, min wage making it to high.

[gamewell45]

This works for a while, at least until you have the ridiculous pension payments roll problem that some major automakers are experiencing.

Then it results in massive lay offs and a collapse of a company that made foolish bargains to greedy and u realistic workers.

It sets of a chain reaction felt decades later when it finally falls apart.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Most major corporations and almost all smaller businesses have terminated their defined pension plans and have instituted 401.k plans for their employees. Some unions maintain their own pension plans but that's about it.

[magicmike]

Minimum wage of $8-10 is fine for anyone else need 21. Above that age, I agree that a living wage based on the cost of living is OK.
If set by the county not state.

[Hal Jordan]

Could you please show me where in the country exactly the current min wage is to high hal. I am not playing gamemanship here demanding proof, I am genuinely interested in seeing where in the country a 7.25 per hour, min wage making it to high.

In Columbus, Kansas, you can support two people on one minimum wage job, with plenty of extra money for luxuries.

[Cletus]

Terms of employment are not any business of the government. When an employee seeks a job, he goes into it with some sense of what he believes his labor to be worth. When an employer offers a candidate a job, he does so with some sense of what that employee's labor is worth.

It is up to those parties to come to agreement. If they reach an understanding that is satisfactory to both of them, they form the employer/employee relationship. If one thinks the pay offer is too low or the expectations too high, they walk away and seek someone else to to fill the roles of employer/employee. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for government to be involved. Government cannot tell me what my labor is worth. Nor can it tell me, as an employer, what the labor of my employees is worth to me.

[Common]

In Columbus, Kansas, you can support two people on one minimum wage job, with plenty of extra money for luxuries.

You gotta be kidding me, Ive lived in high col places all my life NY NJ now fla of course. I cant conjure a single thought that would make me understand how two people can live on 7.25 an hour and have plenty of money for luxuries. ? I am NOT calling you a liar please dont think that, im just speechless.

Ill move there and live like the koch bros lol

[Hal Jordan]

You gotta be kidding me, Ive lived in high col places all my life NY NJ now fla of course. I cant conjure a single thought that would make me understand how two people can live on 7.25 an hour and have plenty of money for luxuries. ? I am NOT calling you a liar please dont think that, im just speechless.

Ill move there and live like the koch bros lol

It all depends on cost of living in the specific areas.

[Peter1469]

Some of the poor areas in New Orleans were an anomaly. Houses were paid off a generation or more ago and stay in the family. So the poor had that going for them. Of course Katrina ruined that for many of them.

[kilgram]

You gotta be kidding me, Ive lived in high col places all my life NY NJ now fla of course. I cant conjure a single thought that would make me understand how two people can live on 7.25 an hour and have plenty of money for luxuries. ? I am NOT calling you a liar please dont think that, im just speechless.

Ill move there and live like the koch bros lol
I call him a liar.

I had to translate it to monthly and that is about $1226/month (supposing that person works 8 hours and the usual 22 days/month). Well, with that wage nobody can mantain a family because you have to substract all the expenses of the insurances (health insurance, here must go two -or the company gives you the insurance, but usually don't, right?) Renting a flat, supposing the lower case of $400. And supposing that the expenses (water, Internet, electricity) don't raise more than $100 it makes a minimum of $500 of fix costs.

Let's say that the insurance is $50 for each members, it sums up to $600. I've been pretty conservative, because I don't believe those costs be real. So you have $600 for living. To buy food and all that you should add $200/monthly. It leaves you with $400 of savings. I absolutely believe those numbers too low and as I am not American I am probably forgetting fix costs.

PS: I've checked the price of the rentals in Kansas and there is nothing lower than 500 :)

Correction: Yes there are apartments of 1 room in the range of 450-500 :) BUt very few.

[del]

if the minimum wage was $10.50 it would be the same as when i earned $1.60, adjusted for inflation.

i don't remember places going out of business because of it.

[Hal Jordan]

I call him a liar.

I had to translate it to monthly and that is about $1226/month (supposing that person works 8 hours and the usual 22 days/month). Well, with that wage nobody can mantain a family because you have to substract all the expenses of the insurances (health insurance, here must go two -or the company gives you the insurance, but usually don't, right?) Renting a flat, supposing the lower case of $400. And supposing that the expenses (water, Internet, electricity) don't raise more than $100 it makes a minimum of $500 of fix costs.

Let's say that the insurance is $50 for each members, it sums up to $600. I've been pretty conservative, because I don't believe those costs be real. So you have $600 for living. To buy food and all that you should add $200/monthly. It leaves you with $400 of savings. I absolutely believe those numbers too low and as I am not American I am probably forgetting fix costs.

PS: I've checked the price of the rentals in Kansas and there is nothing lower than 500 :)

Correction: Yes there are apartments of 1 room in the range of 450-500 :) BUt very few.

Well, you can believe what you want. However, I'm going to give you the facts, and I guarantee you that I know far more of the area than you do, as I have actually lived there.

