Pope Francis' Critics Miss The Point

[Mark III]

http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/pope-francis-critics-are-missing-his-message-of-pure-love/

"...Pope Francis’ obvious opposition to the death penalty, his charge to care for refugees, his words on capitalism and the economy and his St. Francis-like exhortation to care for our environment are the main source of this criticism from the right.


Charges of being a South American leftist are flying over the airwaves. And so on.


His passionate plea for respect for life, his emphasis on the need for family, on the sacredness of marriage and call for religious freedom are not so much criticized by the left but, for lack of a better word, ignored.


Or there are the accusations of being a hidebound conservative who wants to be seen as an open-minded liberal.


All wrong. Period. No, I will not accept any objection to my observation.


The Holy Father’s thrust is ruled by a special but well-known ideology. Not left-right, not Democratic-Republican, not conservative-liberal. The ideology that guides his words is simple, universal — an ideology meant for the world as a whole.


His ideology is love...."

[Mark III]

The papal message is not political. Our perverted priorities and prejudices try to make it so.

[Mac-7]

Ok.

if the pope was not being political then no political action is called for.

Send him and his Fiat 500 back to italy and good riddence.

[donttread]

The papal message is not political. Our perverted priorities and prejudices try to make it so.

Right, and as such it should not have delivered in or show and influnance over congress

[AeonPax]

`
Regardless of what the conservatives think, The Pope was given permission to speak before congress. That, in itself, shows the amount of deference the US has given to this pope.

[Matty]

How many refugees will he put up at the Vatican?

[spunkloaf]

If people want to politicize the fucking Pope, they will. Just like every other sideways fart in the news that can be misconstrued for a breached abortion.

I'm not meaning to elude to the Pope's visit as either a fart or an abortion, for the record. I think it was wonderful, and everybody here has the capacity to read up on my otherwise usual opinion of religious subjects, particularly of Christian (and especially) Catholic flavors. In lieu of such regards, one might consider this post as one of my most extraordinary moments. :laugh:

There was indeed his expressed sentiments about global warming. Somebody should have informed the Pontiff of the travesty and betrayal his concerns would bring to the right-wing Christian-flavored faiths in the US.

[Chris]

`
Regardless of what the conservatives think, The Pope was given permission to speak before congress. That, in itself, shows the amount of deference the US has given to this pope.

Wasn't that political?

[AeonPax]

Wasn't that political?

`

The Holy See was speaking to politicians as a head of state and as the Catholic leader.

[Mac-7]

`
The Holy See was speaking to politicians as a head of state and as the Catholic leader.



Ok.

so we can safely ignore the pope's personal opinions on the man-made global warming hoax and immigration.

[Subdermal]

The papal message is not political. Our perverted priorities and prejudices try to make it so.

:biglaugh:

Now we know what it takes to be defended by the left, if you're religious: socialist, or Muslim.

[Matty]

Some crazy democrat stole the popes water glass so he could drink from it.



http://megynkelly.org/2015/09/25/wow-pro-abortion-democrat-steals-popes-glass-to-drink-remaining-water-with-wife-then-sprinkles-on-grandkids/#

[Chris]

`

The Holy See was speaking to politicians as a head of state and as the Catholic leader.


Well, exactly, it was political.

I have no problem with it, btw. I don't agree with his economic views, but have no problem with him speaking out publicly or before Congress.

[hanger4]

`

The Holy See was speaking to politicians as a head of state and as the Catholic leader.


The Holy See is the state. The head of that state is the Pope or The Vicar of Christ.

[Green Arrow]

The papal message is not political. Our perverted priorities and prejudices try to make it so.

I agree with that, but both sides are desperately trying to politicize it.

[Green Arrow]

How many refugees will he put up at the Vatican?

None, because he can't just put people up in the Vatican.

[Mac-7]

None, because he can't just put people up in the Vatican.

So the commie pope is all talk but no action.

[Bob]

`
Regardless of what the conservatives think, The Pope was given permission to speak before congress. That, in itself, shows the amount of deference the US has given to this pope.

Where the hell was Obama sitting in the audience? I mean he rushed up the stairs to greet the pope on the airplane. Why snub him at the people's house?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Who cares what the leader of the most well-known mob of child molesters thinks?

