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texan
01-13-2016, 11:25 PM
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

We used to be ranked 3rd!

Keep up this social society and against business this will get worse.

texan
01-13-2016, 11:27 PM
First generation to do worse than their parents on us now.

donttread
01-14-2016, 06:31 AM
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

We used to be ranked 3rd!

Keep up this social society and against business this will get worse.



I have heard more than once that our class mobility ( aka The American dream) stacks up very poorly with the rest of the so called first world

Chris
01-14-2016, 06:46 AM
We've been going downhill since Bush was prez.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 06:58 AM
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

We used to be ranked 3rd!

Keep up this social society and against business this will get worse.

We used to have factories from coast to coast.

But a generation of leaders turned their backs on manufacturing and we have been going downhill ever since.

AeonPax
01-14-2016, 07:13 AM
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking We used to be ranked 3rd! Keep up this social society and against business this will get worse.
`
Awww, don't fret. The US is still #1 when it comes to putting people in jail.

donttread
01-14-2016, 07:22 AM
http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

We used to be ranked 3rd!

Keep up this social society and against business this will get worse.

Upward mobility has become a joke

donttread
01-14-2016, 07:22 AM
`
Awww, don't fret. The US is still #1 when it comes to putting people in jail.

By far too!

donttread
01-14-2016, 07:23 AM
We used to have factories from coast to coast.

But a generation of leaders turned their backs on manufacturing and we have been going downhill ever since.


True dat.

Chris
01-14-2016, 07:26 AM
We used to have factories from coast to coast.

But a generation of leaders turned their backs on manufacturing and we have been going downhill ever since.

Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP is down worldwide. It's no longer a good bet.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 07:43 AM
We used to have factories from coast to coast.

But a generation of leaders turned their backs on manufacturing and we have been going downhill ever since.

Globalism.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 07:44 AM
Upward mobility has become a joke

For uneducated people.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 07:50 AM
Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP is down worldwide. It's no longer a good bet.

Collecting welfare and getting high is better?

we consume a lot of stuff in America that has to be manufactured by someone.

Common Sense
01-14-2016, 08:21 AM
Cry socialism as the reason, then explain why many of the countries above the US have more socialist elements than the US. Including Canada.

Matty
01-14-2016, 08:34 AM
First generation to do worse than their parents on us now.


Is this linked to our mountain of debt?

Cigar
01-14-2016, 08:43 AM
It's those GD Black People's Fault ... and the Black half of Obama :grin:

Chris
01-14-2016, 09:15 AM
Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP is down worldwide. It's no longer a good bet.


Collecting welfare and getting high is better?

we consume a lot of stuff in America that has to be manufactured by someone.

Maybe a picture will help...

http://s30.postimg.org/krd2i58vl/worldmfg.jpg

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 09:34 AM
Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP is down worldwide. It's no longer a good bet.

I dont care what the percentage is in other countries.

All i care about is what manufacturing jobs can do for Americans.

And the massive piles of stuff we consume could and should be made here by American citizens.

Chris
01-14-2016, 09:35 AM
I dont care what the percentage is in other countries.

All i care about is what manufacturing jobs can do for Americans.

And the massive piles of stuff we consume could and should be made here by American citizens.


IOW, you don't care about reality.

It's a losing risk.

Do you fight to keep buggy manufacturing when automobiles were introduced?

texan
01-14-2016, 10:12 AM
We've been going downhill since Bush was prez.

Well there are peaks and valleys, we can turn this around but not if we keep spending like mad men. We need a business friendly environment.


Also, Chris (not sure your age) keep in mind that Bill Clinton wasn't an economic genius either. He didn't engineer the tech explosion it wasn't happening whether he was in office or not.......That is why he looks so great.

Chris
01-14-2016, 10:31 AM
Well there are peaks and valleys, we can turn this around but not if we keep spending like mad men. We need a business friendly environment.


Also, Chris (not sure your age) keep in mind that Bill Clinton wasn't an economic genius either. He didn't engineer the tech explosion it wasn't happening whether he was in office or not.......That is why he looks so great.

Sure, we, the people, can make things better, just not the government. As the Index indicates, one think driving us down is an environment of regulation and taxation hostile to and driving out business, so government could get out of way.

donttread
01-14-2016, 10:48 AM
For uneducated people.


I believe the largest single indicator of someone's income is their parents income

donttread
01-14-2016, 10:49 AM
We've been going downhill since Bush was prez.

