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View Full Version : When did we become a nation of control freaks?



donttread
12-26-2015, 12:11 PM
Here in the "land of the used to be free" we are the most incarcerated society on earth. Why? Mostly because we want to tell everyone which drugs are and are not acceptable to use based upon politics , emotion and control instead of science
But we don't stop there. Many want to take our guns away. Add to that the suprisingly large number of people that want to tell their neighbors when they must cut their grass or what they can and cannot build on their own property and you have the fabric of a what is increasingly becoming control freak central

Bo-4
12-26-2015, 12:30 PM
Here in the "land of the used to be free" we are the most incarcerated society on earth. Why? Mostly because we want to tell everyone which drugs are and are not acceptable to use based upon politics , emotion and control instead of science
But we don't stop there. Many want to take our guns away. Add to that the suprisingly large number of people that want to tell their neighbors when they must cut their grass or what they can and cannot build on their own property and you have the fabric of a what is increasingly becoming control freak central

Well, the part about drugs was good and then you went south.

A tiny TINY fringe element actually wants to "take your guns away".

If my next door neighbor brings down my property value because their lawn is two feet tall, looks like a junkyard and then wants to add a second story that blocks my lake view?

Damn straight i'm gonna say something.

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 12:32 PM
Here in the "land of the used to be free" we are the most incarcerated society on earth. Why? Mostly because we want to tell everyone which drugs are and are not acceptable to use based upon politics , emotion and control instead of science
But we don't stop there. Many want to take our guns away. Add to that the suprisingly large number of people that want to tell their neighbors when they must cut their grass or what they can and cannot build on their own property and you have the fabric of a what is increasingly becoming control freak central

The notion that anarchy is a good idea and advances society can only be expressed in a vacuum bereft of historic reality while wallowing in blissful denial and ignorance.

The black community has been ravaged by drugs and crime; yet you wish to make it penalty free. Dumb, really, really dumb.

Mister D
12-26-2015, 12:32 PM
Well, the part about drugs was good and then you went south.

A tiny TINY fringe element actually wants to "take your guns away".

If my next door neighbor brings down my property value because their lawn is two feet tall, looks like a junkyard and then wants to add a second story that blocks my lake view?

Damn straight i'm gonna say something.

You started out poorly because we all know there is a strong movement to make American gun laws like those of England, for example.

Totally agree on the 'radical individualist' assholes who won't cut their grass or shovel the sidewalk because...liberty and stuff.

JVV
12-26-2015, 12:33 PM
Here, have a 16 oz soda.

But not 24.

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:05 PM
Well, the part about drugs was good and then you went south.

A tiny TINY fringe element actually wants to "take your guns away".

If my next door neighbor brings down my property value because their lawn is two feet tall, looks like a junkyard and then wants to add a second story that blocks my lake view?

Damn straight i'm gonna say something.

Your property values are your problem, not his. Why? Because it's your property and his is his. Stop accepting the control freak creed

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:06 PM
Your property values are your problem, not his. Why? Because it's your property and his is his. Stop accepting the control freak creed

Fascinating; someone who hasn't got the slightest clue of how property values are determined.

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:07 PM
The notion that anarchy is a good idea and advances society can only be expressed in a vacuum bereft of historic reality while wallowing in blissful denial and ignorance.

The black community has been ravaged by drugs and crime; yet you wish to make it penalty free. Dumb, really, really dumb.

The black community has been ravage by drugs how? Legal records? Overdoses? Those are the products of prohibition. But don't take my word for it, look at the success Portugal has had with decriminalization

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:08 PM
Fascinating; someone who hasn't got the slightest clue of how property values are determined.

I know how they are determined but that doesn't give some assholes to extend their standards to someone else and their property.

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:10 PM
You started out poorly because we all know there is a strong movement to make American gun laws like those of England, for example.

Totally agree on the 'radical individualist' assholes who won't cut their grass or shovel the sidewalk because...liberty and stuff.

Aren't you the same poster who wants to do away with individualism? Figures

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:11 PM
The post on this thread clearly point out how both liberals and conservatives are part of the control freak movement

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:11 PM
The black community has been ravage by drugs how? Legal records? Overdoses? Those are the products of prohibition. But don't take my word for it, look at the success Portugal has had with decriminalization

^Damned funny BS.

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:12 PM
I know how they are determined but that doesn't give some $#@!s to extend their standards to someone else and their property.

Clearly you don't know or you wouldn't make such asinine comments about it.

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:13 PM
^Damned funny BS.

No, again check out Portgols real world success with decriminalization

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:13 PM
The post on this thread clearly point out how both liberals and conservatives are part of the control freak movement

No; what they point out is your utter ignorance about reality, the drug epidemic and property values.

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:13 PM
No, again check out Portgols real world success with decriminalization

Link me up!!

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:17 PM
Clearly you don't know or you wouldn't make such asinine comments about it.

So your "right " to a higher property value, higher taxes and bragging rights outweigh your neighbor's right to manage his property as he sees fit? Under what world does that make sense. It's simply mob rule by fucking sheep

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:17 PM
Link me up!!


Google it,much easier

Tahuyaman
12-26-2015, 01:19 PM
Well, the part about drugs was good and then you went south.

A tiny TINY fringe element actually wants to "take your guns away".

If my next door neighbor brings down my property value because their lawn is two feet tall, looks like a junkyard and then wants to add a second story that blocks my lake view?

Damn straight i'm gonna say something.

move......

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:19 PM
No; what they point out is your utter ignorance about reality, the drug epidemic and property values.

So it is your position that telling people what they can and cannot put into their bodies and how the MUST keep their lawn is not controlling?

domer76
12-26-2015, 01:21 PM
Your property values are your problem, not his. Why? Because it's your property and his is his. Stop accepting the control freak creed

I'm moving my pig farm next door to yours. Provide your address please

Tahuyaman
12-26-2015, 01:24 PM
No, again check out Portgols real world success with decriminalization


Im assuming you meant Portugal.

I dont have faith that our government could suddenly do something right. The lit's of things our government could fuck up is endless.

zelmo1234
12-26-2015, 01:30 PM
We became a nations of control Freaks, not because of the lust for power, but because the people decided they would give that power to the control freaks.

When we became a people that did not take responsibility for our own actions, we opened the door for the Control freaks.

So if you want to put drugs in your body GREAT. but then you wanted others to pay for it through the social welfare programs, and that gave them the control they needed to restrict your freedom

There reason that we have become regulation nation is because the people have freely submitted to the powers that be.

In the colonies the king decided to raise the taxes on tea, and the people filled that harbor with the stuff.

In NYC the mayor said you can't have a large soda and the people did nothing. What do you think would have happened if the people were to buy every soda in down and fill every fountain, and fish tank on public property with soda.

They would have receded the law, that is what would have happened.

So when did we become a nation of control freaks? When the people allowed it to happen.

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:31 PM
I'm moving my pig farm next door to yours. Provide your address please

I never said zoning didn't have some purpose, particularly in defining business vs. residential neighborhoods. Having said that if my neighbor wants to raise a few pigs I have no issue with that and would probably purchase some of the pork

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:34 PM
Im assuming you meant Portugal.

I dont have faith that our government could suddenly do something right. The lit's of things our government could fuck up is endless.

Well then by definition they are already fucking up prohibition

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:36 PM
We became a nations of control Freaks, not because of the lust for power, but because the people decided they would give that power to the control freaks.

