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IMPress Polly
10-16-2015, 12:05 PM
Hehehehehe! It looks like the Donald has decided to go after the candidate I'm supporting (Bernie Sanders) and his manner of so doing has proven quite amusing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENwpdgPMdMk

...I think it safe to say that the man is more than a little worried about the prospect of facing Bernie! :laugh: As well he should be too: the most recent polling data shows Sanders beating Trump in a hypothetical general election match-up by a margin of 16 points!

More pointedly though, the Donald seems to have a particular animous toward what it is that Bernie stands for. I've never seen him quite that angry before. How are we to explain that? Well why not consider the book he's been promoting throughout the campaign: The Art of the Deal? The title perfectly concentrates what he (Trump) is all about. The most evil words in the English dictionary to a man whose whole life and value system have revolved around exchange value are "free" and "giving" because they represent the opposite of everything that such a man stands for: the selfishness, greed, and corruption. The presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders is indeed aggressively promoting concepts like economic rights (e.g. the right to health care, the right to a full education, the right to gainful employment, the right to a dignified retirement, etc.) and that obviously terrifies the billionaire real estate tycoon and reality show host because, for someone as privileged as him, those things mean, heaven forbid, making sacrifices for the common good. Were Sanders' proposals to become law, for example, Trump would wind up paying about six times his current rate of taxation and find himself obliged to double the pay rate of many of his workers. NOW is his particularly violent reaction to the prospect of a Bernie Sanders presidency starting to make sense?

I'm glad he's scared. Any rational person in his position definitely should be because the movement Bernie's starting is real, powerful, and growing! That's because, though they possess most of the wealth, there aren't many people in Donald Trump's privileged position.

Ethereal
10-16-2015, 12:36 PM
It's really disheartening that the major options being presented to Americans are both giant statists who simply differ in their approach to statism.

As I've said before, I prefer Sanders' statism simply because it places less emphasis on expanding the police state and imperialism, but that doesn't make it any less statist. Indeed, the language of "right to healthcare, education, employment, and retirement" is imbued with an assumption that one individual has a right to the labor and the earnings of another individual.

Chris
10-16-2015, 02:50 PM
Agree^^.

But will add Trump is not scared, he's just using populist rhetoric against government giving things away.

Nit that he too wouldn't give things away.

Cletus
10-16-2015, 03:17 PM
Hehehehehe! It looks like the Donald has decided to go after the candidate I'm supporting (Bernie Sanders) and his manner of so doing has proven quite amusing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENwpdgPMdMk

...I think it safe to say that the man is more than a little worried about the prospect of facing Bernie! :laugh: As well he should be too: the most recent polling data shows Sanders beating Trump in a hypothetical general election match-up by a margin of 16 points!

More pointedly though, the Donald seems to have a particular animous toward what it is that Bernie stands for. I've never seen him quite that angry before. How are we to explain that? Well why not consider the book he's been promoting throughout the campaign: The Art of the Deal? The title perfectly concentrates what he (Trump) is all about. The most evil words in the English dictionary to a man whose whole life and value system have revolved around exchange value are "free" and "giving" because they represent the opposite of everything that such a man stands for: the selfishness, greed, and corruption. The presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders is indeed aggressively promoting concepts like economic rights (e.g. the right to health care, the right to a full education, the right to gainful employment, the right to a dignified retirement, etc.) and that obviously terrifies the billionaire real estate tycoon and reality show host because, for someone as privileged as him, those things mean, heaven forbid, making sacrifices for the common good. Were Sanders' proposals to become law, for example, Trump would wind up paying about six times his current rate of taxation and find himself obliged to double the pay rate of many of his workers. NOW is his particularly violent reaction to the prospect of a Bernie Sanders presidency starting to make sense?

I'm glad he's scared. Any rational person in his position definitely should be because the movement Bernie's starting is real, powerful, and growing! That's because, though they possess most of the wealth, there aren't many people in Donald Trump's privileged position.

I don't think Trump is "afraid" of Sanders. I think he views him with the same kind of contempt most people do.