Even before but Bushbama sure has accelerated the decline

donttread
01-14-2016, 10:51 AM
Manufacturing as a percentage of GDP is down worldwide. It's no longer a good bet.

That's due the production of unbacked fiat money

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 10:51 AM
I believe the largest single indicator of someone's income is their parents income

People with well off parents are more likely to get a good education. I don't think the parents income is a causal factor.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 10:52 AM
That's due the production of unbacked fiat money

Fiat money has nothing to do with it.

Productivity gains have a lot to do with it. Shifts in policy in China have a lot to do with it.

Chris
01-14-2016, 10:59 AM
That's due the production of unbacked fiat money

Don't think so. I think it's just the fact production costs have been so reduced as to make making a profit difficult, except in 3rd world countries. That and service and information have risen in value.

Chris
01-14-2016, 11:02 AM
Even before but Bushbama sure has accelerated the decline

I've followed the Index a long time and we were rising up to Bush, falling since.

Cigar
01-14-2016, 11:04 AM
I don't know what the big deal is here ... you President Barack Obama hasn't addressed your Economic issues?

WTF ... Tavis :huh:

donttread
01-14-2016, 11:50 AM
People with well off parents are more likely to get a good education. I don't think the parents income is a causal factor.


Access to a good education is part of what makes it causal, as are connections

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 12:02 PM
IOW, you don't care about reality.

It's a losing risk.

Do you fight to keep buggy manufacturing when automobiles were introduced?

What would an anarchist who does not vote know about reality?

if Americans use buggy whips we should make them here instead of importing them from china while American workers draw welfare?

Why that flies above your head is a mystery but makes sense to me.

Why pay Americans to do nothing as we must do in your alternate reality?

Truth Detector
01-14-2016, 12:09 PM
I believe the largest single indicator of someone's income is their parents income

You would be wrong; my wife and I have easily out-earned our parents simply by getting college degrees and working in growing industries. I surpassed my parents standard of living at the ripe old age of 32.

Truth Detector
01-14-2016, 12:10 PM
That's due the production of unbacked fiat money

Without fiat money; economic growth and prosperity would suffer even more malaise than we have seen over the last seven years.

Chris
01-14-2016, 12:13 PM
What would an anarchist who does not vote know about reality?

if Americans use buggy whips we should make them here instead of importing them from china while American workers draw welfare?

Why that flies above your head is a mystery but makes sense to me.

Why pay Americans to do nothing as we must do in your alternate reality?


Ever read Adam Smith? We import what others offer cheaper and produce what we have economic advantage for. This is just plain simple basic economics. See http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN13.html

Your attempted insults are funny, lol.

Truth Detector
01-14-2016, 12:13 PM
I don't know what the big deal is here ... you President Barack Obama hasn't addressed your Economic issues?

WTF ... Tavis :huh:

http://i.imgur.com/SgC7i.gif

Truth Detector
01-14-2016, 12:15 PM
Access to a good education is part of what makes it causal, as are connections

Any education at the college level is good and will lead to a much higher earning potential. That is, until recently under the Obama Presidency. Right now, a college education might get you a part time job at Starbucks.

Truth Detector
01-14-2016, 12:20 PM
Ever read Adam Smith? We import what others offer cheaper and produce what we have economic advantage for. This is just plain simple basic economics. See http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN13.html

Then we must ask why others can offer manufactured goods cheaper. Some of the reasons are; (1) fewer work regulations; (2) allowing the exploitation of their workers and environment; (3) currency manipulation; and (4) lower corporate taxes.

Nothing has been more harmful to our manufacturing industry than inflexible wage negotiations with unions and a Government compelled to regulate every possible outcome.

Abolish the tax code, supplant it with a fair consumption tax and castrate unions hold on Government, education and manufacturing and you will see a boom of prosperity such as the world has never seen.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 12:26 PM
Ever read Adam Smith? We import what others offer cheaper and produce what we have economic advantage for. This is just plain simple basic economics. See http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN13.html

Your attempted insults are funny, lol.

What is the economic advantge of an American worker drawing welfare?

comparative advantage my ass

,look at the trade numbers

we have a trade deficit with china alone of $300 billion a year.

so forget Smith because the comparative advantage is all with china.

Chris
01-14-2016, 12:37 PM
What is the economic advantge of an American worker drawing welfare?

comparative advantage my ass

,look at the trade numbers

we have a trade deficit with china alone of $300 billion a year.

so forget Smith because the comparative advantage is all with china.


What is the economic advantge of an American worker drawing welfare?

