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iustitia
01-12-2016, 09:29 PM
Secession is something often only brought up these days by partisans, similar to when someone threatens to move when someone of the other party wins the presidency. But before Lincoln's war it was a legitimate right guaranteed by virtue of being within a voluntary political union.

I personally believe Americans would be better off splitting up a bit. An empire this size with such a population is almost impossible to govern effectively, and just as in the past Americans identify more with their neighbors and community than with strangers a thousand miles away. I think it would be a useful tool for preserving the social, economic and political interests of people more so than an over-sized, heterogeneous empire spanning a continent.

Thoughts?

I will threadban the shit out of partisans looking to take shots at eachother.

Common
01-12-2016, 09:36 PM
One country undivided, splitting up into splinters makes for weakness imho

Peter1469
01-12-2016, 09:36 PM
I am still partial to our Founder's concept of the States having all power except that which they gave to the federal government as listed in Art. 1, sec. 8, U.S. Const. That would give us 50 "nations" that centralize foreign affairs and international trade.

Mister D
01-12-2016, 09:37 PM
I'm inclined to agree to some extent. It's absolutely inconceivable to many Americans right now though. There is a very strong and perhaps often unconscious Jacobin tendency in the US. I mean "Jacobin" in the French sense, BTW (i.e. to denote the belief in a strong centralized state).

Mister D
01-12-2016, 09:40 PM
One country undivided, splitting up into splinters makes for weakness imho

That's the thing though. It's not a choice between a centralized state, on the one hand, and weakness and chaos on the other. I'd much prefer to see more local autonomy, for example.

Green Arrow
01-12-2016, 09:50 PM
I have consistently supported secessionist movements every year they come up. I supported Scottish exit from the UK, Catalonia's exit from Spain, Venice's exit from Italy, Texas' exit from the U.S., even the "Six Californias" plan to split California into six U.S. states.

Common
01-12-2016, 10:19 PM
That's the thing though. It's not a choice between a centralized state, on the one hand, and weakness and chaos on the other. I'd much prefer to see more local autonomy, for example.

The thread specifically says secession thats what I responded too

Standing Wolf
01-12-2016, 10:23 PM
As long as all fifty states and their residents share a common federal Constitution, a strong federal judiciary is required to ensure that state governments do not deny their citizens the rights and freedoms recognized and enshrined in that Constitution. Shut the rest of it down, but leave the courts.

decedent
01-12-2016, 10:28 PM
I want Texas to finally succeed.

TrueBlue
01-12-2016, 10:58 PM
I disagree in that secession is the only answer or somehow the miraculous panacea to our ills.

I believe in President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address in that he spoke about a civil war much like what some here hope would happen but his words instead ring out and tout "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth." We should therefore unite together in this government through good times and bad times through prosperous and not so prosperous times. Through times of change and times when we could have done better. Citizen cohesiveness is the fiber that keeps the American people from splintering and we can maintain it as such. If even one string is broken from that fiber by an ill thought out plan that fiber is in danger of spinning a web of deceit instead of a safety net for its people. Thus, we must not allow that to happen for the overall good of this nation.

Green Arrow
01-12-2016, 11:07 PM
I disagree in that secession is the only answer or somehow the miraculous panacea to our ills.

I believe in President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address in that he spoke about a civil war much like what some here hope would happen but his words instead ring out and tout "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth." We should therefore unite together in this government through good times and bad times through prosperous and not so prosperous times. Through times of change and times when we could have done better. Citizen cohesiveness is the fiber that keeps the American people from splintering and we can maintain it as such. If even one string is broken from that fiber by an ill thought out plan that fiber is in danger of spinning a web of deceit instead of a safety net for its people. Thus, we must not allow that to happen for the overall good of this nation.

Great words. It's a shame they are rendered completely meaningless coming from you as a mouthpiece. Nobody on this forum promotes division among Americans more than you do.

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:19 PM
I disagree in that secession is the only answer or somehow the miraculous panacea to our ills.

I believe in President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address in that he spoke about a civil war much like what some here hope would happen but his words instead ring out and tout "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth." We should therefore unite together in this government through good times and bad times through prosperous and not so prosperous times. Through times of change and times when we could have done better. Citizen cohesiveness is the fiber that keeps the American people from splintering and we can maintain it as such. If even one string is broken from that fiber by an ill thought out plan that fiber is in danger of spinning a web of deceit instead of a safety net for its people. Thus, we must not allow that to happen for the overall good of this nation.

