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View Full Version : Lack of science and sense in American ploicy



donttread
12-25-2015, 02:42 PM
I doubt there is anyone here who feels that either the "war on drugs" or "war on poverty" has been a success , while many of us feel they are abject failure.
More people are now living in poverty by far than before the" war on poverty" started and there is more availability of illicit drugs , to almost anyone, almost any time and almost anywhere than before the" war on drugs" began
While the efforts of the war on terror may have some support on the board, many of us look at it as an abject failure. Why? No lasting change in anywhere we've occupied and more, stronger terrorist than before the "war on terror " began.
The federal government chases bad policy with worse policy on a very regular basis.
For example Portugal and other countries have empirical evidence that decriminalization leads to less drug related death and damage. Real world evidence that we simply ignore as the people so associated with freedom built the largest prison industrial complex in the world. As stated earlier the evidence shows tat the "war on poverty " has also failed . And prior to the "war on terror" I don't remember terrorist groups strong enough to take and hold territory across several countries.
And yet despite all of that we continue to fight these "three wars" in essentially the same fashion that has failed for decades.
It doesn't seem like the government looks at real world evidence, empirical evidence or even common sense , all of which would of dictated major changes in policy in all of these areas.
Is it just these three areas where the government does not concern itself with irritating facts? Or is our entire country run in the most unscientific way possible? At this time in history how is it possible that the feds refuse to apply science to policy they spend our hard earned money on?

Mister D
12-25-2015, 03:13 PM
The war on poverty had some success. America's problem is that we import poverty from Latin America, Asia and the Caribbean.

donttread
12-25-2015, 03:57 PM
The war on poverty had some success. America's problem is that we import poverty from Latin America, Asia and the Caribbean.

Measurable success?

Peter1469
12-25-2015, 04:16 PM
Measurable success?

Poverty rates have remained constant since the war on poverty began. Factor out the under educated immigrants who have been welcomed here since then and you have a measurable statistic.

AeonPax
12-25-2015, 04:18 PM
I doubt there is anyone here who feels that either the "war on drugs" or "war on poverty" has been a success , while many of us feel they are abject failure. More people are now living in poverty by far than before the" war on poverty" started and there is more availability of illicit drugs , to almost anyone, almost any time and almost anywhere than before the" war on drugs" began While the efforts of the war on terror may have some support on the board, many of us look at it as an abject failure. Why? No lasting change in anywhere we've occupied and more, stronger terrorist than before the "war on terror " began.

The federal government chases bad policy with worse policy on a very regular basis. For example Portugal and other countries have empirical evidence that decriminalization leads to less drug related death and damage. Real world evidence that we simply ignore as the people so associated with freedom built the largest prison industrial complex in the world. As stated earlier the evidence shows tat the "war on poverty " has also failed . And prior to the "war on terror" I don't remember terrorist groups strong enough to take and hold territory across several countries.

And yet despite all of that we continue to fight these "three wars" in essentially the same fashion that has failed for decades. It doesn't seem like the government looks at real world evidence, empirical evidence or even common sense , all of which would of dictated major changes in policy in all of these areas.

Is it just these three areas where the government does not concern itself with irritating facts? Or is our entire country run in the most unscientific way possible? At this time in history how is it possible that the feds refuse to apply science to policy they spend our hard earned money on?
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Merry Christmas.

Matty
12-25-2015, 04:23 PM
You mis spelled Policy. :rollseyes:

donttread
12-25-2015, 04:28 PM
Poverty rates have remained constant since the war on poverty began. Factor out the under educated immigrants who have been welcomed here since then and you have a measurable statistic.

Interesting, but certainly not a success

donttread
12-25-2015, 04:28 PM
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Merry Christmas.

Back at ya.

Peter1469
12-25-2015, 04:32 PM
Interesting, but certainly not a success

In comparison to the money spent, I would agree. But I bet the numbers are significant.

Mister D
12-25-2015, 05:49 PM
Measurable success?

Like Peter said, what effect do you think the legion of uneducated, unskilled poor people we've allowed into the country has had on the poverty rate?

donttread
12-26-2015, 05:50 PM
Like Peter said, what effect do you think the legion of uneducated, unskilled poor people we've allowed into the country has had on the poverty rate?

I think the poverty rate is up in general in black and lily white neighborhoods as well

Mister D
12-26-2015, 05:53 PM
I think the poverty rate is up in general in black and lily white neighborhoods as well

You didn't answer my question. What effect do you think it has?

donttread
12-26-2015, 06:07 PM
You didn't answer my question. What effect do you think it has?

