You Built That, Right?

[IMPress Polly]

I've heard enough of this "We DID build it!" line, so let me put my take that on in no uncertain terms. Though many (capitalists) have taken offense to his words, the president has put such matters in a very polite and diplomatic way in referring to workers as "business creators". As someone familiar with more stridently left wing viewpoints, let me tell you there are far less polite ways of pointing out the essence of what the president is aiming to get at there. For example, I used to promote the Revolutionary Communist Party online and in-person for a few years (mid-2007 to mid-2010). When I was in that whole orbit, one of the things we'd promote was the chairman's Revolution Talk from 2003. Contained therein was HIS take on this whole question of "self-made" businesspeople:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xv7ZPvVbxs


Now sometimes you see these fools get up, you know like these ranchers and that kinda shit, and, y'know, imagine Dubya down there on his ranch, y'know, and they -- they say things like "I'm a self-made man! Nobody gave me anything! I did it all myself! I'm a self-made man!" Yeah, you're a self-made man: All the clothes you're wearing, everything you're using was made by other people, the food you eat was picked by other people, the machinery you're driving around, the rifle you own, was made by other people...everything you have and use was made by other people! And right now you're exploiting Mexican immigrants on your ranch and you're sitting on land that was stolen from the native peoples in the first place, but you're a self-made man!

That's the less polite and more correct version, IMO. I may not totally agree with the party more generally anymore, but that continues to be a point that I uphold.

[Chris]

Amazing how a socialist can deconstruct a common expression and from it and a made-up straw man rancher construct such awful propaganda.

[Goldie Locks]

Amazing how a socialist can deconstruct a common expression and from it and a made-up straw man rancher construct such awful propaganda.

Awful is right!!!!!

[patrickt]

I've always laughed at pompous people making pronouncements that "behind every great man stands a woman." That's true. And, behind every mass murderer, behind every Jeffrey Dahlmer, behind every President Obama, behind every communist dictator stands, you got it, a woman.

Saying that Ray Croc didn't create McDonalds is a crock. My father had a small motel that supported our family. Saying he and my mother didn't do that is a lie promoted by failures.

Nobody hates a success more than a failure who is desperate for excuses for not succeeding. A deadbeat asked me for $100 and I refused to give it do him. He threw a fit and said I helped others but not him. I said, "You got a good education and the only reason you want me to give you money is you've never wanted to work." He stuck his nose in the air, much like our President, and said, "I have worked by whole life for the revolution," again, much like our President. Fine, the fucking revolution can support him. I wouldn't want anyone to think he should actually work.

President Obama is a communist and thinks the government does everything. That is what he was expressing and I'm sure all the other communists, such as ImpressPolly, agree with him. Sadly, they will never build anything. At their peak, they can only destroy.

[Cigar]

I was a nice try by the Republicans ... but it failed and was proven a lie.

All you need to do is watch the Live Video ... it's widely available.

[URF8]

There is no longer any common ground between left and right. No shared views. History tells us that this will lead to the end of the established order. I don't know what form the new order will take, or even if the state underlying the polity will remain whole. All I can say is that we are at the end of an age.

[Mainecoons]

Yes we are. It is time to give the lefties their own country to wreck and the rest of us our own to restore. There can be no further compromise with these people, you may as well compromise with the Muslims.

[IMPress Polly]

patrickT wrote:
Saying that Ray Croc didn't create McDonalds is a crock. My father had a small motel that supported our family. Saying he and my mother didn't do that is a lie promoted by failures.

Positing stuff like this without substantiation of facts or logic may get you a lot of Thanks on right-leaning web forums like this, but the fact is that, even in your personal example, I'm pretty sure that the main and essential contribution that said capitalists made was intellectual. I'm pretty sure other people built the hotel itself and the roads leading to and from, provide the electricity and water and other utilities (unless your parents are using a lightning rod that they constructed or something), and perhaps most of the work therein and that workers likewise compose(d) most of the customer base. Going even further, I would likewise speculate that founding such an enterprise tends to require a certain level of education, which still other workers (teachers, like yours truly) provided. There is probably precious little that was done without some form of help, whether direct or indirect.

