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donttread
01-06-2016, 07:38 AM
Even as a small government fiscal conservative when I look at the wealth of our nation I can see how education should be /if not free, far more affordable than it currently is, especially for trade school or junior college which might carry the weight a free HS diploma did 30 or 40 years ago .
Also I can see how people in such a wealthy nation should have healthcare access. I love the idea of medical insurance not being tied to your job because that opens up more opportunities for people to change jobs or even work two satisfying part time jobs vs. one mundane full time job and should increase pay rates as the cost of insurance would no longer be the employers issue to deal with.
What I think is lacking in both arenas is a viable plan, preferably administered by the states and with the understanding that such programs will require cuts in other spending. For healthcare I think single payer is the worst possible option as without competition the single payer would become fat, lazy, uninventive and ineffective, much like governments do
Thoughts ?

Cigar
01-06-2016, 08:07 AM
Yep. we need single payer!

zelmo1234
01-06-2016, 08:16 AM
If there is anything that we know for sure, it is when the government become involved with anything, the quality goes down and the price skyrockets.

K-12 we spend more per student than any other country in the world and I challenge you to find a high school senior that can count back your change.

Just look at what happened with the ACA premiums have doubles as well as co pays, your options have been reduced, and there are more restrictions.

So the answer is not more government but less. If you get the government out of both of these. the prices will drop dramatically.

Imagine that every parent in the country has an average of 13.500.00 to use to educate their child any way they see fit. The quality of K-12 education will dramatically increase overnight. because they will either do a better job or be our of business.

Take Government out of healthcare and let co-ops and the private sector handle it and the prices will drop.

Government is not the solution, it is the problem

Brett Nortje
01-06-2016, 08:16 AM
Even as a small government fiscal conservative when I look at the wealth of our nation I can see how education should be /if not free, far more affordable that it currently is, especially for trade school or junior college which might carry the weight a free HS diploma did 30 or 40 years ago .
Also I can see how people in such a wealthy nation should have healthcare access. I love the idea of medical insurance not being tied to your job because that opens up more opportunities for people to change jobs or even work two satisfying part time jobs vs. one mundane full time job and should increase pay rates as the cost of insurance would no longer the employers issue to deal with.
What I think is lacking in both arenas is a viable plan, preferably administered by the states and with the understanding that such programs will require cuts in other spending. For healthcare I think single payer is the worst possible option as without competition the single payer would become fat, lazy, uninventive and ineffective, much like governments do
Thoughts ?

I think i understand. you think 'single payers,' or, 'one income' would result in sloth? of course, there is surety with this, as, the state will always pay for the insurance no matter what the state of the 'customers.'

Maybe with obama care there is waste. with the single payer it would be that everyone is covered though. the result is spent by the state on infrastructure and stuff, as in a 'fairly transparent society leadership' there will be no place for the state to waste money - at least it will be paid back to the debt of the country, yes?

zelmo1234
01-06-2016, 08:22 AM
The funny part is people actually think that Single payer would provide equal healthcare.

Just like what happened in Canada people like myself will set up co-ops with like minded and skim off the pest Doc's for our own. leaving the system with a lack of Doctors. and the ones that are in that system are the bottom of the barrel.

donttread
01-06-2016, 09:23 AM
Yep. we need single payer!

Lack of competition breeds ineffective results

donttread
01-06-2016, 09:25 AM
I think i understand. you think 'single payers,' or, 'one income' would result in sloth? of course, there is surety with this, as, the state will always pay for the insurance no matter what the state of the 'customers.'

Maybe with obama care there is waste. with the single payer it would be that everyone is covered though. the result is spent by the state on infrastructure and stuff, as in a 'fairly transparent society leadership' there will be no place for the state to waste money - at least it will be paid back to the debt of the country, yes?

America lacks the socialist leaning history that most nations with single payer have. Why not have multiple potential carriers to compete based upon price, formularies and customer service?

donttread
01-06-2016, 09:32 AM
If there is anything that we know for sure, it is when the government become involved with anything, the quality goes down and the price skyrockets.

K-12 we spend more per student than any other country in the world and I challenge you to find a high school senior that can count back your change.

Just look at what happened with the ACA premiums have doubles as well as co pays, your options have been reduced, and there are more restrictions.

So the answer is not more government but less. If you get the government out of both of these. the prices will drop dramatically.

Imagine that every parent in the country has an average of 13.500.00 to use to educate their child any way they see fit. The quality of K-12 education will dramatically increase overnight. because they will either do a better job or be our of business.

Take Government out of healthcare and let co-ops and the private sector handle it and the prices will drop.

