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View Full Version : We must end the Drug War!



Mister D
02-01-2016, 08:48 PM
Knock yourself out, donttread .

Dr. Who
02-01-2016, 09:09 PM
Following Mister D's response to Donttread:

Start a thread about it. We'll discuss but, again, because something works in Portugal, for example, it is not safe to assume it will work here. Your reasoning is poor.

How well did alcohol prohibition work in America? It would seem that the same issues that followed alcohol prohibition have manifested in drug prohibition. The rapid growth of a criminal underworld, violence, wars between criminal enterprise - think of all of the stories about Elliot Ness, but multiply them exponentially, because drugs don't take the physical space to transport and people don't need speakeasies to consume them. It is history repeating itself.

Mister D
02-01-2016, 09:12 PM
I tend to agree. At least pot should be legalized. That's a waste of time and resources. Undecided about harder drugs.

Dr. Who
02-01-2016, 09:37 PM
I tend to agree. At least pot should be legalized. That's a waste of time and resources. Undecided about harder drugs.
I think that making something illegal keeps away the people who wouldn't have bothered with it anyway, but attracts the rebels, especially kids who see it as a right of passage to defy the authoritarian rules. It certainly doesn't stop those who want party drugs. Trying to ban a plant is worse than useless. You could have an IQ of 70 and grow marijuana, so there is no real way to absolutely eliminate it anymore than you can eliminate dandelions. I think that we can replace the hard drugs with pharmaceuticals designed to provide the high, without the addiction or the gross danger. Big Pharma just needs the mandate and they will be all over it.

Mister D
02-01-2016, 09:44 PM
I think that making something illegal keeps away the people who wouldn't have bothered with it anyway, but attracts the rebels, especially kids who see it as a right of passage to defy the authoritarian rules. It certainly doesn't stop those who want party drugs. Trying to ban a plant is worse than useless. You could have an IQ of 70 and grow marijuana, so there is no real way to absolutely eliminate it anymore than you can eliminate dandelions. I think that we can replace the hard drugs with pharmaceuticals designed to provide the high, without the addiction or the gross danger. Big Pharma just needs the mandate and they will be all over it.

I think that's true for alcohol and weed. Not so much for harder drugs. That's because, IMO, Drug War propaganda has succeeded in creating a very negative impression of some drugs, particularly heroin, in the mind of the average person. I can't say that's a bad thing either.

LOL Yeah, that's probably true about BP. That said, we don't ever seem to ask ourselves why so many of us want to escape reality.

Peter1469
02-01-2016, 09:44 PM
I think that making something illegal keeps away the people who wouldn't have bothered with it anyway, but attracts the rebels, especially kids who see it as a right of passage to defy the authoritarian rules. It certainly doesn't stop those who want party drugs. Trying to ban a plant is worse than useless. You could have an IQ of 70 and grow marijuana, so there is no real way to absolutely eliminate it anymore than you can eliminate dandelions. I think that we can replace the hard drugs with pharmaceuticals designed to provide the high, without the addiction or the gross danger. Big Pharma just needs the mandate and they will be all over it.

The addiction comes with the high. And much of what Big Pharma pushes today is addictive.

Green Arrow
02-01-2016, 09:53 PM
I think that making something illegal keeps away the people who wouldn't have bothered with it anyway, but attracts the rebels, especially kids who see it as a right of passage to defy the authoritarian rules. It certainly doesn't stop those who want party drugs. Trying to ban a plant is worse than useless. You could have an IQ of 70 and grow marijuana, so there is no real way to absolutely eliminate it anymore than you can eliminate dandelions. I think that we can replace the hard drugs with pharmaceuticals designed to provide the high, without the addiction or the gross danger. Big Pharma just needs the mandate and they will be all over it.

Nah, Big Pharma would never create something that wasn't addictive. Get addicted, they get even more money out of you.