I can understand one wanting to see their parents in a sort of superhuman light wherein everything they have is exclusively of their making, but that's not reality. Everyone who has gotten anywhere in life had help and probably quite a lot.

I'm just getting very tired of this arrogant campaign that Mr. Romney -- a cradle-to-grave kazillionaire aristocrat who knows and cares nothing about working people -- is leading, going around promoting this elitist worldview where capitalists are the basic social force of this country who need more tax breaks (even though half of them don't even pay my tax rate), where welfare mothers are the exploiting parasites, and so on and so on and so on. It's just very annoying and demeaning. And I very much believe that's the whole point. Capitalists provide the Romney camp with the vast majority of its money. He's not even trying to appeal to ordinary working people in general. He's just a pampered, privileged, stuck up snob whom I can't relate to. Neither can I relate to you calling me a "deadbeat" and a "failure" for having a collectivist viewpoint. But you weren't trying to be relatable to me. You were just trying to win the applause of the rightist majority here. (Which you predictably got with the personal anecdote.)


I've always laughed at pompous people making pronouncements that "behind every great man stands a woman." That's true. And, behind every mass murderer, behind every Jeffrey Dahlmer, behind every President Obama, behind every communist dictator stands, you got it, a woman.

Nothing sexist there. :rollseyes:

[patrickt]

Yes we are. It is time to give the lefties their own country to wreck and the rest of us our own to restore. There can be no further compromise with these people, you may as well compromise with the Muslims.

They have Cuba, California, France, the USSR, Great Britain. No matter how many countries they get it won't sink in. The failures are never their fault or the fault of their faith.

[patrickt]

ImpressPolly: "I'm just getting very tired of this arrogant campaign that Mr. Romney -...."

Incredible. A man who has done nothing except learn to be a Congressman is the most arrogant man in politics and you'll vote for him. A man who gets into first-tier colleges and no one know how and gets a Nobel Peace prize and no one knows how and he's running a Smear and Fear Campaign that leftists cheer. Your arguments are specious and ignorant and typical of people who do nothing except whine. Yes, my father hired a contractor to build the hotel and paid him. He also hired people to clean the rooms that he and my mother and I didn't clean. And, he paid a lot of taxes but not nearly as much as the socialists have us paying now.

Stuff it, Polly. I am just getting very tired of left-wing self-styled elitist who can't do anything alone and don't want anyone else allowed to do anything, period.

[URF8]

Yes we are. It is time to give the lefties their own country to wreck and the rest of us our own to restore. There can be no further compromise with these people, you may as well compromise with the Muslims.

One can reason with Muslims. There is no reasoning with leftists because of their magical thinking and their belief that the ends justify the means. There can be peace with Muslims. There can be no peace with leftists.

[Chris]

Positing stuff like this without substantiation of facts or logic....

Which is exactly what you did posting a socialist who made up a straw man rancher to attack.

[Goldie Locks]

Positing stuff like this without substantiation of facts or logic may get you a lot of Thanks on right-leaning web forums like this, but the fact is that, even in your personal example, I'm pretty sure that the main and essential contribution that said capitalists made was intellectual. I'm pretty sure other people built the hotel itself and the roads leading to and from, provide the electricity and water and other utilities (unless your parents are using a lightning rod that they constructed or something), and perhaps most of the work therein and that workers likewise compose(d) most of the customer base. Going even further, I would likewise speculate that founding such an enterprise tends to require a certain level of education, which still other workers (teachers, like yours truly) provided. There is probably precious little that was done without some form of help, whether direct or indirect.

I can understand one wanting to see their parents in a sort of superhuman light wherein everything they have is exclusively of their making, but that's not reality. Everyone who has gotten anywhere in life had help and probably quite a lot.

