Can Bernie Keep Socialism Alive?

[Chris]

Can Bernie Keep Socialism Alive? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/09/bernie-sanders-socialism-eugene-v-debs-213093?o=0) is a long but interesting historical piece on Sanders' great influence Eugene Dobs and an attempt at answering that question. I can only highlight a few paragraphs. I leave out all the ways socialism has influenced US politics, figuring you know all rhat.


...The 20th century’s most renowned American socialist, Debs has long been a hero to leftists and radicals of many persuasions. Numerous children were named after him; so were a radio station, a town in Minnesota and a couple of beers. In Sanders’ quaint, low-budget 1979 documentary, Eugene V. Debs—issued by the now-defunct American People’s Historical Society of 295½ Maple Street in Burlington—Debs is given the full Howard Zinn treatment, depicted as a fighter on behalf of exploited workers, a fearless critic of ruthless corporate power and a martyr to free speech.

...For generations historians have asked why there has never been a major socialist movement in American politics—at least not compared with Western European democracies, where socialist parties have often held power or exerted decisive influence. In scholarly circles, the very question—“Why is there no socialism in the United States?”—first posed by the German sociologist Werner Sombart in 1906, has been asked so often it has become a cliché.

To many scholars, the question lost relevance after communism fell in Eastern Europe and the Western European socialist parties abandoned their statist agendas for American-style platforms of regulating capitalism and correcting its excesses. Yet since the Great Recession, young intellectuals have been rediscovering Marx, and campus politics, fairly left wing to begin with, have veered into ever more radical terrain as movements like Occupy Wall Street have made the battle between the 1 percent and the 99 percent the front line of debate. This resurgence of radicalism—coupled with the excitement Sanders has spawned—has made Sombart’s age-old question newly germane.

...Some dyed-in-the-wool socialists still scorn Sanders as a pale copy of a real radical. And it’s true that compared to Debs, who spoke openly about ending capitalism altogether, Sanders’ platform is hardly revolutionary. But in 2016, this may be a brilliant strategy. Sanders’ best hope today is to do precisely what Eugene Debs did a century ago: to win by losing.

[Tahuyaman]

He'll keep it right where it is now

[Common Sense]

Bernie isn't really a socialist. His policies are democratic socialist.

[Chris]

Bernie isn't really a socialist. His policies are democratic socialist.

Agree: "... and the Western European socialist parties abandoned their statist agendas for American-style platforms of regulating capitalism and correcting its excesses."

[Tahuyaman]

Bernie isn't really a socialist. His policies are democratic socialist.

He's a socialist. Period. This stupid thing called "democratic socialist" is a mythical term the ultra left invented intending to soften the socialist stance. its a typical example of the dishonesty of the left. They need to deceive people in order to attract support.

It's not not fooling anyone other than a handful of fools.

[Common Sense]

He's a socialist. Period. This stupid thing called "democratic socialist" is a mythical term the ultra left invented intending to soften the socialist stance. its a typical example of the dishonesty of the left. They need to deceive people in order to attract support.

It's not not fooling anyone other than a handful of fools.

If you don't care to acknowledge or even be aware of the difference, that's your choice. It certainly doesn't change reality.

[Tahuyaman]

When liberals couldn't defend the term liberal any longer, they became progressive.s. Now that the term progressive is being associated with the far left, they are trying to make the term liberal acceptable again. It's the same thing with this democratic socialost thing.

Liberals by default are deceitful and dishonest.

[Green Arrow]

He's a socialist. Period. This stupid thing called "democratic socialist" is a mythical term the ultra left invented intending to soften the socialist stance. its a typical example of the dishonesty of the left. They need to deceive people in order to attract support.

It's not not fooling anyone other than a handful of fools.

You and Common Sense are both wrong, actually.

[Chris]

Robert Reich defines democratic socialism in The Answer Isn't Socialism; It's Capitalism That Better Spreads the Benefits of the Productivity Revolution (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/the-answer-isnt-socialism_b_1491243.html)

[Tahuyaman]

I've even heard liberals claim to be conservative. Hillary Clinton once described herself as a conservative during her time as First Lady. She said that while trying to defend some ultra left wing idea she threw out there.

[Tahuyaman]

You and @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085) are both wrong, actually.


I'm spot on.

[del]

that's nice

[Common Sense]

You and @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085) are both wrong, actually.

Can you elaborate?

[Tahuyaman]

It is nice to be right. You wouldn't know that feeling though.

