Low gas prices is not as great as it seems

[Chloe]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

[Common]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

Chloe unfortunately americans need to go to work and go to the dr and drive to by food and low gas prices help them to do that. Its no trade off to have americans hurting even more paying HIGH gas prices for any environmental reasons when there are so many others doing as much or more dmg

[Peter1469]

And lower gas prices (really the price of oil) = less fracking.
...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

[Chloe]

And lower gas prices (really the price of oil) = less fracking.

less fracking is always a great thing, but it shouldn't be either/or in my opinion.

[JDubya]

Like everything else it's a double edged sword.

[Mac-7]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

I was just commenting on another thread about liberals like you and Obama who want much higher gas prices for the reasons you just listed.

[Peter1469]

The US has a broad economy that benefits and is hurt by low oil costs. I think that overall it is a net win for the US. That certainly was the case a few years ago, but may be different now depending on the hit that the fracking industry takes.

We certainly are not like other nations such as OPEC nations, Russia, and others that base their budget on the price of a barrel of oil. The low cost of oil has really harmed Russia, OPEC nations, and the emerging economies.

It may be that the drop in oil prices was forced by certain actors to actually cause that effect....

[Mister D]

Chloe, homo economicus, also known as homo Americanus, thinks largely in economic terms. Sadly, that is our culture. You are probably too young to remember Bill Clinton's 1996 campaign slogan but it was "It's the economy stupid". It really is. Bill Clinton's campaign team was very insightful.

[Peter1469]

less fracking is always a great thing, but it shouldn't be either/or in my opinion.

Fracking will happen a lot when oil is $60 a barrel or higher. Preferably over $80. Want less fracking, keep oil below $50 ppb.

[Mister D]

Chloe unfortunately americans need to go to work and go to the dr and drive to by food and low gas prices help them to do that. Its no trade off to have americans hurting even more paying HIGH gas prices for any environmental reasons when there are so many others doing as much or more dmg

Americans need some kind of incentive to change their habits.

[Chloe]

Chloe, homo economicus, also known as homo Americanus, thinks largely in economic terms. Sadly, that is our culture. You are probably too young to remember Bill Clinton's 1996 campaign slogan but it was "It's the economy stupid". It really is. Bill Clinton's campaign team was very insightful.

1996 I was three years old, so no, I don't remember :smiley:

[Mac-7]

Americans need some kind of incentive to change their habits.

I sure hope you are kidding.

We need cheap and abundant energy for the sake of the economy.

[Chloe]

I was just commenting on another thread about liberals like you and Obama who want much higher gas prices for the reasons you just listed.

I stand by it. There are a lot of other things we as a society can do along the way but cheap gasoline in the present only keeps us from looking towards our future.

[Common]

The US has a broad economy that benefits and is hurt by low oil costs. I think that overall it is a net win for the US. That certainly was the case a few years ago, but may be different now depending on the hit that the fracking industry takes.

We certainly are not like other nations such as OPEC nations, Russia, and others that base their budget on the price of a barrel of oil. The low cost of oil has really harmed Russia, OPEC nations, and the emerging economies.

It may be that the drop in oil prices was forced by certain actors to actually cause that effect....

Low gas prices are a win for everyday americans. They wont raise the min wage and yet they want to raise gas through the roof for environmental reasons. ? people have to survive

[Chloe]

I sure hope you are kidding.

We need cheap and abundant energy for the sake of the economy.

economies go up and down, we only have one Earth.

[Mister D]

1996 I was three years old, so no, I don't remember :smiley:

It was very a astute slogan and really touched on the fundamental values of American society.

[Mister D]

I sure hope you are kidding.

We need cheap and abundant energy for the sake of the economy.

Of course! Everything for the sake of economy. That's precisely why we're knee deep in Mexicans.

American conservatives remain an unfunny joke.

[Peter1469]

Americans need some kind of incentive to change their habits.

Disagree so far as energy use goes.

We are fast advancing beyond fossil fuels and there is no need to lower our demand for energy at this point.

[Mac-7]

I stand by it.

There are a lot of other things we as a society can do along the way but cheap gasoline in the present only keeps us from looking towards our future.

I know you do.

I wasn't questioning your sincerity.

[Peter1469]

economies go up and down, we only have one Earth.

The stars are ours to conquer. :smiley:

[Mister D]

Disagree so far as energy use goes.

We are fast advancing beyond fossil fuels and there is no need to lower our demand for energy at this point.

And when we destroy this world we'll live on Mars. I know the story. :smiley:

[Peter1469]

Of course! Everything for the sake of economy. That's precisely why we're knee deep in Mexicans.

American conservatives remain an unfunny joke.

Don't look to the dregs to define a movement.

[Peter1469]

And when we destroy this world we'll live on Mars. I know the story. :smiley:

We won't destroy this world. The tech we need to get to Mars and stay there will be a clean energy. The desire to get to Mars will prompt us to move in that technological direction.

Had some of our present day Luddites been top dogs 12,000 years ago, humans would still be hunter gatherers living in caves and enjoying brutish and short lives.

[Mac-7]

Of course! Everything for the sake of economy. That's precisely why we're knee deep in Mexicans.

American conservatives remain an unfunny joke.

Dont blame the Mexicans on all conservatives.

The Chamber of commerce represents only about 1% of conservatives in America.

The rest understand how harmful illegal aliens are.

If anyone deserves most of the blame its liberals who still support the foreign invasion of America.

[Chloe]

for the love can we please not turn this into a topic about immigration, or abortion, or Obama, or Trump, or any of that nonsense? Pretty please?

[southwest88]

And lower gas prices (really the price of oil) = less fracking.

I'm not sure that's true. I remember reading - a recent newspaper article in the regional daily 'paper here, a syndicated columnist, I think - saying that the two - gas prices & price of oil don't track that well because there's a shortage of oil refineries. There was also disruption @ regional refineries near Chicago (or the upper Midwest somewhere), which was causing distribution disruptions, as other refineries shipped normal cushion (extra gasoline) to the Midwest to make up the shortfalls. There was damage to refineries near Chicago (in Ohio? - normal wear & tear), but the refineries are very busy - there's been no attempt in the last decades to expand refinery capacity, & so the gasoline supply is always just barely enough.

There's also a switchover from summer to fall gasoline formulations coming up, which also causes some disruption in supply, as modifications have to be made to the refineries. Fracking seems to be very price dependent - if there's no immediate market for the output, fracking drilling/production tails off quickly. Of course, those wells can also be put back into production fairly quickly, so there's more cushion there that actually responds to short-term demand. (With the understanding that the oil still needs to be cracked - refined, additives put in, etc.)

[Mister D]

for the love can we please not turn this into a topic about immigration, or abortion, or Obama, or Trump, or any of that nonsense? Pretty please?

I mentioned immigration because it touches on the supremely economic values that are part and parcel of a culture you abhor.

[Mister D]

We won't destroy this world. The tech we need to get to Mars and stay there will be a clean energy. The desire to get to Mars will prompt us to move in that technological direction.

Had some of our present day Luddites been top dogs 12,000 years ago, humans would still be hunter gatherers living in caves and enjoying brutish and short lives.

I'm much less sanguine than your average liberal about eternal progress. Ultimately, I think it's a destructive way of thinking and manifestly so.

Moreover, you present a false dichotomy. That is, it's either the status quo or hunter gathering.

[Mac-7]

I mentioned immigration because it touches on the supremely economic values that are part and parcel of a culture you abhor.

Much of the push for illegal aliens fits Chloe's liberal belief system.

[Peter1469]

I'm not sure that's true. I remember reading - a recent newspaper article in the regional daily 'paper here, a syndicated columnist, I think - saying that the two - gas prices & price of oil don't track that well because there's a shortage of oil refineries. There was also disruption @ regional refineries near Chicago (or the upper Midwest somewhere), which was causing distribution disruptions, as other refineries shipped normal cushion (extra gasoline) to the Midwest to make up the shortfalls. There was damage to refineries near Chicago (in Ohio? - normal wear & tear), but the refineries are very busy - there's been no attempt in the last decades to expand refinery capacity, & so the gasoline supply is always just barely enough.

There's also a switchover from summer to fall gasoline formulations coming up, which also causes some disruption in supply, as modifications have to be made to the refineries. Fracking seems to be very price dependent - if there's no immediate market for the output, fracking drilling/production tails off quickly. Of course, those wells can also be put back into production fairly quickly, so there's more cushion there that actually responds to short-term demand. (With the understanding that the oil still needs to be cracked - refined, additives put in, etc.)

I meant that the economics of fracking depend on the price of oil per barrel. Chloe was discussing the cost of gasoline.

[Mister D]

Much of the push for illegal aliens fits Chloe's liberal belief system.


Yours too but I will defer to Chloe's wishes regarding the direction of the thread. We can discuss the confusion on the American right some other time.

[Peter1469]

I'm much less sanguine than your average liberal about eternal progress. Ultimately, I think it's a destructive way of thinking and manifestly so.

Moreover, you present a false dichotomy. That is, it's either the status quo or hunter gathering.

Human progress has been tied to conflict (war) and exploration.

That may make my Luddite : hunter gatherer comment more clear. If we were passive and meek we would still be in the caves, never able to advance past that hard and limiting lifestyle.

[Mac-7]

Yours too

Not mine.

i'm completely against the flood of illegal aliens.