I'm just getting very tired of this arrogant campaign that Mr. Romney -- a cradle-to-grave kazillionaire aristocrat who knows and cares nothing about working people -- is leading, going around promoting this elitist worldview where capitalists are the basic social force of this country who need more tax breaks (even though half of them don't even pay my tax rate), where welfare mothers are the exploiting parasites, and so on and so on and so on. It's just very annoying and demeaning. And I very much believe that's the whole point. Capitalists provide the Romney camp with the vast majority of its money. He's not even trying to appeal to ordinary working people in general. He's just a pampered, privileged, stuck up snob whom I can't relate to. Neither can I relate to you calling me a "deadbeat" and a "failure" for having a collectivist viewpoint. But you weren't trying to be relatable to me. You were just trying to win the applause of the rightist majority here. (Which you predictably got with the personal anecdote.)



Nothing sexist there. :rollseyes:


Sorry, if you're a collectivist you are a deadbeat and a loser, because that's what collectivism gets you.

[Peter1469]

Sorry, if you're a collectivist you are a deadbeat and a loser, because that's what collectivism gets you.

Unless you consider a small group of collectivists who share common goals and don't slack off. Several years ago on another board we had a member who was part of a collective in Alaska. They seemed to get by just fine and were happy. But they didn't let slackers stick around.

[IMPress Polly]

patrickt wrote:
Yes, my father hired a contractor to build the hotel and paid him. He also hired people to clean the rooms that he and my mother and I didn't clean.

Then you've conceded the validity of my essential point: that such things cannot be done alone, but rather require working people, whom you opt to give zero credit for their contributions. I don't know why you're continuing to argue.

(If you're offended by my using your personal anecdote to validate my argument, I apologize. Just remember that you're the one who brought it up.)

ON MITT ROMNEY:

Since most of my opponents on this message board support Mitt Romney's presidential campaign, I would cite Mr. Romney's history as an excellent illustration of the point that wealth is generally acquired not by "hard work" or whatever, but simply by being privileged. Mr. Romney was simply born into a great deal of wealth. The rest he acquired by some combination of laying off American workers (often by outsourcing their jobs), bankrupting other companies, and taking advantage of offshore tax shelters and loopholes in the tax code. To briefly recap on that, Mr. Romney's sources of wealth acquisition and retention are 1) inheritance, 2) exploitation, and 3) cheating. Where is the "hard work" that supposedly is the source of all wealth there? Where even is the product that results from what Mr. Romney has done? You see, in reality, most wealth is acquired not by hard and productive work, but by stepping on and cheating others and Mr. Romney's fortune is the perfect example of that. He, like capitalists generally, is no more hard working or "driven" than the unemployed worker on welfare. The sole substantive difference is his level of wealth. That's called privilege. Once we understand that reality, that people are equals, we can start to see the legitimacy of declaring formal economic rights: rights to things like food and yes to jobs, to housing, to health care, and so on; the basics of life.


Chris wrote:
Which is exactly what you did posting a socialist who made up a straw man rancher to attack.

$10,000 bet? :wink:

I simply called out the failure to substantiate the claim that businesses are created unilaterally, as in without the help of others. That's not a "straw man", but the entire intent of this thread.

[GrumpyDog]

One can reason with Muslims. There is no reasoning with leftists because of their magical thinking and their belief that the ends justify the means. There can be peace with Muslims. There can be no peace with leftists.


It was just a matter of time before US far rightwing fanatics realized just how much they have in common with their fanatic Muslim underwear bomber brothers.

Magical thinking and end justifies means is the heart of Corporate Capitalism. A distorted version of Capitalism which the Leftist is in opposition to. Cannot sell greed and unneccessary materialism without all that hype the Corporations peddle in their commercials about a certain specific vision of the "American Dream".

[Peter1469]

It was just a matter of time before US far rightwing fanatics realized just how much they have in common with their fanatic Muslim underwear bomber brothers.

Magical thinking and end justifies means is the heart of Corporate Capitalism. A distorted version of Capitalism which the Leftist is in opposition to. Cannot sell greed and unneccessary materialism without all that hype the Corporations peddle in their commercials about a certain specific vision of the "American Dream".