First, in Columbus, Kansas, it's not hard to find an apartment with one bedroom, one bathroom, a living area, and a kitchen for $250 a month. Last I knew, the landlord (Yes, small town, so there's only one) didn't have any listings online, because there was no need of that. The utilities are usually a bit lower than that, around $50-75. Insurance rates can vary, so I really can't give you a figure for that. A cost you didn't mention was gas. As it was a small town, you have to drive 30 minutes to get to a large enough town for entertainment or good shopping areas (one grocery store doesn't give a lot of variety).

Also, I've been surviving in Richmond, VA for a few years now on less than the figure you gave (right now it's around 800 a month).

[Refugee]

People should be free to work for as much or as little as they wish to ask for and for the point of being consistent (although it should be the logical inverse) employers should be free to offer to pay as much or as little as they wish as long as both parties are in agreement on what the wage is.

Who is government at any level to dictate who works and what they get paid?

Agreed. The problem is, where does it stop? First a minimum wage, then a maximum one. Then equal pay for hours worked. Companies refuse? The government take them over . . . a slippery slope. It all sounds so nice when the government start to get involved, but at the end of the day, if companies can’t make the profit they want, they close, outsource, or move elsewhere.
No one is forced to work and for those that haven’t the education or skills to demand a high(er) salary, that’s life.

[OGIS]

People should be free to work for as much or as little as they wish to ask for and for the point of being consistent (although it should be the logical inverse) employers should be free to offer to pay as much or as little as they wish as long as both parties are in agreement on what the wage is.

Who is government at any level to dictate who works and what they get paid?

Absolutely correct... in theory.

How many times have various aspects of economic theory been derided by conservatives as being "only theory"?

I used to think that minimum wage was a market destabilization factor, and therefore inherently bad (bad as in "counterproductive") . Well, it IS a market destabilization factor, but a long look at the context within which it is enabled reveals that there are other destabilizing factors at work that artificially drive wages down.

One good example of this is government granting of industry monopoly status in a geographical area. With no industry competitors, the monopoly can (all other factors being equal) pay less for each unit of industry-skilled labor. The degree of this will depend on such things as the social and economic cost to the worker of moving to another area out of the control of the monopoly.

This example is not a binary example; it is analog. Meaning that there is a whole range of factors involved, and that the impact of government regulation on depressing wages varies all over the "map" of economic activity.

[Redrose]

The minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It's a starting point for young people to gain experience. It was never designed to be a career salary to raise a family on.

The fact people are unskilled and lack education is no reason the minimum wage needs to be raised to a ridulous amount. I say $10 is fair, not higher at this point in time.

[OGIS]

The minimum wage was never intended to be a living wage. It's a starting point for young people to gain experience. It was never designed to be a career salary to raise a family on.

The fact people are unskilled and lack education is no reason the minimum wage needs to be raised to a ridulous amount. I say $10 is fair, not higher at this point in time.

Here's the thing: given that wages do not exist in a social/cultural vacuum, all other things being equal, a low or non-existent minimum wage has consequences that I am sure even conservatives will think are negative. Three examples:
(1) clown houses and clown apartments, with many wage earners sharing quarters to meet the rent.
(2) the filling of jobs by less socially/culturally desirable employees (i.e.: illegals).
(3) a less robust economy, where products are priced out of the reach of many people (thus hurting business). Remember the story of why Henry Ford paid his assembly line workers above then-scale?

[OGIS]

People should be free to work for as much or as little as they wish to ask for and for the point of being consistent (although it should be the logical inverse) employers should be free to offer to pay as much or as little as they wish as long as both parties are in agreement on what the wage is.

Who is government at any level to dictate who works and what they get paid?

Absolutely correct... in theory.

How many times have various aspects of economic theory been derided by conservatives as being "only theory"?

I used to think that minimum wage was a market destabilization factor, and therefore inherently bad (bad as in "counterproductive") . Well, it IS a market destabilization factor, but a long look at the context within which it is enabled reveals that there are other destabilizing factors at work that artificially drive wages down.

One good example of this is government granting of industry monopoly status in a geographical area. With no industry competitors, the monopoly can (all other factors being equal) pay less for each unit of industry-skilled labor. The degree of this will depend on such things as the social and economic cost to the worker of moving to another area out of the control of the monopoly.

This example is not a binary example; it is analog. Meaning that there is a whole range of factors involved, and that the impact of government regulation on depressing wages varies all over the "map" of economic activity.

[zelmo1234]

What is never looked at is the fact that those making just over the new minimum wage are crushed, Inflation from the higher wages means that those just over the minimum have a huge pay cut.

Common mentioned McDonalds and all of the money that corporate makes, But they are a franchise business with each owner making about 250K on average. So when you raise the wage to 10 ,00 the owner is now in the red.

