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Chris
01-20-2016, 08:57 AM
Bernie Sanders’ Health Care Plan Proves That U.S. Single-Payer is an Expensive Fantasy (http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/19/bernie-sanders-health-care-plan-proves-t) reports Sander's single payer healthcare plan will cost "$1.38 trillion—trillion! with a T!—in additional federal spending every single year." He will pay for it by doing away with private insurance and redirecting premiums to taxes raised on upper and middle class.

Single payer is likely where we're headed. It is going to be expensive. Another government solution that creates more problems.

Common Sense
01-20-2016, 09:04 AM
Weird, Canada has universal healthcare run by the provinces and we end up spending a smaller percentage of our GDP. How could Canada do it and not the US?

Cigar
01-20-2016, 09:14 AM
Weird, Canada has universal healthcare run by the provinces and we end up spending a smaller percentage of our GDP. How could Canada do it and not the US?

You don't Republicans putting up roadblocks

TBed by OP.

Matty
01-20-2016, 09:17 AM
Single payer in the US means every single person in the US will have to pay taxes. The Democrats do not want that. According to the article that is 1.38Trillion extra dollars added to the budget.

Chris
01-20-2016, 09:24 AM
Weird, Canada has universal healthcare run by the provinces and we end up spending a smaller percentage of our GDP. How could Canada do it and not the US?

You just stated an important difference: Sander's plan calls for a federal single payer, , Canada's is provincially decentralized.

Also, how one pays is an administrative issue, it doesn't address the cost or quality of health care.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 10:11 AM
Bernie Sanders’ Health Care Plan Proves That U.S. Single-Payer is an Expensive Fantasy (http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/19/bernie-sanders-health-care-plan-proves-t) reports Sander's single payer healthcare plan will cost "$1.38 trillion—trillion! with a T!—in additional federal spending every single year." He will pay for it by doing away with private insurance and redirecting premiums to taxes raised on upper and middle class.

Single payer is likely where we're headed. It is going to be expensive. Another government solution that creates more problems.

I believe the $1.38 trillion is a gross underestimate. How is it where we are likely headed??

Chris
01-20-2016, 10:13 AM
I believe the $1.38 trillion is a gross underestimate. How is it where we are likely headed??

It us both popular and populist--Sanders bring the populist against establishment Clinton who came out against his plan.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 10:14 AM
Weird, Canada has universal healthcare run by the provinces and we end up spending a smaller percentage of our GDP. How could Canada do it and not the US?

....with shortages of specialized medicine, long wait times for even basic care and much higher tax rates.

Canada controls costs by severely limiting how much physicians can charge. This is why there are shortages and long wait times.

Canadians have been government sheeple for a very long time.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 10:15 AM
It us both popular and populist--Sanders bring the populist against establishment Clinton who came out against his plan.

Do you have anything to support the idea that it is popular outside of the far left Liberals who thnk everything should be freeeeeeee?

Chris
01-20-2016, 10:19 AM
Do you have anything to support the idea that it is popular outside of the far left Liberals who thnk everything should be freeeeeeee?

You're making assertions without anything to back them up so I'll wait on you.

texan
01-20-2016, 11:02 AM
No one has or can answer this for me....

Bernie said on Nov 20th that republicans are being shut up and are in fear that Obamacare is working.

Okay Bernie, if that is true why are you running around saying 29 million people are without HC? That is the promise made by Obamacare supporters that we would cover these people. The number was always tossed out between 30 and 40 million needed to be covered. Ocare has about 10 mil.

So is it working and your plan isn't needed or is it not and your plan is needed?


Bernie playin games on this one!

The facts are gonna burn you democrats that support this so lets get into it....

Chris
01-20-2016, 11:14 AM
No one has or can answer this for me....

Bernie said on Nov 20th that republicans are being shut up and are in fear that Obamacare is working.

Okay Bernie, if that is true why are you running around saying 29 million people are without HC? That is the promise made by Obamacare supporters that we would cover these people. The number was always tossed out between 30 and 40 million needed to be covered. Ocare has about 10 mil.

So is it working and your plan isn't needed or is it not and your plan is needed?


Bernie playin games on this one!

The facts are gonna burn you democrats that support this so lets get into it....

I think what happened is Sanders said he had a better plan when he didn't and so he cobbled together this trillion dollar monster.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 11:18 AM
It us both popular and populist--Sanders bring the populist against establishment Clinton who came out against his plan.