[Tahuyaman]

Can you elaborate?

probably not

[Common Sense]

It is nice to be right. You wouldn't know that feeling though.

The delusional often think they are right.

[Green Arrow]

Can you elaborate?

You are wrong in that democratic socialism IS socialism. It's just one of many models/variants.

Tahuyaman is wrong in that it's not some "new" creation to make socialism sound better. Democratic socialism itself was essentially founded by Robert Owen, who died in 1858. Thomas Paine is also a forerunner of democratic socialism. It's been around since the early-to-mid 1800s.

[Tahuyaman]

The delusional often think they are right.

Is that your problem? I just chalked it up to you being a typical left wing, hand wringing kook.

[Tahuyaman]

You are wrong in that democratic socialism IS socialism. It's just one of many models/variants.

Tahuyaman is wrong in that it's not some "new" creation to make socialism sound better. Democratic socialism itself was essentially founded by Robert Owen, who died in 1858. Thomas Paine is also a forerunner of democratic socialism. It's been around since the early-to-mid 1800s.

Claiming Thomas Paine was a forerunner to "democratic socialism" is a comepte revision of history.

[Common Sense]

You are wrong in that democratic socialism IS socialism. It's just one of many models/variants.

Tahuyaman is wrong in that it's not some "new" creation to make socialism sound better. Democratic socialism itself was essentially founded by Robert Owen, who died in 1858. Thomas Paine is also a forerunner of democratic socialism. It's been around since the early-to-mid 1800s.

I never said that democratic socialism IS socialism. As you've said, there are many variations.

To call Sanders simply a socialist would be inaccurate.

[Tahuyaman]

I never said that democratic socialism IS socialism.

if you would have, you would have been correct.

[Tahuyaman]

To call Sanders simply a socialist would be inaccurate.

Then he must represent himself inaccurately as he described himself as an avowed socialist until he decided to run for President of the U.S.

[Common Sense]

if you would have, you would have been correct.

Democratic socialism is a combination of socialism and democracy.

It's like you calling beef stew a cow.

[Tahuyaman]

Some people choose to stay ignorant. It's been that way for a while. As long as those people are Canadian, I don't care.

[Common Sense]

Then he must represent himself inaccurately as he described himself as an avowed socialist until he decided to run for President of the U.S.

Maybe stop focusing on simple terms that you can't seem to grasp and just listen to what he says and means.

http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/07/08/qa-with-bernie-sanders-what-he-means-by-socialism/

Q. You’ve described yourself as a socialist and as a democratic socialist. Can you tell us what that means? A. “Democratic socialism is taking a hard look at what countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway (and) Finland … have done over the years and try to ascertain what they have done that is right, in terms of protecting the needs of millions of working families and the elderly and the children. And I think there’s much that we can learn from those countries that have had social democratic governments and labor governments or whatever.”
Q. How does this moment in history compare to others in which more Americans were drawn to support socialist principles? A. “If you look at the issues — you don’t have to worry about the word ‘socialist’ — just look at what I’m talking about. If you go out and ask the American people: Is it right that the middle class continues to disappear while there has been a massive transfer of wealth from working families to the top one-tenth of 1%? Trillions of dollars in the last 30 years have flown from the middle class to the top one-tenth of 1%. And the American people say, ‘No, that’s not right.’

[Common Sense]

Some people choose to stay ignorant. It's been that way for a while. As long as those people are Canadian, I don't care.

LOL...now you've sunk to the Mac level. Cool. It's telling.

[Tahuyaman]

That just proves my point about the deceitful nature of the left. Thank you.

[Common Sense]

That just proves my point about the deceitful nature of the left. Thank you.

LOL...you go gurl.

[Tahuyaman]

LOL...now you've sunk to the Mac level. Cool. It's telling.

actually I've always enjoyed visits to Canada. It is the most progressive third would country on earth.

[Common Sense]

actually I've always enjoyed visits to Canada. It is the most progressive third would country on earth.

What does that make the US? A fourth world nation?


;)

[Chris]

Then he must represent himself inaccurately as he described himself as an avowed socialist until he decided to run for President of the U.S.

He represents himself thus: "I'm a democratic socialist."

@ http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265

[Tahuyaman]

What does that make the US? A fourth world nation?


;)x

Yeah, that's it.

[Tahuyaman]

He represents himself thus: "I'm a democratic socialist."

@ http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/14-things-bernie-sanders-has-said-about-socialism-120265


And before he changed to that for political purposes, he described himself as an avowed socialist. He knows he doesn't have a chance at a national election unless he's successful at fooling people.