What point could he possibly make that anyone would be interested in?

[Bob]

None, because he can't just put people up in the Vatican.

I understand the pope does not stay at the Vatican and has a room in some hotel.

The church can put up a lot of people as wealthy as it is.

[Green Arrow]

I understand the pope does not stay at the Vatican and has a room in some hotel.

The church can put up a lot of people as wealthy as it is.

The church is not wealthy.

[whatukno]

The church is not wealthy.

Really?

Please elaborate.

[Green Arrow]

Really?

Please elaborate.

The "wealth" of the church consists of art and artifacts. None of which can be sold, nor should it be sold.

[Matty]

Property lots of property.

[whatukno]

The "wealth" of the church consists of art and artifacts. None of which can be sold, nor should it be sold.

And all the "tithes" they bring in?

Oh, I forgot, those all go to GAWWWWD!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3DpbQlZMos

[Dangermouse]

The RC church doesn't do "tithes"

[Tahuyaman]

When the Pope gets blatantly political, those who support that message claim he's not being political.

[Green Arrow]

Property lots of property.

Can't sell that, either, and they aren't making money off it.

[Tahuyaman]

The church is not wealthy.

uh...... Wrong.

[whatukno]

Can't sell that, either, and they aren't making money off it.


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/catholic-schools-convents-properties-block-parishes-struggle-debt-article-1.959026

Catholic parishes across the city are posting "For Sale" signs on churches, convents and schools to stave off crippling debts, the Daily News has learned.
Millions of dollars in property has been sold or leased, and millions more are going as parishes cope with population shifts that are leaving pews and collection plates empty.
Rectories, convents and schools have gone on the block, fetching six- and seven-digit returns for their cash-strapped parishes.

[Green Arrow]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/catholic-schools-convents-properties-block-parishes-struggle-debt-article-1.959026

Catholic parishes across the city are posting "For Sale" signs on churches, convents and schools to stave off crippling debts, the Daily News has learned.
Millions of dollars in property has been sold or leased, and millions more are going as parishes cope with population shifts that are leaving pews and collection plates empty.
Rectories, convents and schools have gone on the block, fetching six- and seven-digit returns for their cash-strapped parishes.

Crippling debt?

Kinda blows the whole "Catholic church is so wealthy" myth out of the water. Thanks.

[whatukno]

Crippling debt?

Kinda blows the whole "Catholic church is so wealthy" myth out of the water. Thanks.

Not really, as GOP front runner Donald Trump has done 4 times, being in crippling debt doesn't mean your broke.

[Green Arrow]

Not really, as GOP front runner Donald Trump has done 4 times, being in crippling debt doesn't mean your broke.

Yes, actually, it does. Trump has never personally been bankrupt and mired in crippling debt, his companies have. There's a difference.

[whatukno]

Yes, actually, it does. Trump has never personally been bankrupt and mired in crippling debt, his companies have. There's a difference.

The point I was making with posting the article is that YES they do sell their property.

And no, the Catholic Church isn't broke, just certain parishes are. There's a difference.

[Green Arrow]

The point I was making with posting the article is that YES they do sell their property.

I used "can't" in the sense of "should not."


And no, the Catholic Church isn't broke, just certain parishes are. There's a difference.

Not really. If the Catholic Church was the most wealthy organization in the world, none of their parishes would be broke.

[Captain Obvious]

How many refugees will he put up at the Vatican?

4 I think.

Seriously, a small family is there from what I understand.

[whatukno]

I used "can't" in the sense of "should not."



Not really. If the Catholic Church was the most wealthy organization in the world, none of their parishes would be broke.

It's like franchises, the liability of the corporate company is negated by individual stores being locally managed.

[Captain Obvious]

Democrats and liberals who are now hailing the Pope for his stance on climate change, death penalty, immigration, etc. should all be punched in the balls if they had any for being directly responsible for the slaughter of millions of innocent, unborn children.

[whatukno]

Democrats and liberals who are now hailing the Pope for his stance on climate change, death penalty, immigration, etc. should all be punched in the balls if they had any for being directly responsible for the slaughter of millions of innocent, unborn children.

Children cannot be unborn.

[Captain Obvious]

Children cannot be unborn.

And pregnant women can't be unscrewed.