When we became a people that did not take responsibility for our own actions, we opened the door for the Control freaks.

So if you want to put drugs in your body GREAT. but then you wanted others to pay for it through the social welfare programs, and that gave them the control they needed to restrict your freedom

There reason that we have become regulation nation is because the people have freely submitted to the powers that be.

In the colonies the king decided to raise the taxes on tea, and the people filled that harbor with the stuff.

In NYC the mayor said you can't have a large soda and the people did nothing. What do you think would have happened if the people were to buy every soda in down and fill every fountain, and fish tank on public property with soda.

They would have receded the law, that is what would have happened.

So when did we become a nation of control freaks? When the people allowed it to happen.

That's a "wrap"; can't put it much better than this.

donttread
12-26-2015, 01:36 PM
We became a nations of control Freaks, not because of the lust for power, but because the people decided they would give that power to the control freaks.

When we became a people that did not take responsibility for our own actions, we opened the door for the Control freaks.

So if you want to put drugs in your body GREAT. but then you wanted others to pay for it through the social welfare programs, and that gave them the control they needed to restrict your freedom

There reason that we have become regulation nation is because the people have freely submitted to the powers that be.

In the colonies the king decided to raise the taxes on tea, and the people filled that harbor with the stuff.

In NYC the mayor said you can't have a large soda and the people did nothing. What do you think would have happened if the people were to buy every soda in down and fill every fountain, and fish tank on public property with soda.

They would have receded the law, that is what would have happened.

So when did we become a nation of control freaks? When the people allowed it to happen.

So referring to paragraph 3, why haven't users of alcohol and tobacco ( the two drugs that impact healthcare and other cost the most) given up control. ?

Truth Detector
12-26-2015, 01:37 PM
I never said zoning didn't have some purpose, particularly in defining business vs. residential neighborhoods. Having said that if my neighbor wants to raise a few pigs I have no issue with that and would probably purchase some of the pork

You most certainly would when the stench and noise becomes overwhelming.

domer76
12-26-2015, 01:53 PM
We became a nations of control Freaks, not because of the lust for power, but because the people decided they would give that power to the control freaks.

When we became a people that did not take responsibility for our own actions, we opened the door for the Control freaks.

So if you want to put drugs in your body GREAT. but then you wanted others to pay for it through the social welfare programs, and that gave them the control they needed to restrict your freedom

There reason that we have become regulation nation is because the people have freely submitted to the powers that be.

In the colonies the king decided to raise the taxes on tea, and the people filled that harbor with the stuff.

In NYC the mayor said you can't have a large soda and the people did nothing. What do you think would have happened if the people were to buy every soda in down and fill every fountain, and fish tank on public property with soda.

They would have receded the law, that is what would have happened.

So when did we become a nation of control freaks? When the people allowed it to happen.

The reason we have regulations is because of those who would fuck their own grandmother for a buck.

I find it laughable hypocrisy that a Christian, who would deny marriage equality to others, would talk about control.

zelmo1234
12-26-2015, 01:54 PM
So referring to paragraph 3, why haven't users of alcohol and tobacco ( the two drugs that impact healthcare and other cost the most) given up control. ?

Because they fought for it. I hate the fact that they can abuse the system, but it makes sick that they can use taxpayer funds to support their habits. Shouldn't be that way. If they want to screw up their lives, they should pay for it.

domer76
12-26-2015, 01:55 PM
I never said zoning didn't have some purpose, particularly in defining business vs. residential neighborhoods. Having said that if my neighbor wants to raise a few pigs I have no issue with that and would probably purchase some of the pork

When does a few become too many, so that you finally draw the line on your live and let live thing?

Bo-4
12-26-2015, 02:05 PM
You started out poorly because we all know there is a strong movement to make American gun laws like those of England, for example.

Totally agree on the 'radical individualist' assholes who won't cut their grass or shovel the sidewalk because...liberty and stuff.

Nobody with a lick of sense thinks we could ever be like England when there's more than one gun here for every man, woman and infant.

I'm simply for mandatory safety training and licensing similar to driving a car. And considering that our auto fatality rates have dropped dramatically, clearly the safety regs, licensing, testing etc have worked.

I'd also support a buy-back program similar to Australia's and universal BG (criminal and mental) checks.

You finished nicely .. if you want to live on a few acres, grow your grass 2 feet tall and keep several junk cars that haven't been driven in years on your front lawn - i could care less.

That crap doesn't fly in an urban area with small lots and 10-15' feet between homes. That's why we have Homeowner's Associations and code enforcement.

Bo-4
12-26-2015, 02:14 PM
So your "right " to a higher property value, higher taxes and bragging rights outweigh your neighbor's right to manage his property as he sees fit? Under what world does that make sense. It's simply mob rule by fucking sheep

Oh fer fuck ... No you do NOT have a right to make my property unsellable because you choose to live like a filthy hillbilly with zero pride.

http://aussalorens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/woods-20.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3076/2319555699_bc9caea974.jpg

Bo-4
12-26-2015, 02:16 PM
move......

I don't wanna live next door to either donttread OR you!

Chris
12-26-2015, 02:20 PM
Rejecting control freaks--as I understand it, those who use political means to control others, is not abandoning the social order to chaos but looking to cooperation for solution. IOW, one can join with neighbors to set up a homeowner's association to protect property from pig farmers moving in.

Chris
12-26-2015, 02:31 PM
We became a nations of control Freaks, not because of the lust for power, but because the people decided they would give that power to the control freaks.

When we became a people that did not take responsibility for our own actions, we opened the door for the Control freaks.

So if you want to put drugs in your body GREAT. but then you wanted others to pay for it through the social welfare programs, and that gave them the control they needed to restrict your freedom

There reason that we have become regulation nation is because the people have freely submitted to the powers that be.

In the colonies the king decided to raise the taxes on tea, and the people filled that harbor with the stuff.

In NYC the mayor said you can't have a large soda and the people did nothing. What do you think would have happened if the people were to buy every soda in down and fill every fountain, and fish tank on public property with soda.

They would have receded the law, that is what would have happened.

So when did we become a nation of control freaks? When the people allowed it to happen.


Look at the Constitution. It was written to control the government. Today it's used to control the people. The Constitution has been inverted, the world upsidedown.

I think this started happening with the rise of Progressivism at the turn of the century where some though you could use reason to solve problems and then use politics to enforce those solutions. The turning point was perhaps Hoover and FDR, when conservatism (Buckley, Kirk, others) arose to join the old Right (Taft, Garrett, Flynn, Chodorov, Read, etc.) in resistance to it. As Buckley said though "A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it."

Bo-4
12-26-2015, 02:53 PM
Rejecting control freaks--as I understand it, those who use political means to control others, is not abandoning the social order to chaos but looking to cooperation for solution. IOW, one can join with neighbors to set up a homeowner's association to protect property from pig farmers moving in.

Having served on our HOA board for several years i can attest to their effectiveness. We don't run ours like tyrants and our CC&R's are completely reasonable. A property management company is also good because they (to a large extent) eliminate infighting and misunderstandings between neighbors.

We also have the Neighborhood Watch Program and get together for a fun annual picnic each fall with a separate annual meeting. Everyone looks out for everyone and helps out where they see a need. Makes for close-knit neighbors.