Government is not the solution, it is the problem

I certainly see what you are saying and believe as apparently do you that government is inherently ineffeicent and that the less localized the government the worse it gets. However the government, preferably at the state level, has to be involved to regulate healthcare for our safety. Also the market has not solved the fact that one of the most advanced and wealthy nations in the world has tens of millions of uninsured citizens. I especially think we need to move away from healthcare being tied to employment which is the single thing I like about Obama care , even though I believe such programs should be run by the state, not the feds.

donttread
01-06-2016, 09:39 AM
The funny part is people actually think that Single payer would provide equal healthcare.

Just like what happened in Canada people like myself will set up co-ops with like minded and skim off the pest Doc's for our own. leaving the system with a lack of Doctors. and the ones that are in that system are the bottom of the barrel.

Make a price related heallth care network

donttread
01-06-2016, 09:47 AM
Another option at the opposite end of the spectrum would be provide very limited insurance, major event kind of stuff or increase deductibles and copays to the point where the individual has enough skin in the game to shop for heath care, in part, based upon price. Our current system in not a price competitive market. If the labor market is anything close to free ( which is very big if) the insurance savings employers receive should increase wages.
While this idea does leave health care tied to employment, it provides incentive for price competition, for the individual to not utilize health care indiscriminately and for people to change there life styles.
Of course the goal for years has been to set up a system where providers are paid to keep you well, instead of solely paid to treat illness.

Brett Nortje
01-06-2016, 10:09 AM
America lacks the socialist leaning history that most nations with single payer have. Why not have multiple potential carriers to compete based upon price, formularies and customer service?

I had no idea this had worked before.

If you have competition for health care and education, then some people will go without, as we see in all other business models.

Dangermouse
01-06-2016, 10:34 AM
America lacks the socialist leaning history that most nations with single payer have. Why not have multiple potential carriers to compete based upon price, formularies and customer service?

That's the disaster zone you have, and it's inefficient.

Truth Detector
01-06-2016, 10:42 AM
The dumbest words ever uttered:

FREE education.

FREE healthcare.

INCOME inequality.

WEALTH inequality.

SOCIAL SECURITY.

The Liberal left is full of them.

donttread
01-06-2016, 01:31 PM
The dumbest words ever uttered:

FREE education.

FREE healthcare.

INCOME inequality.

WEALTH inequality.

SOCIAL SECURITY.

The Liberal left is full of them.

Not so much free as reasonably affordable

Truth Detector
01-06-2016, 01:41 PM
Not so much free as reasonably affordable

So you divine yourself as the "decider" of what is reasonable and affordable? :biglaugh:

donttread
01-06-2016, 04:48 PM
So you divine yourself as the "decider" of what is reasonable and affordable? :biglaugh:

A lot less than the current cost

zelmo1234
01-06-2016, 05:40 PM
I certainly see what you are saying and believe as apparently do you that government is inherently ineffeicent and that the less localized the government the worse it gets. However the government, preferably at the state level, has to be involved to regulate healthcare for our safety. Also the market has not solved the fact that one of the most advanced and wealthy nations in the world has tens of millions of uninsured citizens. I especially think we need to move away from healthcare being tied to employment which is the single thing I like about Obama care , even though I believe such programs should be run by the state, not the feds.

What do you think is better, having NO insurance, but getting healthcare. Or having insurance and not being able to get care.

Because they are 2 very different things. healthcare has gotten worse under the ACA. uninsured numbers have gone down.

zelmo1234
01-06-2016, 05:43 PM
Healthcare would be a lot less expensive if people went un insured. the insurance industry actually allows for higher prices.

kilgram
01-06-2016, 06:42 PM
If there is anything that we know for sure, it is when the government become involved with anything, the quality goes down and the price skyrockets.

K-12 we spend more per student than any other country in the world and I challenge you to find a high school senior that can count back your change.

Just look at what happened with the ACA premiums have doubles as well as co pays, your options have been reduced, and there are more restrictions.

So the answer is not more government but less. If you get the government out of both of these. the prices will drop dramatically.

Imagine that every parent in the country has an average of 13.500.00 to use to educate their child any way they see fit. The quality of K-12 education will dramatically increase overnight. because they will either do a better job or be our of business.

Take Government out of healthcare and let co-ops and the private sector handle it and the prices will drop.

Government is not the solution, it is the problem

In Spain, healthcare is with the government involved and costs are very low and quality is very high. With great doctors. Also, government's healthcare creates more competition to the private hospitals and they have to offer competitive services and prices to gain clients. So, it is a win-win.

The problem, is when it becomes mixed, and it becomes partly private partly public, like vouchers. There everything goes wrong.