It was just a matter of time before US far rightwing fanatics realized just how much they have in common with their fanatic Muslim underwear bomber brothers.

Really? Surely you could provide us links to Christians using suicide bombing as a tactic in a war against the world.... :shocked:

[patrickt]

It was just a matter of time before US far rightwing fanatics realized just how much they have in common with their fanatic Muslim underwear bomber brothers.

Magical thinking and end justifies means is the heart of Corporate Capitalism. A distorted version of Capitalism which the Leftist is in opposition to. Cannot sell greed and unneccessary materialism without all that hype the Corporations peddle in their commercials about a certain specific vision of the "American Dream".

I think you're confused...well, no, that's obvious...but the Muslim bombers and the OWS people have far more in common. Actually, President Obama's dear friend Bill Ayers has more in common with Muslim bombers than do capitalist.

But, for magical thinking you have made the case. And for greed, consider the Obama Administration.

[GrumpyDog]

Really? Surely you could provide us links to Christians using suicide bombing as a tactic in a war against the world.... :shocked:

You are right, Christians have a history of decapitating themselves (and others) by various instruments of war, and torturing themselves with all kinds of imaginative gadgets. Bombing did not become the more prefered method of mass human destruction until the cannon replaced the trebuchet, catapult, and boiling oil.

It is a total war with Christians, as opposed to the individual "jihad" of the Muslim. Which is why Nagasaki and Hiroshima were vaporized.`

So I stand corrected. US Far Rightwing Fanatics will never be able to find common ground with Muslim underwear bombers, as far as tactics are concerned, until such time as the Muslims get themselves armed with Nuclear missiles. THEN, they might reach a mutually assured agreement of self destruction.

[roadmaster]

You are right, Christians have a history of decapitating themselves (and others) by various instruments of war, and torturing themselves with all kinds of imaginative gadgets. Bombing did not become the more prefered method of mass human destruction until the cannon replaced the trebuchet, catapult, and boiling oil.

It is a total war with Christians, as opposed to the individual "jihad" of the Muslim. Which is why Nagasaki and Hiroshima were vaporized.`

So I stand corrected. US Far Rightwing Fanatics will never be able to find common ground with Muslim underwear bombers, as far as tactics are concerned, until such time as the Muslims get themselves armed with Nuclear missiles. THEN, they might reach a mutually assured agreement of self destruction.

Wow all these were Christians?

[Carygrant]

Really? Surely you could provide us links to Christians using suicide bombing as a tactic in a war against the world.... :shocked:


Isn't it all about mind set ? I genuinely regard the more obsessed right wing element here as extremist Terrorists .
It's just a matter of time before they start playing Vigilantes and break out the guns .

[Peter1469]

Isn't it all about mind set ? I genuinely regard the more obsessed right wing element here as extremist Terrorists .
It's just a matter of time before they start playing Vigilantes and break out the guns .

You are likely going to be waiting a long time for that! :laugh:

[Peter1469]

I heard an interview on the radio yesterday that was interesting. It pointed out that Islam is at the point in its timeline where Christianity had its 30 years war- between the Catholics and the new Protestants. This was a serious war: population was reduced between 25-40%!

Sunnis and Shia : it is time to rumble!

[IMPress Polly]

GrumpyDog wrote:
It was just a matter of time before US far rightwing fanatics realized just how much they have in common with their fanatic Muslim underwear bomber brothers.


patrickt wrote:
I think you're confused...well, no, that's obvious...but the Muslim bombers and the OWS people have far more in common. Actually, President Obama's dear friend Bill Ayers has more in common with Muslim bombers than do capitalist.

Both:

Comparing one's political opponents to jihadists we are (rightly or wrongly; wrongly, I believe) at war with without substantiation does not represent a constructive form and level of debate. Few people on any political tip can be justly described as verging on terrorist. And there are some on every political tip (save for centrism). Such ridiculous comparisons are aimed simply at offending and alienating the other side, which leads to nothing but empty posturing and grandstanding toward a pointless aim of "winning" a debate. One should instead pursue political dialogue as a learning opportunity, IMO.