So all that is good, but additionally our city has a "code enforcement" staff. They come in SUPER-handy when people don't bother listening to letters from prop management and such. Don't pay your dues, or mow your lawn or leave junk cars either in the street or property or have too many loud parties - the problems are fixed PRONTO without having to call the cops or lien someone's property.

Chris
12-26-2015, 02:56 PM
Having served on our HOA board for several years i can attest to their effectiveness. We don't run ours like tyrants and our CC&R's are completely reasonable. A property management company is also good because they (to a large extent) eliminate infighting and misunderstandings between neighbors.

We also have the Neighborhood Watch Program and get together for a fun annual picnic each fall with a separate annual meeting. Everyone looks out for everyone and helps out where they see a need. Makes for close-knit neighbors.

So all that is good, but additionally our city has a "code enforcement" staff. They come in SUPER-handy when people don't bother listening to letters from prop management and such. Don't pay your dues, or mow your lawn or leave junk cars either in the street or property or have too many loud parties - the problems are fixed PRONTO without having to call the cops or lien someone's property.

Watches are good too for self-regulation.

When it comes to the government, even at the city level, you risk corruption, regulations written to favor more established or larger or wealthier companies over small, like the Taxi medallion system. Not saying it's all corrupt, but the risk is there.

domer76
12-26-2015, 03:10 PM
Rejecting control freaks--as I understand it, those who use political means to control others, is not abandoning the social order to chaos but looking to cooperation for solution. IOW, one can join with neighbors to set up a homeowner's association to protect property from pig farmers moving in.

Where do they get enforcement authority?

Chris
12-26-2015, 03:14 PM
Where do they get enforcement authority?

Same place the government does, the people themselves.

donttread
12-26-2015, 03:16 PM
^Damned funny BS.

Poor rebuttal even by your standards

donttread
12-26-2015, 03:18 PM
When does a few become too many, so that you finally draw the line on your live and let live thing?

Serious infringement on my every day life do to smell, traffic etc. Certainly not when to mow the fucking yard

donttread
12-26-2015, 03:20 PM
I don't wanna live next door to either donttread OR you!

Good you wouldn't fit in here with our small town individualism and all

domer76
12-26-2015, 03:48 PM
Same place the government does, the people themselves.

I bought the property next door to you last month. Today, I'm moving in 500 pigs. What are you going to do about it?

domer76
12-26-2015, 03:57 PM
Serious infringement on my every day life do to smell, traffic etc. Certainly not when to mow the fucking yard

Your weed-laden POS lawn lowers my property values and that's OK, but my pigs lower yours and that's not. Interesting.

Chris
12-26-2015, 03:59 PM
I bought the property next door to you last month. Today, I'm moving in 500 pigs. What are you going to do about it?

Home Owners Association wouldn't let your stink in the neighborhood. When we move in we must first sign a HOA agreement or else go elsewhere.

texan
12-26-2015, 04:19 PM
Here in the "land of the used to be free" we are the most incarcerated society on earth. Why? Mostly because we want to tell everyone which drugs are and are not acceptable to use based upon politics , emotion and control instead of science
But we don't stop there. Many want to take our guns away. Add to that the suprisingly large number of people that want to tell their neighbors when they must cut their grass or what they can and cannot build on their own property and you have the fabric of a what is increasingly becoming control freak central

The day that mostly the dem party turned (republicans not completely innocent) and started holding "federal money" unless every state did what they said everywhere. If you as a voter supported any of that you contributed to the controlling class. Koch said in an interview he couldn't support Hillary way back when she rammed HC down everyone's throats stating the elite class in wash dc could make better buying decisions than families. same mentality, they always go too far and it hurts teh middle class whole they point at the rich......Never hurts the rich.

texan
12-26-2015, 04:20 PM
For the record I don;t think the feds should be able to hold your road money so you conform on education for example. Organized crime!

domer76
12-26-2015, 04:33 PM
Home Owners Association wouldn't let your stink in the neighborhood. When we move in we must first sign a HOA agreement or else go elsewhere.

I signed it, then ignored it. What are you and your buddies going to do about it?

Chris
12-26-2015, 04:35 PM
I signed it, then ignored it. What are you and your buddies going to do about it?

Then you'd be kicked out. Remember, you signed a binding contract and broke it.

domer76
12-26-2015, 04:44 PM
Then you'd be kicked out. Remember, you signed a binding contract and broke it.

You're going to physically remove me? How are you going to accomplish that?

Chris
12-26-2015, 04:53 PM
You're going to physically remove me? How are you going to accomplish that?

Bulldozers if you're bullheaded, lol. The HOA contract you sign will stipulate exactly how we remove you, possibly confiscate your property, and so on.

What do you think you can do to stop us?

domer76
12-26-2015, 05:22 PM
Bulldozers if you're bullheaded, lol. The HOA contract you sign will stipulate exactly how we remove you, possibly confiscate your property, and so on.

What do you think you can do to stop us?

Tresspassing is your answer? I do believe I have that "natural right" to defend myself, don't I?

How are you going to confiscate something that is not yours?

donttread
12-26-2015, 05:23 PM
I bought the property next door to you last month. Today, I'm moving in 500 pigs. What are you going to do about it?

Have you charged with animal cruelty as the property next door isn't nearly large enough for 500 pigs

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:24 PM
Tresspassing is your answer? I do believe I have that "natural right" to defend myself, don't I?

How are you going to confiscate something that is not yours?

Again, the contract will determine all that. By signing it you have given up certain rights and perhaps even your property to the security of the contract.

Again, what will you do to stop us from enforcing a contract your voluntarily agreed to abide by?

donttread
12-26-2015, 05:28 PM
Tresspassing is your answer? I do believe I have that "natural right" to defend myself, don't I?

How are you going to confiscate something that is not yours?

I don't care for HOA's, who are they to make all these rules? Further will they enventually limit people's choices to live in non- HOA property.

donttread
12-26-2015, 05:29 PM
Your weed-laden POS lawn lowers my property values and that's OK, but my pigs lower yours and that's not. Interesting.

Your pigs should be in a business district since you have 500 of them but my grass poses no serious imparment to your life

Mac-7
12-26-2015, 05:32 PM
If derelect druggies stop trying to control my pocketbook through the government welfare system I would be willing to butt out of their drug addiction.

donttread
12-26-2015, 05:32 PM
Again, the contract will determine all that. By signing it you have given up certain rights and perhaps even your property to the security of the contract.

Again, what will you do to stop us from enforcing a contract your voluntarily agreed to abide by?

What happens when the HOA changes the rules after you sign. ? I pity the fool that tells me what colors are acceptible to paint my house

domer76
12-26-2015, 05:35 PM
Again, the contract will determine all that. By signing it you have given up certain rights and perhaps even your property to the security of the contract.

Again, what will you do to stop us from enforcing a contract your voluntarily agreed to abide by?

I now unvolunteer. I am not going to give up my "natural" property rights. After all, "natural rights" cannot be taken away, can they? How are you going to enforce your bogus contract?

Mac-7
12-26-2015, 05:35 PM
What happens when the HOA changes the rules after you sign. ? I pity the fool that tells me what colors are acceptible to paint my house

They cant change the rules without a majority vote of the members of the HOA.

But that usually not too difficult to do so you could get railroaded legally and all within the rules.

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:36 PM
I don't care for HOA's, who are they to make all these rules? Further will they enventually limit people's choices to live in non- HOA property.