Do you have anything to support the idea that it is popular outside of the far left Liberals who thnk everything should be freeeeeeee?


You're making assertions without anything to back them up so I'll wait on you.

Seriously? YOU made the claim "It us both popular and populist"; I am asking where you get that information. It is not up to me to disprove YOUR claim; good Lord.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 11:20 AM
No one has or can answer this for me....

Bernie said on Nov 20th that republicans are being shut up and are in fear that Obamacare is working.

Okay Bernie, if that is true why are you running around saying 29 million people are without HC? That is the promise made by Obamacare supporters that we would cover these people. The number was always tossed out between 30 and 40 million needed to be covered. Ocare has about 10 mil.

So is it working and your plan isn't needed or is it not and your plan is needed?

Bernie playin games on this one!

The facts are gonna burn you democrats that support this so lets get into it....

Bernie, as is typical with most leftists, is lying on this one. But remember, in Liberal loony land, it is okay to LIE when it is about how much you care more than anyone else on the planet.

Let's also remember that leftists love centralized control; but only if THEIR guys are running the show.

onecut
01-20-2016, 11:28 AM
You're making assertions without anything to back them up so I'll wait on you.


You have backed uyp none of yours.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 11:32 AM
You're making assertions without anything to back them up so I'll wait on you.


You have backed uyp none of yours.

Ironic isn't it?

TBed by OP.

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 11:35 AM
Some inconvenient truths about Canada's healthcare system:

No such thing as "free health care" in Canada

The notion of "free health care" seems to have gained cult-like status in Canada. This is perplexing given that provincial/territorial government spending on health care (including federal transfers) accounted for 7.1 per cent ($141 billion) of the Canadian economy in 2014. And yet, time and again, people tout the zero dollar price-tag.
.................

To help inform such discussions, we used publically available tax and health-care expenditure data to calculate how much different types of families will pay for public health-care insurance this year.

We estimate that the average Canadian family (two parents, two children) earning $119,082 will pay $11,735 for public health-care insurance in 2015. Meanwhile, a single individual earning $42,244 will pay $4,222.
...........

While Canadians routinely experience the good and bad of our health care system, it can be hard to measure those experiences against their annual contributions to the system because of the murky manner in which it is funded.

At the very least, our estimates provide us with an important reminder that Canada's health-care system is not "free."

- Barua is a senior economist in the Fraser Institute's Centre for Health Policy Studies. Palacios is a Fraser Institute senior research economist. Courtesy

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/08/22/no-such-thing-as-free-health-care-in-canada

Chris
01-20-2016, 11:38 AM
You have backed uyp none of yours.

The liberal response is positive. For another, we already have Obamacare. Finally, just giving my opinion-- do you have one?

Truth Detector
01-20-2016, 11:38 AM
The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
Socialized medicine has meant rationed care and lack of innovation. Small wonder Canadians are looking to the market.
...........

I was once a believer in socialized medicine. I don’t want to overstate my case: growing up in Canada, I didn’t spend much time contemplating the nuances of health economics. I wanted to get into medical school—my mind brimmed with statistics on MCAT scores and admissions rates, not health spending. But as a Canadian, I had soaked up three things from my environment: a love of ice hockey; an ability to convert Celsius into Fahrenheit in my head; and the belief that government-run health care was truly compassionate. What I knew about American health care was unappealing: high expenses and lots of uninsured people. When HillaryCare shook Washington, I remember thinking that the Clintonistas were right.

My health-care prejudices crumbled not in the classroom but on the way to one. On a subzero Winnipeg morning in 1997, I cut across the hospital emergency room to shave a few minutes off my frigid commute. Swinging open the door, I stepped into a nightmare: the ER overflowed with elderly people on stretchers, waiting for admission. Some, it turned out, had waited five days. The air stank with sweat and urine. Right then, I began to reconsider everything that I thought I knew about Canadian health care. I soon discovered that the problems went well beyond overcrowded ERs. Patients had to wait for practically any diagnostic test or procedure, such as the man with persistent pain from a hernia operation whom we referred to a pain clinic—with a three-year wait list; or the woman needing a sleep study to diagnose what seemed like sleep apnea, who faced a two-year delay; or the woman with breast cancer who needed to wait four months for radiation therapy, when the standard of care was four weeks.
.....................
But single-payer systems—confronting dirty hospitals, long waiting lists, and substandard treatment—are starting to crack. Today my book wouldn’t seem so provocative to Canadians, whose views on public health care are much less rosy than they were even a few years ago. Canadian newspapers are now filled with stories of people frustrated by long delays for care:

vow broken on cancer wait times: most hospitals across canada fail to meet ottawa’s four-week guideline for radiation
patients wait as p.e.t. scans used in animal experiments
back patients waiting years for treatment: study
the doctor is . . . out

