US consumer finally losing the will to shop

[Common]

I dont think theyve lost the will, I think the ability to shop has been taken from them. Stagnant wages and outsourcing putting millions out of work.

Overall sales growth below forecasts and sales excluding cars and petrol flat

US consumer finally losing the will to shop





Overall sales growth below forecasts and sales excluding cars and petrol flat
More video (http://video.ft.com/)

When the going gets tough, investors have grown used to betting on the tough going shopping. Every wobble of the past few years saw the consumer ignoring currency collapses, geopolitics and even government brushes with bankruptcy, and instead heading for the mall.
The same has been true this year. The best-performing stocks in the US, UK and eurozone are in the defensive consumer staples and the racier consumer discretionary sectors. Almost no other sectors managed to make money, at least in dollar terms. Even in emerging markets, over the past six months consumer stocks have been the best performers, although they still fell.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bbcfc2fc-728d-11e5-a129-3fcc4f641d98.html

[Green Arrow]

Americans will likely never lose the will to shop, our culture is 100% based in consumerism.

It's less a loss of will and more a loss of ability. The purchasing power of the middle class has been shrinking for decades and it ain't slowing down.

[Captain Obvious]

Americans will likely never lose the will to shop, our culture is 100% based in consumerism.

It's less a loss of will and more a loss of ability. The purchasing power of the middle class has been shrinking for decades and it ain't slowing down.

Materialism = capitalism + democracy

[Green Arrow]

Materialism = capitalism + democracy

I look at the formula as "Materialism = capitalism + democracy - religion"

[Common]

Americans will likely never lose the will to shop, our culture is 100% based in consumerism.

It's less a loss of will and more a loss of ability. The purchasing power of the middle class has been shrinking for decades and it ain't slowing down.

Walmart dropped 10% and warned its not over. The big 3 banks have posted earning loss's

Outsourcing american jobs and two decades of stagnating wages are coming to roost.

[Captain Obvious]

I look at the formula as "Materialism = capitalism + democracy - religion"

Faith, to be specific, but agreed otherwise.

[Green Arrow]

And for those on the forum that get squeamish when they hear the dreaded "r" word, you can substitute "religion" in the formula for morality, spirituality, whatever you want along those lines, it's still true.

[Green Arrow]

Walmart dropped 10% and warned its not over. The big 3 banks have posted earning loss's

Outsourcing american jobs and two decades of stagnating wages are coming to roost.

It's actually ironic, if you think about it.

[Common]

It's actually ironic, if you think about it.

It was inevitable, I guess they thought they could send jobs out of the country forever out of greed and then send the cheap crap products back here for americans to buy and make them richer forever.

Soon theres going to be another big hit on american retail. I use a japanese made preshave. Ive been buying it from american retailers for 28.00 plus shipping for 3.4 ounces. The last two I bought directly from japan for 11.00 shipping included.

Theres a new thing called china first computer parts and accessories, it comes directly from china and its kicking other brands names butts price wise. THEY are made in china anyway.

Theres more and more outlets on the net to buy the same products direct and its a growing trend.

[Redrose]

I do almost all of my shopping online, through PayPal. I don't enjoy going to a store anymore. I can shop at my leisure, in my home, I have tons of selection, have buyer proection for problems, returns. Most of what I buy is free shipping and no sales tax. We've been shopping like that for years, without a problem. Hundreds of purchases from fine jewelry, furs to collar extenders and tweezers and everything in between.

[Bob]

It was inevitable, I guess they thought they could send jobs out of the country forever out of greed and then send the cheap crap products back here for americans to buy and make them richer forever.

Soon theres going to be another big hit on american retail. I use a japanese made preshave. Ive been buying it from american retailers for 28.00 plus shipping for 3.4 ounces. The last two I bought directly from japan for 11.00 shipping included.

Theres a new thing called china first computer parts and accessories, it comes directly from china and its kicking other brands names butts price wise. THEY are made in china anyway.

Theres more and more outlets on the net to buy the same products direct and its a growing trend.

What you are doing is exactly why jobs go overseas.

Not that I blame you.