None, so why even raise that as an economic advantage. That's a stupid straw man.



Trade numbers? Those are abstractions, nations don't trade, individuals do.

Chris
01-14-2016, 12:40 PM
Then we must ask why others can offer manufactured goods cheaper. Some of the reasons are; (1) fewer work regulations; (2) allowing the exploitation of their workers and environment; (3) currency manipulation; and (4) lower corporate taxes.

Nothing has been more harmful to our manufacturing industry than inflexible wage negotiations with unions and a Government compelled to regulate every possible outcome.

Abolish the tax code, supplant it with a fair consumption tax and castrate unions hold on Government, education and manufacturing and you will see a boom of prosperity such as the world has never seen.



China offers goods cheaper because it forces its citizens to make up the difference by working cheaply.

Mexico the pay is simply lower.

Less regulations would incentivize businesses to remain here, migrate here, and, for those already chases offshore and overseas, to return here. See thread on Index of Economic Freedom.


Of course our government could elect to regulate more even to the point like China to force workers to take less for their labor. Liberty's not that important, is it?

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 12:41 PM
None, so why even raise that as an economic advantage. That's a stupid straw man.



Trade numbers? Those are abstractions, nations don't trade, individuals do.

You are the one who makes the stupid claim that a $300 billion trade deficit with china that drives Americans onto welfare is an economic advantage for America.

Chris
01-14-2016, 01:11 PM
You are the one who makes the stupid claim that a $300 billion trade deficit with china that drives Americans onto welfare is an economic advantage for America.

Except I didn't make that claim now did I, you did, you made it up and tried to foist it on me in your usual intellectually dishonest fashion. Do you think anyone falls for that sort of BS?

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 02:12 PM
Access to a good education is part of what makes it causal, as are connections

That theory ignores all the people who don't come from good families who get good educations. That should make you recheck your theory.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 02:13 PM
China also gives Chinese business money to sell goods at a loss.
China offers goods cheaper because it forces its citizens to make up the difference by working cheaply.

Mexico the pay is simply lower.

Less regulations would incentivize businesses to remain here, migrate here, and, for those already chases offshore and overseas, to return here. See thread on Index of Economic Freedom.


Of course our government could elect to regulate more even to the point like China to force workers to take less for their labor. Liberty's not that important, is it?

Chris
01-14-2016, 02:16 PM
China also gives Chinese business money to sell goods at a loss.

Which is taken from the Chinese people. It's all a lousy practice but I don't think we want to emulate it, or penalize American consumers to protect against it.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 03:02 PM
Which is taken from the Chinese people. It's all a lousy practice but I don't think we want to emulate it, or penalize American consumers to protect against it.


Disagree. Tariffs should be used to correct the illegal conduct. The US could also point out the problems with many of these Chinese products. Food stuffs (for humans and animals) that are dangerous. Goods that or poorly made. Etc.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 03:56 PM
Except I didn't make that claim now did I,


you did, you made it up and tried to foist it on me in your usual intellectually dishonest fashion. Do you think anyone falls for that sort of BS?

Not in those exact words because you have no coherent message - just unconnected thoughts.

but when you defend "competitive advantage" you are accepting our massive trade deficit and all the economic problems that brings to America.

Chris
01-14-2016, 04:02 PM
Not in those exact words because you have no coherent message - just unconnected thoughts.

but when defend "competitive advantage" you are accepting our massive trade deficit and all the economic problems that brings to America.


No I made no such claim whatsoever, not even in the least. You're back to your lying ways. Pathetic.


No, accepting comparative advantage does not imply accepting what you think it implies. And there you have it, you think it implies that, so you project your BS thinking onto me, and then have the gall to criticize me for your own stinking BS.


Like I said, your intellectually dishonest. I doubt anyone believes you much anymore. Wallow in your deceptions.

Chris
01-14-2016, 04:04 PM
Disagree. Tariffs should be used to correct the illegal conduct. The US could also point out the problems with many of these Chinese products. Food stuffs (for humans and animals) that are dangerous. Goods that or poorly made. Etc.

But it doesn't correct what the Chinese do. It doesn't penalize them at all, it penalizes those who consume their products and allows US manufacturers to raise their prices.

Defective products is another topic.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 05:47 PM
But it doesn't correct what the Chinese do. It doesn't penalize them at all, it penalizes those who consume their products and allows US manufacturers to raise their prices.

Defective products is another topic.


Allowing government supported products in the US destroys US manufacturers for that product. That is what happened to our solar panel industry.