HOAs are, or ought to be, the people who live in them. The one I live in, or with, protects property values with various agreed upon rules. But the people in them can change them: Ours used to demand grass grown across the front yards broken only by driveways. We have recently changed that rule to allow for xeriscaping (I no longer have any grass!!).

If the HOA rules became too onerous, I would leave.

You need not join, but live a few miles away free of them.


Note, I raise HOAs as only an example of how people can cooperate together to form ordered societies without a domineering government making your choices for you.

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:38 PM
I now unvolunteer. I am not going to give up my "natural" property rights. After all, "natural rights" cannot be taken away, can they? How are you going to enforce your bogus contract?

Then you break contract and suffer the penalties you voluntarily agreed to. You have your right, but you surrendered protections.

How can a contract be bogus if all parties voluntarily agree to it? You're no longer making sense.

PolWatch
12-26-2015, 05:40 PM
Simple solution....buy property in an area without rules. There are areas in the county that look like a third world nation for those who want to live that way. People who purchase property in an area with rules do so because they want the protection the rules provide. Its everyone's right to choose where/how to live. I live in an area with zoning laws because that is what I wanted. I pay taxes & fees to support those laws & pay for the enforcement officers. Why should I have to deal with someone who wants to live in a junkyard?

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:41 PM
What happens when the HOA changes the rules after you sign. ? I pity the fool that tells me what colors are acceptible to paint my house

Then you're free to leave. But if you're at all concerned with this you would not join.

Our HOA only requires neighboring houses be different colors or shades at least.

To be honest I've never read the HOA rules, except for landscaping, because they are fairly common sensical.

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:45 PM
Simple solution....buy property in an area without rules. There are areas in the county that look like a third world nation for those who want to live that way. People who purchase property in an area with rules do so because they want the protection the rules provide. Its everyone's right to choose where/how to live. I live in an area with zoning laws because that is what I wanted. I pay taxes & fees to support those laws & pay for the enforcement officers. Why should I have to deal with someone who wants to live in a junkyard?

Exactly. Just a miles or so outside from where we are are entire communities without HOAs. The lots are big and widely separated.

The point to me of all this and the OP is we should be free to choose how w live and not have others dictate it, but, if we commit to a certain lifestyle, we are responsible to abide by the choices we make,

PolWatch
12-26-2015, 05:48 PM
I don't think property values & HOA's really qualify as being part of a control freak nation. Those are personal choices....not situations forced on the unwilling. I do agree that some people attempt to force their beliefs on others by passing restrictive laws but I don't think the HOA's etc fall under that description.

domer76
12-26-2015, 05:50 PM
Then you break contract and suffer the penalties you voluntarily agreed to. You have your right, but you surrendered protections.

How can a contract be bogus if all parties voluntarily agree to it? You're no longer making sense.

"Natural rights" cannot be taken away. Who are you going to get to enforce the penalties?

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:50 PM
I don't think property values & HOA's really qualify as being part of a control freak nation. Those are personal choices....not situations forced on the unwilling. I do agree that some people attempt to force their beliefs on others by passing restrictive laws but I don't think the HOA's etc fall under that description.

That's true, and HOAs were just one example of people cooperating by choice.

domer76
12-26-2015, 05:51 PM
HOAs are, or ought to be, the people who live in them. The one I live in, or with, protects property values with various agreed upon rules. But the people in them can change them: Ours used to demand grass grown across the front yards broken only by driveways. We have recently changed that rule to allow for xeriscaping (I no longer have any grass!!).

If the HOA rules became too onerous, I would leave.

You need not join, but live a few miles away free of them.


Note, I raise HOAs as only an example of how people can cooperate together to form ordered societies without a domineering government making your choices for you.

Your HOA is a form of government whether you admit it or not.

donttread
12-26-2015, 05:55 PM
HOAs are, or ought to be, the people who live in them. The one I live in, or with, protects property values with various agreed upon rules. But the people in them can change them: Ours used to demand grass grown across the front yards broken only by driveways. We have recently changed that rule to allow for xeriscaping (I no longer have any grass!!).

If the HOA rules became too onerous, I would leave.

You need not join, but live a few miles away free of them.


Note, I raise HOAs as only an example of how people can cooperate together to form ordered societies without a domineering government making your choices for you.

I guess if this is a project on HOA owned property. Otherwise they should have no right to supercede building codes and regulations

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:57 PM
Your HOA is a form of government whether you admit it or not.

Of course it is. But it is not a government, not the state. It is instead self-government.

Chris
12-26-2015, 05:58 PM
I guess if this is a project on HOA owned property. Otherwise they should have no right to supercede building codes and regulations

I don't think a HOA should be imposed on an existing community, if that's what you mean.

domer76
12-26-2015, 06:05 PM
Of course it is. But it is not a government, not the state. It is instead self-government.

A pure democracy, you say?

But again, you dodge the question. Who are you going to turn to, to enforce the codified rules of the HOA?

domer76
12-26-2015, 06:10 PM
Of course it is. But it is not a government, not the state. It is instead self-government.

Officials we elect ourselves is not self-government?

Again, whether you like it or not, your HOA is nothing more than a down-sized version of the state. And one that relies on the state for any enforcement.

Chris
12-26-2015, 06:15 PM
Officials we elect ourselves is not self-government?

Again, whether you like it or not, your HOA is nothing more than a down-sized version of the state. And one that relies on the state for any enforcement.

No, not the same. Similar, not the same. For example, while the government can make rules, the HOA management cannot itself do that, only the members can. Another example, the government can by eminent domain take your property to build what it considers important like an auto manufacturing plant, the HOA, not even the members can do that.

Chris
12-26-2015, 06:17 PM
A pure democracy, you say?

But again, you dodge the question. Who are you going to turn to, to enforce the codified rules of the HOA?

And you play games. Your questions are answered.

No, not a pure democracy. Members are free to leave. And, remember, you join by free choice and signing contract.

Also, HOA us just an example of how people can cooperate in self-government.

domer76
12-26-2015, 06:18 PM
No, not the same. Similar, not the same. For example, while the government can make rules, the HOA management cannot itself do that, only the members can. Another example, the government can by eminent domain take your property to build what it considers important like an auto manufacturing plant, the HOA, not even the members can do that.

You just told me the HOA was going to confiscate my property for not following the codified rules.

But, I see you are an advocate of pure democracy. The Founding Fathers are disappointed in you.

zelmo1234
12-26-2015, 06:22 PM
Oh fer $#@! ... No you do NOT have a right to make my property unsellable because you choose to live like a filthy hillbilly with zero pride.

http://aussalorens.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/woods-20.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3076/2319555699_bc9caea974.jpg

Where did you get the photos' of Del's House???? You should not post those on the Forum.

donttread
12-26-2015, 06:24 PM
I don't think a HOA should be imposed on an existing community, if that's what you mean.

If the HOA didn't orginally own the property I question their authority to require more and the code does

Chris
12-26-2015, 06:30 PM
If the HOA didn't orginally own the property I question their authority to require more and the code does

True. A ways back I knew a woman at work who complained about her HOA making her do things she didn't want to. She complained she'd lived there forever, what right did they have. When I found out the HOA was recently formed and their were no contracts, I explained she could just ignore, and the only price to pay would be dealing with neighbors. She ignored them and nothing happened. Without contract there's no binding agreement.