[GrumpyDog]

Let us not insult our fellow conservative Americans by suggesting they believe one person builds something absolutely independent of all else in the world. That is not what they are upset about IMO.

More probably, they noticed Obamas voice change, to one of condescending tone. I can imagine, at that moment, if I were someone who is an organizer, (a leader if you will), being insulted by the presumption that anything that is done MUST be done by collective effort. As much as I am a Democrat leaning leftist, THAT notion is proved wrong by history itself.

So Mr Obama really owes something of an apology to the pioneers, both the earliest ones who discovered another world existed, and to all the pioneers up to the present age, from whose individual perserverance, inspiration, and genius, much of the "infrastructure" we now enjoy, was envisioned, and invented.. Other people may have helped them along the way, but, we the people, owe them our gratitude for having a vision, and should not belittle their effort with a statement which says "not possible by collective standards".

[Chris]

Let us not insult our fellow conservative Americans by suggesting they believe one person builds something absolutely independent of all else in the world. That is not what they are upset about IMO.

More probably, they noticed Obamas voice change, to one of condescending tone. I can imagine, at that moment, if I were someone who is an organizer, (a leader if you will), being insulted by the presumption that anything that is done MUST be done by collective effort. As much as I am a Democrat leaning leftist, THAT notion is proved wrong by history itself.

So Mr Obama really owes something of an apology to the pioneers, both the earliest ones who discovered another world existed, and to all the pioneers up to the present age, from whose individual perserverance, inspiration, and genius, much of the "infrastructure" we now enjoy, was envisioned, and invented.. Other people may have helped them along the way, but, we the people, owe them our gratitude for having a vision, and should not belittle their effort with a statement which says "not possible by collective standards".

No, not close. The irritation is I think two part. One, the presumption on Obama's part--and apparently that of many liberals--that conservatives think cooperation is not a part of the free market, of life. Two, the further presumption on Obama's and liberals' parts that everything depends not so much on the civic order of society but the political order of government. In general, irritation with the presumptions underlying socialism.

[Peter1469]

That is the point, Chris hit it.

What Obama is talking about is government providing for us. What Romney is talking about is society (not government) working together to provide.

[Cigar]

Fact: no one on this forum can get from point A to point B without government ... that's a Fact!

[Peter1469]

Fact: no one on this forum can get from point A to point B without government ... that's a Fact!

That is simply not true.

But very few people advocate for zero government. The question is how much power should government have? I like the model given to us by the Founders- a federal government with limited and enumerated powers.

[Cigar]

That is simply not true.

But very few people advocate for zero government. The question is how much power should government have? I like the model given to us by the Founders- a federal government with limited and enumerated powers.


Ok let's test your answer, what you are saying is, you can leave your home, get in your car and do whatever you once from that point on ... until you get to your destination ... is that correct?

BTW; does the home you live in conform to any Government standards, or do you live in a outhouse?
When you take a shit ... does it just go in a hole in the grown at your home?
Type by candlelight?

... need I go on?

[Mister D]

Isn't it all about mind set ? I genuinely regard the more obsessed right wing element here as extremist Terrorists .
It's just a matter of time before they start playing Vigilantes and break out the guns .

No, it's all about using suicide bombers as a tactic. lol

[Mister D]

You are right, Christians have a history of decapitating themselves (and others) by various instruments of war, and torturing themselves with all kinds of imaginative gadgets. Bombing did not become the more prefered method of mass human destruction until the cannon replaced the trebuchet, catapult, and boiling oil.

It is a total war with Christians, as opposed to the individual "jihad" of the Muslim. Which is why Nagasaki and Hiroshima were vaporized.`

So I stand corrected. US Far Rightwing Fanatics will never be able to find common ground with Muslim underwear bombers, as far as tactics are concerned, until such time as the Muslims get themselves armed with Nuclear missiles. THEN, they might reach a mutually assured agreement of self destruction.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima had nothing to do with Christianity. Nor does total war.