And those that bought Chinese found out the panels only lasted about 3 years. So they didn't save money after all.

Chris
01-14-2016, 07:23 PM
Allowing government supported products in the US destroys US manufacturers for that product. That is what happened to our solar panel industry.

And those that bought Chinese found out the panels only lasted about 3 years. So they didn't save money after all.

But who should decide what I purchase? Me, or the government? And why should I be penalized for what the government decides about what it thinks unfair in Chinese policy? I'm just the little guy caught up in politics.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 07:33 PM
But who should decide what I purchase? Me, or the government? And why should I be penalized for what the government decides about what it thinks unfair in Chinese policy? I'm just the little guy caught up in politics.


The government has an interest in not having domestic industry fail because of dishonest trade practices.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 07:52 PM
No I made no such claim whatsoever, not even in the least. You're back to your lying ways. Pathetic.


No, accepting comparative advantage does not imply accepting what you think it implies. And there you have it, you think it implies that, so you project your BS thinking onto me, and then have the gall to criticize me for your own stinking BS.


Like I said, your intellectually dishonest. I doubt anyone believes you much anymore. Wallow in your deceptions.

Yes comparative advantage is the correct term

i know you wish your goofy theory did not lead to a massive trade deficit and the loss of good blue collar jobs in America but it does.

Chris
01-14-2016, 08:16 PM
Yes comparative advantage is the correct term

i know you wish your goofy theory did not lead to a massive trade deficit and the loss of good blue collar jobs in America but it does.


Qok, here's your chance to shine: Demonstrate that Adam Smith's/Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage caused "a massive trade deficit and the loss of good blue collar jobs in America."

I'll wait….

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 08:23 PM
Qok, here's your chance to shine: Demonstrate that Adam Smith's/Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage caused "a massive trade deficit and the loss of good blue collar jobs in America."

I'll wait….

After the US dropped trade protections in the 1990s under clintion we have lost millions of blue collar manufacturing jobs as factories moved to mexico or china.

Chris
01-14-2016, 08:28 PM
After the US dropped trade protections in the 1990s under clintion we have lost millions of blue collar manufacturing jobs as factories moved to mexico or china.

Demonstrate that Adam Smith's/Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage caused "a massive trade deficit and the loss of good blue collar jobs in America."

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 08:43 PM
Demonstrate that Adam Smith's/Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage caused "a massive trade deficit and the loss of good blue collar jobs in America."

And you mock me about free lessons?

free trade allows foreign companies to bring products to our market at a cheaper price that causes American factories to close.

If we still had tariffs on cheap imported products we would still be making stuff in America.

That is the answer in my own words.

If you want the textbook answer buy a textbook.

Chris
01-14-2016, 08:49 PM
And you mock me about free lessons?

free trade allows foreign companies to bring products to our market at a cheaper price that causes American factories to close.

If we still had tariffs on cheap imported products we would still be making stuff in America.

That is the answer in my own words.

If you want the textbook answer buy a textbook.



IOW, you can't, you're just blowing smoke.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 08:55 PM
IOW, you can't, you're just blowing smoke.

I answered your question but as usual you are in over your head

Chris
01-14-2016, 09:03 PM
I answered your question but as usual you are in over your head

You stated a selection of facts that might be called effects. You claimed comparative advantage was the cause of those effects. The question was could you demonstrate a causative relation. You failed miserably to do that.

Dr. Who
01-14-2016, 09:33 PM
What would an anarchist who does not vote know about reality?

if Americans use buggy whips we should make them here instead of importing them from china while American workers draw welfare?

Why that flies above your head is a mystery but makes sense to me.

Why pay Americans to do nothing as we must do in your alternate reality?If every manufacturing concern came back to America tomorrow, within 10 years there would still be no manufacturing jobs - they would all be automated. So the reality is that unskilled and semi-skilled labor is going to largely disappear in the not too distant future. That handwriting is painted on the wall in huge bold letters. Coming to grips with that reality is the beginning of really determining the future of the economy. In human terms, this is an even greater change than age of industrialization brought. There will be no place for people who are uneducated and unskilled.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 09:45 PM
If every manufacturing concern came back to America tomorrow, within 10 years there would still be no manufacturing jobs - they would all be automated. So the reality is that unskilled and semi-skilled labor is going to largely disappear in the not too distant future. That handwriting is painted on the wall in huge bold letters. Coming to grips with that reality is the beginning of really determining the future of the economy. In human terms, this is an even greater change than age of industrialization brought. There will be no place for people who are uneducated and unskilled.