Show me something, anything, that details these rights you claim we have... free health care, a full education, gainful employment, dignified retirement, etc. I would really like to see what it is you think provides the foundation for those, because my bet guess is that they don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of a bunch of fools with the sense of entitlement of five year olds.

HoneyBadger
10-16-2015, 03:23 PM
Sanders thinks we ought to be more like Denmark with their 180% automobile tax and subpar social services? Or, perhaps, he's just enamored of Janteloven, the social system whereby individuals are repressed and beaten down anytime they stray from the collective.

Green Arrow
10-16-2015, 04:19 PM
It's almost impossible to discuss politics in America anymore, hardly anyone is capable of approaching the discussion calmly and reasonably.

Mister D
10-16-2015, 04:20 PM
It's almost impossible to discuss politics in America anymore, hardly anyone is capable of approaching the discussion calmly and reasonably.

Which is why I tend to stick to history, religion etc.

Dr. Who
10-16-2015, 04:36 PM
Which is why I tend to stick to history, religion etc.
People get pretty hostile about religion as well.

Mister D
10-16-2015, 04:37 PM
People get pretty hostile about religion as well.

Yeah, but the experience is more edifying.

decedent
10-16-2015, 04:52 PM
I don't think Trump is "afraid" of Sanders. I think he views him with the same kind of contempt most people do.

Absolutely. Most people hate Sanders because he's so well-liked.

Bob
10-16-2015, 05:05 PM
I don't think Trump is "afraid" of Sanders. I think he views him with the same kind of contempt most people do.

Show me something, anything, that details these rights you claim we have... free health care, a full education, gainful employment, dignified retirement, etc. I would really like to see what it is you think provides the foundation for those, because my bet guess is that they don't exist anywhere but in the imaginations of a bunch of fools with the sense of entitlement of five year olds.

These people assuming such rights believe rights are invented by Government to dispense to those they believe are deserving.

Sanders supporters accept Socialism and I am not shocked they support Sanders.

Bob
10-16-2015, 05:06 PM
Absolutely. Most people hate Sanders because he's so well-liked.

Sanders appeals to socialists who of course think he is well liked. His supporters wish they have the support Hillary has, also socialist but she tried hiding it.

nic34
10-16-2015, 05:12 PM
Hehehehehe! It looks like the Donald has decided to go after the candidate I'm supporting (Bernie Sanders) and his manner of so doing has proven quite amusing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENwpdgPMdMk

...I think it safe to say that the man is more than a little worried about the prospect of facing Bernie! :laugh: As well he should be too: the most recent polling data shows Sanders beating Trump in a hypothetical general election match-up by a margin of 16 points!

More pointedly though, the Donald seems to have a particular animous toward what it is that Bernie stands for. I've never seen him quite that angry before. How are we to explain that? Well why not consider the book he's been promoting throughout the campaign: The Art of the Deal? The title perfectly concentrates what he (Trump) is all about. The most evil words in the English dictionary to a man whose whole life and value system have revolved around exchange value are "free" and "giving" because they represent the opposite of everything that such a man stands for: the selfishness, greed, and corruption. The presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders is indeed aggressively promoting concepts like economic rights (e.g. the right to health care, the right to a full education, the right to gainful employment, the right to a dignified retirement, etc.) and that obviously terrifies the billionaire real estate tycoon and reality show host because, for someone as privileged as him, those things mean, heaven forbid, making sacrifices for the common good. Were Sanders' proposals to become law, for example, Trump would wind up paying about six times his current rate of taxation and find himself obliged to double the pay rate of many of his workers. NOW is his particularly violent reaction to the prospect of a Bernie Sanders presidency starting to make sense?

I'm glad he's scared. Any rational person in his position definitely should be because the movement Bernie's starting is real, powerful, and growing! That's because, though they possess most of the wealth, there aren't many people in Donald Trump's privileged position.


But of course the nation's premier big mouth apologist for the corporatists, is a corporatist himself, worried about those that vow to break up the oligarchs, and put actual people in charge again.

decedent
10-16-2015, 05:42 PM
Sanders appeals to socialists who of course think he is well liked. His supporters wish they have the support Hillary has, also socialist but she tried hiding it.