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

onecut
01-20-2016, 11:39 AM
Bernie Sanders’ Health Care Plan Proves That U.S. Single-Payer is an Expensive Fantasy (http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/19/bernie-sanders-health-care-plan-proves-t) reports Sander's single payer healthcare plan will cost "$1.38 trillion—trillion! with a T!—in additional federal spending every single year." He will pay for it by doing away with private insurance and redirecting premiums to taxes raised on upper and middle class.

Single payer is likely where we're headed. It is going to be expensive. Another government solution that creates more problems.

Please explain why every single payer tax plan in the world is cheaper than our commercial system. It costing us almost twice as much as the next most expensive system...................................the Swiss?

texan
01-20-2016, 11:59 AM
Still no one can answer my Bernie question..............Okay we all know it can't be answered because one would look foolish.

Chris
01-20-2016, 01:14 PM
Please explain why every single payer tax plan in the world is cheaper than our commercial system. It costing us almost twice as much as the next most expensive system...................................the Swiss?

The cost of healthcare is rising just as fast for socualuzed systems.

Part of the reason the US is higher is Medicare and Crosby capitalism like regional pricing for pharmaceuticals.

Peter1469
01-20-2016, 05:05 PM
The US also spends a lot more on end life care than other nations. That would be something that would be greatly cut back on under single payer.

Chris
01-20-2016, 06:37 PM
And, quite simply, the US is richer.

Green Arrow
01-20-2016, 06:52 PM
Bernie Sanders’ Health Care Plan Proves That U.S. Single-Payer is an Expensive Fantasy (http://reason.com/blog/2016/01/19/bernie-sanders-health-care-plan-proves-t) reports Sander's single payer healthcare plan will cost "$1.38 trillion—trillion! with a T!—in additional federal spending every single year." He will pay for it by doing away with private insurance and redirecting premiums to taxes raised on upper and middle class.

Single payer is likely where we're headed. It is going to be expensive. Another government solution that creates more problems.

The article is either deliberately misrepresenting the information or unintentionally misread it. For starters, we already spend around $3 trillion a year on healthcare. Bernie's plan wouldn't add an extra $1.38 trillion every year, it would replace that expenditure with the new expenditure. So instead of spending $4.38 trillion a year like the article claims, we'd just be spending $1.38 trillion a year, which is almost $2 trillion less than what we're spending on healthcare now.

Chris
01-20-2016, 07:28 PM
The article is either deliberately misrepresenting the information or unintentionally misread it. For starters, we already spend around $3 trillion a year on healthcare. Bernie's plan wouldn't add an extra $1.38 trillion every year, it would replace that expenditure with the new expenditure. So instead of spending $4.38 trillion a year like the article claims, we'd just be spending $1.38 trillion a year, which is almost $2 trillion less than what we're spending on healthcare now.

The article explains how taxes would replace private insurance premiums.

Sounds great if you want the government making your personal medical decisions.

Green Arrow
01-20-2016, 08:06 PM
The article explains how taxes would replace private insurance premiums.

Sounds great if you want the government making your personal medical decisions.

Government isn't making your personal medical decisions, it's just helping you pay for your medical decisions.

Chris
01-20-2016, 08:08 PM
Government isn't making your personal medical decisions, it's just helping you pay for your medical decisions.

With other people's money. No thanks, I prefer to be free to make those decisions.

Tahuyaman
01-20-2016, 08:14 PM
The US also spends a lot more on end life care than other nations. That would be something that would be greatly cut back on under single payer.

Not intending to be disrespectful, but..... Duh.

Green Arrow
01-20-2016, 08:49 PM
With other people's money. No thanks, I prefer to be free to make those decisions.

Again...you're free to make whatever decision you want WRT healthcare. You'll just have help paying for it.