Thats not true.

it is a prediction of some people.

But not a fact any more than tha man-made global warming hoax is going to lead to a starving planet.

Try 50 years or maybe longer and at least some of the automated society may happen.

in the meantime however low education workers are suffering because their factory jobs were exported to mexico and china.

the utopian dream of Star Trek where every person is highly educated is never going to happen.

Dr. Who
01-14-2016, 09:59 PM
Thats not true.

it is a prediction of some people.

But not a fact any more than tha man-made global warming hoax is going to lead to,a starving planet.

Try 50 years or maybe longer and at least some of that may happen.

in the meantime however low education workers are suffering because their factort jobs were exported to mexico and china.

the utopian dream of Star Trek where every person is highly educated is never going to happen.The only thing that is preventing the complete automation of 99% of all (large scale) manufacturing jobs now is the capital investment in equipment. As long as paying third worlders is cheaper than automating, business will continue to manufacture off shore. As the price of robotics drops, the number of people employed drops. Robotics are faster, more productive, consistent and don't have to eat or use the facilities. They don't get angry, sick or have bad days and they can be depreciated as equipment on taxes. A factory can replace 98% of their workforce by using robotics. The remaining 2% are the people who maintain the robotics. There are plants that are already there. As terrorism grows in the third world and starts targeting big business, you will see manufacturers come back to America, but don't hold out any great hope that it will translate to more employment because those robotics are still cheaper than payroll, pensions and benefits and every year that passes brings technological improvements. People just remain the same.

Peter1469
01-14-2016, 10:02 PM
The only thing that is preventing the complete automation of 99% of all (large scale) manufacturing jobs now is the capital investment in equipment. As long as paying third worlders is cheaper than automating, business will continue to manufacture off shore. As the price of robotics drops, the number of people employed drops. Robotics are faster, more productive, consistent and don't have to eat or use the facilities. They don't get angry, sick or have bad days and they can be depreciated as equipment on taxes. A factory can replace 98% of their workforce by using robotics. The remaining 2% are the people who maintain the robotics. There are plants that are already there. As terrorism grows in the third world and starts targeting big business, you will see manufacturers come back to America, but don't hold out any great hope that it will translate to more employment because those robotics are still cheaper than payroll, pensions and benefits and every year that passes brings technological improvements. People just remain the same.

Robots don't form unions....

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 10:40 PM
The only thing that is preventing the complete automation of 99% of all (large scale) manufacturing jobs now is the capital investment in equipment. As long as paying third worlders is cheaper than automating, business will continue to manufacture off shore. As the price of robotics drops, the number of people employed drops. Robotics are faster, more productive, consistent and don't have to eat or use the facilities. They don't get angry, sick or have bad days and they can be depreciated as equipment on taxes. A factory can replace 98% of their workforce by using robotics. The remaining 2% are the people who maintain the robotics. There are plants that are already there. As terrorism grows in the third world and starts targeting big business, you will see manufacturers come back to America, but don't hold out any great hope that it will translate to more employment because those robotics are still cheaper than payroll, pensions and benefits and every year that passes brings technological improvements. People just remain the same.

I wish we could have this conversation in 25 years when I could ask you why your futurist predictions didnt come true.

But it always sounds good on paper.

Dr. Who
01-14-2016, 11:06 PM
I wish we could have this conversation in 25 years when I could ask you why your futurist predictions didnt come true.

But it always sounds good on paper.
I actually hope that your are right. However, I really think that humanity has reached a major fork in the road, with one fork advancing man and one fork leading to incredible violence and societal collapse. If I am correct then there will have to be a fundamental change in how we live, work and what we do to find purpose in our lives.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 11:19 PM
I actually hope that your are right. However, I really think that humanity has reached a major fork in the road, with one fork advancing man and one fork leading to incredible violence and societal collapse. If I am correct then there will have to be a fundamental change in how we live, work and what we do to find purpose in our lives.

I hope i am right too.

but it wont make any difference if people pushing for open borders and free trade continue setting the agenda.

having all the jobs in china is jst as bad for American workers as converting all the jobs to robots

Dr. Who
01-14-2016, 11:37 PM
I hope i am right too.

but it wont make any difference if people pushing for open borders and free trade continue setting the agenda.

having all the jobs in china is jst as bad for American workers as converting all the jobs to robots
At the end of the day, the jobs in China will also disappear.

Mac-7
01-14-2016, 11:45 PM
At the end of the day, the jobs in China will also disappear.