Yes, polls are for academic snobs with their lib arts degrees. I go with my gut.

As for clinton being a socialist, She's only earned $50 million at best, which makes her just a hair away from being a full-out commie.

Bob
10-16-2015, 05:47 PM
Yes, polls are for academic snobs with their lib arts degrees. I go with my gut.

As for clinton being a socialist, She's only earned $50 million at best, which makes her just a hair away from being a full-out commie.


Some posters go with their fat heads. At least you go with your gut.

Socialists don't mind having plenty of money. They simply hate others having plenty of money.

decedent
10-16-2015, 05:57 PM
Some posters go with their fat heads. At least you go with your gut.

Socialists don't mind having plenty of money. They simply hate others having plenty of money.

Socialists want to get rich from other people, like when that cabbie asked me to actually pay him for driving me to the airport. I told him to drive his commie ass to the USSR.

Chris
10-16-2015, 05:57 PM
Yes, polls are for academic snobs with their lib arts degrees. I go with my gut.

As for clinton being a socialist, She's only earned $50 million at best, which makes her just a hair away from being a full-out commie.

Clinton is in the top 0.1%.

Socialism sure has changed.

IMPress Polly
10-16-2015, 06:10 PM
What in the motherfucking hell are you talking about, decedent, Bob, and Chris? Hillary Clinton doesn't even claim to be a socialist and in fact defended capitalism against Bernie Sanders' mild critique thereof in the recent debate! Clinton is simply a recent convert to economic populism, which isn't at all by itself the same thing as socialism, let alone communism. I am a communist. Hillary Clinton is not.

Redrose
10-16-2015, 06:16 PM
Hehehehehe! It looks like the Donald has decided to go after the candidate I'm supporting (Bernie Sanders) and his manner of so doing has proven quite amusing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENwpdgPMdMk

...I think it safe to say that the man is more than a little worried about the prospect of facing Bernie! :laugh: As well he should be too: the most recent polling data shows Sanders beating Trump in a hypothetical general election match-up by a margin of 16 points!

More pointedly though, the Donald seems to have a particular animous toward what it is that Bernie stands for. I've never seen him quite that angry before. How are we to explain that? Well why not consider the book he's been promoting throughout the campaign: The Art of the Deal? The title perfectly concentrates what he (Trump) is all about. The most evil words in the English dictionary to a man whose whole life and value system have revolved around exchange value are "free" and "giving" because they represent the opposite of everything that such a man stands for: the selfishness, greed, and corruption. The presidential campaign of Bernie Sanders is indeed aggressively promoting concepts like economic rights (e.g. the right to health care, the right to a full education, the right to gainful employment, the right to a dignified retirement, etc.) and that obviously terrifies the billionaire real estate tycoon and reality show host because, for someone as privileged as him, those things mean, heaven forbid, making sacrifices for the common good. Were Sanders' proposals to become law, for example, Trump would wind up paying about six times his current rate of taxation and find himself obliged to double the pay rate of many of his workers. NOW is his particularly violent reaction to the prospect of a Bernie Sanders presidency starting to make sense?

I'm glad he's scared. Any rational person in his position definitely should be because the movement Bernie's starting is real, powerful, and growing! That's because, though they possess most of the wealth, there aren't many people in Donald Trump's privileged position.


You are supporting your guy from Vermont, OK I can see why.

Please say why you feel his anti-capitalism pro socialism view is the way to go.

Do you really understand what he stands for and what socialism would do to this country?

If not, just look at Greece. They had their own Bernie who led them up the garden path.

Tahuyaman
10-16-2015, 07:21 PM
The thread title claims that Trump had a " melt down". When and where did this melt down occur? I must have missed it.

IMPress Polly
10-17-2015, 10:44 AM
Redrose wrote:
You are supporting your guy from Vermont, OK I can see why.

Please say why you feel his anti-capitalism pro socialism view is the way to go.

Do you really understand what he stands for and what socialism would do to this country?

If not, just look at Greece. They had their own Bernie who led them up the garden path.