[patrickt]

Grumpydog: "So I stand corrected. US Far Rightwing Fanatics will never be able to find common ground with Muslim underwear bombers, as far as tactics are concerned, until such time as the Muslims get themselves armed with Nuclear missiles. THEN, they might reach a mutually assured agreement of self destruction."

But, US Far Left Wing Fanatics have already found common ground with Muslim underwear bombers. Congratulations, Grumpydog, but I hope you and your allies self-destruct while killing as few other people was possible.

[Peter1469]

Ok let's test your answer, what you are saying is, you can leave your home, get in your car and do whatever you once from that point on ... until you get to your destination ... is that correct?

BTW; does the home you live in conform to any Government standards, or do you live in a outhouse?
When you take a shit ... does it just go in a hole in the grown at your home?
Type by candlelight?

... need I go on?

You seem to be unaware of the concept of federalism.

The federal government ought to have no say over traffic laws. But the state and local governments certainly should.

[patrickt]

You seem to be unaware of the concept of federalism.

The federal government ought to have no say over traffic laws. But the state and local governments certainly should.

No, Peter, but for Cigar all government is Federal government. He believes the same as President Obama on everything.

[IMPress Polly]

GrumpyDog wrote:
More probably, they noticed Obamas voice change, to one of condescending tone. I can imagine, at that moment, if I were someone who is an organizer, (a leader if you will), being insulted by the presumption that anything that is done MUST be done by collective effort. As much as I am a Democrat leaning leftist, THAT notion is proved wrong by history itself.

"History shows this", "history proves that"...I hear those types of lines all the time. They're cop-outs. That's not substantiation. I provided a real argument and even used an example (someone else's) to illustrate my point. All you've provided as a counter is an assertion. In fact, bottom line, that's all anyone here has so far provided as a counter to my argument in the OP.

[GrumpyDog]

Grumpydog: "So I stand corrected. US Far Rightwing Fanatics will never be able to find common ground with Muslim underwear bombers, as far as tactics are concerned, until such time as the Muslims get themselves armed with Nuclear missiles. THEN, they might reach a mutually assured agreement of self destruction."



But, US Far Left Wing Fanatics have already found common ground with Muslim underwear bombers. Congratulations, Grumpydog, but I hope you and your allies self-destruct while killing as few other people was possible.

The only common ground that could exist between leftwing eccentrics and underwear bombers, is wearing underwear, and with the exception of Congressman Wiener, no leftist would ever consider placing a bomb in such a location.

[GrumpyDog]

"History shows this", "history proves that"...I hear those types of lines all the time. They're cop-outs. That's not substantiation. I provided a real argument and even used an example (someone else's) to illustrate my point. All you've provided as a counter is an assertion. In fact, bottom line, that's all anyone here has so far provided as a counter to my argument in the OP.

I am impressed, Polly, with your tenacity. If I were not such a lazy, surfboard riding dog, I could list some actual examples from history which might help substantiate my perspective. However, my intention was to understand a little better, what exactly set off my conservative fellow Americans such that they fixated on the "you didn't build that" phrase, even after hearing the entire speech.

And so far, the responses seem to verify the perception that President Obama, as well intentioned as he may have meant to be, came off sounding a little condescending. That provoked the reaction of conservatives ,that Obama has made yet another "presumption" about conservatives, that they are "anti cooperative". This is a mistake, one which I have also made, which is unfair. Being a progressive myself, fairness is a core element of the philosophy, thus I was, and am, attempting to understand the opposition, and trying to be as objective as a dog can be.

[Deadwood]

Only a deluded moron would buy into that hyperbolic bullshit. It doesn't even pass economics 101.
The truth is this: I put my life savings on the line to start a computer resale business. I went without income for four months, living on savings, using my credit cards to the max to buy the goods to sell to make a profit.
There was never any chaos or uncertainty. There was an identifiable need which we filled. As we made money, we re-invested it in new employees to grow and meet more of an identifiable need.
Then we found more needs and hired a software programmer to provide custom solutions.
Not one dime came from government.
We paid every dime in taxes to pay for the infrastructure and we even built some of that infrastructure ourselves.
We paid the best wages and commissions going, not because we're communist but because we wanted the best people.
The small minded, needy, lazy, lick spittle who buy into "You didn't build that" bullshit are the first to go running for a government hand out and the first to bitch that it's not enough.