MisterVeritis
01-06-2016, 06:45 PM
Even as a small government fiscal conservative when I look at the wealth of our nation I can see how education should be /if not free, far more affordable than it currently is, especially for trade school or junior college which might carry the weight a free HS diploma did 30 or 40 years ago .
Also I can see how people in such a wealthy nation should have healthcare access. I love the idea of medical insurance not being tied to your job because that opens up more opportunities for people to change jobs or even work two satisfying part time jobs vs. one mundane full time job and should increase pay rates as the cost of insurance would no longer be the employers issue to deal with.
What I think is lacking in both arenas is a viable plan, preferably administered by the states and with the understanding that such programs will require cuts in other spending. For healthcare I think single payer is the worst possible option as without competition the single payer would become fat, lazy, uninventive and ineffective, much like governments do
Thoughts ?
If you want something you buy it.

Dr. Who
01-06-2016, 11:17 PM
America lacks the socialist leaning history that most nations with single payer have. Why not have multiple potential carriers to compete based upon price, formularies and customer service?
Because at the end of the day they have to surcharge to create profits for the shareholders. That surcharge either comes as an additional percentage of premium or by refusing to cover some care entirely or partially. That's also why insurance has deductibles.

They also don't have the advantage of purchasing hospital supplies at the gross discount rates that a purchaser like a State would, which also dictates the price of pharmaceuticals sold on the market. America pays higher prices for pharmaceuticals than any other country in the world.

Peter1469
01-07-2016, 07:27 AM
Because at the end of the day they have to surcharge to create profits for the shareholders. That surcharge either comes as an additional percentage of premium or by refusing to cover some care entirely or partially. That's also why insurance has deductibles.

They also don't have the advantage of purchasing hospital supplies at the gross discount rates that a purchaser like a State would, which also dictates the price of pharmaceuticals sold on the market. America pays higher prices for pharmaceuticals than any other country in the world.

In the US deductibles were an innovation from the 1990s- they were added just to remind the customer of health care that it isn't free. People would less likely go for minor stuff if they had to make even a nominal amount of money out of pocket.

donttread
01-07-2016, 07:31 AM
What do you think is better, having NO insurance, but getting healthcare. Or having insurance and not being able to get care.

Because they are 2 very different things. healthcare has gotten worse under the ACA. uninsured numbers have gone down.

How has healthcare gotten worse?

donttread
01-07-2016, 07:33 AM
Healthcare would be a lot less expensive if people went un insured. the insurance industry actually allows for higher prices.

Very true as it creates a situation where price competition among health care providers is almost non existent

donttread
01-07-2016, 07:41 AM
Healthcare would be a lot less expensive if people went un insured. the insurance industry actually allows for higher prices.

Very true as it creates a situation where price competition among health care providers is almost non existent

Dr. Who
01-07-2016, 04:57 PM
In the US deductibles were an innovation from the 1990s- they were added just to remind the customer of health care that it isn't free. People would less likely go for minor stuff if they had to make even a nominal amount of money out of pocket.
Insurance has deductibles period. You could say that insurance companies don't want to be nickeled and dimed, but those deductibles can make the difference between turning a profit and just breaking even or worse.

Matty
01-07-2016, 05:05 PM
In the US deductibles were an innovation from the 1990s- they were added just to remind the customer of health care that it isn't free. People would less likely go for minor stuff if they had to make even a nominal amount of money out of pocket.


Well, nowadays between the increased premiums, co pays and deductibles you may as well call yourself self insured. The only people getting a good deal are the usual suspects who get the freebies.

donttread
01-07-2016, 05:21 PM
Because at the end of the day they have to surcharge to create profits for the shareholders. That surcharge either comes as an additional percentage of premium or by refusing to cover some care entirely or partially. That's also why insurance has deductibles.

They also don't have the advantage of purchasing hospital supplies at the gross discount rates that a purchaser like a State would, which also dictates the price of pharmaceuticals sold on the market. America pays higher prices for pharmaceuticals than any other country in the world.

You can do all that with multiple payers. Hospitals already band together in groups to purchase supplies at a discount. And hospitals also already buy drugs much cheaper than the retail market charges.
Besides if the single payer is to be the government, their record is not exactly one of keeping cost down

Dr. Who
01-07-2016, 05:39 PM
You can do all that with multiple payers. Hospitals already band together in groups to purchase supplies at a discount. And hospitals also already buy drugs much cheaper than the retail market charges.
Besides if the single payer is to be the government, their record is not exactly one of keeping cost down
Public hospitals should not be directly administered by government but by civilian boards of directors. These are jobs that are taken by senior business CEOs and representative senior department heads who serve in a governance role and have a fiduciary responsibility to the hospital when fulfilling their primary duties: providing financial oversight and developing a mission, vision, and strategic plan for the hospital.