But liberals have a much more emotional approach to issues which leads them to illogically hate oil but love illegal aliens.

[Mister D]

Human progress has been tied to conflict (war) and exploration.

That may make my Luddite : hunter gatherer comment more clear. If we were passive and meek we would still be in the caves, never able to advance past that hard and limiting lifestyle.

There has only been technological progress but, like I said, I have my doubts about our ability to bestow contemporary western lifestyles on 7 billion people.

That's just it. No one said anything about passivity and fear. All I did was question the ideology of eternal progress. I just think there are limits and perhaps we should recognize them.

[Peter1469]

There has only been technological progress but, like I said, I have my doubts about our ability to bestow contemporary western lifestyles on 7 billion people.

That's just it. No one said anything about passivity and fear. All I did was question the ideology of eternal progress. I just think there are limits and perhaps we should recognize them.

We should start another thread so Chloe doesn't yell at us.

[Mister D]

We should start another thread so Chloe doesn't yell at us.

It's on topic though. :laugh: The Mexican thing is arguable I guess but I still think it was pertinent.

[Private Pickle]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

You will do more good once you realize you live in an economy based on fossil fuels. Stop dwelling on fossil fuels as the "enemy" and start viewing them as what they are...the competition...

[Private Pickle]

Human progress has been tied to conflict (war) and exploration.

That may make my Luddite : hunter gatherer comment more clear. If we were passive and meek we would still be in the caves, never able to advance past that hard and limiting lifestyle.

Meh the nature of humans. Other mammals share the same traits.

[Mister D]

So where did Chloe go? :smiley:

[Peter1469]

Meh the nature of humans. Other mammals share the same traits.

Really? Where are the cities? The art work dedicated to war heroes and leaders? The grave yards for the dead? Literature? Whales on the moon?

Anything?

[Bob]

Americans need some kind of incentive to change their habits.

I have sold hundreds of homes to buyers. I find that buyers will get a better price if they can drive further from the job. And low gas prices saves them a lot of money used to buy a home.

Now, high gas prices drives up home prices near jobs.

There is no rational reason to ask for gas prices to go up.

The spoof is autos cause climate change. Problem is, the arctic ice is increased by over 33 percent this past colder season.

Autos came a long ways and in the usa do not cause warm climates.

[Mac-7]

I have sold hundreds of homes to buyers. I find that buyers will get a better price if they can drive further from the job. And low gas prices saves them a lot of money used to buy a home.

Now, high gas prices drives up home prices near jobs.

There is no rational reason to ask for gas prices to go up.

The spoof is autos cause climate change. Problem is, the arctic ice is increased by over 33 percent this past colder season.

Autos came a long ways and in the usa do not cause warm climates.

Environmentalists in the education system and the lib media have been brainwashing shield rent for 30 years.

anyone that age or younger is a lost cause.

[Private Pickle]

Really? Where are the cities? The art work dedicated to war heroes and leaders? The grave yards for the dead? Literature? Whales on the moon?

Anything?

I said they share the same attributes...you're taking quite a leap from that to building cities and landing whales on the moon.

[pjohns]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

I, too, am much less than thrilled by the current, low gasoline prices; but for a reason entirely different than the one stated in the OP.

I am now retired; and some of the financial instruments that I use are invested in various stocks--including oil companies.

When these stocks decline, I get paid less; sometimes, much less. (One financial instrument has paid as much as $800-plus in one month, or as little as $100-plus in another month.)

And I typically drive less than 50 miles per week.

So, all things considered, I lose more money than I gain when oil prices are low.

[Common]

What we have is the classic view of saving the environment by making a commodity that EVERYONE must have and use far more expensive.

Making oil far more expensive would destroy low income americans. Its not just raising the price of gas. It raises heating oil and electric from oil fired generating stations. The cost of ANYTHING made with plastic goes sky high. Carpets etc.

Its a noble idea to save the environment but raising oil to that gain does more harm to humans than it helps the environment. People that can afford to absord the hellish higher prices for everything by raising oil need to think of the millions that cant afford it and it would break them.

[BB-35]

And lower gas prices (really the price of oil) = less fracking.
My best friends kid just got laid off from Shell because of the drop in oil prices,He was working with fracking in the Dakotas

[southwest88]

And when we destroy this world we'll live on Mars. I know the story. :smiley:

If that's the plan, we'd better crack fusion real soon. The energy costs to terraform Mars are pretty big - & if we have to do so in a short time frame - anything less than 300 years or so - the energy inputs required get astronomical. There's that, plus Mars would be a first for us in terms of terraforming. We would normally start small - with an asteroid or something, where we could take our time, measure the inputs, outputs, processes & crunch the numbers, & risk relatively few lives in the process. If we start looking @ Mars as our lifeboat, all those luxuries go out the window (bulkhead?)

Then there's transporting a sizable fraction of the Earth population to Mars. That's going to take huge lift capacity - energy too, again, but if we have fusion, that part is probably doable. It's the sheer lift capacity (& something like suspended animation would be good too - cut down on expendables, food, water, etc. that we'd also have to lift otherwise) that would be problematic. Could we terraform, fix problems with the planet on the fly, design/test/build heavy lift in quantity, work up a good-enough suspended animation technique for masses of people & live with the % of die-offs in transit? All excellent questions.

Step right this way, folks ...

[BB-35]

If that's the plan, we'd better crack fusion real soon. The energy costs to terraform Mars are pretty big - & if we have to do so in a short time frame - anything less than 300 years or so - the energy inputs required get astronomical. There's that, plus Mars would be a first for us in terms of terraforming. We would normally start small - with an asteroid or something, where we could take our time, measure the inputs, outputs, processes & crunch the numbers, & risk relatively few lives in the process. If we start looking @ Mars as our lifeboat, all those luxuries go out the window (bulkhead?)

Then there's transporting a sizable fraction of the Earth population to Mars. That's going to take huge lift capacity - energy too, again, but if we have fusion, that part is probably doable. It's the sheer lift capacity (& something like suspended animation would be good too - cut down on expendables, food, water, etc. that we'd also have to lift otherwise) that would be problematic. Could we terraform, fix problems with the planet on the fly, design/test/build heavy lift in quantity, work up a good-enough suspended animation technique for masses of people & live with the % of die-offs in transit? All excellent questions.

Step right this way, folks ...
IF mankind survives long enough,we'll have to move to the outer planets,when the sun begins to go into it's red giant phase

[Ethereal]

Low gas prices and the development of alternative energy sources are not mutually exclusive. We don't have to pick one or the other.

[Bob]

Environmentalists in the education system and the lib media have been brainwashing shield rent for 30 years.

anyone that age or younger is a lost cause.

She will not recognize herself in 30 years. We all grow up sooner or later.

[Subdermal]

I stand by it. There are a lot of other things we as a society can do along the way but cheap gasoline in the present only keeps us from looking towards our future.

Unfounded/baseless emotionalism. You cannot possibly make the cost of a gallon of gas low enough to disincentivize whatever innovation will eventually replace it.

Is the rapidly increasing cost of chemotherapy going to make the cure for cancer happen faster?

Of course not; it's stupid to suggest otherwise. All you're doing is hurting low and middle income Americans the most with this liberal prattle.

[southwest88]

IF mankind survives long enough,we'll have to move to the outer planets,when the sun begins to go into it's red giant phase

Yah, in 5.4 billion years or so, give or take. On the bright (!) side, however, you know how the fusion visionaries keep saying that in 50 years we'll have a breakthrough in fusion? Well, let's see, 50 divided into 5.4 billion ... Well, golleee, we should crack this fusion thing in plenty o' time 'fore the sun gets all riled up. (Or het up, I forget which ...)

[Peter1469]

I said they share the same attributes...you're taking quite a leap from that to building cities and landing whales on the moon.

They don't share attribute with humans other than the desire to eat and reproduce.

[Mac-7]

She will not recognize herself in 30 years. We all grow up sooner or later.

Yet we all meet the aging flower child from the sixties with her long hair at the protest rally outside a Trump or a Cruz campaign event.

She looks different now but her mind never recovered from the radicalism of youth.

[Ethereal]

Yet we all meet the aging flower child from the sixties with her long hair at the protest rally outside a Trump or a Cruz campaign event.

She looks different now but her mind never recovered from the radicalism of youth.

Likewise, we still meet people who think Vietnam or Iraq were good ideas. Those people are far, far worse than any aging hippie.

[Mac-7]

Likewise, we still meet people who think Vietnam or Iraq were good ideas. Those people are far, far worse than any aging hippie.

Yes for Vietnam but no for iraq

[Chloe]

So where did @Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565) go? :smiley:

Sorry about that. I went out for dinner and then came home and watched a movie with my sister

[Chloe]

Unfounded/baseless emotionalism. You cannot possibly make the cost of a gallon of gas low enough to disincentivize whatever innovation will eventually replace it.

Is the rapidly increasing cost of chemotherapy going to make the cure for cancer happen faster?

Of course not; it's stupid to suggest otherwise. All you're doing is hurting low and middle income Americans the most with this liberal prattle.

Sure you can

[Private Pickle]

They don't share attribute with humans other than the desire to eat and reproduce.

Don't tell that to Chloe!

We share the same desire for resources.

[Private Pickle]

Sorry about that. I went out for dinner and then came home and watched a movie with my sister

What movie?

[Chloe]

What movie?