Simplifying your post a bit...

I don't think secession is the answer to our problems.

In President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address he said "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth." We should support the federal government no matter what. Unity is what keeps Americans from doing their own thing and we can keep it that way. If people do their own thing then entitlement programs will collapse. That would be bad.

Why couldn't you just say states seceding would threaten the federal government's revenue? That's what Lincoln argued in his inaugural address long before he rebranded his war on the south as being about morality. So you're right to reference Lincoln who waged the bloodiest war in our history to keep federal revenue from Southern ports, but your reference to Gettysburg makes no sense in the context of your post. Why even mention it? Could you just be honest about what you want out of a political union instead of pulling a midcan?

gamewell45
01-12-2016, 11:20 PM
Secession is not the answer; there is strength in numbers; all they have to learn is to get along.

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:21 PM
Great words. It's a shame they are rendered completely meaningless coming from you as a mouthpiece. Nobody on this forum promotes division among Americans more than you do.

Seriously, what does this mean?


I believe in President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address in that he spoke about a civil war much like what some here hope would happen but his words instead ring out and tout "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."

Cletus
01-12-2016, 11:22 PM
As long as all fifty states and their residents share a common federal Constitution, a strong federal judiciary is required to ensure that state governments do not deny their citizens the rights and freedoms recognized and enshrined in that Constitution. Shut the rest of it down, but leave the courts.

The Courts are the biggest problem, as Jefferson and Madison predicted they would be.

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:28 PM
Great words. It's a shame they are rendered completely meaningless coming from you as a mouthpiece. Nobody on this forum promotes division among Americans more than you do.

Naw, for real though, what the hell am I reading-


I disagree in that secession is the only answer or somehow the miraculous panacea to our ills.
I believe in President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address in that he spoke about a civil war much like what some here hope would happen but his words instead ring out and tout "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."
We should therefore unite together in this government through good times and bad times through prosperous and not so prosperous times. Through times of change and times when we could have done better.
Citizen cohesiveness is the fiber that keeps the American people from splintering and we can maintain it as such. If even one string is broken from that fiber by an ill thought out plan that fiber is in danger of spinning a web of deceit instead of a safety net for its people. Thus, we must not allow that to happen for the overall good of this nation.
What the hell is citizen cohesiveness? Whatever it is I hope it's more cohesive than TrueBlue's posts.

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:32 PM
Secession is not the answer; there is strength in numbers; all they have to learn is to get along.

Not the answer to what question? Strength in numbers for what? Who is they?

exotix
01-12-2016, 11:35 PM
I want Texas to finally succeed.So when illegals cross the Texas border Trump can build a wall around Texas ?

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:36 PM
As long as all fifty states and their residents share a common federal Constitution, a strong federal judiciary is required to ensure that state governments do not deny their citizens the rights and freedoms recognized and enshrined in that Constitution. Shut the rest of it down, but leave the courts.

But we're talking about secession. So the federal Constitution wouldn't be relevant.

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:38 PM
I want Texas to finally succeed.

So when illegals cross the Texas border Trump can build a wall around Texas ?
@Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612) or Safety, can you get rid of these?

BleedingHeadKen
01-12-2016, 11:39 PM
I disagree in that secession is the only answer or somehow the miraculous panacea to our ills.

I believe in President Lincoln's Gettysburg Address in that he spoke about a civil war much like what some here hope would happen but his words instead ring out and tout "Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth."


Except the million or so people we have to kill to hold it together. Oh, and those pesky natives that we'll wipe from the plains to make way for our railroads and commerce.

iustitia
01-12-2016, 11:42 PM
Except the million or so people we have to kill to hold it together. Oh, and those pesky natives that we'll wipe from the plains to make way for our railroads and commerce.
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Kudos to you. Lincoln's empire and generals cared nothing of a safety net. They were maintaining mercantilism and wiped out Southerners and Indians to do so. If that's the symbol of unity TrueBlue wants to appeal to us with...

Dr. Who
01-13-2016, 12:00 AM
decedent and Exotix thread banned at the request of the OP.

iustitia
01-13-2016, 12:03 AM
That's the thing though. It's not a choice between a centralized state, on the one hand, and weakness and chaos on the other. I'd much prefer to see more local autonomy, for example.