It has become very obvious that neither the Greek "Socialist Party" or Syriza are even left wing institutions, let alone socialist organizations. One can tell in that they have been and are (as applicable) creating and enforcing genuine austerity budgets, by which I mean budgets that slash public spending on things like emergency food provision for the unemployed and retirement pensions by 50 percent plus, privatize large swaths of industry, cut off electricity to the poor in dead of winter so they (sometimes literally) freeze in the dark, and dramatically hike taxes primarily on working people (e.g. consumption taxes) in order to satisfy the demands of mostly foreign millionaire and billionaire financiers, mind you even while already running a budget surplus! That is the opposite of what authentic socialists do. Greece is not what you'll find the socialist left here or really anywhere backing as a going model.

As to whether I understand what socialism is, the answer is yes. As someone who has been a socialist (most of the time specifically a communist) for her entire adult life and who has invested much of her life in a combination of research on and activism in the service of the advancement of that cause, I probably understand socialism as an idea and the various different brands and nuances thereof better than anyone else on this message board, yourself included. To this end, I think it's worth pointing out that frankly Bernie Sanders' variety of socialism is extremely moderate, defined simply by his belief that the meeting of human needs should be the top priority of economic policy. It contains very little in the way of nationalization of property (far less than I would advocate), for example. While I choose to respect Bernie's practice of occasionally calling himself a socialist (mostly because the willingness of such a prominent and popular person to do so helps legitimize and popularize socialism in the abstract as an idea here in a country wherein it's been very stigmatized for a very long time thanks to the Cold War), the truth is that he's not that serious about it. He's in essence just a particularly hardline economic populist and you can tell as much by the going models of "socialism" he embraces: Scandinavian countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Norway, all of which have economies that are mostly privately owned. Serious socialists such as yours truly have, as our bare minimum expectation concerning the establishment of a socialist condition, the bringing of most of the economy under some form of social ownership and administration. Hence why it's called socialism, not Robin Hoodism.

That said, were Bernie to get his way on everything -- his entire election platform enacted into law -- this would indeed become a very different country. His 90% top marginal tax rate with no tax loopholes and various other taxes on the super-rich (e.g. a new tax on speculation) would virtually eliminate billionaires as a class. Hence why Sanders is always rhetorically assailing "the billionaire class" specifically. Conversely, working people would be much better off were Sanders to get his full platform enacted into law. For example, even minimum wage workers would be lifted out of poverty through his $15/hour minimum wage proposal, while at the same time life would just generally become much more affordable between things like free health insurance, a hard price ceiling on prescription drugs, tuition-free access to public colleges and universities, and dramatically lowered interest rates on existing student debt, alongside higher Social Security payouts and expanded benefits. To give you an idea of just how much more affordable these things would make life for students, working class people, and retirees, consider the fact that half of all bankruptcies in this country are related to medical expenses on some level. Were those not a factor, that alone would, in other words, probably reduce the number of annual bankruptcy filings in this country by about half! Neither would we be at any particular risk of repeating the experience of the Great Recession because the megabanks would be actively broken up and with a firewall placed between commercial and investment banking. Ordinary working people would also have much greater say in the political life of the nation, as Sanders has proposed to replace our current unlimited donations soft money free-for-all with a system of public campaign financing that would ensure each major candidate equal resources with which to promote their ideas. As to the prospect of capital flight stemming from all these rather anti-corporate measures, Bernie's protectionist trade policy would tend to make that much more difficult than it would be under present circumstances.

Bernie is also in many ways the most pro-feminist candidate running for either major party's nomination. Were he to get his entire platform on gender enacted, the result would be a far more equitable situation. For example, women would be legally guaranteed far greater access than we presently enjoy to employment in fields like manufacturing, construction, engineering, scientific fields in general, and other lines of work that don't correspond to traditional household duties (like waitress, maid, teacher, nurse, etc.; the currently-prevailing norm) because sex-based job assignments -- workplace gender segregation -- would be explicitly prohibited. Furthermore, women would be much better able to keep those (or any) jobs rather than having to quit or curtail their working hours due to a pregnancy or a recent birth or in order to tend to the needs of a child because 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave would be guaranteed by law while the state would provide free child care as needed and universal preschool would be guaranteed. Bernie is also unequivocally pro-choice when it comes to reproductive rights. A couple of these positions are more pro-feminist than the ones the Democratic woman in this race, Hillary Clinton, has embraced. (Hillary calls for guaranteed "affordable" access to child care rather than absolutely free child care and likewise favors some regulation of third-trimester abortions.)