[Agravan]

But they'll come back with the usual "you didn't build the building you're in", or "you didn't build the road in front of it". or "you didn't build the power plant that supplies electricity", or other such nonsense. never mind the fact that all those items are out there but they were not built by "the government". They were built by locally owned business contractors that hired local labor (taxpayers) to build those facilities. If you didn't build that business, why did it not exist before you brought it into being?
According to leftists, businesses spring up all over the place and greedy people like you just walk in and claim them. I'm still waiting for a business to spring up near me so that I can claim it too. :)

[Calypso Jones]

My husband and i built THAT in spite of the gov't erecting roadblocks in our path every step of the way.

[patrickt]

Positing stuff like this without substantiation of facts or logic may get you a lot of Thanks on right-leaning web forums like this, but the fact is that, even in your personal example, I'm pretty sure that the main and essential contribution that said capitalists made was intellectual. I'm pretty sure other people built the hotel itself and the roads leading to and from, provide the electricity and water and other utilities (unless your parents are using a lightning rod that they constructed or something), and perhaps most of the work therein and that workers likewise compose(d) most of the customer base. Going even further, I would likewise speculate that founding such an enterprise tends to require a certain level of education, which still other workers (teachers, like yours truly) provided. There is probably precious little that was done without some form of help, whether direct or indirect.

I can understand one wanting to see their parents in a sort of superhuman light wherein everything they have is exclusively of their making, but that's not reality. Everyone who has gotten anywhere in life had help and probably quite a lot.

I'm just getting very tired of this arrogant campaign that Mr. Romney -- a cradle-to-grave kazillionaire aristocrat who knows and cares nothing about working people -- is leading, going around promoting this elitist worldview where capitalists are the basic social force of this country who need more tax breaks (even though half of them don't even pay my tax rate), where welfare mothers are the exploiting parasites, and so on and so on and so on. It's just very annoying and demeaning. And I very much believe that's the whole point. Capitalists provide the Romney camp with the vast majority of its money. He's not even trying to appeal to ordinary working people in general. He's just a pampered, privileged, stuck up snob whom I can't relate to. Neither can I relate to you calling me a "deadbeat" and a "failure" for having a collectivist viewpoint. But you weren't trying to be relatable to me. You were just trying to win the applause of the rightist majority here. (Which you predictably got with the personal anecdote.)



Nothing sexist there. :rollseyes:

How incredibly stupid but expected from people who don't work and don't respect those who do work. The "someone else laid the bricks" is just so much stupid crap it's embarrassing. Those who never had done anything and never will are desperate to "prove" that no one else does either. It's their excust for failure.

I would like to remind the socialists that if they want to claim the government gets credit for everything--hey, they built the roads--then the government also gets to take credit for deadbeats sitting on the curb drinking ale and thugs killing each other in the streets of Chicago.

And for you to spout dogma and then whine about logic is ludicrous.

[Jarlaxle]

You are right, Christians have a history of decapitating themselves (and others) by various instruments of war, and torturing themselves with all kinds of imaginative gadgets. Bombing did not become the more prefered method of mass human destruction until the cannon replaced the trebuchet, catapult, and boiling oil.

It is a total war with Christians, as opposed to the individual "jihad" of the Muslim. Which is why Nagasaki and Hiroshima were vaporized.`

So I stand corrected. US Far Rightwing Fanatics will never be able to find common ground with Muslim underwear bombers, as far as tactics are concerned, until such time as the Muslims get themselves armed with Nuclear missiles. THEN, they might reach a mutually assured agreement of self destruction.

This post might be the single nuttiest thing posted this week!

[Mainecoons]

Which is why Nagasaki and Hiroshima were vaporized.

They were vaporized because the Japanese picked a fight with the wrong people. The lesson has been learned so well you will never see them make this mistake again.