And it's not "other people's money." Everyone pays taxes and those taxes fund everyone's healthcare. So in essence you are paying for your own healthcare.

Chris
01-20-2016, 08:52 PM
Again...you're free to make whatever decision you want WRT healthcare. You'll just have help paying for it.

And it's not "other people's money." Everyone pays taxes and those taxes fund everyone's healthcare. So in essence you are paying for your own healthcare.

Right. That's like Keynes saying we're not in debt because afterall we owe ourselves the debt. Got to love collectivist thinking.

Green Arrow
01-20-2016, 08:55 PM
Right. That's like Keynes saying we're not in debt because afterall we owe ourselves the debt. Got to love collectivist thinking.

Uhm...no, it's not like saying that at all, but whatever. If you'd rather poison the well than carry on a discussion I'll just bow out.

Chris
01-20-2016, 09:01 PM
Uhm...no, it's not like saying that at all, but whatever. If you'd rather poison the well than carry on a discussion I'll just bow out.

Nice rhetorical tactic but the truth is you want individual choices planned centrally by the federal government. I prefer liberty.

Green Arrow
01-20-2016, 09:04 PM
Nice rhetorical tactic but the truth is you want individual choices planned centrally by the federal government. I prefer liberty.

Poisoning the well it is, then. I was expecting better from you and am rather disappointed.

TBed by OP.

Matty
01-20-2016, 09:14 PM
Uhm...no, it's not like saying that at all, but whatever. If you'd rather poison the well than carry on a discussion I'll just bow out.


You were dishonest when you said everyone pays taxes. You know good and well that 50% of Americans pay no Federal Taxes.

Chris
01-20-2016, 09:16 PM
You were dishonest when you said everyone pays taxes. You know good and well that 50% of Americans pay no Federal Taxes.

Beside the point.

Matty
01-20-2016, 09:19 PM
Beside the point.


Well, since Federal Funds would fund a single payer, I hardly think it's beside the point. It is the point.

silvereyes
01-21-2016, 03:21 AM
You were dishonest when you said everyone pays taxes. You know good and well that 50% of Americans pay no Federal Taxes.
Which 50% would that be?

Peter1469
01-21-2016, 05:15 AM
Which 50% would that be?

Check out the tax tables. It is very easy to find out.

Tahuyaman
01-21-2016, 01:41 PM
You were dishonest when you said everyone pays taxes. You know good and well that 50% of Americans pay no Federal Taxes.


Well, everyone does pay taxes in some form. Sales tax, property tax, etc. but yes, nearly half of the earners in American pay zero federal income tax and they are the ones complaining the loudest about how they are being treated unfairly by the current federal income tax system.

Tahuyaman
01-21-2016, 01:43 PM
Check out the tax tables. It is very easy to find out.

some people need to have that information spoon fed to them, or they won't believe it.

Peter1469
01-21-2016, 01:44 PM
some people need to have that information spoon fed to them, or they won't believe it.

They can wallow in their ignorance. I don't spoon feed adults.

Chris
01-22-2016, 08:44 AM
Sander's promises are nothing new…


…He's hardly unique in pretending we can all get everything we want for a pittance. George W. Bush did the same thing in pushing a new program of Medicare prescription drug coverage without raising payroll taxes to pay for it. It cost the government $78 billion in 2014—only 15 percent of which was covered by premiums from seniors.

When Barack Obama proposed the Affordable Care Act, Republicans charged it would hurt retirees by robbing $700 billion from Medicare. Never mind that the health care plan offered by Rep. Paul Ryan, now speaker, included the same savings from Medicare.

The GOP charge was unfair, but the administration was equally deceptive in claiming that the economies would be wrung out of private insurers and hospitals, at no inconvenience to patients. That's like saying that if you require utilities to take expensive steps to clean up pollution, consumers won't end up paying more.

Obamacare was also supposed to provide more for less—requiring health policies, for example, to cover an array of preventive services at no cost to the patient. This type of coverage, the president insisted, "saves money, and it saves lives." More fantasy: Rutgers economist Louise Russell has found that four out of five preventive options save less than they cost.

Both parties have long operated on the assumption that, as Oscar Wilde put it, "Nothing succeeds like excess." The United States has the most expensive health care in the world because Americans refuse to take "no" for an answer. Sanders won't ask them to.

@ http://reason.com/archives/2016/01/21/the-fiction-behind-sanders-health-plan