As to the matter of racial justice, were Bernie to get his entire platform on that enacted into law, this nation would be characterized by universal, automatic voter registration (which would, needless to say, overcome the effects of the Supreme Court's recent gutting of the Voting Rights Act), community policing (with mandatory police body cameras and without military weapons and duds), the banning of for-profit prisons, and the decriminalization of most of the non-violent offenses (namely and especially marijuana possession) that have been applied along racial lines to result in our prison system including more people than any other country, far more people of color than white people, and more non-violent than violent offenders. It would also simultaneously witness the creation of tens of millions of new jobs involving the reparation of the nation's crumbling infrastructure through the advent of a massive new public works program that, objectively speaking, would principally benefit African American youth and Latino youth. It would also furthermore witness millions of currently undocumented immigrants acquiring legal status and citizenship, which would greatly increase their legal rights and cripple the ability of employers to systematically use them as slave labor. In short, no candidate running would do more for people and communities of color than Bernie Sanders.

In terms of the environment, we would no longer subsidize the production of fossil fuels, we definitely wouldn't sign onto the construction of the Keystone XL pipeline, and there would be a tax on carbon emissions (which is a qualitative step beyond the cap and trade policy that President Obama has tried, and so far failed, to enact during his tenure), all of which, together with more aggressive subsidization of renewable clean energies like wind and solar power, would unquestionably tend to accelerate our long-term transition away from reliance on fossil fuels and toward a dramatically reduced carbon footprint.

Concerning foreign affairs, no candidate running embraces a more dovish foreign policy than Bernie Sanders (who is indeed calling for a reduction in military spending), so our risk of getting involved in another war (especially one involving tens of thousands of combat troops on the ground) would be very minimal. Our new protectionist trade policy and more or less sealed border with fewer visas being issued under a President Sanders, on the other hand, may help isolate us from the international community to a qualitatively greater degree, both hurting the world economy and causing price inflation on non-essential goods. This is the biggest risk involved in electing Bernie Sanders president, in my opinion. Overall though, I think it's definitely worth that risk.

So yes, I'm fully aware of what I'm voting for. By my standards, those are moderate positions. Sanders for me is a compromise candidate whom I embrace out of electoral pragmatism (i.e. he's exponentially more viable than the fringe third party candidates who are closer to my views), but a highly favorable one on balance.

Truth Detector
10-17-2015, 10:50 AM
Scary; the two biggest idiots on the campaign trail are drawing huge crowds of supporters.

Chris
10-17-2015, 10:58 AM
What in the motherfucking hell are you talking about, decedent, Bob, and Chris? Hillary Clinton doesn't even claim to be a socialist and in fact defended capitalism against Bernie Sanders' mild critique thereof in the recent debate! Clinton is simply a recent convert to economic populism, which isn't at all by itself the same thing as socialism, let alone communism. I am a communist. Hillary Clinton is not.

I said "Clinton is in the top 0.1%" and was sarcastic of her being a socialist, she's a capitalist pig. :D

OGIS
10-17-2015, 02:00 PM
Sanders thinks we ought to be more like Denmark with their 180% automobile tax and subpar social services? Or, perhaps, he's just enamored of Janteloven, the social system whereby individuals are repressed and beaten down anytime they stray from the collective.

Er... that's in a novel.

OGIS
10-17-2015, 02:30 PM
In terms of the environment, we would no longer subsidize the production of fossil fuels, we definitely wouldn't sign onto the construction of the Keystone XL pipeline, and there would be a tax on carbon emissions (which is a qualitative step beyond the cap and trade policy that President Obama has tried, and so far failed, to enact during his tenure), all of which, together with more aggressive subsidization of renewable clean energies like wind and solar power, would unquestionably tend to accelerate our long-term transition away from reliance on fossil fuels and toward a dramatically reduced carbon footprint.