He's not able to do that though. He's only been able to fool a small handful of people who are easily fooled.

[Common Sense]

And before he changed to that for political purposes, he described himself as an avowed socialist. He knows he doesn't have a chance at a national election unless he's successful at fooling people.

He's not able to do that though. He's only been able to fool a small handful of people who are easily fooled.

He's probably one of the more honest politicians. You can disagree with his politics, but he's an honest man. Unelectable in my opinion, but honest.

[Tahuyaman]

He's probably one of the more honest politicians. You can disagree with his politics, but he's an honest man. Unelectable in my opinion, but honest.

I will say that he really does believe in the things he says. But even he knows that he needed to redefine his self described philosophical stance in order to have any chance in a national election.

[Chris]

And before he changed to that for political purposes, he described himself as an avowed socialist. He knows he doesn't have a chance at a national election unless he's successful at fooling people.

He's not able to do that though. He's only been able to fool a small handful of people who are easily fooled.


I've read a lot of what he's said and never seen that. Got a source?

[Green Arrow]

Claiming Thomas Paine was a forerunner to "democratic socialism" is a comepte revision of history.

Not really. Paine advocated a national wage subsidized by government.

[Green Arrow]

I never said that democratic socialism IS socialism. As you've said, there are many variations.

Right, you said that democratic socialism isn't socialism. It is socialism, though.


To call Sanders simply a socialist would be inaccurate.

Not really. I'm white, but specifically, my family is of Scotch-Irish heritage. It's not inaccurate to call me simply white, because I am white. Sanders is a socialist, he just follows a specific school of thought within socialism.

You could call it overly simplistic to simply call him a socialist, but not inaccurate.

[Tahuyaman]

I've read a lot of what he's said and never seen that. Got a source?

if you were as informed as you seem to think, you'd know that this term "democratic socialist" is new for him.

If you had done your research as you claim, you'd see that he cozied up to every socialist, pro communist regime in existence in the 1980's. He frequently visited and declared support for Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua when he was killing his opposition there. He collaborated with the Soviets during the Reagan years trying to disarm America.

Now he's trying to disassociate himself with his past and soft pedal his views. Fortunately, people with both memory and an ability to reason aren't buying it.

[Chris]

if you were as informed as you seem to think, you'd know that this term "democratic socialist" is new for him.

If you had done your research as you claim, you'd see that he cozied up to every socialist, pro communist regime in existence in the 1980's. He frequently visited and declared support for Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua when he was killing his opposition there. He collaborated with the Soviets during the Reagan years trying to disarm America.

Now he's trying to disassociate himself with his past and soft pedal his views. Fortunately, people with both memory and an ability to reason aren't buying it.

So it's my fault you've got nothing.

[kilgram]

Democratic socialism is a combination of socialism and democracy.

It's like you calling beef stew a cow.
Socialdemocracy (the old/classic one) is that political system that defends the achievement of the socialist society through the liberal democracy.

And, no, democracy is not only the liberal democracy that is what feat has the socialdemocracy, the combination of the socialism and the liberal democracy. That usually brings to the betrayal of any initial plan to implant any kind of socialism.

Socialdemocrats usually have been the ones that have done the strongest capitalist reforms.

[Tahuyaman]

So it's my fault you've got nothing.

no, it's your fault you choose to remain uninformed. If you weren't so lazy, you could find this information on your own in less than 30 seconds. Do you need someone to hold your hand and spoon feed you information?

[Redrose]

Can Bernie Keep Socialism Alive? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/09/bernie-sanders-socialism-eugene-v-debs-213093?o=0) is a long but interesting historical piece on Sanders' great influence Eugene Dobs and an attempt at answering that question. I can only highlight a few paragraphs. I leave out all the ways socialism has influenced US politics, figuring you know all rhat.


Can Bernie keep Bernie alive?

[Tahuyaman]

Democratic socialism is a combination of socialism and democracy.

Which one holds the higher priority?

[Tahuyaman]

Can Bernie keep Bernie alive?


I hope someone keeps that loon in the race to the bitter end.

[Chris]

Can Bernie keep Bernie alive?

I don't think he has a good chance of winning unless liberals are willing to acknowledge their politics.

Biden will enter the race soon anyhow, I predict.

[Chris]

no, it's your fault you choose to remain uninformed. If you weren't so lazy, you could find this information on your own in less than 30 seconds. Do you need someone to hold your hand and spoon feed you information?

I asked you to inform. I got nothing.