Tahuyaman
12-26-2015, 06:30 PM
I don't wanna live next door to either donttread OR you!


you'd need to set your sights a little lower than living next to me. Homes in my area don't have wheels.

Chris
12-26-2015, 06:32 PM
You just told me the HOA was going to confiscate my property for not following the codified rules.

But, I see you are an advocate of pure democracy. The Founding Fathers are disappointed in you.


I told you that would probably be part of the contract you agreed to.

Again, it is not a pure democracy.


And I see once again you have absolutely no interest in discussing and exploring a topic, only fault finding others with made up nonsense is the game you play. Pathetic.

domer76
12-26-2015, 06:40 PM
I told you that would probably be part of the contract you agreed to.

Again, it is not a pure democracy.


And I see once again you have absolutely no interest in discussing and exploring a topic, only fault finding others with made up nonsense is the game you play. Pathetic.

I'll tell you what's pathetic. It's that you don't even recognize that I'm playing your game.

If the members vote on the rules, it IS a pure democracy. What else would it be?

What is laughable about this whole scenario, and for once you are dealing out of reality, is that you're defending this little quasi-government, one that would deprive me of certain "natural rights", when you chronically rail against codified law and are the champion of some vague natural right that can't be taken away. Your little HOA is no different and needs that codified law for enforcement of its own rules.

Chris
12-26-2015, 07:39 PM
I'll tell you what's pathetic. It's that you don't even recognize that I'm playing your game.

If the members vote on the rules, it IS a pure democracy. What else would it be?

What is laughable about this whole scenario, and for once you are dealing out of reality, is that you're defending this little quasi-government, one that would deprive me of certain "natural rights", when you chronically rail against codified law and are the champion of some vague natural right that can't be taken away. Your little HOA is no different and needs that codified law for enforcement of its own rules.

So I was right, you play games.

It's government but not a government. There are similarities, sure, but there are differences. The government is an aggressor, it initiates violence from taking property to starting wars. HOAs are not aggressors but entirely voluntary, same as a club, a country club, a farmers coop.

What's laughable is from laughable on you're just making up nonsense to laugh at. You're not laughing at what I've posted but what you just made up.

But that's the game you play. Think anyone buys it?

domer76
12-26-2015, 07:47 PM
So I was right, you play games.

It's government but not a government. There are similarities, sure, but there are differences. The government is an aggressor, it initiates violence from taking property to starting wars. HOAs are not aggressors but entirely voluntary, same as a club, a country club, a farmers coop.

What's laughable is from laughable on you're just making up nonsense to laugh at. You're not laughing at what I've posted but what you just made up.

But that's the game you play. Think anyone buys it?


lol

I'm playing YOUR game, and no, nobody buys it.

Chris
12-26-2015, 08:02 PM
lol

I'm playing YOUR game, and no, nobody buys it.

Right, nobody buys your game.

And now you forgot to even attempt to argue the topic. The government is an aggressor, an initializer of force, HOA, clubs, cops are not, they are cooperate forms of social order.

Peter1469
12-26-2015, 08:39 PM
Bulldozers if you're bullheaded, lol. The HOA contract you sign will stipulate exactly how we remove you, possibly confiscate your property, and so on.

What do you think you can do to stop us?

Most HOA agreements have enforcement clauses and the homeowner who causes the HOA to enforce the agreement is contract bound to pay the attorney's fees and court costs if the the noncompliant owner loses. So long as the HOA is following its own rules, they typically win in court (or arbitration).

Peter1469
12-26-2015, 08:41 PM
I now unvolunteer. I am not going to give up my "natural" property rights. After all, "natural rights" cannot be taken away, can they? How are you going to enforce your bogus contract?

Natural rights have been ignored a lot in history. Ask the Jews.

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 09:25 AM
you'd need to set your sights a little lower than living next to me. Homes in my area don't have wheels.

Are they a bit more like this? Well, at least y'all keep ya yard decent! :D

http://server1.decorcamp.com/images/www.cyclefish.com/uploads_forum/948/133803/front-porch-ideas-for-mobile-homes-570.jpg

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 09:26 AM
Good you wouldn't fit in here with our small town individualism and all

Just mow yer damned lawn ;-)

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 09:37 AM
Watches are good too for self-regulation.

Yes, s'long as the captain doesn't run around like a badass with a sidearm like Zimmy. :)


When it comes to the government, even at the city level, you risk corruption, regulations written to favor more established or larger or wealthier companies over small, like the Taxi medallion system. Not saying it's all corrupt, but the risk is there.

I had to Google taxi medallions .. we don't have that here but should implement a basic background check on drivers. Here in Boise any yahoo can toss a sign on their '72 Pinto and go to town. Anyway, sounds like Uber may ultimately render the medallions a bit moot.

There's always a risk of corruption. The large successful restaurant may own the local health inspector - but you gotta have health inspectors.

That's commercial though - no corruption exists within residential code enforcement.

domer76
12-27-2015, 09:48 AM
Most HOA agreements have enforcement clauses and the homeowner who causes the HOA to enforce the agreement is contract bound to pay the attorney's fees and court costs if the the noncompliant owner loses. So long as the HOA is following its own rules, they typically win in court (or arbitration).

You'll have to remember that Chris has a disdain for the courts and positive law. But now that he has a dog in the hunt with his mini-government HOA that will trample my "natural" property rights, all-of-sudden positive law doesn't look so bad.

You can't make this shit up!

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 09:48 AM
Home Owners Association wouldn't let your stink in the neighborhood. When we move in we must first sign a HOA agreement or else go elsewhere.

Ah nice, so your HOA CC&R's mention farm animals but not the condition in which you keep your yard?

Never seen one like that - very interesting. All of mine included a few sentences about your yard -- no inoperable vehicles, trash, etc. Don't mow your grass or control weeds, they send in the service doing common areas and send you the bill. Don't pay it (or your HOA dues) they can put a simple lien on your property whether you rent or own it.

Mow yer damn lawn ;-)

domer76
12-27-2015, 09:51 AM
Right, nobody buys your game.

And now you forgot to even attempt to argue the topic. The government is an aggressor, an initializer of force, HOA, clubs, cops are not, they are cooperate forms of social order.

And you'll need the government to enforce your HOA codes to infringe on my "natural rights". The irony is thick!

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 09:56 AM
Simple solution....buy property in an area without rules. There are areas in the county that look like a third world nation for those who want to live that way. People who purchase property in an area with rules do so because they want the protection the rules provide. Its everyone's right to choose where/how to live. I live in an area with zoning laws because that is what I wanted. I pay taxes & fees to support those laws & pay for the enforcement officers. Why should I have to deal with someone who wants to live in a junkyard?

Nailed it - the Hillbillies raised a lot of eyebrows in Beverly Hills, but Mr. Drysdale and Miss Hathaway made sure they had a lawn service and gardeners to keep things looking nice.

;-)

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 10:03 AM
That's true, and HOAs were just one example of people cooperating by choice.

Hmmm, maybe but every HOA i've seen required belonging, paying the dues and adhering to the rules.

That's not to say that a person couldn't call for a vote on a rule they disliked.

E.g. - The rules have to change with the times. Originally there were no satellite dishes allowed. But the homes were built when they were 10 feet in diameter.