[Individual]

I do almost all of my shopping online, through PayPal. I don't enjoy going to a store anymore. I can shop at my leisure, in my home, I have tons of selection, have buyer proection for problems, returns. Most of what I buy is free shipping and no sales tax. We've been shopping like that for years, without a problem. Hundreds of purchases from fine jewelry, furs to collar extenders and tweezers and everything in between.

The great thing about online is you can find American made products. Yes, it is hard to find some of the modern electronics that are locked up under intellectual property but you can still find a great many things made by your fellow Americans. Etsy is a good site for American made items. There are many other sites that are similar to Etsy.

Let the stores cling to Red China if they want. It will only be the reason for their demise. There is a growing trend of people who "freelance", as we call it. These people make many excellent products and you can find them online if you search. Contrary to popular belief, their products are priced as low as communist made products and are of superior quality. It might take some looking on the Internet but you can find them.

Now if we could free up some of the products protected by ridiculous intellectual property laws that seem to only protect China...

[Redrose]

On Ebay I check the box for North America only.

I refuse to buy from China.

[donttread]

I look at the formula as "Materialism = capitalism + democracy - religion"

Corporatism is all.

[donttread]

Don't underestimate the power of marketing and plastic over sheep. By next month people with flock to malls buying presents people don't really want much less need with money they don't have . And the reports will tell you how good for America that is

[Ransom]

Don't underestimate the power of marketing and plastic over sheep. By next month people with flock to malls buying presents people don't really want much less need with money they don't have . And the reports will tell you how good for America that is

I don't, remember your questions that remain unanswered concerning what make of car you drive, what make is your smart phone, your bandwidth provider and the operating system of your essential and necessary products you carry everyday?

Oops.

[leekohler2]

Walmart dropped 10% and warned its not over. The big 3 banks have posted earning loss's

Outsourcing american jobs and two decades of stagnating wages are coming to roost.

It's not just that. I am far from poor, but I used to go out shopping every weekend, and bought plenty.

Here's my reason- there's just nothing I want that's in a store anymore, other than groceries. I have a big TV, a video projector, a good car, computers, etc. I have all the toys I want. I used to go to the record store very weekend, but you get music and movies online now. I'm not a big clothing buyer. I just buy what I need when I need it. Once in a while I go antique shopping. But when I go out now, it's to a restaurant or bar- rarely to any sort of retail store. There's just nothing I want or need there anymore.

[Common]

What you are doing is exactly why jobs go overseas.

Not that I blame you.

Bob I have disagree heres why. If you lowered our tax rate to 15% from 35% and our corporations could go overseas make the product cheaper and pay 5% tax they would still do it. Its about profit which in turn is greed.

The rich got richer and corporations grew and prospered when the tax rate was 90%

[leekohler2]

Bob I have disagree heres why. If you lowered our tax rate to 15% from 35% and our corporations could go overseas make the product cheaper and pay 5% tax they would still do it. Its about profit which in turn is greed.

The rich got richer and corporations grew and prospered when the tax rate was 90%

Actually, most corporations outsource so they don't have to pay Americans a decent wage. Trade agreements have been a big factor in this too. But as I mentioned a few posts ago, there are many factors at work here.

[Cigar]

Wow ... my Wife sure as hell did know this. :laugh:

[Peter1469]

Walmart dropped 10% and warned its not over. The big 3 banks have posted earning loss's

Outsourcing american jobs and two decades of stagnating wages are coming to roost.

You can't outsource retail workers (unless you consider Internet sales to be outsourcing).

[Bob]

Bob I have disagree heres why. If you lowered our tax rate to 15% from 35% and our corporations could go overseas make the product cheaper and pay 5% tax they would still do it. Its about profit which in turn is greed.

The rich got richer and corporations grew and prospered when the tax rate was 90%

I am sort of flying blind by your reply. Is this about why corporations move away? I think it is.

Not to do a lesson since I am sure you know, but the value of the company (stock prices) is very important.

While normally the rich do own stocks (I did a study on this in the 1960s, studying wealth sources) the managers may get paid more but look at the inconvenience to leave America for say China. Normally Americans are not fluent in Chinese (some clearly are) to talk well to the natives in China.