[Chris]

Socialdemocracy (the old/classic one) is that political system that defends the achievement of the socialist society through the liberal democracy.

And, no, democracy is not only the liberal democracy that is what feat has the socialdemocracy, the combination of the socialism and the liberal democracy. That usually brings to the betrayal of any initial plan to implant any kind of socialism.

Socialdemocrats usually have been the ones that have done the strongest capitalist reforms.

We're discussing American politics here, if you read the UP, so your European definitions don't fit, sorry.

[Tahuyaman]

I asked you to inform. I got nothing.

its easily accessed. Do you need someone to hold your hand and spoon feed you information?

[Tahuyaman]

This is why Bermie Sanders needs to get people to forget his past and his true colors.....

"In 1985 Sanders traveled (http://keywiki.org/Bernie_Sanders) to Managua, Nicaragua (http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/i-m-right-and-everybody-else-is-wrong-clear-about-that-20140618) to celebrate the sixth anniversary of the rise to power of Daniel Ortega and his Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. In a letter (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/bernie-sanders-profile-democrat-presidential-candidate) which he addressed to the people of Nicaragua, Sanders denounced the anti-Communist activities of the Reagan administration, which he said was under the control of corporate interests. Assuring the Nicaraguans that Americans were "fair minded people" who had more to offer "than the bombs and economic sabotage" promoted by Reagan, he declared: "In the long run, I am certain that you will win, and that your heroic revolution against the Somoza dictatorship will be maintained and strengthened."

"By no means was Sanders's trip to Nicaragua his only trek to a Communist country. He also (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420228/bernie-sanderss-soviet-honeymoon-john-fund) visited Fidel Castro (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=912)'s Cuba in the 1980s (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/bernie-sanders-profile-democrat-presidential-candidate) and had a friendly meeting with the mayor of Havana."
"When Sanders in 1988 married his wife, Jane, the couple honeymooned (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420228/bernie-sanderss-soviet-honeymoon-john-fund) in Yaroslavl, Russia. In an interview with that city's mayor, Alexander Riabkov, Sanders acknowledged that housing and health care were "significantly better" in the U.S. than in the Soviet Union, but added that "the cost of both services is much, much, higher in the United States."

In November 1989 Sanders addressed (http://keywiki.org/Bernie_Sanders) the national conference of the U.S. Peace Council (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7706), a Communist Party USA (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7511) front. The event focused (http://www.aim.org/aim-column/should-the-nsa-be-watching-senator-sanders/) on how to "end the Cold War" and "fund human needs." Fellow speakers included such notables as Leslie Cagan (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=629), John Conyers (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1987), and Manning Marable (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2229)."

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-proud-self-proclaimed-democratic-socialist/#G1mOVLfJJeDfxuDt.99

[del]

i don't think bernie's counting on the morons who genuflect at the altar of st ronnie for votes

[Tahuyaman]

i don't think bernie's counting on the morons who genuflect at the altar of st ronnie for votes


Hes counting on the clueless dolts who have their collective head in rectal defilade. They see the ones easily fooled.

[del]

Hes counting on the clueless dolts who have their collective head in rectal defilade. They see the ones easily fooled.

he's contacted you already?

[Green Arrow]

This is why Bermie Sanders needs to get people to forget his past and his true colors.....

"In 1985 Sanders traveled (http://keywiki.org/Bernie_Sanders) to Managua, Nicaragua (http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/i-m-right-and-everybody-else-is-wrong-clear-about-that-20140618) to celebrate the sixth anniversary of the rise to power of Daniel Ortega and his Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. In a letter (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/bernie-sanders-profile-democrat-presidential-candidate) which he addressed to the people of Nicaragua, Sanders denounced the anti-Communist activities of the Reagan administration, which he said was under the control of corporate interests. Assuring the Nicaraguans that Americans were "fair minded people" who had more to offer "than the bombs and economic sabotage" promoted by Reagan, he declared: "In the long run, I am certain that you will win, and that your heroic revolution against the Somoza dictatorship will be maintained and strengthened."

"By no means was Sanders's trip to Nicaragua his only trek to a Communist country. He also (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420228/bernie-sanderss-soviet-honeymoon-john-fund) visited Fidel Castro (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=912)'s Cuba in the 1980s (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/bernie-sanders-profile-democrat-presidential-candidate) and had a friendly meeting with the mayor of Havana."
"When Sanders in 1988 married his wife, Jane, the couple honeymooned (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420228/bernie-sanderss-soviet-honeymoon-john-fund) in Yaroslavl, Russia. In an interview with that city's mayor, Alexander Riabkov, Sanders acknowledged that housing and health care were "significantly better" in the U.S. than in the Soviet Union, but added that "the cost of both services is much, much, higher in the United States."