Theory of everything

[Bob]

Yet we all meet the aging flower child from the sixties with her long hair at the protest rally outside a Trump or a Cruz campaign event.

She looks different now but her mind never recovered from the radicalism of youth.

Some radicals recover. I recovered from being a Democrat. It happens.

[Common]

Chloe has nothing but good in her heart, I do believe shes wrong about this one but thats ok, people dont always agree.

I think high gas prices hurt more americans than the environmental benefit of sending prices through the roof helps

[Bob]

Likewise, we still meet people who think Vietnam or Iraq were good ideas. Those people are far, far worse than any aging hippie.

I talk to Vietnamese people from time to time. I have not seen any so far say what Vietnam has is freedom. They no doubt are better off today but I think that results from the steps made by Hong kong, then China and later Vietnam.

Are people better off free than under a dictator. i say yes.

[Bob]

Chloe has nothing but good in her heart, I do believe shes wrong about this one but thats ok, people dont always agree.

I think high gas prices hurt more americans than the environmental benefit of sending prices through the roof helps

She has good in her heart but she does harbor ill will for some of us.

Overall, we are better off with cheap gasoline since it shows up in our cars, the trucks carrying our food to the stores, the prices farmers pay for fuel and our air system. The economy moves forward with cheap fuels.

[Private Pickle]

Theory of everything

Good Flick

[Mac-7]

Chloe has nothing but good in her heart, I do believe shes wrong about this one but thats ok, people dont always agree.

I think high gas prices hurt more americans than the environmental benefit of sending prices through the roof helps

I don't think 20 something's like Chloe are bad people.

But collectively they are moving their generation in the wrong direction

[Peter1469]

Chloe has nothing but good in her heart, I do believe shes wrong about this one but thats ok, people dont always agree.

I think high gas prices hurt more americans than the environmental benefit of sending prices through the roof helps

The oil industry and its suppliers are helped high oil prices. But you are correct, the US is very much a consumption based economy and the price of oil (as gas) effects a lot- people as drivers, cost of transportation of all goods, costs of operating facilities / homes, etc. So low prices help everyone in the US.

[donttread]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.


There is no doubt Chloe that the manipulation of gas prices is in part to stiffel alternate energy growth. Of course that wouldn't happen in a free market... but

[Ethereal]

Yes for Vietnam but no for iraq

Well, you're just proving my point, aren't you?

[Mac-7]

Well, you're just proving my point, aren't you?

I don't know.

You implied that I'm a knee jerk supporter of war and clearly it depends on the facts.

[Common]

Well, you're just proving my point, aren't you?

why do you bother

[Tahuyaman]

When gasoline prices are lower than they want, liberals cry that lower fuel prices are causing too much environmental destruction. When gasoline prices rise, liberals complain the the higher prices are hurting the people who can least afford to deal with it. They call it an excessive tax upon the poor.

Is is there any condition which doesn't motivate a liberal to complain?

[Private Pickle]

Chloe has nothing but good in her heart, I do believe shes wrong about this one but thats ok, people dont always agree.

I think high gas prices hurt more americans than the environmental benefit of sending prices through the roof helps

There isn't a human on earth that fits that description. Chloe in particular has displayed this statement to be incorrect on multiple occasions. Sorry brah.

[Tahuyaman]

Chloe has nothing but good in her heart,

I agree. She's very naive and idealistic. Age and experience remedies that, usually.

[donttread]

I agree. She's very naive and idealistic. Age and experience remedies that, usually.

You have some pretty extreme opinions as do I and age didn't mellow us? I respect Chloe's opinions although I often disagree. But she makes her points clearly and intelligently which is all we can ask for

[donttread]

When gasoline prices are lower than they want, liberals cry that lower fuel prices are causing too much environmental destruction. When gasoline prices rise, liberals complain the the higher prices are hurting the people who can least afford to deal with it. They call it an excessive tax upon the poor.

Is is there any condition which doesn't motivate a liberal to complain?

It's the very un-capitalist manipulation of the prices that is the problem

[Common]

You have some pretty extreme opinions as do I and age didn't mellow us? I respect Chloe's opinions although I often disagree. But she makes her points clearly and intelligently which is all we can ask for

I agree, I dont think her age has anything to do with her opinions on the environment and animal cruelty. Id bet she has the same views 25 yrs from now.

[Tahuyaman]

You have some pretty extreme opinions

such as?

[Tahuyaman]

When gasoline prices are lower than they want, liberals cry that lower fuel prices are causing too much environmental destruction. When gasoline prices rise, liberals complain the the higher prices are hurting the people who can least afford to deal with it. They call it an excessive tax upon the poor.

Is is there any condition which doesn't motivate a liberal to complain?


It's the very un-capitalist manipulation of the prices that is the problem

That's not the point. The left wing complains when gasoline prices rise and they complain when they fall. They are never happy.

[Mac-7]

That's not the point. The left wing complains when gasoline prices rise and they complain when they fall. They are never happy.

Liberals would not mind high pages prices if the extra money were taxes that go to feed the bloated welfare state.

They just hate the idea that the money might remain the private sector instead of government.

[donttread]

such as?


I'm not going to dignify that with an answer

[Tahuyaman]

Liberals would not mind high pages prices if the extra money were taxes that go to feed the bloated welfare state.

They just hate the idea that the money might remain the private sector instead of government.


I think they would like to see a means tested system. Fuel prices, or any necessities for that mater, are based on the income of the consumer. After all, why should the multi millionaire be paying the same price to fuel up his Ferrari as the poor guy with the rusty 1985 Ford Taurus?

[Tahuyaman]

I'm not going to dignify that with an answer

thats because you just made an accusation you can't support.

[Mac-7]

I think they would like to see a means tested system. Fuel prices, or any necessities for that mater, are based on the income of the consumer. After all, why should the multi millionaire be paying the same price to fuel up his Ferrari as the poor guy with the rusty 1985 Ford Taurus?

They could do that if government nationalized the oil companies as that idiot black congresswoman from California threatened to do once

[Tahuyaman]

They could do that if government nationalized the oil companies as that idiot black congresswoman from California threatened to do once

They could do it without taking over the companies themselves.

I'd be willing to bet that there are many here who would support an national means testing system to control the prices of necessities.

[Peter1469]

They could do it without taking over the companies themselves.

I'd be willing to bet that there are many here who would support an national means testing system to control the prices of necessities.

How could such a scheme be implemented?

[Mac-7]

How could such a scheme be implemented?

Liberals could throw something together just like Obamacare

It doesn't matter to them how well it works or how much it costs

[Tahuyaman]

How could such a scheme be implemented?

The all powerful government could figure out a way if we let them.

[Peter1469]

The all powerful government could figure out a way if we let them.

I figure it could be easily done in a cashless society. Watch out, the world is headed in that direction.

[donttread]

Low gas prices and the development of alternative energy sources are not mutually exclusive. We don't have to pick one or the other.

No must you must admitt lower gas prices can impact both investment in and demand for alternate soiurces

[domer76]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

My company moved me to a store almost 40 miles from my home. Those prices allow me to have a little more discretionary funds. You know. Stuff like food on the table

[Subdermal]

No must you must admitt lower gas prices can impact both investment in and demand for alternate soiurces

Perhaps - but it will not in the end speed the development of such an alternative source. Increasing prices pushes people to inferior alternative sources; decreasing prices still cannot stop the motivation - the massive incentive - to create a truly superior alternative.

It is likely that an alternative to gas or oil will be drastically superior (like cold fusion, if it becomes workable) - orders of magnitude superior.

The incentive to create it remains massive, no matter where the price of oil goes.

[pjohns]

I figure it could be easily done in a cashless society. Watch out, the world is headed in that direction.

I very seldom use cash; maybe once or twice per month, typically.

And the last check that I wrote was more than six months ago; the last previous check, six months prior to that.

I use my Discover Card for almost everything--groceries; gasoline; casual dining; and just about everything else--and then pay if off in full each month. So I rarely use cash.

[Common]

I very seldom use cash; maybe once or twice per month, typically.

And the last check that I wrote was more than six months ago; the last previous check, six months prior to that.

I use my Discover Card for almost everything--groceries; gasoline; casual dining; and just about everything else--and then pay if off in full each month. So I rarely use cash.

I used credit card with the best cashback for everything also. I get 5% on gas and groceries and restaurants. I carry some cash but nothing like I used to most of my life

[Tahuyaman]

I figure it could be easily done in a cashless society. Watch out, the world is headed in that direction.

Im sure if government was challenged to come up with a way to do it, they could.

[Common]

People need to realize that when oil prices go up its not just gasoline that goes up. Everything made with petroleum goes through the roof and in turn those manufacturers raise wholesale prices that raise retail prices. For example, carpet and linoleum and any vinyl goods anything made with plastic etc and theres far more. Electric generated oil plants.

So saying raise the price of gasoline to spur environmental benefits is far to painful for working americans. Thats my opinion, they need to find a way to spur environmental research with low oil prices.

[Redrose]

My company moved me to a store almost 40 miles from my home. Those prices allow me to have a little more discretionary funds. You know. Stuff like food on the table


We paid $1.98 per gallon tonight. That was great. We get 35+ mph with our cars, a visit to the pump is pretty good right now. I'd rather have the money in my pocket than theirs.

[Redrose]

I very seldom use cash; maybe once or twice per month, typically.

And the last check that I wrote was more than six months ago; the last previous check, six months prior to that.