Taxes do influence the bottom line and so chasing cheap taxes is a good way to increase the value of the stocks.

So, my contention is the use of greed. I see it as adding value to the stocks and for the people owning the stocks, that adds up to more wealth for them.

[Peter1469]

I do almost all of my shopping online, through PayPal. I don't enjoy going to a store anymore. I can shop at my leisure, in my home, I have tons of selection, have buyer proection for problems, returns. Most of what I buy is free shipping and no sales tax. We've been shopping like that for years, without a problem. Hundreds of purchases from fine jewelry, furs to collar extenders and tweezers and everything in between.

I use Amazon Prime.

[Private Pickle]

Taxes and healthcare costs are excessive.

[leekohler2]

Taxes and healthcare costs are excessive.

Health care, yes. Taxes, no. Our taxes are low compared to other places in the world. But our health care costs are indeed far more than the rest of the world.

[Private Pickle]

Health care, yes. Taxes, no. Our taxes are low compared to other places in the world. But our health care costs are indeed far more than the rest of the world.

Taxes take about 35% from me in total....

[Peter1469]

Health care, yes. Taxes, no. Our taxes are low compared to other places in the world. But our health care costs are indeed far more than the rest of the world.

When you add state and federal taxes, along with the hidden taxes together, the US is not lower than most of the 1st world.

[Bob]

Actually, most corporations outsource so they don't have to pay Americans a decent wage. Trade agreements have been a big factor in this too. But as I mentioned a few posts ago, there are many factors at work here.

That is the Democrat's reply vs the real reason.

The Economist says the reason is this.


For more than 30 years companies, especially American ones, have been merging with foreign firms or acquiring them outright in order to shift their tax bases abroad. It started in 1982, when McDermott, a construction company, outsmarted America’s Internal Revenue Service (the IRS) by moving its base from New Orleans to Panama, where it had a subsidiary. Ever since, this kind of move, called a “corporate inversion”, has been an attractive way for American companies with overseas earnings to reduce their tax bills. Because the American taxman has unusually long arms, companies based in the United States who earn profits abroad can end up with piles of cash “stuck” overseas: earnings that face hefty corporate taxation the instant they are brought to America (for example to pay staff or to invest). An inversion might not affect a company’s day-to-day operations, but by changing the country of domicile officially, it can offer a way out. Since this means less revenue for Uncle Sam, the American government has been trying to desperately stop companies from fleeing and taking their revenue with them. But only rarely has the government been fleet-footed enough to catch them.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/08/economist-explains-9

[Bob]

Taxes take about 35% from me in total....

That is not reasonable at all. Way too high.

[Peter1469]

If US corporations didn't have to pay US taxes on money earned overseas they would bring it back here.

The US is one of the only nations in the world with such a tax law.

[leekohler2]

That is the Democrat's reply vs the real reason.

The Economist says the reason is this.



http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/08/economist-explains-9

Then do away with that.

[leekohler2]

When you add state and federal taxes, along with the hidden taxes together, the US is not lower than most of the 1st world.

Well, feel free to dispute this:


U.S. taxes are low relative to those in other developed countries. In 2008 U.S. taxes at all levels of government claimed 26 percent of GDP, compared with an average of 35 percent of GDP for the 33 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

And for something more recent, this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/

[Bob]

Then do away with that loophole.

I am anti government control. The more freedom even you have, the better.

[Bob]

Well, feel free to dispute this:



http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

And for something more recent, this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/


China is not on the list. Why not?

[Bob]

If US corporations didn't have to pay US taxes on money earned overseas they would bring it back here.

The US is one of the only nations in the world with such a tax law.

This is done by Democrats and I call that true greed.

Make it non taxable and watch the funds rush to America to spur production.

[leekohler2]

China is not on the list. Why not?

How should I know? I didn't make the chart. I assume you have some super secret insider information?

EDIT- actually, China is on the chart if you look at the one from The Atlantic. So I don't think there is some conspiracy going on here.

[Bob]

How should I know? I didn't make the chart. I assume you have some super secret insider information?