Someday - maybe.

the futurists used to tell us everyone would have a flying car by now.

i dont know if the robots represent a dream or a nightmare to you but I respectfully think you dont know what ypu are talking about

not that it matters since you dont care if jobs stay in this country or not

Dr. Who
01-15-2016, 12:00 AM
Someday - maybe.

the futurists used to tell us everyone would have a flying car by now.

i dont know if the robots represent a dream or a nightmare to you but I respectfully think you dont know what ypu are talking about

not that it matters since you dont care if jobs stay in this country or not
Being realistic is not the same as not caring. Wishing, hoping and denying is not going to make a difference. Honesty and really addressing the changes are the only hope that we have. Now you can say I don't know what I'm talking about and that's fine. I'm not an expert and this is my opinion based on observation and reading, however, my own workplace has changed about 250 degrees since I started, and most of it in the last 10 years and I don't work in a factory. Fortunately for me, I have a natural affinity for technology that stems from a curious nature, so the transition has not been a problem. Others, not so much.

ThaiBoxer
01-15-2016, 12:07 AM
It's going to take time to bring our country back from the brink of Republican destruction.

Mac-7
01-15-2016, 05:05 AM
Being realistic is not the same as not caring. Wishing, hoping and denying is not going to make a difference. Honesty and really addressing the changes are the only hope that we have. Now you can say I don't know what I'm talking about and that's fine. I'm not an expert and this is my opinion based on observation and reading, however, my own workplace has changed about 250 degrees since I started, and most of it in the last 10 years and I don't work in a factory. Fortunately for me, I have a natural affinity for technology that stems from a curious nature, so the transition has not been a problem. Others, not so much.

My opinion is based on experience.

The future hardly ever evoles the way anyone predicts.

Least of all the recent opinions of what we call the best and brightest but who are in fact anything but.

I want to base current policy on current reality not what some brainiac at harvard imagines conditions will be in ten years.

In ten years manufacturing will look very much the same as it is today.

and American workers will still need those jobs to provide for their family and this country.

Peter1469
01-15-2016, 05:47 AM
It's going to take time to bring our country back from the brink of Republican destruction.

What are you going to do when your brainwashing wears off?

Chris
01-15-2016, 06:42 AM
If every manufacturing concern came back to America tomorrow, within 10 years there would still be no manufacturing jobs - they would all be automated. So the reality is that unskilled and semi-skilled labor is going to largely disappear in the not too distant future. That handwriting is painted on the wall in huge bold letters. Coming to grips with that reality is the beginning of really determining the future of the economy. In human terms, this is an even greater change than age of industrialization brought. There will be no place for people who are uneducated and unskilled.

Right, there are other factors at play here that a theory causing manufacturing job loss. Automation one, though I don't share your fears. Another factor, as seen in the Index, is the increase in regulation and taxation driving business away. And finally there is the Great Recession, from which many counties may never recover--see report elsewhere.

Chris
01-15-2016, 06:46 AM
I hope i am right too.

but it wont make any difference if people pushing for open borders and free trade continue setting the agenda.

having all the jobs in china is jst as bad for American workers as converting all the jobs to robots

And yet we do not have open borders or free trade. GM, for example, moved a lot of its operations to China to escape USregulation and taxation and partner with Chinese companies.

Mac-7
01-15-2016, 08:45 AM
And yet we do not have open borders or free trade. GM, for example, moved a lot of its operations to China to escape USregulation and taxation and partner with Chinese companies.

If we placed a 45% tariff for instance on ObamaMobiles imported from china GM would be forced to move jobs back to America.

Chris
01-15-2016, 09:26 AM
If we placed a 45% tariff for instance on ObamaMobiles imported from china GM would be forced to move jobs back to America.

Why's that? Explain. Make sure to mention who pays the 45% tariff, you know, you and me and other American consumers. I'd say you must hate Americans but you probably don't think consequences out that far, typical of liberal progressives' feel-good policies.

texan
01-15-2016, 11:37 AM
Many economists say that if we just lower our corp tax rate and make sure everyone pays it to 15% this tariff nonsense would be moot. It tax rate would take care of it all.

Truth Detector
01-15-2016, 12:13 PM
It's going to take time to bring our country back from the brink of Republican destruction.

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t542/apple-sauce38/Positive%20Reactions/laughing/biglaugh7_zpsd701e485.gif

Longer still to reeducate the idiots we are currently graduating from our liberal educational indoctrination establishments.