I use my Discover Card for almost everything--groceries; gasoline; casual dining; and just about everything else--and then pay if off in full each month. So I rarely use cash.


I use my debit card for everything I buy, I can't remember the last time I had cash. I write checks for church and all my bills are paid on line. We are basically cashless right now.

[Common]

We paid $1.98 per gallon tonight. That was great. We get 35+ mph with our cars, a visit to the pump is pretty good right now. I'd rather have the money in my pocket than theirs.

Damn thats way lower than it is here, lowest ive seen here is 2.23 a gal

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Redrose http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1244387#post1244387)
We paid $1.98 per gallon tonight. That was great. We get 35+ mph with our cars, a visit to the pump is pretty good right now. I'd rather have the money in my pocket than theirs.


Damn thats way lower than it is here, lowest ive seen here is 2.23 a gal

Here it is still $2.73 at just Costco. CA screws us. Their fuels are deliberately costly.

Thank you Jerry Brown for the hosing.

http://www.oaklandgasprices.com/Fremont/index.aspx

[Peter1469]

I very seldom use cash; maybe once or twice per month, typically.

And the last check that I wrote was more than six months ago; the last previous check, six months prior to that.

I use my Discover Card for almost everything--groceries; gasoline; casual dining; and just about everything else--and then pay if off in full each month. So I rarely use cash.

Same here.

[Peter1469]

People need to realize that when oil prices go up its not just gasoline that goes up. Everything made with petroleum goes through the roof and in turn those manufacturers raise wholesale prices that raise retail prices. For example, carpet and linoleum and any vinyl goods anything made with plastic etc and theres far more. Electric generated oil plants.

So saying raise the price of gasoline to spur environmental benefits is far to painful for working americans. Thats my opinion, they need to find a way to spur environmental research with low oil prices.

The price of everything transported to market- almost all goods- goes up as well.

[Peter1469]

I use my debit card for everything I buy, I can't remember the last time I had cash. I write checks for church and all my bills are paid on line. We are basically cashless right now.

I use credit cards as opposed to debit cards- there are better consumer protections if someone steals from your credit card as opposed to your debit card.

[Redrose]

Damn thats way lower than it is here, lowest ive seen here is 2.23 a gal


When we were in Florida last month the gas prices were about 40 cents higher than our prices here. We buy BP or Exxon. The cost of living is a bit lower here, we noticed that with property taxes, house and car insurances, but food is about the same.

[pjohns]

We paid $1.98 per gallon tonight.

Locally, gasoline was as little as $1.939 per gallon yesterday. (The price depends, in large measure, upon state taxes.)

[donttread]

thats because you just made an accusation you can't support.


So what do you call yourself? A moderate?

[donttread]

Im sure if government was challenged to come up with a way to do it, they could.

It would kill the underground segment of our economy. Everything from paying the kid who mows your yard under the table to drugs and prostitution. Too big a segment of the economy to do without

[Tahuyaman]

So what do you call yourself? A moderate?

A conservative. Now tell me about all these extremist positions who say I advocate.

[Tahuyaman]

It would kill the underground segment of our economy. Everything from paying the kid who mows your yard under the table to drugs and prostitution. Too big a segment of the economy to do without

You have it completely backwards. Developing a way to means test for the necessities in life would help promote an underground economy.

[donttread]

You have it completely backwards. Developing a way to means test for the necessities in life would help promote an underground economy.


I was refering to a cashless society

[Redrose]

I use credit cards as opposed to debit cards- there are better consumer protections if someone steals from your credit card as opposed to your debit card.


That is true, but I avoid using credit, too easy not to repay. Our credit union has a very good protection plan, similiar to what VISA offers, that's where I have my debit account.

We had a situation where a desk clerk stole from our card at a hotel, and we were able to get it back, with little problem. So far so good.

[Tahuyaman]

Low gas prices is not as great as it seems

I use diesel in my truck, car and boat. I'm loving the lower fuel prices.

[pjohns]

That is true, but I avoid using credit, too easy not to repay.

There is, however, an easy solution: I have my credit card set up for automatic debit for the full amount each month. So I have foreclosed even the option of paying anything less than the full amount.

[Ethereal]

I don't know.

You implied that I'm a knee jerk supporter of war and clearly it depends on the facts.

Anyone who thinks Iraq was a good idea is a knee-jerk supporter of wars of aggression, yes. It was an unmitigated disaster based on exaggerations and lies.

[Ethereal]

No must you must admitt lower gas prices can impact both investment in and demand for alternate soiurces

If anything, lower gas prices leave more money to invest in alternative energy sources.

[donttread]

Anyone who thinks Iraq was a good idea is a knee-jerk supporter of wars of aggression, yes. It was an unmitigated disaster based on exaggerations and lies.

Iraq was a bad idea , I can't really see anyone disputing that

[Green Arrow]

I don't believe we need to eliminate gas-fueled cars on the backs of poor Americans.

Maybe that's just me.

[Captain Obvious]

If anything, lower gas prices leave more money to invest in alternative energy sources.

Unfortunately in this materialistic, capitalistic society those "incremental earnings" will all go to fatten a couple of rich white guy's portfolios instead.

(edit: I skipped a point, the windfalls in fracking, oil and gas)

[Private Pickle]

Unfortunately in this materialistic, capitalistic society those "incremental earnings" will all go to fatten a couple of rich white guy's portfolios instead.

(edit: I skipped a point, the windfalls in fracking, oil and gas)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1S3w7qvGjI

[Peter1469]

I don't believe we need to eliminate gas-fueled cars on the backs of poor Americans.

Maybe that's just me.

Alcohol fueled cars (http://www.energyvictory.net/) would be cheaper once the infrastructure was in place to service them.

[Captain Obvious]

Alcohol fueled cars (http://www.energyvictory.net/) would be cheaper once the infrastructure was in place to service them.

Infrastructure is typically the biggest obstacle to putting new energy options into market.

[Peter1469]

Infrastructure is typically the biggest obstacle to putting new energy options into market.

That is why Big Oil has an effective monopoly.

[Captain Obvious]

That is why Big Oil has an effective monopoly.

Exactly

[zelmo1234]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

Yes freedom and things that actually help those poor people that you despise really sucks. People have more money in there wallets, they go out to eat or a movie. They might even buy a new car and if it is one of those larger cars, the companies make more money, and their stocks go up

This of course helps retired people get more money to live on, and pension plans are more secure.

This of course to liberals is a total and complete disaster, because they can't oppress people with government dependency.

Sorry but if you really want to see cruel people look to the environmentalist wing of the Democratic party

[Chloe]

Yes freedom and things that actually help those poor people that you despise really sucks. People have more money in there wallets, they go out to eat or a movie. They might even buy a new car and if it is one of those larger cars, the companies make more money, and their stocks go up

This of course helps retired people get more money to live on, and pension plans are more secure.

This of course to liberals is a total and complete disaster, because they can't oppress people with government dependency.

Sorry but if you really want to see cruel people look to the environmentalist wing of the Democratic party

I don't despise poor people so please don't cross over into that kind of ridiculousness. Rich, poor, in between, it doesn't matter in the long run if the planet is continued to be abused. Low gas prices usually means more driving which means more emissions more harmful runoff into water systems which means more pollution and more treatment which means more energy used for things that we should be working harder to reduce, oh and it also means more traffic accidents too if you want to talk about caring for your fellow human. Low oil prices usually means that clean renewable energy takes a back seat once again since people become lazy and complacent once again. Low oil prices also typically means less recycling of things such as plastic bags since it can become more expensive for the facility to recycle them than the finished recycled product is worth so they just get sent along with other things to live in a landfill for the next 10,000 years. There's more to life than a new car, pensions, and stock prices. Without a healthy planet it's all moot.

[Bob]

I don't despise poor people so please don't cross over into that kind of ridiculousness. Rich, poor, in between, it doesn't matter in the long run if the planet is continued to be abused. Low gas prices usually means more driving which means more emissions more harmful runoff into water systems which means more pollution and more treatment which means more energy used for things that we should be working harder to reduce, oh and it also means more traffic accidents too if you want to talk about caring for your fellow human. Low oil prices usually means that clean renewable energy takes a back seat once again since people become lazy and complacent once again. Low oil prices also typically means less recycling of things such as plastic bags since it can become more expensive for the facility to recycle them than the finished recycled product is worth so they just get sent along with other things to live in a landfill for the next 10,000 years. There's more to life than a new car, pensions, and stock prices. Without a healthy planet it's all moot.

Earth is healthy. Stop worrying about it. The poor have to buy food and shelter. Your way they can't travel.

[Bob]

That is why Big Oil has an effective monopoly.

Read physics for future presidents. Think.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocwxNvM6uLU

[Chloe]

Earth is healthy. Stop worrying about it. The poor have to buy food and shelter. Your way they can't travel.

A better wage, a better economic system, a better incentive to work, a better society that looks after each other, better employers, a better education system, a better infrastructure, and a better government would all do far more for the poor than a 50 cent difference for gas at the pump would ever do. If you think lower gas prices is going to somehow turn someones fortunes around then you have a lot more faith in a fossil fuel run, profits before people focused economy than I do.

and the Earth is not as healthy as it could be. I'm healthy but that doesn't mean that I don't take care of myself for today and for the future.