Dr. Who
02-01-2016, 09:55 PM
The addiction comes with the high. And much of what Big Pharma pushes today is addictive.
They are not really trying not to make it addictive. They are not creating party drugs, but painkillers. They can have fun with canniboids and make drugs for entertainment.

Dr. Who
02-01-2016, 09:59 PM
Nah, Big Pharma would never create something that wasn't addictive. Get addicted, they get even more money out of you.
Depends on the mandate. They would make a huge fortune from non-addictive party drugs. People could use them indefinitely without major addiction issues or societal condemnation. They have just never been requested to give people something that doesn't have a medical purpose and doctor administered cycle of prescriptions.

Mister D
02-01-2016, 10:06 PM
Dr. Who :grin: remember the spores episode?

This Side of Paradise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_YnNCBt8c

Green Arrow
02-01-2016, 10:14 PM
@Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612) :grin: remember the spores episode?

This Side of Paradise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_YnNCBt8c

That was actually one of my favorite TOS episodes.

Mister D
02-01-2016, 10:16 PM
That was actually one of my favorite TOS episodes.

I haven't watched one in ages. Yeah, good show.

Dr. Who
02-01-2016, 10:22 PM
@Dr. Who (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=612) :grin: remember the spores episode?

This Side of Paradise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_YnNCBt8c
I don't think that Big Pharma is as yet as advanced as an alien entity that can induce a perfect euphoria and turn the entire human race into flower children, although if it were possible, a few million tons of that drug (spores) might be useful in the ME.

Green Arrow
02-01-2016, 10:25 PM
I haven't watched one in ages. Yeah, good show.

Much too short-lived, even if TNG is still my favorite.

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:01 AM
Knock yourself out, @donttread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=922) .


Yes we must. There is real world evidence that decriminalization works and zero modern evidence that prohibition does. We have become the most incarcerated society on earth, while drug availability has sky rocketed. The war on drugs has been a failure for decades , but then our government is exceptionally good at continuing, even re dedicating to failed policy.

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 06:03 AM
Yes we must. There is real world evidence that decriminalization works and zero modern evidence that prohibition does. We have become the most incarcerated society on earth, while drug availability has sky rocketed. The war on drugs has been a failure for decades , but then our government is exceptionally good at continuing, even re dedicating to failed policy.

We also know that rehab, where appropriate, works much better than simple warehouse style incarceration.

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:03 AM
The addiction comes with the high. And much of what Big Pharma pushes today is addictive.

Big Pharma , now prohibition has been very successful for them

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 06:04 AM
Big Pharma , now prohibition has been very successful for them

They target the exact same receptors in the brain.

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:06 AM
They are not really trying not to make it addictive. They are not creating party drugs, but painkillers. They can have fun with canniboids and make drugs for entertainment.


They sure aren't trying to make their products non-addictive either

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 06:07 AM
They are not really trying not to make it addictive. They are not creating party drugs, but painkillers. They can have fun with canniboids and make drugs for entertainment.

To believe that, we must believe that they don't know how addiction works.

Want to discuss specific drugs?

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:18 AM
We also know that rehab, where appropriate, works much better than simple warehouse style incarceration.

Exactly, treating addiction as a medical problem instead of a legal problem works. It works because addiction IS a medical problem

Ravens Fan
02-02-2016, 11:49 AM
14026

Matty
02-02-2016, 11:56 AM
Well we legalized alcohol and look at the innocent people who die yearly from drunk drivers. Makes great sense now to add more impaired drivers by legalizing drugs. God help the innocents because sure as fuck no one else will. It's murder.

Common Sense
02-02-2016, 11:59 AM
Well we legalized alcohol and look at the innocent people who die yearly from drunk drivers. Makes great sense now to add more impaired drivers by legalizing drugs. God help the innocents because sure as fuck no one else will. It's murder.

So you don't ever have a drink?

kilgram
02-02-2016, 12:57 PM
We also know that rehab, where appropriate, works much better than simple warehouse style incarceration.
You surprises me positively here.