Truth Detector
01-15-2016, 12:15 PM
Many economists say that if we just lower our corp tax rate and make sure everyone pays it to 15% this tariff nonsense would be moot. It tax rate would take care of it all.

Corporate tax rates are a misnomer; they are a tax on the consumers. Corporations don't pay taxes. They are merely tax collectors for the Government.

Truth Detector
01-15-2016, 12:16 PM
Stock market is tanking today....already down 421 points. We're back to where we were in 2008.

Subdermal
01-15-2016, 12:33 PM
Stock market is tanking today....already down 421 points. We're back to where we were in 2008.

It is my belief that we've seen the highs of the market for the next 5 years. I am very happy my gut told me to pull out of market entirely in early June.

Truth Detector
01-15-2016, 12:37 PM
It is my belief that we've seen the highs of the market for the next 5 years. I am very happy my gut told me to pull out of market entirely in early June.

Down 528 now.

Truth Detector
01-15-2016, 12:44 PM
It is my belief that we've seen the highs of the market for the next 5 years. I am very happy my gut told me to pull out of market entirely in early June.

I stand corrected, the peak before the Obama Presidency was 14,164.43. Dow is now down 502 now.

We are heading backwards and this is a much needed correction. I too sold off in 2014, but it as to invest in something else.

ThaiBoxer
01-15-2016, 02:43 PM
What are you going to do when your brainwashing wears off?

You deny Bush and his Republican Congress left this country in a mess?

ThaiBoxer
01-15-2016, 02:44 PM
Longer still to reeducate the idiots we are currently graduating from our liberal educational indoctrination establishments.

Blah blah blah you guys always use that excuse. If you don't believe in conservative dogma you must be getting brainwashed at college. LOL Maybe if you actually had an education you could think for yourself too and realize how wrong you are about so many things.

Mac-7
01-15-2016, 02:47 PM
Why's that? Explain. Make sure to mention who pays the 45% tariff, you know, you and me and other American consumers. I'd say you must hate Americans but you probably don't think consequences out that far, typical of liberal progressives' feel-good policies.

A 45% tariff would make Buicks made in China too expensive to sell in America.

Consumers pay the taxes and tariffs.

Everyone knows that.

Only conceited libs like you think you are the only ones who know anything.

Chris
01-15-2016, 03:01 PM
A 45% tariff would make Buicks made in China too expensive to sell in America.

Consumers pay the taxes and tariffs.

Everyone knows that.

Only conceited libs like you think you are the only ones who know anything.


A 45% tariff would allow US carmakers to raise their prices that much. That's what happens with tariffs.


At least I can explain what I claim to know, unlike you who makes causative claims but cannot explain it.

Mac-7
01-15-2016, 03:08 PM
A 45% tariff would allow US carmakers to raise their prices that much. That's what happens with tariffs.


At least I can explain what I claim to know, unlike you who makes causative claims but cannot explain it.

maybe.

But the workers would be Americans and the economic impact of half a trillion dollars remaining America instead of going to china would be enormously positive

Peter1469
01-15-2016, 04:17 PM
You deny Bush and his Republican Congress left this country in a mess?


The banking and housing market crashes were decades in the making. A bipartisan effort.

Chris
01-15-2016, 04:25 PM
maybe.

But the workers would be Americans and the economic impact of half a trillion dollars remaining America instead of going to china would be enormously positive


At the expense of American consumers. That'll make those damned Chinese think twice!!

SO who gains here, a few multibillion multi-national car makers like Ford, Chevy, Dodge?

Mac-7
01-15-2016, 04:51 PM
At the expense of American consumers

not really.

people who are on welfare or working dead end service jobs consume very little.

if they had a good job in manufacturing they could get off welfare and afford to consume more.

as for the other consumers they are taxed to pay for the supplimental welfare of low wage walmart workers and outright welfare bums so that cheap iPhone is not so cheap after all.

Chris
01-15-2016, 05:09 PM
not really.

people who are on welfare or working dead end service jobs consume very little.

if they had a good job in manufacturing they could get off welfare and afford to consume more.

as for the other consumers they are taxed to pay for the supplimental welfare of low wage walmart workers and outright welfare bums so that cheap iPhone is not so cheap after all.

And you want to tax them more with tariffs.

Who? The already dwindling middle class.

MisterVeritis
01-15-2016, 05:11 PM
At the expense of American consumers. That'll make those damned Chinese think twice!!

SO who gains here, a few multibillion multi-national car makers like Ford, Chevy, Dodge?
You are behaving as if people are not sensitive to price.