They're comparatively tiny now so we took that out.

donttread
12-27-2015, 10:21 AM
Just mow yer damned lawn ;-)

You just proved my point

Chris
12-27-2015, 10:47 AM
Yes, s'long as the captain doesn't run around like a badass with a sidearm like Zimmy. :)



I had to Google taxi medallions .. we don't have that here but should implement a basic background check on drivers. Here in Boise any yahoo can toss a sign on their '72 Pinto and go to town. Anyway, sounds like Uber may ultimately render the medallions a bit moot.

There's always a risk of corruption. The large successful restaurant may own the local health inspector - but you gotta have health inspectors.

That's commercial though - no corruption exists within residential code enforcement.



Then the people find another. Market-based police depends entirely on providing customers what they value. There are still private police in various areas of the US, including San Francisco and they tend to get more favorable ratings than public police.


Same with taxi drivers.


But the inspectors need not be attached to the government, they can be private as well.

Chris
12-27-2015, 10:52 AM
You'll have to remember that Chris has a disdain for the courts and positive law. But now that he has a dog in the hunt with his mini-government HOA that will trample my "natural" property rights, all-of-sudden positive law doesn't look so bad.

You can't make this shit up!



Disdain is something many associate with you, domer.


I do not disdain positive law as you make up. My point about positive law is it is valuable only inasmuch as it comports with moral law. To simplistically justify law because it is law is circular and meaningless. --But you will misrepresent my position again and again. That's part of your game.

HOAs are not the same as the government. As already explained, the government is aggressive and can by force take your property, HOAs cannot initiate force, and could only take your property because you signed a contract agreeing to it, doesn't matter if you renege on your word.




You can't make this shit up!

And yet you do so again and again.

Chris
12-27-2015, 10:54 AM
And you'll need the government to enforce your HOA codes to infringe on my "natural rights". The irony is thick!


Let's see if you can answer questions.

Why is the government needed to enforce your agreements?

Chris
12-27-2015, 10:56 AM
Hmmm, maybe but every HOA i've seen required belonging, paying the dues and adhering to the rules.

That's not to say that a person couldn't call for a vote on a rule they disliked.

E.g. - The rules have to change with the times. Originally there were no satellite dishes allowed. But the homes were built when they were 10 feet in diameter.

They're comparatively tiny now so we took that out.



Yes, when I moved here I had to join the HOA. But I choose to move here knowing that. It was one reason to move here.

Earlier I gave example of how we changed the rules. Another: When my son was growing up he and his friends were into skateboarding. Several parents went to the HOA, got signatures, and had a skatepark built.

domer76
12-27-2015, 10:59 AM
Disdain is something many associate with you, domer.


I do not disdain positive law as you make up. My point about positive law is it is valuable only inasmuch as it comports with moral law. To simplistically justify law because it is law is circular and meaningless. --But you will misrepresent my position again and again. That's part of your game.

HOAs are not the same as the government. As already explained, the government is aggressive and can by force take your property, HOAs cannot initiate force, and could only take your property because you signed a contract agreeing to it, doesn't matter if you renege on your word.





And yet you do so again and again.

Priceless! Just fucking priceless!

domer76
12-27-2015, 11:01 AM
Let's see if you can answer questions.

Why is the government needed to enforce your agreements?

That was exactly the point Peter made on your mini-government HOA and you agreed.

I'm going to have to sharpen my knife to cut through this irony!

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 11:05 AM
Then the people find another. Market-based police depends entirely on providing customers what they value. There are still private police in various areas of the US, including San Francisco and they tend to get more favorable ratings than public police.

Same with taxi drivers.

But the inspectors need not be attached to the government, they can be private as well.

I get it that you're all for privatization. Uber works well for me, and our city actually made them jump through a few hoops to be licensed here as far as more in-depth background checks. But i'd certainly trust them more than i would our completely unregulated taxi system. A young lady was raped by a taxi driver not long ago.

Privatization does have limitations and pitfalls. You should read sometime about Idaho's journey into privatization of our prisons. Talk about corruption and ineptitude? It was bad, and the state ultimately had to pay lots more in legal settlements than they saved on those profit-taking crooks.

Ultimately it takes good governance to keep the privatized segments from becoming corrupt and running amok.

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 11:09 AM
Yes, when I move here I had to join the HOA. But I choose to move here knowing that. It was one reason to move here.

Earlier I gave example of how we changed the rules. Another: When my son was growing up he and his friends were into skateboarding. Several parents went to the HOA, got signatures, and had a skatepark built.

Okay, got your drift. If donttread and Tahuyaman want to live out in the sticks .. free will and all that.

Personally, when it comes to my neighborhood i want rules and stability.

Cool story about the skatepark. Same thing has happened in several of the larger communities but more of our skate parks were built and maintained by cities.

Chris
12-27-2015, 11:26 AM
Priceless! Just fucking priceless!



Do you seriously consider that a contribution to the discussion here?

Chris
12-27-2015, 11:27 AM
That was exactly the point Peter made on your mini-government HOA and you agreed.

I'm going to have to sharpen my knife to cut through this irony!



That is your misreading of both.


You might want to sharpen your skill at contributing to discussion.

Chris
12-27-2015, 11:32 AM
I get it that you're all for privatization. Uber works well for me, and our city actually made them jump through a few hoops to be licensed here as far as more in-depth background checks. But i'd certainly trust them more than i would our completely unregulated taxi system. A young lady was raped by a taxi driver not long ago.

Privatization does have limitations and pitfalls. You should read sometime about Idaho's journey into privatization of our prisons. Talk about corruption and ineptitude? It was bad, and the state ultimately had to pay lots more in legal settlements than they saved on those profit-taking crooks.

Ultimately it takes good governance to keep the privatized segments from becoming corrupt and running amok.



But I'm not speaking of an unregulated taxi system. Privatization privatized regulation.

Yes, privatization is not perfect, just better that public regulation with its limitations and corruptions.

Governance does not require a government.

Consider a country club. In order to join you need to agree to its rules and fees and penalties. And all that is enforced by the club without recourse to the government. Or take the stock exchanges, same thing, membership requires adherence to standards and rules and regulations created by the stock exchanges, without recourse to the government.

Chris
12-27-2015, 11:35 AM
Okay, got your drift. If donttread and Tahuyaman want to live out in the sticks .. free will and all that.

Personally, when it comes to my neighborhood i want rules and stability.

Cool story about the skatepark. Same thing has happened in several of the larger communities but more of our skate parks were built and maintained by cities.


There you go. You move to say San Antonio that is highly regulated by zoning ordinances and they can move to Austin which is not. You know those tiny houses that are becoming popular? You can't build and live in one in SA but you can in Austin.

I think that's more or less donttread's point: Choices and not being freaking controlled.

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 11:53 AM
I think that's more or less donttread's point: Choices and not being freaking controlled.

Perhaps, but his "point" when it comes to mowing his lawn is pointless. He admitted that he belonged to an HOA that had CC&R's.

Trust me, there's something in there about his lawn.

Bo-4
12-27-2015, 12:06 PM
Or take the stock exchanges, same thing, membership requires adherence to standards and rules and regulations created by the stock exchanges, without recourse to the government.

Until of course, the WS banks became too big to fail .. and we bailed their pathetic asses out. ;-)

Chris
12-27-2015, 12:13 PM
Until of course, the WS banks became too big to fail .. and we bailed their pathetic asses out. ;-)

Becoming too big to fail required the government. They should have failed long ago. The market has a way of self-regulating, the government has a way of screwing things up and screwing us.

domer76
12-27-2015, 12:21 PM
Do you seriously consider that a contribution to the discussion here?