In November 1989 Sanders addressed (http://keywiki.org/Bernie_Sanders) the national conference of the U.S. Peace Council (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7706), a Communist Party USA (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7511) front. The event focused (http://www.aim.org/aim-column/should-the-nsa-be-watching-senator-sanders/) on how to "end the Cold War" and "fund human needs." Fellow speakers included such notables as Leslie Cagan (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=629), John Conyers (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1987), and Manning Marable (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2229)."

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-proud-self-proclaimed-democratic-socialist/#G1mOVLfJJeDfxuDt.99

I don't see why he should run from that.

[Redrose]

This is why Bermie Sanders needs to get people to forget his past and his true colors.....

"In 1985 Sanders traveled (http://keywiki.org/Bernie_Sanders) to Managua, Nicaragua (http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/i-m-right-and-everybody-else-is-wrong-clear-about-that-20140618) to celebrate the sixth anniversary of the rise to power of Daniel Ortega and his Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. In a letter (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/bernie-sanders-profile-democrat-presidential-candidate) which he addressed to the people of Nicaragua, Sanders denounced the anti-Communist activities of the Reagan administration, which he said was under the control of corporate interests. Assuring the Nicaraguans that Americans were "fair minded people" who had more to offer "than the bombs and economic sabotage" promoted by Reagan, he declared: "In the long run, I am certain that you will win, and that your heroic revolution against the Somoza dictatorship will be maintained and strengthened."

"By no means was Sanders's trip to Nicaragua his only trek to a Communist country. He also (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420228/bernie-sanderss-soviet-honeymoon-john-fund) visited Fidel Castro (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=912)'s Cuba in the 1980s (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/19/bernie-sanders-profile-democrat-presidential-candidate) and had a friendly meeting with the mayor of Havana."
"When Sanders in 1988 married his wife, Jane, the couple honeymooned (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420228/bernie-sanderss-soviet-honeymoon-john-fund) in Yaroslavl, Russia. In an interview with that city's mayor, Alexander Riabkov, Sanders acknowledged that housing and health care were "significantly better" in the U.S. than in the Soviet Union, but added that "the cost of both services is much, much, higher in the United States."

In November 1989 Sanders addressed (http://keywiki.org/Bernie_Sanders) the national conference of the U.S. Peace Council (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7706), a Communist Party USA (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=7511) front. The event focused (http://www.aim.org/aim-column/should-the-nsa-be-watching-senator-sanders/) on how to "end the Cold War" and "fund human needs." Fellow speakers included such notables as Leslie Cagan (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=629), John Conyers (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1987), and Manning Marable (http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2229)."

Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/08/bernie-sanders-proud-self-proclaimed-democratic-socialist/#G1mOVLfJJeDfxuDt.99


He is the epitome of crazy leftist nuttiness.

[Tahuyaman]

Can Bernie Keep Socialism Alive?

well, someone needs to try, because it keeps faultering everywhere it's tried.

[del]

He is the epitome of crazy leftist nuttiness.

as opposed to a criminal who traded weapons for hostages and gave support to *freedom fighters* who raped and murdered nuns, priest and bishops, among others.

pretty easy call, imo.

[Chris]

He is the epitome of crazy leftist nuttiness.

Disagree on the nuttiness. I think he's a good, honest representative of what the left stands for. I may disagree with his positions on issues, but I wish more on the left (Dems, liberals, progressives) were as honest--too many are Hillarys.

Edit: Ditto the right (Reps, conservatives).

[Tahuyaman]

he's contacted you already?

yeah. I told him to go fuck himself.

[Tahuyaman]

I don't see why he should run from that.


Collaborating with the Soviets and Daniel Ortega? Two murderous regimes? Ok.....

[Tahuyaman]

He is the epitome of crazy leftist nuttiness.

The loony leftist here love the dude. The nuttier he is, the more they love him.

His collaboration with the genocidal Soviets and Sandinistas in the 1980's is an enhancement to his resumé. It's incredible.

[Tahuyaman]

I don't think he has a good chance of winning unless liberals are willing to acknowledge their politics.

What do you mean by liberals willing to "acknowledge their politics"?

[Green Arrow]

The loony leftist here love the dude. The nuttier he is, the more they love him.