Thanks for the tip, Socrates.

[Mini Me]

Crippling debt?

Kinda blows the whole "Catholic church is so wealthy" myth out of the water. Thanks.

Could it be that the local parish priests are "skimming" the tithes like the casino bosses do?

Knowing the greed of humans, it would not surprise me!

[Chris]

And all the "tithes" they bring in?

Oh, I forgot, those all go to GAWWWWD!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3DpbQlZMos


The RC church doesn't do "tithes"


Made me laugh.

Whatukno, get a clue.

[Mini Me]

Democrats and liberals who are now hailing the Pope for his stance on climate change, death penalty, immigration, etc. should all be punched in the balls if they had any for being directly responsible for the slaughter of millions of innocent, unborn children.

Got a fetus fetish, Festus?

[Chris]

Got a fetus fetish, Festus?

While I nodded nearly napping...

[Peter1469]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/catholic-schools-convents-properties-block-parishes-struggle-debt-article-1.959026

Catholic parishes across the city are posting "For Sale" signs on churches, convents and schools to stave off crippling debts, the Daily News has learned.
Millions of dollars in property has been sold or leased, and millions more are going as parishes cope with population shifts that are leaving pews and collection plates empty.
Rectories, convents and schools have gone on the block, fetching six- and seven-digit returns for their cash-strapped parishes.

The Vatican doesn't own the property of the local organizations- I am not sure the term to use- parishes? .

But yes, local Catholic Churches have sold property and I think some have closed over lawsuits from the sex scandals.

[Peter1469]

Not really, as GOP front runner Donald Trump has done 4 times, being in crippling debt doesn't mean your broke.

Trump was not a fool. He incorporated each project as a separate legal entity. 4 failed (all in Atlantic City?). All of the others didn't. He never declared personal bankruptcy.

[maineman]

Trump was not a fool. He incorporated each project as a separate legal entity. 4 failed (all in Atlantic City?). All of the others didn't. He never declared personal bankruptcy.
I bet the distinction is really important to his creditors, eh?

[Peter1469]

I bet the distinction is really important to his creditors, eh?

Actually very. Had all of Trump's corporations and his personal wealth been on the table, his creditors would have been happy as clams. :wink:

That is one of the purposes of the corporation.

If you start a business, consider doing it.

[maineman]

Actually very. Had all of Trump's corporations and his personal wealth been on the table, his creditors would have been happy as clams. :wink:

That is one of the purposes of the corporation.

If you start a business, consider doing it.

so the fact that he used American tax law to fuck over innocent investors is not only OK with you, but makes him still presidential timber?

[Peter1469]

so the fact that he used American tax law to fuck over innocent investors is not only OK with you, but makes him still presidential timber?

Bankruptcy law. Not tax law.

Had he not used it he wouldn't be fit to run his own household much less any elected office.

[maineman]

Bankruptcy law. Not tax law.

Had he not used it he wouldn't be fit to run his own household much less any elected office.

and again.. .how do his screwed over creditors feel about that? How should we feel about a fellow who has so blithely screwed over so many creditors?

[Peter1469]

and again.. .how do his screwed over creditors feel about that? How should we feel about a fellow who has so blithely screwed over so many creditors?

His creditors were banks and venture capitalists. It is their business to know risk.

I think most of Trump companies that went bankrupt were in Atlantic City. He was the first to bail. Most of the other big guys followed him.

Nations have bankruptcy codes for a reason. It is a legitimate way to deleverage debt.

[maineman]

His creditors were banks and venture capitalists. It is their business to know risk.

I think most of Trump companies that went bankrupt were in Atlantic City. He was the first to bail. Most of the other big guys followed him.

Nations have bankruptcy codes for a reason. It is a legitimate way to deleverage debt.

and you know the list of his creditors....how, exactly? or are you assuming?

[Safety]

If I had 100 billion dollars, and if my business endeavors left me with 50 billion dollars, I'm still a billionaire, but am I really that good of a businessman?

Just a rhetorical question.

[Peter1469]

and you know the list of his creditors....how, exactly? or are you assuming?

Trump's 4 corporate bankruptcies (http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2011/04/29/fourth-times-a-charm-how-donald-trump-made-bankruptcy-work-for-him/) were on Atlantic City properties. And they were Chapter 11 bankruptcies, which is reorganization, not liquidation. Big difference. Especially for creditors.