About the only thing that could make this more ironic is if you were a board member, especially president, of your quasi-governmental, neighborhood-nazis.

PLEASE tell me it's so!

Chris
12-27-2015, 12:27 PM
About the only thing that could make this more ironic is if you were a board member, especially president, of your quasi-governmental, neighborhood-nazis.

PLEASE tell me it's so!

Enough emotional outbursts, please.

domer76
12-27-2015, 12:28 PM
That is your misreading of both.


You might want to sharpen your skill at contributing to discussion.

Quote from Peter's post that you gave a thumbs up to:


Most HOA agreements have enforcement clauses and the homeowner who causes the HOA to enforce the agreement is contract bound to pay the attorney's fees and court costs... So long as the HOA is following its own rules, they typically win in court (or arbitration).



Notice the mention of the courts. I tell ya' Chris, it doesn't get much better!

domer76
12-27-2015, 12:29 PM
Enough emotional outbursts, please.

I just love it when a hypocritical bullshitter is exposed!

Chris
12-27-2015, 12:31 PM
Quote from Peter's post that you gave a thumbs up to:


Most HOA agreements have enforcement clauses and the homeowner who causes the HOA to enforce the agreement is contract bound to pay the attorney's fees and court costs... So long as the HOA is following its own rules, they typically win in court (or arbitration).



Notice the mention of the courts. I tell ya' Chris, it doesn't get much better!


If that's what a HOA contract states but it's more likely to state that it will be enforced privately through private arbitration, which Peter mentions but you don't even seem to see--the way carriers like Verizon, AT&T, etc contracts do. There is no requirement that enforcement be public.

Chris
12-27-2015, 12:32 PM
I just love it when a hypocritical bullshitter is exposed!

ENough with the name calling, discuss topic or find one in which you can contribute.

Truth Detector
12-27-2015, 12:33 PM
I just love it when a hypocritical bullshitter is exposed!

Lovelier still when they are incapable of comprehending the obvious and represent the ultimate when it comes to being a fascist control freak.

TBed for ignoring warnings.

domer76
12-27-2015, 01:00 PM
Lovelier still when they are incapable of comprehending the obvious and represent the ultimate when it comes to being a fascist control freak.

TBed for ignoring warnings.

Chris, can you tell me where I can go to request a moderator be removed for conflict of interest?

TBed for violation rule 9, which, btw, explains how to question, challenge, criticize moderation.

ThaiBoxer
12-27-2015, 02:55 PM
Conservatives decided they wanted to be in everybody's bedroom to make sure they weren't sinning against their "god"

Peter1469
12-27-2015, 03:45 PM
Conservatives decided they wanted to be in everybody's bedroom to make sure they weren't sinning against their "god"

socio-cons do that

ThaiBoxer
12-27-2015, 03:46 PM
socio-cons do that

Like I said, conservatives

Chris
12-27-2015, 03:55 PM
Like I said, conservatives

Fiscal cons don't care about your bedroom.

Mac-7
12-27-2015, 04:02 PM
Fiscal cons don't care about your bedroom.

Unlike libs, conservatives can walk and chew gum at the same time so they could be fiscal and social cons.

Chris
12-27-2015, 04:03 PM
Unlike libs, conservatives can walk and chew gum at the same time so they coud fiscal and social cons.

If you were just a conservative...

Mac-7
12-27-2015, 04:07 PM
If you were just a conservative...

As an anarchist your opinion of who is a conservative is meaningless.

Chris
12-27-2015, 04:15 PM
As an anarchist your opinion of who is a conservative is meaningless.

As is yours as a Republican partisan.


But read Conservative Anarchism - Obvious Contradiction or Obviously Awesome (http://distributedrepublic.net/archives/2007/08/15/conservative-anarchism-obvious-contradiction-or-obviously-awesome/).

Mac-7
12-27-2015, 04:22 PM
As is yours as a Republican partisan.


But read Conservative Anarchism - Obvious Contradiction or Obviously Awesome (http://distributedrepublic.net/archives/2007/08/15/conservative-anarchism-obvious-contradiction-or-obviously-awesome/).

Not at all.

i can affect the future by voting and you cant.

Chris
12-27-2015, 04:25 PM
Not at all.

i can affect the future by voting and you cant.


Keep believing that.

Now, after that digression, care to address the topic?

Peter1469
12-27-2015, 04:49 PM
How can a person advocate using the federal government to advance religious and cultural issues. Other than supporting the useful arts, the enumerated powers are silent on the issue- the answer of course, is that socio-cons are not really conservative. They are big government types like most liberals.

donttread
12-27-2015, 06:26 PM
How can a person advocate using the federal government to advance religious and cultural issues. Other than supporting the useful arts, the enumerated powers are silent on the issue- the answer of course, is that socio-cons are not really conservative. They are big government types like most liberals.

Great post Peter

donttread
12-27-2015, 06:29 PM
The notion that anarchy is a good idea and advances society can only be expressed in a vacuum bereft of historic reality while wallowing in blissful denial and ignorance.

The black community has been ravaged by drugs and crime; yet you wish to make it penalty free. Dumb, really, really dumb.

So if the government doesn't micro manage it's citizen's lives it constitutes anarchy?

Chris
12-27-2015, 06:31 PM
So if the government doesn't micro manage it's citizen's lives it constitutes anarchy?

That would be the constitutional government founder for the US, a minarchy.

donttread
12-27-2015, 06:31 PM
Like I said, conservatives


The founders were actually fiscal conservative, social liberals

Tahuyaman
12-28-2015, 12:11 PM
Are they a bit more like this? Well, at least y'all keep ya yard decent! :D

http://server1.decorcamp.com/images/www.cyclefish.com/uploads_forum/948/133803/front-porch-ideas-for-mobile-homes-570.jpg

some people do better than others. My neighbor uses a crew of Mexicans. They do a decent job, but they only maintain. No creative creations from them.

Bo-4
12-28-2015, 12:51 PM
Fiscal cons don't care about your bedroom.

You fiscal cons need to convince the socials to form their own damn party .. they're killing the R brand.

Cletus
12-28-2015, 01:05 PM
When did we become a nation of control freaks?

This is what happens when small people are given more power than they can handle.

Cigar
12-28-2015, 01:06 PM
When The Special People started losing "their" Majority Control. :grin:

Bo-4
12-28-2015, 01:20 PM
When The Special People started losing "their" Majority Control. :grin:

Nailed it - yep, if they had both Houses and the Presidency - we'd go right back to uterus and religious mind control.

Which of course ... most of 'em are just fine with. :)

zelmo1234
12-28-2015, 01:53 PM
Nailed it - yep, if they had both Houses and the Presidency - we'd go right back to uterus and religious mind control.

Which of course ... most of 'em are just fine with. :)

You know what is really funny? If you look at History, the ideology that forced control on the people and murdered the opposition by the millions is not the Right, but the left.

The party that is pushing for more government control over your lives is not the GOP it is the DNC.

The answer to when did we become a nation of control freaks? When we let them.

Bo-4
12-28-2015, 01:57 PM
You know what is really funny? If you look at History, the ideology that forced control on the people and murdered the opposition by the millions is not the Right, but the left.