It reduces labor cost, puts other people out of work and does cost social dollars. I'm not in favor of illegal immigration

Mister D
12-26-2015, 06:11 PM
It reduces labor cost, puts other people out of work and does cost social dollars. I'm not in favor of illegal immigration

I'm not talking about illegal immigration. You didn't answer my question and I think we both know it's because without this migration the War on Poverty would have met with considerable success.

Dr. Who
12-26-2015, 06:56 PM
I'm not talking about illegal immigration. You didn't answer my question and I think we both know it's because without this migration the War on Poverty would have met with considerable success.
You have two kinds of immigration - family unification and people being brought in because business is looking for workers. The latter are taking jobs that are otherwise going unfilled. Absent immigrants, there would be far fewer people working in nursing homes, hotels/motel housekeeping or as domestic staff. There would also be far fewer convenience stores or other small neighborhood businesses. There would be hardly any cab drivers and a shortage of truckers. In reality, these immigrants are not stealing any jobs at all, they are filling jobs that Americans don't want. On the more educated end, they are being brought in by businesses for specific skill sets.

decedent
12-26-2015, 07:00 PM
Science is for sissies who care about facts and "progress". I go with my gut and look where that got me.

Mister D
12-26-2015, 07:00 PM
You have two kinds of immigration - family unification and people being brought in because business is looking for workers. The latter are taking jobs that are otherwise going unfilled. Absent immigrants, there would be far fewer people working in nursing homes, hotels/motel housekeeping or as domestic staff. There would also be far fewer convenience stores or other small neighborhood businesses. There would be hardly any cab drivers and a shortage of truckers. In reality, these immigrants are not stealing any jobs at all, they are filling jobs that Americans don't want. On the more educated end, they are being brought in by businesses for specific skill sets.

Fewer 7-11s! :shocked:

While I disagree with much of this it's not relevant. The point is that the mass migration of poor, uneducated and unskilled people has quite obviously had an impact on the poverty rate.

Dr. Who
12-26-2015, 07:19 PM
Fewer 7-11s! :shocked:

While I disagree with much of this it's not relevant. The point is that the mass migration of poor, uneducated and unskilled people has quite obviously had an impact on the poverty rate.
In actuality, often the people taking those low paying jobs may well have an education, but their credentials don't necessarily have standing in America. Nevertheless, they are workers, not welfare recipients. I don't know how many times I've talked to cab drivers that were architects and engineers from other countries. I wouldn't put down those people who run the 7-11s either. They put their kids through school to become future doctors, dentists and lawyers. The Asian merchant class are traditionally one of the most ubiquitous migrant peoples all around the world.

Peter1469
12-26-2015, 07:55 PM
If our social welfare payments were not a hammock, those jobs Dr. Who mentioned would be taken by Americans.

Mister D
12-26-2015, 10:20 PM
In actuality, often the people taking those low paying jobs may well have an education, but their credentials don't necessarily have standing in America. Nevertheless, they are workers, not welfare recipients. I don't know how many times I've talked to cab drivers that were architects and engineers from other countries. I wouldn't put down those people who run the 7-11s either. They put their kids through school to become future doctors, dentists and lawyers. The Asian merchant class are traditionally one of the most ubiquitous migrant peoples all around the world.

I'm not putting anyone down. We need to be more rational about immigration and jettison this sentimentalism.

Mister D
12-26-2015, 10:22 PM
If our social welfare payments were not a hammock, those jobs Dr. Who mentioned would be taken by Americans.

And we also need to jettison this bit of economic nonsense that have certain jobs an inherent wage. The jobsunskilled aliens take pay what they do because there is an army of immigrant labor.

donttread
12-27-2015, 07:43 AM
I'm not talking about illegal immigration. You didn't answer my question and I think we both know it's because without this migration the War on Poverty would have met with considerable success.

If your assertion is true then their should be some evidence of poverty rates decreasing in non- immigrant groups. Does such evidence exist?

donttread
12-27-2015, 07:46 AM
So it would appear the only area of disagreement with my OP is in "War on Poverty" area?

Ransom
12-27-2015, 08:36 AM
So it would appear the only area of disagreement with my OP is in "War on Poverty" area?

Pat on the back, donttread, gold star.

Fagan_the_Pagan
12-28-2015, 11:52 PM
The problem with a "War on Terror" is that you can't fight fear with guns. Terrorists also kill an insignificant number of Americans, and yet we spend over half our discretionary budget on chasing them. A stupid and wasteful policy.

The problem with the "War on Drugs" is it makes people less safe, not more, and it wastes billions, and leads to mass incarcerations. Also, a lot of the reason why Marijuana was outlawed in the first place was a racist fear that it would make white women want to have sex with black men. The movie Reefer Madness also played a role. The illegal status of Marijuana is based on a lot of misinformation and remains illegal because people hear "illegal drugs" and shut off their brains.

I don't know enough about the War on Poverty as a policy to comment on it.