[Bob]

A better wage, a better economic system, a better incentive to work, a better society that looks after each other, better employers, a better education system, a better infrastructure, and a better government would all do far more for the poor than a 50 cent difference for gas at the pump would ever do. If you think lower gas prices is going to somehow turn someones fortunes around then you have a lot more faith in a fossil fuel run, profits before people focused economy than I do.

and the Earth is not as healthy as it could be. I'm healthy but that doesn't mean that I don't take care of myself for today and for the future.

You people, those that preach that doctrine have caused people to lose homes. Even jobs in many cases. Petroleum has valuable benefits. Easy to carry. Compact energy source. Airplanes would be grounded the way of these radicals.

[Chloe]

You people, those that preach that doctrine have caused people to lose homes. Even jobs in many cases. Petroleum has valuable benefits. Easy to carry. Compact energy source. Airplanes would be grounded the way of these radicals.

I'd rather be a radical than a tool for the status quo

[Bob]

I'd rather be a radical than a tool for the status quo

I know you would. Things change a lot once you hold a job, have a home, have kids to take care. Then radical seems not very good.

Status Quo is parents.

[zelmo1234]

I don't despise poor people so please don't cross over into that kind of ridiculousness. Rich, poor, in between, it doesn't matter in the long run if the planet is continued to be abused. Low gas prices usually means more driving which means more emissions more harmful runoff into water systems which means more pollution and more treatment which means more energy used for things that we should be working harder to reduce, oh and it also means more traffic accidents too if you want to talk about caring for your fellow human. Low oil prices usually means that clean renewable energy takes a back seat once again since people become lazy and complacent once again. Low oil prices also typically means less recycling of things such as plastic bags since it can become more expensive for the facility to recycle them than the finished recycled product is worth so they just get sent along with other things to live in a landfill for the next 10,000 years. There's more to life than a new car, pensions, and stock prices. Without a healthy planet it's all moot.

Every Year we find ways of making fossil fuels cleaner for the environment. And you are to young to remember when you could not even see the buildings in large cities in the USA because of the smog.

What bothers me is that many on the left find it an acceptable consequence that many less fortunate families have to choose between food and heat, because as President Obama Said, energy prices will necessarily skyrocket as we switch to green energy.

Less expensive energy makes many things possible including making manufacturing more competitive in the USA. Nothing is stopping those that don't want to drive larger cars from driving the small cars. And as you tried to point out in your post with more driving comes more accidents, and with smaller cars more of those accidents result in deaths.

So while it is not your intention to punish those of lower economic status, it is a fact that the policies that you support do punish them. So while I put spin on it for sure, you can't deny that higher energy makes life worse for the less fortunate in the USA

[zelmo1234]

A better wage, a better economic system, a better incentive to work, a better society that looks after each other, better employers, a better education system, a better infrastructure, and a better government would all do far more for the poor than a 50 cent difference for gas at the pump would ever do. If you think lower gas prices is going to somehow turn someones fortunes around then you have a lot more faith in a fossil fuel run, profits before people focused economy than I do.

and the Earth is not as healthy as it could be. I'm healthy but that doesn't mean that I don't take care of myself for today and for the future.

the problem is? Many of the policies that the left supports including much of the environmental issues, does not create a better wage, better economy, It does not support better paying jobs or even full time jobs for that matter

If we did not have to compete with countries that don't have the same restrictions it would be one thing, but in this world we do and each and every regulation that causes energy prices to rise, causes jobs to move to places where manufacturing is ore competitive, and many times that means more pollution in the world not less

[Tahuyaman]

I know you would. Things change a lot once you hold a job, have a home, have kids to take care. Then radical seems not very good.

Status Quo is parents.

yes, people tend to change once they are required to work for a living and earn their own standing in life.

Once you are forced to move out of your parents home and support yourself, your perspective changes.

[Tahuyaman]

I don't despise poor people so please don't cross over into that kind of ridiculousness. Rich, poor, in between, it doesn't matter in the long run if the planet is continued to be abused. Low gas prices usually means more driving which means more emissions more harmful runoff into water systems which means more pollution and more treatment which means more energy used for things that we should be working harder to reduce, oh and it also means more traffic accidents too if you want to talk about caring for your fellow human. Low oil prices usually means that clean renewable energy takes a back seat once again since people become lazy and complacent once again. Low oil prices also typically means less recycling of things such as plastic bags since it can become more expensive for the facility to recycle them than the finished recycled product is worth so they just get sent along with other things to live in a landfill for the next 10,000 years. There's more to life than a new car, pensions, and stock prices. Without a healthy planet it's all moot.

Kum-ba-ya my lord, Kum-ba-ya. Kum-ba-ya my lord, Kum-ba-ya. Someone's crying lord, Kum-ba-ya.....someone's crying lord, Kum-ba-ya.........

[Tahuyaman]

Earth is healthy. Stop worrying about it. The poor have to buy food and shelter. Your way they can't travel.

Actually, people who believe the same as her want the poor to stay exactly where they are now. They certainly don't want them mobile enough to eventually move into their neighborhoods.

[Tahuyaman]

A better wage, a better economic system, a better incentive to work, a better society that looks after each other, better employers, a better education system, a better infrastructure, and a better government would all do far more for the poor than a 50 cent difference for gas at the pump would ever do. If you think lower gas prices is going to somehow turn someones fortunes around then you have a lot more faith in a fossil fuel run, profits before people focused economy than I do.

and the Earth is not as healthy as it could be. I'm healthy but that doesn't mean that I don't take care of myself for today and for the future.

The indoctrination was quite effective with this one. It's going to take years of real life lessons to straighten her out.

[Cletus]

I agree, I dont think her age has anything to do with her opinions on the environment and animal cruelty. Id bet she has the same views 25 yrs from now.

Yeah, and she will still be driving to go see a movie and have dinner and using a computer made from refined fossil fuels, powered by electricity generated by the burning of fossil fuels and telling everybody how evil it is to use fossil fuels.

[Chloe]

Every Year we find ways of making fossil fuels cleaner for the environment. And you are to young to remember when you could not even see the buildings in large cities in the USA because of the smog.

What bothers me is that many on the left find it an acceptable consequence that many less fortunate families have to choose between food and heat, because as President Obama Said, energy prices will necessarily skyrocket as we switch to green energy.

Less expensive energy makes many things possible including making manufacturing more competitive in the USA. Nothing is stopping those that don't want to drive larger cars from driving the small cars. And as you tried to point out in your post with more driving comes more accidents, and with smaller cars more of those accidents result in deaths.

So while it is not your intention to punish those of lower economic status, it is a fact that the policies that you support do punish them. So while I put spin on it for sure, you can't deny that higher energy makes life worse for the less fortunate in the USA

air pollution didnt get better because of people whose only focus in life was money and stocks and stature, it got better because of people that made clean air a priority over those things. The same will happen with other environmental issues that are equally important as clean air. In my opinion the health of our ecosystems and all that goes into it is more important than the individual and his/her income. In the end it doesn't matter how much money is in your bank account if all that sustains us is suffering.

[Chloe]

yes, people tend to change once they are required to work for a living and earn their own standing in life.

Once you are forced to move out of your parents home and support yourself, your perspective changes.

I'm sure for some that does happen, but I can assure you that for me it wont.

[Chloe]

Actually, people who believe the same as her want the poor to stay exactly where they are now. They certainly don't want them mobile enough to eventually move into their neighborhoods.

BS

[Chloe]

Yeah, and she will still be driving to go see a movie and have dinner and using a computer made from refined fossil fuels, powered by electricity generated by the burning of fossil fuels and telling everybody how evil it is to use fossil fuels.

Right, and i'm trying to change where that energy comes from and how its used so that our country's infrastructure and our way of life is not dependent on a dirty finite resource.

[Chloe]

the problem is? Many of the policies that the left supports including much of the environmental issues, does not create a better wage, better economy, It does not support better paying jobs or even full time jobs for that matter

If we did not have to compete with countries that don't have the same restrictions it would be one thing, but in this world we do and each and every regulation that causes energy prices to rise, causes jobs to move to places where manufacturing is ore competitive, and many times that means more pollution in the world not less

Then I guess they are focusing on the wrong type of policies and ideas. It's probably why the democratic party, like the republican party, has failed on many issues that would progress this country forward instead of rehashing the same things over and over again. Oh and creating jobs and having a good economy can be created along side good and stern environmental policy, it's not a choice of only one or the other.

[BB-35]

I'm sure for some that does happen, but I can assure you that for me it wont.
Just wait.....

[Bob]

Then I guess they are focusing on the wrong type of policies and ideas. It's probably why the democratic party, like the republican party, has failed on many issues that would progress this country forward instead of rehashing the same things over and over again. Oh and creating jobs and having a good economy can be created along side good and stern environmental policy, it's not a choice of only one or the other.

If the loaf of bread costs ten dollars, who will buy it when it was affordable at $2.50

Fuels works the same way.

[zelmo1234]

air pollution didnt get better because of people whose only focus in life was money and stocks and stature, it got better because of people that made clean air a priority over those things. The same will happen with other environmental issues that are equally important as clean air. In my opinion the health of our ecosystems and all that goes into it is more important than the individual and his/her income. In the end it doesn't matter how much money is in your bank account if all that sustains us is suffering.

Chloe the environmentalist movement is about MONEY, Look at the money that Al Gore has made all while being one of the largest stock holders in the oil industry? Why do you think that the scientist tried to hide the fact that the earth has not been warming for the last 15 years? Money.