The first was Trump Taj Mahal, 1991- Carl Icahn, was the largest creditor who held $400 million in bonds. Trump claims he will make Icahn the Treasury Secretary should he win.

Normal people don't finance Atlantic City casinos. These are all businessmen who knew the risk.


More important, said Venditto, are the repercussions Chapter 11 might have for creditors versus, say, liquidation. “You can have a visceral reaction to the fact that this company has gone through Chapter 11 multiple times, but the bondholders look at it and the alternatives are much, much worse. What is an empty casino sitting on the Atlantic City boardwalk worth? If it’s operating and it’s got cash flow and income, it may not be able to pay back every cent on the dollar, but the creditors are better off in the long run.”

[maineman]

Trump's 4 corporate bankruptcies (http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2011/04/29/fourth-times-a-charm-how-donald-trump-made-bankruptcy-work-for-him/) were on Atlantic City properties. And they were Chapter 11 bankruptcies, which is reorganization, not liquidation. Big difference. Especially for creditors.

The first was Trump Taj Mahal, 1991- Carl Icahn, was the largest creditor who held $400 million in bonds. Trump claims he will make Icahn the Treasury Secretary should he win.

Normal people don't finance Atlantic City casinos. These are all businessmen who knew the risk.and even if Icahn is Secretary of the Treasury, will that make him whole on his loss to Trump?

There are a lot of mutual funds that a lot of investors own that own a variety of properties such as Trump's stuff in Atlantic City. There are a lot of mom and pop investors who owned shares of those mutual funds. Is Trump gonna give them all big time government jobs when he's elected? Like Under-Secretary of the Guys who Pick Up Trash on the Boardwalk? I'll bet they'll ALL vote for him for THAT kind of perk!

[Peter1469]

and even if Icahn is Secretary of the Treasury, will that make him whole on his loss to Trump?

There are a lot of mutual funds that a lot of investors own that own a variety of properties such as Trump's stuff in Atlantic City. There are a lot of mom and pop investors who owned shares of those mutual funds. Is Trump gonna give them all big time government jobs when he's elected? Like Under-Secretary of the Guys who Pick Up Trash on the Boardwalk? I'll bet they'll ALL vote for him for THAT kind of perk!

Atlantic City as a casino city was doomed regardless of what Trump did. He was one of the first to realize it and cut his losses.

[maineman]

Atlantic City as a casino city was doomed regardless of what Trump did. He was one of the first to realize it and cut his losses.

and, if it were only "his" losses, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

[Peter1469]

and, if it were only "his" losses, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?

Should he have not used the bankruptcy code as it was intended to be used?

Why?

[Mac-7]

and even if Icahn is Secretary of the Treasury, will that make him whole on his loss to Trump?



You make it sound like Icahn had his life savings in Trump casinos and now hes the doorman at a walmart store living off SS.

wealthy investors like him know the risks and accept that not all risks pay off.

[AeonPax]

Ok. so we can safely ignore the pope's personal opinions on the man-made global warming hoax and immigration.
`
Sure. In fact you don't have to believe anything the pope says....or anyone else for that matter.

[AeonPax]

Well, exactly, it was political. I have no problem with it, btw. I don't agree with his economic views, but have no problem with him speaking out publicly or before Congress.
`
His message was not political...that's the main thing.

[Common]

`
His message was not political...that's the main thing.

Aeon I was raised a catholic, ive seen a few popes. Everything about this one is subtley political. He very much has political stances but he has too.

In his defense the catholic churchs participation is at an all time low. The churchs largest group of faithful are Hispanics across the globe. Hence his constant defense of immigration and illegal immigration here. He and I believe hes been mandated to try to turn that around. His predecessor was dry and didnt have the personality to make people want to come back to the fold, thats why he was replaced while still alive.

I understand what Pope Francis is confronted with, there are not enough upcoming priests. Churchs are closing and there are MANY that do not get enough donations to keep them operating without infusions from the church.

He has to take on issues and bring them forth that are political in nature.

[donttread]

`
Regardless of what the conservatives think, The Pope was given permission to speak before congress. That, in itself, shows the amount of deference the US has given to this pope.