His collaboration with the genocidal Soviets and Sandinistas in the 1980's is an enhancement to his resumé. It's incredible.

The Sandinistas were not genocidal. You're thinking of dictators like Pinochet and the Nicaraguan contras that we supported.

[Chris]

What do you mean by liberals willing to "acknowledge their politics"?

They're all pretty much democratic socialists, in the sense Sanders is and says he is, but few acknowledge it.

[Captain Obvious]

They're all pretty much democratic socialists, in the sense Sanders is and says he is, but few acknowledge it.

So is Sanders unexpected popularity due to his socialist tendencies or the fact that he's not billary?

[Tahuyaman]

The Sandinistas were not genocidal. You're thinking of dictators like Pinochet and the Nicaraguan contras that we supported.

Do you know anything about the history of Daniel Ortega?

I didnt think so.

What happened to you? At one time, even though we sometimes disagreed, I thought you at least had a grasp of reality. What happened?

[del]

yeah. I told him to go fuck himself.

did the light hurt your eyes?

[Tahuyaman]

So is Sanders unexpected popularity due to his socialist tendencies or the fact that he's not billary?

I suspect it's more related to not being Hillary Clinton.

[Tahuyaman]

did the light hurt your eyes?

Uh.... OK.....

I had this great crab and shrimp omelette for breakfast this morning. A buddy of mine just opened a new restaurant. It's awesome. I'm hoping he does well. I'll eat there at least three times a week.

[Chris]

So is Sanders unexpected popularity due to his socialist tendencies or the fact that he's not billary?

His popularity may be waxing simply because Hillary's is waning. Biden is moving up too. But I don't think he can win because liberals would have to openly embrace democratic socialism.

[Green Arrow]

Do you know anything about the history of Daniel Ortega?

I didnt think so.

What happened to you? At one time, even though we sometimes disagreed, I thought you at least had a grasp of reality. What happened?

You can insult my intelligence all you like, but until you supply some concrete evidence that Ortega was more murderous than the contras that we supported, you have no case.

[Bob]

Bernie isn't really a socialist. His policies are democratic socialist.

Democrats are socialists.

[Green Arrow]

Democrats are socialists.

No they aren't.

[Bob]

You can insult my intelligence all you like, but until you supply some concrete evidence that Ortega was more murderous than the contras that we supported, you have no case.

The contras were defending themselves. As to who was the more murderous, both sides did a lot of killing. But Ortega was a communist. The left wingers like him for some odd reason.

[Bob]

No they aren't.

Yes they are.

[Bob]

The Sandinistas were not genocidal. You're thinking of dictators like Pinochet and the Nicaraguan contras that we supported.

Like hell he wasn't. The Contras defended their country from communists.

[Dr. Who]

That just proves my point about the deceitful nature of the left. Thank you.
So how do you define deceitful - anyone who doesn't agree with you? It's easy to call people liars, leftists or any other broad fatuous generalization, like that is an actual responsive answer rather than a vapid retort. It's much harder to actually address the specifics of an argument and leave it open to specific criticism.

[Tahuyaman]

Democrats are socialists.left wingers fall for these silly word games.

Democratic socialist? Really? Next they will say that they stand for individual collectivism. Maybe communistic capitalism.

[Tahuyaman]

Like hell he wasn't. The Contras defended their country from communists.

Let them think Daniel Ortega was and is a great man of peace.

[Green Arrow]

Like hell he wasn't. The Contras defended their country from communists.

Yes, those evil communists that replaced a violent dictatorship and actually expanded freedoms in their country. Literacy programs? Communist!

[Bob]

Yes, those evil communists that replaced a violent dictatorship and actually expanded freedoms in their country. Literacy programs? Communist!

The Contras were against the dictator and the communist. It is right the dictator fell but not to be replaced by a new one.

[Tahuyaman]

Some people choose to be ignorant.

[Green Arrow]

Some people choose to be ignorant.

Yet you still haven't supplied any proof. Just personal attacks. Fascinating.

[Tahuyaman]

Yet you still haven't supplied any proof. Just personal attacks. Fascinating.

What happened to the old GA? The one who was reasonable and thoughtful? What horrible event changed you so dramatically?

[Green Arrow]

What happened to the old GA? The one who was reasonable and thoughtful? What horrible event changed you so dramatically?

So you've got nothing, then?

Cool. We're done here.

[Tahuyaman]

Where did he go?

The old Green Arrow would not need to be led to information detailing the vicious brutality Daniel Ortega inflicted upon his people in the 1970's and 80's. He would have acknowledged that without asking to be spoon fed a history lesson.