And actually the reduction of Air pollution had everything to do with money. You don't think that those products come for free do you? If you do I hope that you never have one of the cadilatic converters go bad in you car, they certainly are not cheep.

You are still young and don't see that the people that are working to save the world, are not doing it for free.

[zelmo1234]

Then I guess they are focusing on the wrong type of policies and ideas. It's probably why the democratic party, like the republican party, has failed on many issues that would progress this country forward instead of rehashing the same things over and over again. Oh and creating jobs and having a good economy can be created along side good and stern environmental policy, it's not a choice of only one or the other.

To some extent what you are saying is true, the Democrats want the environmental issue, so they really can't solve the problem. And if clean energy becomes cheaper than fossil fuels, then you would be correct, it would not have an effect on the economy. But when they drive the price of production up, it has a very negative effect.

[Bob]

To some extent what you are saying is true, the Democrats want the environmental issue, so they really can't solve the problem. And if clean energy becomes cheaper than fossil fuels, then you would be correct, it would not have an effect on the economy. But when they drive the price of production up, it has a very negative effect.

People need to learn the proper way to calculate cost of energy and this means alternatives must cost in favor of the public to be worth it to them.

Take a windmill for instance. When you calculate the cost vs benefits, generally it is unfavorable to the windmill. Why? Because of the other power source that must be reliable even during times of no wind.

[texan]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

Deep Thoughts by Jack Chloe, please don't hurt yourself.

[Peter1469]

People need to learn the proper way to calculate cost of energy and this means alternatives must cost in favor of the public to be worth it to them.

Take a windmill for instance. When you calculate the cost vs benefits, generally it is unfavorable to the windmill. Why? Because of the other power source that must be reliable even during times of no wind.

What happens when you add the costs of health care for people who get asthma or lung cancer from pollution caused by fossil fuels? Gas isn't so cheap anymore.....

[donttread]

What happens when you add the costs of health care for people who get asthma or lung cancer from pollution caused by fossil fuels? Gas isn't so cheap anymore.....

Or the cost and loss of transporting electricity hundreds of miles when it can and should be produced at the community, building and individual home level

[Peter1469]

Or the cost and loss of transporting electricity hundreds of miles when it can and should be produced at the community, building and individual home level

That will be efficient with the new Tesla battery.

[southwest88]

What happens when you add the costs of health care for people who get asthma or lung cancer from pollution caused by fossil fuels? Gas isn't so cheap anymore.....

Or emphysema, acid rain (loss of trees & groundcover, acidification of lakes, the wildlife associated with both, flooding, topsoil/humus loss, loss of habitat, loss of fish, loss of tourism, possible economic impacts of loss of tourism, possible loss of logging, loss of pasturage), breathing problems related to micro particle inhalation. The extraction of coal, even conventional oil/gas & fracking, also produces micro particle & potential water & chemical contamination of soil & water.

Hydraulic fracking chemicals & dirty water can be captured, sequestered (the residue of reprocessing dirty water), saline & such can be pumped back underground. The water used in the process is cleaned up when possible, to the point that it's no longer cost-effective. The wastage is then pumped underground - this is especially true where water is @ a premium - the SW, high plains, mountain areas where trucking in or tapping existing water stocks is prohibited or too expensive.

What it comes down to is that you have to calculate all the costs - health, long-term impacts to agriculture, loss or diversion of potable water, monitoring/management of underground plumes of contaminated water & fracking chemical plumes, ROI, etc. before you can make rational decisions about the trade-offs involved in energy sources. Think of the abandoned gold mine in CO that EPA is taking heat for - there are hundreds, if not thousands of such gold, silver, maybe uranium & etc. mines in the mountain states in the SW, & similar issues across the US. Those all have to be IDed, evaluated, & if necessary (for water contamination or chemical leakage issues) remediated.

[OGIS]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

Every single thing you buy - food, clothing, appliances, home repair things - must be transported from wherever they are grown or manufactured. High gas prices therefore increase the cost of everything.

I suppose we could establish a two-tier system for gas prices. Let's see, we could force people to register with the government and prove that they were transporting goods for sale. They would get free ration cards which would allow them to purchase so much gas based on the approved gas mileage their truck got. Wasteful consumers who drive for non-approved silly reasons, on the other hand, would have to pay a high fee to the State for their ration cards. Yes, that would totes work.

[Peter1469]

Every single thing you buy - food, clothing, appliances, home repair things - must be transported from wherever they are grown or manufactured. High gas prices therefore increase the cost of everything.

I suppose we could establish a two-tier system for gas prices. Let's see, we could force people to register with the government and prove that they were transporting goods for sale. They would get free ration cards which would allow them to purchase so much gas based on the approved gas mileage their truck got. Wasteful consumers who drive for non-approved silly reasons, on the other hand, would have to pay a high fee to the State for their ration cards. Yes, that would totes work.

We do the opposite. We impose a very high tax on diesel fuel because it doesn't hit ordinary citizens- most Americans have gas driven cars.

And ordinary citizens don't connect the dots: high diesel fuel costs get passed onto ordinary citizens through increased transportation costs of everyday goods.

[Bob]

What happens when you add the costs of health care for people who get asthma or lung cancer from pollution caused by fossil fuels? Gas isn't so cheap anymore.....

I have never seen medical reports that make that claim. Gas here is now down to $2.73 for regular. The modern auto has removed the pollution.

[Cigar]

...atleast to me

I know on the surface that gas prices being really low seems like a great thing, however, on the other side of the coin in my opinion it will only encourage a lot more driving, it will reassure people that are currently looking at buying a new car to consider bigger gas guzzling SUVs, and it will continue our fixation on fossil fuels and will kick the can even further down the road for true change and for our planet's recovery. I know that I am probably in an extreme minority but a big part of me wishes that the prices were reversed. Cheaper gas is nice for the short term but it's not better for the long term. Even with new vehicles having higher emission standards it's not enough in my opinion. Having higher efficiency standards, better use of technology, AND less cars on the road is the proper route in my opinion. I'm holding back on some opinions right now but all I am saying is that I know it seems great but I really think we should be careful and not be drawn into a false sense of happiness and security over this. It may be temporarily good for your wallet right now, but it's bad overall in my opinion.

What does Gas Prices mean to me ... I say the lower the better, I need a break from the last several years.

I have only one vehicle that buns regular ... and that's my Buick Enclave.

My wife's BMW and my Corvette burns premium at octane levels between 90 and 93.

But I have to drive 10 miles to get the higher octane fuel, over 95, for my 1970 Buick and that hurts the wallet.

[Bob]

What does Gas Prices mean to me ... I say the lower the better, I need a break from the last several years.

I have only one vehicle that buns regular ... and that's my Buick Enclave.

My wife's BMW and my Corvette burns premium at octane levels between 90 and 93.

But I have to drive 10 miles to get the higher octane fuel, over 95, for my 1970 Buick and that hurts the wallet.

You can buy 110 octane airplane fuel if you can get the FBO to sell you some. Blend it with regular.

[Peter1469]

I have never seen medical reports that make that claim. Gas here is now down to $2.73 for regular. The modern auto has removed the pollution.

You missed it, I guess.

[Bob]

Alcohol fueled cars (http://www.energyvictory.net/) would be cheaper once the infrastructure was in place to service them.

Brazil has done it.

http://www.permaculture.com/node/518

[Bob]

You missed it, I guess.

With your help, I still have missed it.

[Cigar]

You can buy 110 octane airplane fuel if you can get the FBO to sell you some. Blend it with regular.

The entire point of having higher octane, is easier and faster burn with higher stroke and more fuel.

You can achieve that at lower octane with a Nitro spray :laugh:

http://image.spreadshirtmedia.net/image-server/v1/designs/16113938,width=178,height=178/All-Gas-No-Brakes-Speed-Racing.png

[Peter1469]

Brazil has done it.

http://www.permaculture.com/node/518

I know. They did it the wrong way, but it worked over time.

Robert Zubrin has a better idea. (http://www.energyvictory.net/)

[Peter1469]

With your help, I still have missed it.

Don't look at me. I had nothing to do with you missing it.

[Bob]

The entire point of having higher octane, is easier and faster burn with higher stroke and more fuel.

You can achieve that at lower octane with a Nitro spray :laugh:



http://image.spreadshirtmedia.net/image-server/v1/designs/16113938,width=178,height=178/All-Gas-No-Brakes-Speed-Racing.png

Higher octane slows down the burn rate. Regular burns so fast it knocks in high compression engines.

If you notice, your cars with high compression need the high octane fuel.

[Cigar]

Higher octane slows down the burn rate. Regular burns so fast it knocks in high compression engines.

If you notice, your cars with high compression need the high octane fuel.

Octane is simply a measure of the fuel makeup

Higher Octane is simply a measure of fuel makeup, more fuel, more burn and clearer burn.

Compression? the more pure fuel you have the less compression required to achieve da-burn :laugh:

Lots of stroke, lots of power ... lots a fuel burn

[Bob]

Octane is simply a measure of the fuel makeup

Higher Octane is simply a measure of fuel makeup, more fuel, more burn and clearer burn.

Compression? the more pure fuel you have the less compression required to achieve da-burn :laugh:

Lots of stroke, lots of power ... lots a fuel burn

Actually you are wrong and i doubt you would listen. I tried already.

Study octane though. You will learn a lot.

[Peter1469]

Actually you are wrong and i doubt you would listen. I tried already.