The party that is pushing for more government control over your lives is not the GOP it is the DNC.

The answer to when did we become a nation of control freaks? When we let them.

Got a link on that .. or is this more truthiness? ;)

zelmo1234
12-28-2015, 02:02 PM
Got a link on that .. or is this more truthiness? ;)

Can I ask a favor of you on the left.

When we have to go through this again, and again and again, because you all keep trying to live a lie. Can you at least ask if we have a link on it AGAIN

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/socialisms-death-count/

Just look at what is happening today. the left is not concerned about the truth in anything, especially their choice for President They have to murder the opposition, because their agenda is based on lies.

Cigar
12-28-2015, 02:05 PM
Can I ask a favor of you on the left.

When we have to go through this again, and again and again, because you all keep trying to live a lie. Can you at least ask if we have a link on it AGAIN

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/socialisms-death-count/

Just look at what is happening today. the left is not concerned about the truth in anything, especially their choice for President They have to murder the opposition, because their agenda is based on lies.


Sure, see when it happens again.

Only happens when The (R) are running things, and that ain't going to be happening anytime soon.

Bo-4
12-28-2015, 02:12 PM
Can I ask a favor of you on the left.

When we have to go through this again, and again and again, because you all keep trying to live a lie. Can you at least ask if we have a link on it AGAIN

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/socialisms-death-count/

Just look at what is happening today. the left is not concerned about the truth in anything, especially their choice for President They have to murder the opposition, because their agenda is based on lies.

You should know better than to use WorldNutDaily as a definitive source .. for well, ANYTHING.
:biglaugh:

zelmo1234
12-28-2015, 02:19 PM
You should know better than to use WorldNutDaily as a definitive source .. for well, ANYTHING.
:biglaugh:

Ok tell you what use any source you want. and post your numbers for China, Nazi Germany, USSR, Cambodia we will just use those 4.

And we can use your numbers.

Chris
12-28-2015, 02:26 PM
You should know better than to use WorldNutDaily as a definitive source .. for well, ANYTHING.
:biglaugh:

Walter Williams is a reliable source. Try and address his message. From Zelmo's link:


What’s not appreciated is that Nazism is a form of socialism. In fact, the term Nazi stands for the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. The unspeakable acts of Adolf Hitler’s Nazis pale in comparison with the horrors committed by the communists in the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the People’s Republic of China. Between 1917 and 1987, Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin and their successors murdered and were otherwise responsible for the deaths of 62 million of their own people. Between 1949 and 1987, China’s communists, led by Mao Zedong and his successors, murdered and were otherwise responsible for the deaths of 76 million Chinese. The most authoritative tally of history’s most murderous regimes is documented on University of Hawaii professor Rudolph J. Rummel’s website and in his book “Death by Government.”

Bo-4
12-28-2015, 02:50 PM
Walter Williams is a reliable source. Try and address his message. From Zelmo's link:

Sorry Chris, but no reputable journalist writes for WorldNut. They are THE go to site for Birthers and various other conspiracy theorists.


What’s not appreciated is that Nazism is a form of socialism. In fact, the term Nazi stands for the National Socialist German Workers’ Party.

As we've discussed many times in the past, National Socialists have nothing to do with democratic socialists (like Sanders for instance).

In fact, Nazis were Fascists and most definitions of Fascism include the words: "extreme right wing". Antonym = Liberal.

fas·cist

ˈfaSHəst/
noun
plural noun: fascists

an advocate or follower of fascism.




synonyms:
authoritarian (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+authoritarian&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIHjAA), totalitarian (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+totalitarian&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIHzAA), autocrat (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+autocrat&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIIDAA), extreme right-winger, rightist (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+rightist&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIITAA); More










antonyms:
liberal (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+liberal&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIKTAA)

Chris
12-28-2015, 03:00 PM
Sorry Chris, but no reputable journalist writes for WorldNut. They are THE go to site for Birthers and various other conspiracy theorists.



As we've discussed many times in the past, National Socialists have nothing to do with democratic socialists (like Sanders for instance).

In fact, Nazis were Fascists and most definitions of Fascism include the words: "extreme right wing". Antonym = Liberal.

fas·cist

ˈfaSHəst/
noun
plural noun: fascists

an advocate or follower of fascism.




synonyms:
authoritarian (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+authoritarian&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIHjAA), totalitarian (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+totalitarian&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIHzAA), autocrat (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+autocrat&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIIDAA), extreme right-winger, rightist (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+rightist&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIITAA); More










antonyms:
liberal (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=define+liberal&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZwrS0qf_JAhUI0GMKHc3LC8sQ_SoIKTAA)










It always amazes me when people are called out for ad hom and they then defend it.

And argue vernacular dictionary definitions.

Let me know when you're rational.

Bo-4
12-28-2015, 03:44 PM
It always amazes me when people are called out for ad hom and they then defend it.

And argue vernacular dictionary definitions.

Let me know when you're rational.

HuH? You argue that a) WorldNetDaily is a magnet for great journalists and then b) you have the nads to deny a Webster's definition?

Okee, get back to me when you know what "rational" means.

;-)

Chris
12-28-2015, 03:48 PM
HuH? You argue that a) WorldNetDaily is a magnet for great journalists and then b) you have the nads to deny a Webster's definition?

Okee, get back to me when you know what "rational" means.

;-)


I did not argue the messenger like you did, Bo. Your argument is pure baloney. And now you make things up to cover it up.

Tahuyaman
12-28-2015, 03:53 PM
You fiscal cons need to convince the socials to form their own damn party .. they're killing the R brand.


Why do you think conservatives should take your stupid advice anyway? Should conservative be like the liberals and reject any debate or disagreement of any kind?

donttread
12-29-2015, 08:32 AM
You know what is really funny? If you look at History, the ideology that forced control on the people and murdered the opposition by the millions is not the Right, but the left.

The party that is pushing for more government control over your lives is not the GOP it is the DNC.

The answer to when did we become a nation of control freaks? When we let them.

It's neither right nor left, it is simply the nature of the power addicted people we tend to put in power. The Constitution did it's best to check such power but the price was eternal viglance and the people quit making the payments

Chris
12-29-2015, 09:07 AM
It's neither right nor left, it is simply the nature of the power addicted people we tend to put in power. The Constitution did it's best to check such power but the price was eternal viglance and the people quit making the payments

I would agree the left/right debate is but a distraction to the real issue between those who seek power over others and those who seek to be left alone.

Bo-4
12-29-2015, 09:31 AM
I did not argue the messenger like you did, Bo. Your argument is pure baloney. And now you make things up to cover it up.

To each their own Chris - but you should know better than to believe ANYTHING WorldNut tosses out there.

It's a little like Alex Jones meets Donald Trump ;-)

Chris
12-29-2015, 09:37 AM
To each their own Chris - but you should know better than to believe ANYTHING WorldNut tosses out there.

It's a little like Alex Jones meets Donald Trump ;-)

My point is worldnet has nothing to do with it. One can neither appeal to them as authority nor attack them as messenger and remain rational. The point is the message.

donttread
12-29-2015, 02:14 PM
Home Owners Association wouldn't let your stink in the neighborhood. When we move in we must first sign a HOA agreement or else go elsewhere.

And that's what I have against HOA's, they will eventually limit choice

donttread
12-29-2015, 02:15 PM
So some of you didn't know did you? You didn't know that America had become "control freak central" Now you know