Not appropriate for a nation with a strong dedication to separation of church and state.

[donttread]

How many refugees will he put up at the Vatican?

Excellent question. Or how many paintings will he sell to feed the hungry. I certainly prefer his talk and walk to that of other Pope's , but he could go further

[Peter1469]

I see no problem with the Pope speaking in Congress. It was good TV, and Congress isn't going to alter its course- (not that that is a good thing).

It is a non-issue.

[AeonPax]

Not appropriate for a nation with a strong dedication to separation of church and state.
`
It's a first - Pope Francis First Religious Leader to be Invited to Address Joint Session of Congress (http://www.allgov.com/news/unusual-news/pope-francis-first-religious-leader-to-be-invited-to-address-joint-session-of-congress-150630?news=856843)

[donttread]

I see no problem with the Pope speaking in Congress. It was good TV, and Congress isn't going to alter its course- (not that that is a good thing).

It is a non-issue.

The most powerful religious leader in the world speaking to the governing body of a nation dedicated to a separation of church and state about being even more open to the illegal immigration of people from south of the border who are predominately Catholic is many things and you may well wish to defend it but please don't call it a non issue. It's just helping congress sell their non action on illegal immigration

[Peter1469]

The most powerful religious leader in the world speaking to the governing body of a nation dedicated to a separation of church and state about being even more open to the illegal immigration of people from south of the border who are predominately Catholic is many things and you may well wish to defend it but please don't call it a non issue. It's just helping congress sell their non action on illegal immigration

Yes. A non-issue. Our Congress is so corrupt, they are lucky God didn't blow the place up as the Pope left.... :wink:

If your think those clowns are going to be swayed by anything the Pope said, you are daft. :smiley:

[donttread]

Yes. A non-issue. Our Congress is so corrupt, they are lucky God didn't blow the place up as the Pope left.... :wink:

If your think those clowns are going to be swayed by anything the Pope said, you are daft. :smiley:

More like using his words to justify their own inaction. Politics is rarely direct and straight on Peter

[Peter1469]

More like using his words to justify their own inaction. Politics is rarely direct and straight on Peter

Using his words to do what they were doing already means nothing.

[donttread]

Using his words to do what they were doing already means nothing.

The whole implies a relationship between the government and the Catholic church that is different from and more influencial than the government's relationship with other religions

[Peter1469]

The whole implies a relationship between the government and the Catholic church that is different from and more influencial than the government's relationship with other religions

There is no relationship between the US government and the Church.

Zero.

There never will be.

[Subdermal]

12880

[donttread]

There is no relationship between the US government and the Church.

Zero.

There never will be.

Then why does the Pope speak to congress and countless politicians push so called "christian values"

[Green Arrow]

Then why does the Pope speak to congress and countless politicians push so called "christian values"

Because:

A: The Pope is a world leader and world leaders fairly regularly speak before Congress.
B: People promote legislation that aligns with their values. That means Christians will pass legislation that promotes Christian values, Jews for Jewish values, Muslims for Muslim values, atheists for atheist values.

[rembrant]

http://nypost.com/2015/09/25/pope-francis-critics-are-missing-his-message-of-pure-love/

"...Pope Francis’ obvious opposition to the death penalty, his charge to care for refugees, his words on capitalism and the economy and his St. Francis-like exhortation to care for our environment are the main source of this criticism from the right.


Charges of being a South American leftist are flying over the airwaves. And so on.


His passionate plea for respect for life, his emphasis on the need for family, on the sacredness of marriage and call for religious freedom are not so much criticized by the left but, for lack of a better word, ignored.


Or there are the accusations of being a hidebound conservative who wants to be seen as an open-minded liberal.


All wrong. Period. No, I will not accept any objection to my observation.


The Holy Father’s thrust is ruled by a special but well-known ideology. Not left-right, not Democratic-Republican, not conservative-liberal. The ideology that guides his words is simple, universal — an ideology meant for the world as a whole.


His ideology is love...."
Pretty much. He ain't pandering. He ain't milking Koch money. The guy is legit.. whether or not you like the whole package.

[Peter1469]

Then why does the Pope speak to congress and countless politicians push so called "christian values"

Take a deep breath and come back to reality.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter1469 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1271256#post1271256)
There is no relationship between the US government and the Church.