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Green Arrow
02-02-2016, 01:00 PM
Well we legalized alcohol and look at the innocent people who die yearly from drunk drivers. Makes great sense now to add more impaired drivers by legalizing drugs. God help the innocents because sure as fuck no one else will. It's murder.

The 1920s called, they want their absurdity back.

Crepitus
02-02-2016, 01:19 PM
They are not really trying not to make it addictive. They are not creating party drugs, but painkillers. They can have fun with canniboids and make drugs for entertainment.
Maybe they can make something that isn't physically addictive, but mentally? I doubt it.

Matty
02-02-2016, 01:20 PM
The 1920s called, they want their absurdity back.


Yeah? So why did you think legalizing cut down on drunk driving deaths? Be wonderful to hear that reasoning.

kilgram
02-02-2016, 01:25 PM
Yeah? So why did you think legalizing cut down on drunk driving deaths? Be wonderful to hear rhat reasoning.
Education. And the consequences of the ban are much worse. Do you want to go back to the gangs of the 20s?

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Matty
02-02-2016, 01:26 PM
Education. And the consequences of the ban are much worse. Do you want to go back to the gangs of the 20s?

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk


Drunk driving.

kilgram
02-02-2016, 01:41 PM
Drunk driving.
Secondary. Education. Worse are the consequences of the ban.

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Matty
02-02-2016, 01:43 PM
Secondary. Education. Worse are the consequences of the ban.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk


What are the consequences of the ban as compared to ten thousand deaths per year aka murders caused by drunk drivers?

Green Arrow
02-02-2016, 02:56 PM
What are the consequences of the ban as compared to ten thousand deaths per year aka murders caused by drunk drivers?

More people die from "distracted driving" than drunk drivers. Should we ban cellphones, passengers (especially children), radios, and pedestrians or businesses on the side of the road?

Matty
02-02-2016, 03:09 PM
More people die from "distracted driving" than drunk drivers. Should we ban cellphones, passengers (especially children), radios, and pedestrians or businesses on the side of the road?

Don't off the rail. We are talking about mind altering substances.

del
02-02-2016, 03:14 PM
i don't see how anyone can deny that children are mind altering substances.

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:03 PM
Knock yourself out, @donttread (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=922) .

Man, I just woke up and now I have a headache. Why did you have to tell me to knock myself out?

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:04 PM
More people die from "distracted driving" than drunk drivers. Should we ban cellphones, passengers (especially children), radios, and pedestrians or businesses on the side of the road?


Not the "I have a right to drink and drive thing again"

Green Arrow
02-02-2016, 06:07 PM
Not the "I have a right to drink and drive thing again"

Who said that? Point them out.

Green Arrow
02-02-2016, 06:08 PM
Don't off the rail. We are talking about mind altering substances.

No, you're talking about what kills the most people on the road. Distracted driving does. Children, food, drinks, cellphones, radios, even pedestrians and businesses on the side of the road all distract us while we drive.

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:09 PM
Well we legalized alcohol and look at the innocent people who die yearly from drunk drivers. Makes great sense now to add more impaired drivers by legalizing drugs. God help the innocents because sure as fuck no one else will. It's murder.

How is it that with the availability of drugs everywhere people continue to cling to the failed logic that legalization would significantly increase drug use. ?
What it would do is decrease gang violence and produce far fewer OD's .

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:19 PM
Who said that? Point them out.

I rember similar comments in the past, that's all. You seem pretty defensive . Wonder what that means?

donttread
02-02-2016, 06:21 PM
Well we legalized alcohol and look at the innocent people who die yearly from drunk drivers. Makes great sense now to add more impaired drivers by legalizing drugs. God help the innocents because sure as fuck no one else will. It's murder.

How is it that with the availability of drugs everywhere people continue to cling to the failed logic that legalization would significantly increase drug use. ?
What it would do is decrease gang violence and produce far fewer OD's .