Manufacturing of items that are very competitive with imports are forced to off shore operations. And of course it is devastating to youth and inner city employment.

So while it feels really good to say pay these people more, it rarely translates into a better standard of living and often translates into unemployment

[GrassrootsConservative]

Absolutely correct... in theory.


It worked for our country for about 200 years of success, growth, and the rest of the world wanting to come join us in search of the American dream.

Now we have a minimum wage and what has come with it? Economic depression, way high unemployment coupled with stagnant growth, more debt than ever before, and a generally unhappy citizenry.

But yes, it's only correct "in theory." :rollseyes:

/Edit: If you don't want people to be free to work that's fine, but take it somewhere else. America is the land of the free and we don't like our government to force us to live our lives how they want us to.

[OGIS]

It worked for our country for about 200 years of success, growth, and the rest of the world wanting to come join us in search of the American dream.

Yes, indeed, it DID work. But then - and put on your Big Boy Thinking Cap here - what happened? All kinds of other government intervention. Gee, do you think it is just barely possible that all that OTHER intervention created imbalances that require additional interventions (like the minimum wage) to try and put band-aids on the whole situation?


Now we have a minimum wage and what has come with it? Economic depression, way high unemployment coupled with stagnant growth, more debt than ever before, and a generally unhappy citizenry.

I suspect that this is a chicken and egg problem, Grasshopper. And - seriously - you're blaming all that on the freaking minimum wage? Really? Can you offer any actual reputable economic analysis to support that claim? I don't think so.


/Edit: If you don't want people to be free to work that's fine, but take it somewhere else.

Love it. I see the evolving narrative. That's almost as rich as "Arbeit macht
frei."


America is the land of the free and we don't like our government to force us to live our lives how they want us to.

Not any more.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Yes, indeed, it DID work. But then - and put on your Big Boy Thinking Cap here - what happened? All kinds of other government intervention. Gee, do you think it is just barely possible that all that OTHER intervention created imbalances that require additional interventions (like the minimum wage) to try and put band-aids on the whole situation?

Yep, it's all the government intervention. I never said only minimum wage, you'll notice, just that that is what has happened since we got coerced into a minimum wage.

I don't support any government intervention. It looks like you support at least some.

[OGIS]

Yep, it's all the government intervention. I never said only minimum wage, you'll notice, just that that is what has happened since we got coerced into a minimum wage.

Your rant clearly indicates that you think the root cause of all the problems is the minimum wage.

Get a grip.


I don't support any government intervention. It looks like you support at least some.

If the patient has been beaten by government thugs until 20 or 30 bones are shattered and the body is bleeding from several normal and new orifices, why yes, I would certainly support prophylactic measures in the government hospital that might cause discomfort.

Government intervention (and life in general) does not occur in a vacuum. There are consequences, effects, and they can be many and varied. And sometimes simply removing all life support from the patient and intoning that he should get well on his own will result in less than optimal consequences.

Political economics is complicated.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Your rant clearly indicates that you think the root cause of all the problems is the minimum wage.

Get a grip.


That's an interesting opinion. Indication is subjective. I think your posts are an indication that you're a government-supporting Lib. Does that matter in this discussion at all? Nope. Neither does what you think is indicated.


If the patient has been beaten by government thugs until 20 or 30 bones are shattered and the body is bleeding from several normal and new orifices, why yes, I would certainly support prophylactic measures in the government hospital that might cause discomfort.

Government intervention (and life in general) does not occur in a vacuum. There are consequences, effects, and they can be many and varied. And sometimes simply removing all life support from the patient and intoning that he should get well on his own will result in less than optimal consequences.

Political economics is complicated.

No idea what you're getting at here. The discussion is minimum wage.

[OGIS]

No idea what you're getting at here. The discussion is minimum wage.

The minimum wage does not happen in a vacuum.

[GrassrootsConservative]

The minimum wage does not happen in a vacuum.

I don't recall saying otherwise.

Do you have a point, or are you just rambling?

[OGIS]

I don't recall saying otherwise.

Do you have a point, or are you just rambling?

My point is that obsessive focus on the minimum wage as (apparently) that cause of All That Is Wrong With 'Murica is head-in-the-sand deaf, dumb and blind.

[GrassrootsConservative]

My point is that obsessive focus on the minimum wage as (apparently) that cause of All That Is Wrong With 'Murica is head-in-the-sand deaf, dumb and blind.

Oh well I'm not making that argument so it seems irrelevant.

[zelmo1234]

Oh well I'm not making that argument so it seems irrelevant.

Don't you remember those on the left have the ability to tell what you are thinking better than you can yourself.

[Hal Jordan]

My point is that obsessive focus on the minimum wage as (apparently) that cause of All That Is Wrong With 'Murica is head-in-the-sand deaf, dumb and blind.

He's focusing on minimum wage in a topic where the subject is the minimum wage, which means he is doing the correct thing.

Either way, minimum wage simply can not be administered at the national level.