Zero.

There never will be.

[donttread]

Because:

A: The Pope is a world leader and world leaders fairly regularly speak before Congress.
B: People promote legislation that aligns with their values. That means Christians will pass legislation that promotes Christian values, Jews for Jewish values, Muslims for Muslim values, atheists for atheist values.

So when can the pagans speak before congress?

[Peter1469]

So when can the pagans speak before congress?

I imagine if one becomes a world-wide respected figure he will be speaking in front of Congress. And just as the pope was- for the cameras. Congress will continue as it.

[Safety]

So when can the pagans speak before congress?

In 2009...

President Obama Addresses Joint Session of Congress

Tuesday, Feburary 24, 2009

[Mister D]

So when can the pagans speak before congress?

When they matter.

[donttread]

When they matter.


Why this pope? Why now?

[Mister D]

Why this pope? Why now?

Clearly at the behest of Halliburton and Blackwater.

[Mister D]

Good grief...a popular Pope gets invited to speak and it just has to be a conspiracy. Yeah...:rollseyes:

[Mark III]

This article, by the U.S. Bishop's Conference, indicates why the Pope's message on social issues is NOT political. rather, it is long standing catholic teaching.

Seven Themes Of Catholic Social Teaching (http://usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/seven-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching.cfm)

[donttread]

Good grief...a popular Pope gets invited to speak and it just has to be a conspiracy. Yeah...:rollseyes:

Please show me where I referred to this as a conspiracy.

[Subdermal]

So when can the pagans speak before congress?

The Pagans speak before Congress every day.

[Green Arrow]

So when can the pagans speak before congress?

They already have.

[donttread]

This article, by the U.S. Bishop's Conference, indicates why the Pope's message on social issues is NOT political. rather, it is long standing catholic teaching.

Seven Themes Of Catholic Social Teaching (http://usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/seven-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching.cfm)



Why on earth would someone deliver a "non-political message" to a political body? Clear issues like " let more Catholics cross the border illegally and take them in" are very much political.
Don't get me wrong as Pope's go I like this guy who seems to have the courage of his own convictions and to be trying to bring the Catholic church, if not into this century , at least into the last. But , leaders don't speak to political bodies without a political message

[Mister D]

Why on earth would someone deliver a "non-political message" to a political body? Clear issues like " let more Catholics cross the border illegally and take them in" are very much political.
Don't get me wrong as Pope's go I like this guy who seems to have the courage of his own convictions and to be trying to bring the Catholic church, if not into this century , at least into the last. But , leaders don't speak to political bodies without a political message

Actually, the Pope's teachings are hundreds of years old.

[Mister D]

Please show me where I referred to this as a conspiracy.

So then why this Pope? Why now? Surely you have some ideas.

[donttread]

So then why this Pope? Why now? Surely you have some ideas.

Because his views on immigration justify the donkephants inaction in that area

[Mister D]

Because his views on immigration justify the donkephants inaction in that area

So it's a conspiracy then? He was invited because the bogeyman wants to use the Pope to underscore his inaction on immigration?

[donttread]

This article, by the U.S. Bishop's Conference, indicates why the Pope's message on social issues is NOT political. rather, it is long standing catholic teaching.

Seven Themes Of Catholic Social Teaching (http://usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catholic-social-teaching/seven-themes-of-catholic-social-teaching.cfm)





The Catholics have always been political

[Mac-7]

Because his views on immigration justify the donkephants inaction in that area

The donkephant is real.

So are the always-complaining-but-never-helping libertarian fencesitters.

[Chris]

The donkephant is real.

So are the always-complaining-but-never-helping libertarian fencesitters.

Thanks for the flamebait so I can respond: The only ones sitting the fence are you all establishment types. Libertarians, Tea Partiers, Independents, etc etc etc are AGAINST you establishment types. Being AGAINST is not fence sitting.

[donttread]

Thanks for the flamebait so I can respond: The only ones sitting the fence are you all establishment types. Libertarians, Tea Partiers, Independents, etc etc etc are AGAINST you establishment types. Being AGAINST is not fence sitting.

They have altered the structure of his brain so that all he can see once inside a voting booth is "A" or "B"