Given all the talk of jobs going to China, don't you think it is important?

[leekohler2]

This is done by Democrats and I call that true greed.

Make it non taxable and watch the funds rush to America to spur production.

Doubtful. Why were they making that money overseas in the first place?

[leekohler2]

Given all the talk of jobs going to China, don't you think it is important?

Read my edited post, Bob. You clearly did not look at all the info I provided you. You saw what you wanted to see.

[Peter1469]

You are comparing tax revenue to GDP. The US GDP was ~$17T (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD) in 2014. In that same year, the world GDP was ~$78T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product). The numbers your article cite to are not very helpful. The US made about 21% of the world's GDP.

Look at percentage of income individuals pay for a real comparison. Here is what Germans pay ~40% over $300K:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Income_Tax_Germany_2010.png/1280px-Income_Tax_Germany_2010.png


Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#/media/File:Income_Tax_Germany_2010.png)

Americans pay roughly similar if they earn that much in income (as opposed to capital). This chart is just federal- you have to add in state taxes and for some city taxes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/U.S._Federal_Income_Tax_Rates_2013.png
Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#/media/File:U.S._Federal_Income_Tax_Rates_2013.png)

In some states, the American making over $300K will pay more in taxes than the German. You can look at other nations if you like.



Well, feel free to dispute this:



http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

And for something more recent, this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/

[donttread]

I don't, remember your questions that remain unanswered concerning what make of car you drive, what make is your smart phone, your bandwidth provider and the operating system of your essential and necessary products you carry everyday?

Oops.

I gave up on discussing that with you because it was like talking to the wall. Once again Ransom , nobody is as dumb as you pretend to be so just stop

[donttread]

Well, feel free to dispute this:



http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm

And for something more recent, this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/01/how-low-are-us-taxes-compared-to-other-countries/267148/


Many of the nations high on the list are essentially socialist and the government provides much more for the average person than does , or should ours. Apples to oranges

[leekohler2]

Many of the nations high on the list are essentially socialist and the government provides much more for the average person than does , or should ours. Apples to oranges

Oh I know, but to claim that we have ridiculously high taxes is dishonest at best.

It should also be noted that those countries have more solid middle classes than we do.

[Bob]

Doubtful. Why were they making that money overseas in the first place?

Unfair USA tax rates is why.

[Bob]

Oh I know, but to claim that we have ridiculously high taxes is dishonest at best.

It should also be noted that those countries have more solid middle classes than we do.

You must made two assumptions.

Both wrong.

[Bob]

Doubtful. Why were they making that money overseas in the first place?

And paying taxes on it overseas. Guess who gave them the tax breaks?

[Peter1469]

Bump to page 2

You are comparing tax revenue to GDP. The US GDP was ~$17T (http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.CD) in 2014. In that same year, the world GDP was ~$78T (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_world_product). The numbers your article cite to are not very helpful. The US made about 21% of the world's GDP.

Look at percentage of income individuals pay for a real comparison. Here is what Germans pay ~40% over $300K:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Income_Tax_Germany_2010.png/1280px-Income_Tax_Germany_2010.png


Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Germany#/media/File:Income_Tax_Germany_2010.png)

Americans pay roughly similar if they earn that much in income (as opposed to capital). This chart is just federal- you have to add in state taxes and for some city taxes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/U.S._Federal_Income_Tax_Rates_2013.png
Link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#/media/File:U.S._Federal_Income_Tax_Rates_2013.png)

In some states, the American making over $300K will pay more in taxes than the German. You can look at other nations if you like.

[donttread]

Oh I know, but to claim that we have ridiculously high taxes is dishonest at best.

It should also be noted that those countries have more solid middle classes than we do.

Perhaps the correct way to look at is what does the average citizen get in return for his or her tax dollar in each country?

[zelmo1234]

Walmart dropped 10% and warned its not over. The big 3 banks have posted earning loss's

Outsourcing american jobs and two decades of stagnating wages are coming to roost.

It will be interesting to see what Target's and Costco's numbers are. Many times When Wal Mart takes a dip the consumers have moved up the food chain.

I would highly doubt this is the case, but it could be