The government is possessed of massive purchasing power, far more than any collection of hospitals and already has the infrastructure in place for collecting the payroll premiums.

Cletus
01-07-2016, 06:11 PM
If you want something you buy it.

That is as it should be.

Peter1469
01-07-2016, 07:06 PM
Insurance has deductibles period. You could say that insurance companies don't want to be nickeled and dimed, but those deductibles can make the difference between turning a profit and just breaking even or worse.

Insurance use to not have copays here. They were introduced as a means of preventing people from going to doctors and hospitals for extremely minor issues.

Dr. Who
01-07-2016, 07:17 PM
Insurance use to not have copays here. They were introduced as a means of preventing people from going to doctors and hospitals for extremely minor issues.
I understand that the hypochondriac population, hysterical new mothers and attention seekers would bury the system in unjustifiable medical visits. The solution to that is something like a 911 line for medical triage, with experienced nurse practitioners directing people to the correct level of medical intervention, or none. More clinics servicing neighborhoods with more nurse practitioners dealing with the frightened mommies, hypochondriacs and attention seekers, sending the ones with merit to doctors or hospital at much lower costs.

Peter1469
01-07-2016, 07:33 PM
I understand that the hypochondriac population, hysterical new mothers and attention seekers would bury the system in unjustifiable medical visits. The solution to that is something like a 911 line for medical triage, with experienced nurse practitioners directing people to the correct level of medical intervention, or none. More clinics servicing neighborhoods with more nurse practitioners dealing with the frightened mommies, hypochondriacs and attention seekers, sending the ones with merit to doctors or hospital at much lower costs.

Urgent care centers have popped up around here. I have 4 within a square mile or two. They triage you there but have a higher copay that your doc office. Lower than an emergency room. If you need a prescription they will fill it for 3-4 days. You have to go to a doctor's office to get it longer, if you need it.

Dr. Who
01-07-2016, 07:39 PM
Urgent care centers have popped up around here. I have 4 within a square mile or two. They triage you there but have a higher copay that your doc office. Lower than an emergency room. If you need a prescription they will fill it for 3-4 days. You have to go to a doctor's office to get it longer, if you need it.
I'm thinking more level 1 triage. Panicked mother calls health line because her baby has a fever of 101 and a runny nose. Nurse practitioner says no worries. 101 is not a high fever for a baby. Keep baby comfortable, give baby lots of water and juice, baby aspirin and monitor temperature, if it hits 103 then see doctor or if it goes higher go to emerg.

Peter1469
01-07-2016, 07:44 PM
I'm thinking more level 1 triage. Panicked mother calls health line because her baby has a fever of 101 and a runny nose. Nurse practitioner says no worries. 101 is not a high fever for a baby. Keep baby comfortable, give baby lots of water and juice, baby aspirin and monitor temperature, if it hits 103 then see doctor or if it goes higher go to emerg.

My insurance company has a "ask a nurse" app on their webpage. They will give advice like that.

Dr. Who
01-07-2016, 07:47 PM
My insurance company has a "ask a nurse" app on their webpage. They will give advice like that.
It works pretty well to keep the non-issues out of the system.

zelmo1234
01-07-2016, 08:34 PM
How has healthcare gotten worse?

Well in may area, if you are one of the poor bastards that are stuck with the ACA, you don't have a hospital that accepts your insurance. Nor do you have any of the better doc's that will take it. You are stuck with the lower end of the scale

kilgram
01-08-2016, 03:43 PM
You can do all that with multiple payers. Hospitals already band together in groups to purchase supplies at a discount. And hospitals also already buy drugs much cheaper than the retail market charges.
Besides if the single payer is to be the government, their record is not exactly one of keeping cost down
In Spain government gets much cheaper drugs and thanks to it we have cheap healthcare.


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kilgram
01-08-2016, 03:44 PM
Insurance use to not have copays here. They were introduced as a means of preventing people from going to doctors and hospitals for extremely minor issues.
That is a poor excuse. The same that the right uses to privatize healthcare here.

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Peter1469
01-08-2016, 03:59 PM
That is a poor excuse. The same that the right uses to privatize healthcare here.

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My comment was about co-pays....

kilgram
01-08-2016, 03:59 PM
My comment was about co-pays....
My comment, too.

By the way, I like to call it re-pays.

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Peter1469
01-08-2016, 04:08 PM
My comment, too.

By the way, I like to call it re-pays.

Отправлено с моего Aquaris E5 через TapatalkYour comment did not address my comment...

donttread
01-08-2016, 05:04 PM
Well in may area, if you are one of the poor bastards that are stuck with the ACA, you don't have a hospital that accepts your insurance. Nor do you have any of the better doc's that will take it. You are stuck with the lower end of the scale


Yes, many of them had NO insurance before