Since I, as a living animal, breath out carbon dioxide, were this to become law (and therefore precedent) can you guarantee that no future (presumably Republican) president would not extend the tax to include a tax on my breathing?

And what happens if I can't afford to pay the tax?

Mac-7
10-17-2015, 02:30 PM
What in the motherfucking hell are you talking about, decedent, Bob, and Chris? Hillary Clinton doesn't even claim to be a socialist and in fact defended capitalism against Bernie Sanders' mild critique thereof in the recent debate! Clinton is simply a recent convert to economic populism, which isn't at all by itself the same thing as socialism, let alone communism. I am a communist. Hillary Clinton is not.

Green Apple will ban me from his thread for saying this

But this is not his thread so he can't

Ha ha

Hillary is not a socialist or a communist

She's a fascist

as are most of the democrat party leadership

Peter1469
10-17-2015, 02:31 PM
Bernie's tax rate on the rich wouldn't eliminate them. It would relocate them to other countries.

OGIS
10-17-2015, 02:59 PM
Hillary is not a socialist or a communist

She's a fascist

as are most of the democrat party leadership

Proving that even a stopped clock is occasionally correct.

Mister D
10-17-2015, 03:18 PM
Proving that even a stopped clock is occasionally correct.

You're both wrong, actually. I have no idea why Mac thinks she's a fascist but she's not. I do know why you think she's a fascist but you don't quite understand what corporatism means.

IMPress Polly
10-17-2015, 03:32 PM
OGIS wrote:
Since I, as a living animal, breath out carbon dioxide, were this to become law (and therefore precedent) can you guarantee that no future (presumably Republican) president would not extend the tax to include a tax on my breathing?

And what happens if I can't afford to pay the tax?

I can't guarantee your safety against anything that the Republican Party might do going forward. :wink:

Seriously though, you're not supposed to pay the tax. It's supposed to motivate you to switch to cleaner transportation and living. That's the whole point. It's not about raising revenue, but about combating global warming, and it's really the single most effective, most proven way of doing so. Think of it as the proverbial stick in a carrot and stick approach to getting the masses to convert to clean energy. If subsidizing the development of wind and solar power, which brings down its market price, is the carrot then the carbon tax is the stick. Both things are meant to work in tandem: the one thing brings the price of clean, renewable energy down while the other drives the price of fossil fuels up.


Peter wrote:
Bernie's tax rate on the rich wouldn't eliminate them. It would relocate them to other countries.

His protectionist trade policies might make it pretty tough for them to just up and leave and sell products back into this country.

OGIS
10-17-2015, 03:58 PM
Seriously though, you're not supposed to pay the tax. It's supposed to motivate you to switch to cleaner transportation and living. That's the whole point. It's not about raising revenue, but about combating global warming, and it's really the single most effective, most proven way of doing so. Think of it as the proverbial stick in a carrot and stick approach to getting the masses to convert to clean energy. If subsidizing the development of wind and solar power, which brings down its market price, is the carrot then the carbon tax is the stick. Both things are meant to work in tandem: the one thing brings the price of clean, renewable energy down while the other drives the price of fossil fuels up.

That is my point. Consider that a "scientific case" can be made that the aggregate exhalations of humankind increases the amount of carbon dioxide. Therefore, if you love Mother Gaia, Teh Ebil Hoomans must be taxed to offset their damage to the environment.

With as much junk science as there is, the above is a distinct possibility!

IMPress Polly
10-17-2015, 04:03 PM
OGIS wrote:
That is my point. Consider that a "scientific case" can be made that the aggregate exhalations of humankind increases the amount of carbon dioxide. Therefore, if you love Mother Gaia, Teh Ebil Hoomans must be taxed to offset their damage to the environment.

With as much junk science as there is, the above is a distinct possibility!

I hope you're just joking because if you're not then I have to conclude that you are a very paranoid individual.

Peter1469
10-17-2015, 05:03 PM
His protectionist trade policies might make it pretty tough for them to just up and leave and sell products back into this country.

They don't need to sell to the American market. If the plan is to take 90% of what the very wealthy make I suspect tax revenue will drop. Very few will stick around.