Study octane though. You will learn a lot.

I want to study octane. Where should I look?

[Bob]

I want to study octane. Where should I look?

There are some good materials on fuels. Google those first. I own a text book that I purchased from Professor Charles Taylor at MIT when he lived. The book is awesome but doubt you can find it on Amazon. It is called the Internal Combustion engine, in theory and practice and includes a good section on fuels. That is most of my source. But I studied this a lot back when I raced cars.

You can still get the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Combustion-Engine-Theory-Practice/dp/0262700263/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441923441&sr=8-1&keywords=Internal+combustion+engine+in+theory

12600

[Cigar]

Actually you are wrong and i doubt you would listen. I tried already.

Study octane though. You will learn a lot.

Ok I'm wrong, but when I'm going down a quarter-mile track I'm right in front. Higher end fuels offer a performance improvements over the lower octane fuel due to better burning characteristics. Now if YOUR individual Car is SETUP to utilize octane ranges between 94 and 98 (BELOW JET FUEL Rating), you will clearly know the difference from pumped Premium.

Naturally, your individual results based on YOUR engine specification will vary.

Want to know what's under my hood, I'd be happen to show you at the fat en of the track :laugh:

[donttread]

I heard a good one on the radio today. Lower oil prices are making it harder for the FED to raise interest rates? Perhaps they should of thought about , oh I don't know before of immediately after the housing boom, inflation/ bust? They've had 6-7 years for God's sake.

[Peter1469]

There are some good materials on fuels. Google those first. I own a text book that I purchased from Professor Charles Taylor at MIT when he lived. The book is awesome but doubt you can find it on Amazon. It is called the Internal Combustion engine, in theory and practice and includes a good section on fuels. That is most of my source. But I studied this a lot back when I raced cars.

You can still get the book.

http://www.amazon.com/Internal-Combustion-Engine-Theory-Practice/dp/0262700263/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441923441&sr=8-1&keywords=Internal+combustion+engine+in+theory

12600

Thanks. Off to study.

[Bob]

Ok I'm wrong, but when I'm going down a quarter-mile track I'm right in front. Higher end fuels offer a performance improvements over the lower octane fuel due to better burning characteristics. Now if YOUR individual Car is SETUP to utilize octane ranges between 94 and 98 (BELOW JET FUEL Rating), you will clearly know the difference from pumped Premium.

Naturally, your individual results based on YOUR engine specification will vary.

Want to know what's under my hood, I'd be happen to show you at the fat en of the track :laugh:





Octane is a measurement of how fast or slow fuel burns.

The purpose of high octane is to allow higher compression ratios. Such as 8 to 1 for regular low octane fuel vs 110 high octane if your compression ratio is 13 to one as an example.

Race engines run up to about 16 to 1 if they burn very high octane fuels.

Add a supercharger and toss that out the window. Then you want low compression ratios since the supercharger supplies a lot of the air. Still you want high octane with the supercharger since it in effect raises the compression ratio ... not to be taken as a true raise in compression ratio. The compression ratio is found by dividing the chamber in the heads into the volume of the cylinder.

Your better high octane fuels work better since they burn slower. This seems not to make sense but the fast burn at low octane stops pushing as hard as the piston moves down the cylinder. The high octane fuels shove longer so you want a slower burn.

It is like the high octane lasts longer and gives more net push on the piston. The low octane runs out of power as the piston goes down.

This is why I wanted some to google this topic.

Jet fuel is a type of kerosene rather than gasoline. Jet fuels are closer to diesel than to gasoline.

[Bob]

When you remove the heads of engines (not motors since those are electric) you notice where the spark plug comes in the head is not flat. it has a pocket for burning gases.

If it has 2 cubic inches and the cylinder has 20 cubic inches, the compression ratio is 10 to 1.

During the 1930s, the most common compression ratio was about 8 to 1. As fuels improved, using lead to raise the octane, they were able to sell new cars with 10 to 1 ratios.

The Corvette should have about 10 up to 11 to 1 ratio.

[Tahuyaman]

Tahuyaman

Actually, people who believe the same as her want the poor to stay exactly where they are now. They certainly don't want them mobile enough to eventually move into their neighborhoods.



BS

Thats not BS. When the poor start to step out of there current situation and gain some upward mobility, the liberal elitists do not like seeing those people raised with lower class values filtering into their neighborhoods.

[Cigar]

Octane is a measurement of how fast or slow fuel burns.

The purpose of high octane is to allow higher compression ratios. Such as 8 to 1 for regular low octane fuel vs 110 high octane if your compression ratio is 13 to one as an example.

Race engines run up to about 16 to 1 if they burn very high octane fuels.

Add a supercharger and toss that out the window. Then you want low compression ratios since the supercharger supplies a lot of the air. Still you want high octane with the supercharger since it in effect raises the compression ratio ... not to be taken as a true raise in compression ratio. The compression ratio is found by dividing the chamber in the heads into the volume of the cylinder.

Your better high octane fuels work better since they burn slower. This seems not to make sense but the fast burn at low octane stops pushing as hard as the piston moves down the cylinder. The high octane fuels shove longer so you want a slower burn.

It is like the high octane lasts longer and gives more net push on the piston. The low octane runs out of power as the piston goes down.

This is why I wanted some to google this topic.

Jet fuel is a type of kerosene rather than gasoline. Jet fuels are closer to diesel than to gasoline.

I want a supercharger for my Vette :grin:

[Cigar]

When you remove the heads of engines (not motors since those are electric) you notice where the spark plug comes in the head is not flat. it has a pocket for burning gases.

If it has 2 cubic inches and the cylinder has 20 cubic inches, the compression ratio is 10 to 1.

During the 1930s, the most common compression ratio was about 8 to 1. As fuels improved, using lead to raise the octane, they were able to sell new cars with 10 to 1 ratios.

The Corvette should have about 10 up to 11 to 1 ratio.
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) The Factory LS6 has a 10.5:1 compression ratio ... but who's factory anymore. :laugh:

[Tahuyaman]

air pollution didnt get better because of people whose only focus in life was money and stocks and stature, it got better because of people that made clean air a priority over those things. The same will happen with other environmental issues that are equally important as clean air. In my opinion the health of our ecosystems and all that goes into it is more important than the individual and his/her income. In the end it doesn't matter how much money is in your bank account if all that sustains us is suffering.


Improvements in our infrastructure don't happen because idealists wish it so. It takes people with money, resources and the willingness to put their wealth at risk to create these things which we all benefit from.

[Cigar]

Improvements in our infrastructure don't happen because idealists wish it so. It takes people with money, resources and the willingness to put their wealth at risk to create these things which we all benefit from.

Name ONE Single (1) Private Job Creator who will put their wealth at risk to maintain America's Roads, Bridges and Power Grid !

Name One (1)

[nic34]

I stand by it. There are a lot of other things we as a society can do along the way but cheap gasoline in the present only keeps us from looking towards our future.

I'm rooting for young people like you. Don't lose your idealism.....:wink:

[Tahuyaman]

Name ONE Single (1) Private Job Creator who will put their wealth at risk to maintain America's Roads, Bridges and Power Grid !

Name One (1)

Cigar is a guy who thinks good things happen only because government orders it to be. He believes industry makes improvement in their operations only because government orders those improvements.

[Bob]

I want a supercharger for my Vette :grin:

How willing are you to rebuild the engine? If it is very low miles, you might make it work. Superchargers put a lot more stress on the moving parts. Also, unless you are an expert, you will want an expert to install one. They will give you a lot more power depending on the boost. Boost is the added pressure caused by the supercharger. Bear in mind the factory designed it not to have a supercharger. But this does not mean you would blow up the engine, since it may indeed be able to stand one on the engine. Then you have to consider type of supercharger. They come in various configurations. From the exhaust driven turbocharger to the rather large Roots type known often as a 3-71 or 4-71 or 6-71. Do plenty or research first if you want it done your way. Good luck. They will really give you a lot more power. Factory installations often have up to 7 to 8 pounds of boost. But the racers have a lot more than that. They can have 40 pounds of boost. Alfa Romeo once built race engines with around 70 pounds of boost. They were monster powerful and super small. They were 1.5 liters and produced around 700 hp I think it was. I no longer have my project data on that particular engine. The main idea is you can dial up so much power you can be dangerous behind the wheel.

[Bob]

@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) The Factory LS6 has a 10.5:1 compression ratio ... but who's factory anymore. :laugh:

That is why I said from 10 to 11 to one. I have never worked on that engine package but have built corvettes that did about 130 mph in 1/4 mile. So i have built some very powerful engines.

You have 405 hp and the corvette I built the engine for had about 450 hp.

[Cigar]

That is why I said from 10 to 11 to one. I have never worked on that engine package but have built corvettes that did about 130 mph in 1/4 mile. So i have built some very powerful engines.

You have 405 hp and the corvette I built the engine for had about 450 hp.
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) I went way past 405, like 2 months after I got the car

MTI Stage IIR Headers, underdrive pulley, Cranes Rockers ... and little squirt something something :grin:
MassFlow Upgrades, Haltech Stinger Intake
Percussion 2800 Stall, harden driveshaft into Std A4 315 gears
SLP Long-tubes, into Corsa X-pipe, into Corsa Daytona Indy’s Catbacks
Plus many many more little bolt-on's that Dyno out past 480 RWHP

Been doing upper 12s without drag radials

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/chasc5/IMG_0595.jpg

The Buick is still to heavy and needs Rear End rebuilt and upgrades

[OGIS]

Thats not BS. When the poor start to step out of there current situation and gain some upward mobility, the liberal elitists do not like seeing those people raised with lower class values filtering into their neighborhoods.