Daniel Ortega came to power in Nicaragua (http://www.conservapedia.com/Nicaragua) by overthrowing the Somoza dynasty (http://www.conservapedia.com/Somoza_family) and enforcing a Communist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Communist)regime on the country.
After seizing power in Nicaragua, the Sandinista regime instituted dictatorial rule as early as December 1979, and formally announced a State of Emergency in 1982. Under the new "Law for the Maintenance of Order and Public Security" the "Tribunales Populares Anti-Somozistas" allowed for the indefinite holding of suspected counter-revolutionaries without trial. The State of Emergency, however, most notably affected rights and guarantees contained in the "Statute on Rights and Guarantees of Nicaraguans.

Many civil liberties were curtailed or canceled such as the freedom to organize demonstrations, the inviolability of the home, freedom of the press, freedom of speech and, the freedom to strike. All independent news program broadcasts were suspended. In total, twenty-four programs were cancelled. In addition, Sandinista censor Nelba Cecilia Blandón issued a decree ordering all radio stations to hook up every six hours to government radio station, La Voz de La Defensa de La Patria. The rights affected also included certain procedural guarantees in the case of detention including habeas corpus. The State of Emergency was not lifted during the 1984 elections. There were many instances where rallies of opposition parties were physically broken up by Sandinsta youth or pro-Sandinista mobs. Opponents to the State of Emergency argued its intent was to crush resistance to the FSLN. James Wheelock justified the actions of the Directorate by saying "... We are annulling the license of the false prophets and the oligarchs to attack the revolution.”


Jamie Glazov describes human rights under this goverment as follows: "All Nicaraguans had to take part in the Marxist experiment. Thus, in perfect Khmer Rouge style, the Sandinistas inflicted a ruthless forcible relocation of tens of thousands of Indians from their land. Like Stalin, they used state-created famine as a weapon against these "enemies of the people."

The Sandinista army committed myriad atrocities against the Indian population, killing and imprisoning approximately 15,000 innocent people. The crimes included not only mass murders of innocent natives themselves, but a calculated liquidation of their entire leadership – as the Soviet army had perpetrated against the Poles in Katyn in 1943. According to the Nicaraguan Commission of Jurists, the Sandinistas carried out over 8,000 political executions within three years of the revolution. The number of "anti-revolutionary" Nicaraguans who had "disappeared" in Sanadinista hands or had died "trying to escape" were numbered in the thousands. By 1983, the number of political prisoners in the Sandinistas' ruthless tyranny were estimated at 20,000. Torture was institutionalized.

Numerous human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and the United Nations Human Rights Commission, have documented the atrocious record of Sandinista human rights abuses, which stood as the worst in Latin America. Political prisoners in Sandinista prisons, such as in Las Tejas, were consistently beaten, deprived of sleep and tortured with electric shocks. They were routinely denied food and water and kept in dark cubicles that had a surface of less than one square meter, known as chiquitas (little ones). These cubicles were too small to sit up in, were completely dark and had no sanitation and almost no ventilation.”
The Sandinistas sent Soviet helicopter gunships and elite army units to attack the Indians; carried out mass arrests, jailings and torture; burned down 65 Indian communities; inflicted ethnic cleansing on 70,000 Indians; and tried to starve the Indians by cutting off food supplies. The Sandinistas boasted that they were “ready to eliminate the last Miskito Indian to take Sandinism to the Atlantic Coast.”

[Tahuyaman]

Daniel Ortega is a swell fella.

[kilgram]

Where did he go?

The old Green Arrow would not need to be led to information detailing the vicious brutality Daniel Ortega inflicted upon his people in the 1970's and 80's. He would have acknowledged that without asking to be spoon fed a history lesson.


Daniel Ortega came to power in Nicaragua (http://www.conservapedia.com/Nicaragua) by overthrowing the Somoza dynasty (http://www.conservapedia.com/Somoza_family) and enforcing a Communist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Communist)regime on the country.
After seizing power in Nicaragua, the Sandinista regime instituted dictatorial rule as early as December 1979, and formally announced a State of Emergency in 1982. Under the new "Law for the Maintenance of Order and Public Security" the "Tribunales Populares Anti-Somozistas" allowed for the indefinite holding of suspected counter-revolutionaries without trial. The State of Emergency, however, most notably affected rights and guarantees contained in the "Statute on Rights and Guarantees of Nicaraguans.