Dr. Who
01-15-2016, 05:22 PM
A 45% tariff would allow US carmakers to raise their prices that much. That's what happens with tariffs.


At least I can explain what I claim to know, unlike you who makes causative claims but cannot explain it.
Why would US car makers make their product less saleable by raising prices just because they can?

Mac-7
01-15-2016, 06:17 PM
And you want to tax them more with tariffs.

Who? The already dwindling middle class.

The middle class is shrinking because we have exported our manufacturing jobs to china

Adelaide
01-15-2016, 06:27 PM
Why would US car makers make their product less saleable by raising prices just because they can?

Especially when they perform so well already (sarcasm).

texan
01-15-2016, 07:03 PM
Corporate tax rates are a misnomer; they are a tax on the consumers. Corporations don't pay taxes. They are merely tax collectors for the Government.

That is why I said make sure everyone pays it.

texan
01-15-2016, 07:07 PM
Cry socialism as the reason, then explain why many of the countries above the US have more socialist elements than the US. Including Canada.

You are pointing the problem out in your post and don't realize it.

Chris
01-15-2016, 07:49 PM
Cry socialism as the reason, then explain why many of the countries above the US have more socialist elements than the US. Including Canada.

Actually the opposite is true. Canada, for instance, is less socialistic that the US.

Dr. Who
01-15-2016, 08:18 PM
Actually the opposite is true. Canada, for instance, is less socialistic that the US.
Canadian socialism is better managed, not so schizophrenic. This is an old article, but what it says makes sense, notwithstanding the current recessionary trend in Canada as a result of the drop in oil prices:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2012-07-15/hardheaded-socialism-makes-canada-richer-than-u-s-

MisterVeritis
01-15-2016, 08:59 PM
Why would US car makers make their product less saleable by raising prices just because they can?
Your sentence makes no sense. Those who sell any good or service will charge as much as they can for what they are selling. A buyer will pay the least possible amount for the good or service they want. If a seller can raise the price they will do so. If a buyer can pay any less they will do so.

Dr. Who
01-15-2016, 09:09 PM
Your sentence makes no sense. Those who sell any good or service will charge as much as they can for what they are selling. A buyer will pay the least possible amount for the good or service they want. If a seller can raise the price they will do so. If a buyer can pay any less they will do so.
If you are competing on a global market and within a domestic market for sales, raising your prices for no particular reason just eliminates buyers. If Chinese cars were tagged with a 45% tariff, they would become uncompetitive. The domestic car market would not respond by making their own product less competitive or less affordable. The last thing they would want is people keeping their old cars longer. They would rejoice in cornering more of the market.

MisterVeritis
01-15-2016, 09:20 PM
If you are competing on a global market and within a domestic market for sales, raising your prices for no particular reason just eliminates buyers. If Chinese cars were tagged with a 45% tariff, they would become uncompetitive. The domestic car market would not respond by making their own product less competitive or less affordable. The last thing they would want is people keeping their old cars longer. They would rejoice in cornering more of the market.
If more of their cars are being sold they can raise the price.

The key point behind the punitive tariff against the Chinese involves their currency manipulations. It is to pressure them to stop.

MisterVeritis
01-15-2016, 09:23 PM
Canadian socialism is better managed, not so schizophrenic. This is an old article, but what it says makes sense, notwithstanding the current recessionary trend in Canada as a result of the drop in oil prices:

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2012-07-15/hardheaded-socialism-makes-canada-richer-than-u-s-
I think what this shows is that socialism does exactly what it is intended to do. It drives us all toward a uniform level of poverty. We are broke. The numbers are starting to prove it.

Dr. Who
01-15-2016, 09:27 PM
If more of their cars are being sold they can raise the price.

The key point behind the punitive tariff against the Chinese involves their currency manipulations. It is to pressure them to stop.
Excluding the Chinese doesn't remove all competition, nor does it change economic conditions.

Mac-7
01-18-2016, 07:31 AM
If you are competing on a global market and within a domestic market for sales, raising your prices for no particular reason just eliminates buyers. If Chinese cars were tagged with a 45% tariff, they would become uncompetitive. The domestic car market would not respond by making their own product less competitive or less affordable. The last thing they would want is people keeping their old cars longer. They would rejoice in cornering more of the market.

You talk as if there is only one car company in America when in fact GM and Ford are competing against each other.

one car company cannot suddenly begin building junk without losing sales to their competators

what the tariff would do is move manufacturing back to America and employ more American workers.