There's a book you should read.

12628

Other than your required Pavlovian ZOMFG identification of the culprits as "Libs! Libs!Libs!" (protip: Very Old Money has no actual affiliation, political or otherwise, other than Money) you do have a point. The real PTB have been nervous ever since the serfs gained the ability to travel farther than a mile or so from the point they were born, would be worked as a slave, and eventually die in a nameless ditch or as slop for the Manor Lord's pigs.

They view Henry Ford as a Class Enemy and Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as twin Antichrists. They work towards a world where the movement and knowledge of the "serfs" (everyone other than them) is tightly controlled.

If you (1) actually sit down and analyze politics and social/cultural trends for the last couple of centuries, and (2) analyze the mechanics of the Shell Game, this will become clear to you. Otherwise you will just be a Useful Tool.

[Tahuyaman]

There's a book you should read.

12628

Other than your required Pavlovian ZOMFG identification of the culprits as "Libs! Libs!Libs!" (protip: Very Old Money has no actual affiliation, political or otherwise, other than Money) you do have a point. The real PTB have been nervous ever since the serfs gained the ability to travel farther than a mile or so from the point they were born, would be worked as a slave, and eventually die in a nameless ditch or as slop for the Manor Lord's pigs.

They view Henry Ford as a Class Enemy and Bill Gates and Steve Jobs as twin Antichrists. They work towards a world where the movement and knowledge of the "serfs" (everyone other than them) is tightly controlled.

If you (1) actually sit down and analyze politics and social/cultural trends for the last couple of centuries, and (2) analyze the mechanics of the Shell Game, this will become clear to you. Otherwise you will just be a Useful Tool.


That doesn't dispute the idea that the liberal elitists disapprove of the poor getting out of their current condition and bringing their " poor person values" into their neighborhoods.

[OGIS]

That doesn't dispute the idea that the liberal elitists disapprove of the poor getting out of their current condition and bringing their " poor person values" into their neighborhoods.

The top rungs of those "liberal elitists" all golf at the same exclusive country clubs (that you and I will never see except as Hired Help) as their "conservative elitist" close friends.

And they are all laughing at you.

[Tahuyaman]

The top rungs of those "liberal elitists" all golf at the same exclusive country clubs (that you and I will never see except as Hired Help) as their "conservative elitist" close friends.

And they are all laughing at you.

They surely are laughing at you.

[Bob]

@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) I went way past 405, like 2 months after I got the car

MTI Stage IIR Headers, underdrive pulley, Cranes Rockers ... and little squirt something something :grin:
MassFlow Upgrades, Haltech Stinger Intake
Percussion 2800 Stall, harden driveshaft into Std A4 315 gears
SLP Long-tubes, into Corsa X-pipe, into Corsa Daytona Indy’s Catbacks
Plus many many more little bolt-on's that Dyno out past 480 RWHP

Been doing upper 12s without drag radials

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b137/chasc5/IMG_0595.jpg

The Buick is still to heavy and needs Rear End rebuilt and upgrades

I can't predict your hp based on what you installed. But Check out this calculator

Your car with no driver is 3245 pounds. Add your weight to get corrected numbers.

http://www.ajdesigner.com/fl_horsepower_elapsed_time/horsepower_elapsed_time.php

[Chloe]

Not to be debbie downer but can you guys please stop talking about cars and engines

[Chloe]

Improvements in our infrastructure don't happen because idealists wish it so. It takes people with money, resources and the willingness to put their wealth at risk to create these things which we all benefit from.

True improvements in our infrastructure WILL happen BECAUSE of idealists. Without idealists where would ideas come from? Who would have the motivation to challenge the status quo if there weren't an idealistic? Yes it takes money and resources to improvement infrastructure but all we are currently doing is ignoring our infrastruture and when we do notice it we still only improve through means of the past and for resources of the past. Instead of replacing a highway light with another same highway light why not replace it with sensor activated lights so that they are only using energy when necessary? When we repair roads in downtowns why just simply repave it when we could add more bike lanes and reduce the amount of vehicular roadways so that the air improves, congestion reduces, and people are safer to walk or ride their bikes around a downtown? I could go on and on but my point is that without an idealistic looking at something and saying "why not" then all we are left with is someone saying "meh".

[Tahuyaman]

True improvements in our infrastructure WILL happen BECAUSE of idealists.


No. It's because smart people with the resources make it happen. Often in spite of the idealists.

[Chloe]

No. It's because smart people with the resources make it happen. Often in spite of the idealists.

and what about smart idealists?

[Tahuyaman]

and what about smart idealists?

That's an oxymoron.

Well maybe not an oxymoron, but the idealists have no means to realize their ideals. All they do is pontificate. They never achieve anything.

[southwest88]

IF mankind survives long enough,we'll have to move to the outer planets,when the sun begins to go into it's red giant phase

Yah, Robert Kunzig had a nice article & graphic in National Geographic in 2010 on terraforming Mars. See http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/big-idea/07/mars

He estimates 1K years, to get Mars to the point that people only have to wear SCUBA gear to go out in atmosphere. The graphic lays out a timeline, from current conditions to survivable without a pressure suit. (He thinks it would take millennia to build up enough O2 for people to breathe freely - & likely Mars' atmosphere would freeze again before that would happen. So much for Dejah Thoris, worst luck.)

[OGIS]

Yah, Robert Kunzig had a nice article & graphic in National Geographic in 2010 on terraforming Mars. See http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/big-idea/07/mars

He estimates 1K years, to get Mars to the point that people only have to wear SCUBA gear to go out in atmosphere. The graphic lays out a timeline, from current conditions to survivable without a pressure suit. (He thinks it would take millennia to build up enough O2 for people to breathe freely - & likely Mars' atmosphere would freeze again before that would happen. So much for Dejah Thoris, worst luck.)

A connected flower of six space elevators would have a quicker payback, a larger payback, and would cost considerably less.

[OGIS]

That's an oxymoron.

Well maybe not an oxymoron, but the idealists have no means to realize their ideals. All they do is pontificate. They never achieve anything.


Gee, I wonder why?

[southwest88]

A connected flower of six space elevators would have a quicker payback, a larger payback, and would cost considerably less.

Yep, just some materials science & fabrication issues to resolve. Personally, I think we'll have space elevators long before the sempiternal 50-year mark until practicable fusion power ever arrives elapses. (The later is a movable feast, of course. & @ the end of every half-century so far, why we just pick up the goalposts & mosey on down the road.)

[Tahuyaman]

Gee, I wonder why?


Because you can't.

[OGIS]

Because you can't.

LOL. Right.

[Tahuyaman]

LOL. Right.

agreed.

[Tahuyaman]

I'm hoping the price of fuel drops a little more. In the next couple of weeks, I'm going to need to put about 300 gallons of diesel in my boat.

[Chloe]

I'm hoping the price of fuel drops a little more. In the next couple of weeks, I'm going to need to put about 300 gallons of diesel in my boat.

You must be so proud. I'm sure it's a need and not just a material want, right?

[Private Pickle]

You must be so proud. I'm sure it's a need and not just a material want, right?

So while it's obvious that Talyhoman and I don't get along, this is where you and I would get "nitpicky" with each other.

I want to point out the difference in conversations we have when we are talking about opportunities in the environmental field versus our preconceived notions and opinions on our approaches to the environment.

[Chloe]

So while it's obvious that Talyhoman and I don't get along, this is where you and I would get "nitpicky" with each other.

I want to point out the difference in conversations we have when we are talking about opportunities in the environmental field versus our preconceived notions and opinions on our approaches to the environment.

What do you mean?

[Private Pickle]

What do you mean?

Pm incoming.

[jimmyz]

I would drive exactly the same amount of miles regardless of the price of fuel. So the cost prohibitive model doesn't work for me nor the 100s of millions of other drivers throughout the world.

[Tahuyaman]

You must be so proud. I'm sure it's a need and not just a material want, right?


What's the difference if it's a need or a want? In your world, are people not allowed to enjoy their life? Are people only allowed to have the necessities in life? Your world must be a miserable place.

[Tahuyaman]

So while it's obvious that Talyhoman and I don't get along,

i have no idea whether we get along or not. I don't know you. Maybe if I did, I wouldn't think you are a dip-shit, I don't know.

[Chloe]

What's the difference if it's a need or a want? In your world, are people not allowed to enjoy their life? Are people only allowed to have the necessities in life? Your world must be a miserable place.

I'm sorry, I shouldnt have said that, i'm being a hypocrite. Nevermind.

[Private Pickle]

i have no idea whether we get along or not. I don't know you. Maybe if I did, I wouldn't think you are a dip-shit, I don't know.

"And Jordan dunks from the free throw line!"

[Private Pickle]

I'm sorry, I shouldnt have said that, i'm being a hypocrite. Nevermind.

You suck at Internet lying.

[Tahuyaman]

"And Jordan dunks from the free throw line!"


Yes, it was an " in your face" type of dunk.

[Private Pickle]

Yes, it was an " in your face" type of dunk.

I agree.

[Tahuyaman]

You suck at Internet lying.

She didn't lie.