Many civil liberties were curtailed or canceled such as the freedom to organize demonstrations, the inviolability of the home, freedom of the press, freedom of speech and, the freedom to strike. All independent news program broadcasts were suspended. In total, twenty-four programs were cancelled. In addition, Sandinista censor Nelba Cecilia Blandón issued a decree ordering all radio stations to hook up every six hours to government radio station, La Voz de La Defensa de La Patria. The rights affected also included certain procedural guarantees in the case of detention including habeas corpus. The State of Emergency was not lifted during the 1984 elections. There were many instances where rallies of opposition parties were physically broken up by Sandinsta youth or pro-Sandinista mobs. Opponents to the State of Emergency argued its intent was to crush resistance to the FSLN. James Wheelock justified the actions of the Directorate by saying "... We are annulling the license of the false prophets and the oligarchs to attack the revolution.”


Jamie Glazov describes human rights under this goverment as follows: "All Nicaraguans had to take part in the Marxist experiment. Thus, in perfect Khmer Rouge style, the Sandinistas inflicted a ruthless forcible relocation of tens of thousands of Indians from their land. Like Stalin, they used state-created famine as a weapon against these "enemies of the people."

The Sandinista army committed myriad atrocities against the Indian population, killing and imprisoning approximately 15,000 innocent people. The crimes included not only mass murders of innocent natives themselves, but a calculated liquidation of their entire leadership – as the Soviet army had perpetrated against the Poles in Katyn in 1943. According to the Nicaraguan Commission of Jurists, the Sandinistas carried out over 8,000 political executions within three years of the revolution. The number of "anti-revolutionary" Nicaraguans who had "disappeared" in Sanadinista hands or had died "trying to escape" were numbered in the thousands. By 1983, the number of political prisoners in the Sandinistas' ruthless tyranny were estimated at 20,000. Torture was institutionalized.

Numerous human rights organizations, including Amnesty International and the United Nations Human Rights Commission, have documented the atrocious record of Sandinista human rights abuses, which stood as the worst in Latin America. Political prisoners in Sandinista prisons, such as in Las Tejas, were consistently beaten, deprived of sleep and tortured with electric shocks. They were routinely denied food and water and kept in dark cubicles that had a surface of less than one square meter, known as chiquitas (little ones). These cubicles were too small to sit up in, were completely dark and had no sanitation and almost no ventilation.”
The Sandinistas sent Soviet helicopter gunships and elite army units to attack the Indians; carried out mass arrests, jailings and torture; burned down 65 Indian communities; inflicted ethnic cleansing on 70,000 Indians; and tried to starve the Indians by cutting off food supplies. The Sandinistas boasted that they were “ready to eliminate the last Miskito Indian to take Sandinism to the Atlantic Coast.”
That is absolutely a lie.

And it was the most democratic country of the region.

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[Peter1469]

How so?

[gamewell45]

Can Bernie Keep Socialism Alive? (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/09/bernie-sanders-socialism-eugene-v-debs-213093?o=0) is a long but interesting historical piece on Sanders' great influence Eugene Dobs and an attempt at answering that question. I can only highlight a few paragraphs. I leave out all the ways socialism has influenced US politics, figuring you know all rhat.

I think you mean Eugene V. Debs, who was a great socialist leader in America.

Socialism will always be alive in this country, as long as you have the government providing services to the public. Sanders will no doubt enhance people's knowledge of socialism and hopefully educate the public that it is not the eternal bogeyman that many propose it to be.

[Chris]

I think you mean Eugene V. Debs, who was a great socialist leader in America.

Socialism will always be alive in this country, as long as you have the government providing services to the public. Sanders will no doubt enhance people's knowledge of socialism and hopefully educate the public that it is not the eternal bogeyman that many propose it to be.

You're exactly right, Debs. I'm surprised no one caught that. Thanks for correction.

[Green Arrow]

You're exactly right, Debs. I'm surprised no one caught that. Thanks for correction.

I caught it, but didn't want to seem anal.

[Tahuyaman]

That is absolutely a lie.

And it was the most democratic country of the region.

Отправлено с моего Aquaris E5 через Tapatalk

The documented cases of murder and torture inflicted by Ortega's regime is not a lie.

[gamewell45]

I caught it, but didn't want to seem anal.

You're never anal if it is constructive correction to help facilitate discussion. :)

[Lineman]

A better question is, for how long can Republicans keep their party viable?

[Chris]

A better question is, for how long can Republicans keep their party viable?

As long as the Dems do. They need each other since they stand for nothing but against each other. Which is odd when they're one and the same.