I think if states or regions were on their own things like debt and welfare for instance would be taken much more seriously. There really wouldn't be a choice but to get their houses in order.

Ethereal
01-13-2016, 05:45 AM
So what is the objective number of independent countries that should exist? Would the USA and Canada be stronger or better off if they merged their sovereignty? If the USA is not based on a voluntary union of sovereign states, then what is it based on?

Ethereal
01-13-2016, 05:47 AM
Secession is not the answer; there is strength in numbers; all they have to learn is to get along.

You could say the same thing about a failing marriage. But when people have irreconcilable differences, both sides cannot get what they want, so someone must lose in the end. And that is what the USA is, is a perpetual struggle over who will win and who will lose.

Peter1469
01-13-2016, 06:00 AM
We still have an international system that isn't going away. Many of the new 50 states would be irrelevant on the international stage. Many may become prey for strong nations.

zelmo1234
01-13-2016, 06:57 AM
As long as all fifty states and their residents share a common federal Constitution, a strong federal judiciary is required to ensure that state governments do not deny their citizens the rights and freedoms recognized and enshrined in that Constitution. Shut the rest of it down, but leave the courts.

It is not the rights "Enshrined" in the Constitution that are the problem, it is all the ones that Politicians and Judges have made up along the way that are ripping at the countries seems.

donttread
01-13-2016, 08:15 AM
Secession is something often only brought up these days by partisans, similar to when someone threatens to move when someone of the other party wins the presidency. But before Lincoln's war it was a legitimate right guaranteed by virtue of being within a voluntary political union.

I personally believe Americans would be better off splitting up a bit. An empire this size with such a population is almost impossible to govern effectively, and just as in the past Americans identify more with their neighbors and community than with strangers a thousand miles away. I think it would be a useful tool for preserving the social, economic and political interests of people more so than an over-sized, heterogeneous empire spanning a continent.

Thoughts?


I will threadban the shit out of partisans looking to take shots at eachother.


An often ignored part of the differences is urban vs. rural. Different problems, different expectations of rights, etc. Of course in many cases it would be geographically impossible to split along these lines. However, the Adirondacks has far more in common with Vermont than we do with NYC area

Cigar
01-13-2016, 09:11 AM
Secession is something often only brought up these days by partisans, similar to when someone threatens to move when someone of the other party wins the presidency. But before Lincoln's war it was a legitimate right guaranteed by virtue of being within a voluntary political union.

I personally believe Americans would be better off splitting up a bit. An empire this size with such a population is almost impossible to govern effectively, and just as in the past Americans identify more with their neighbors and community than with strangers a thousand miles away. I think it would be a useful tool for preserving the social, economic and political interests of people more so than an over-sized, heterogeneous empire spanning a continent.

Thoughts?

I will threadban the $#@! out of partisans looking to take shots at eachother.


Get over yourself, you're not that important anymore. :rollseyes:

... and yes, "those" people will be living next-door to you sooner or later and dating your women. :grin:

TB'd by OP's request

Cigar
01-13-2016, 09:33 AM
@Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612) or @Safety (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1226), can you get rid of these?

Soon you'll have a Forum all to yourself :jerk:

Here's an idea, remember those Slave Ships in the 1800's, maybe you can find yourself one, get the f'ck on it and get to succeeding yourself back to YOUR Homeland.

http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/Comanche-family-631.jpg__800x600_q85_crop.jpg

Matty
01-13-2016, 09:35 AM
Cigar, go take your medicine and calm down.

Matty
01-13-2016, 09:35 AM
One more year! One more year!

TB'd by OP's request

Cigar
01-13-2016, 09:38 AM
Cigar, go take your medicine and calm down.

I'm not excited, I love it when the Chickens come home to roost :laugh:

Cigar
01-13-2016, 09:40 AM
One more year! One more year!

Actually about 375'ish days of smacking the GOP around ... that about all I can take anyway.

Mister D
01-13-2016, 12:52 PM
Naw, for real though, what the hell am I reading-


What the hell is citizen cohesiveness? Whatever it is I hope it's more cohesive than TrueBlue's posts.

I laughed out loud.

Mister D
01-13-2016, 12:53 PM
I think if states or regions were on their own things like debt and welfare for instance would be taken much more seriously. There really wouldn't be a choice but to get their houses in order.

Very good point.