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 06:46 PM
To believe that, we must believe that they don't know how addiction works.

Want to discuss specific drugs?
Most of the prescription class of painkillers are opioids, the key ingredient being opium. There is no way to make opium nonaddictive. Opium attaches to endorphin receptors in the brain, spine and digestive system, with the resultant pleasurable and pain relieving effects, because opium mimics the human endorphins that block the neurotransmission of pain. Hence, opioids are addictive. While similar to opioids that bind directly with endorphin (opiate) receptors in the brain, the cannabinoid receptors bind to their specific molecule – anandamide. Anandamide is involved in the regulation of mood, memory, appetite, pain, cognition, and emotions. The active ingredient, THC, seems to stimulate the release of dopamines. This actually mimics the effects of the endocannabinoid system in the brain that produce that "runner's high". The difference between the two? Opioids affect more mechanisms of the body than cannabinoids and generally produce a much greater overall euphoric effect, although far more negative effects on the digestive and respiratory system. In fact, research has found that cannabinoids are useful for treating opioid addiction.

Matty
02-02-2016, 06:52 PM
How is it that with the availability of drugs everywhere people continue to cling to the failed logic that legalization would significantly increase drug use. ?
What it would do is decrease gang violence and produce far fewer OD's .


Why? How? It did not work that way with alcohol.

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 07:13 PM
Maybe they can make something that isn't physically addictive, but mentally? I doubt it.
People get mentally addicted to food as well. They use it to sooth their emotions.

Green Arrow
02-02-2016, 07:15 PM
I rember similar comments in the past, that's all. You seem pretty defensive . Wonder what that means?

I asked a question. That's hardly defensive.

kilgram
02-02-2016, 08:01 PM
Who said that? Point them out.
I remember a president of the Spanish nation, what was his name, yes.. Jose Maria Aznar that he said:

- Nobody has the right to tell him how many cups of wine he drinks during a party.

Almost literal words.

Just I've used your comment to trash that bastard.

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Mister D
02-02-2016, 08:12 PM
I remember a president of the Spanish nation, what was his name, yes.. Jose Maria Aznar that he said:

- Nobody has the right to tell him how many cups of wine he drinks during a party.

Almost literal words.

Just I've used your comment to trash that $#@!.

Enviat des del meu Aquaris E5 usant Tapatalk

Good man. :smiley:

Mister D
02-02-2016, 08:13 PM
Most of the prescription class of painkillers are opioids, the key ingredient being opium. There is no way to make opium nonaddictive. Opium attaches to endorphin receptors in the brain, spine and digestive system, with the resultant pleasurable and pain relieving effects, because opium mimics the human endorphins that block the neurotransmission of pain. Hence, opioids are addictive. While similar to opioids that bind directly with endorphin (opiate) receptors in the brain, the cannabinoid receptors bind to their specific molecule – anandamide. Anandamide is involved in the regulation of mood, memory, appetite, pain, cognition, and emotions. The active ingredient, THC, seems to stimulate the release of dopamines. This actually mimics the effects of the endocannabinoid system in the brain that produce that "runner's high". The difference between the two? Opioids affect more mechanisms of the body than cannabinoids and generally produce a much greater overall euphoric effect, although far more negative effects on the digestive and respiratory system. In fact, research has found that cannabinoids are useful for treating opioid addiction.

I've really taken a liking to kratom.

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 08:42 PM
14026


Many citizens say the same thing about guns and conceal carry.

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 08:44 PM
Maybe they can make something that isn't physically addictive, but mentally? I doubt it.

Drugs affect the brain by blocking neurotransmitters and affecting hormone production. That creates a physical dependency over time for many people.

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 08:45 PM
Most of the prescription class of painkillers are opioids, the key ingredient being opium. There is no way to make opium nonaddictive. Opium attaches to endorphin receptors in the brain, spine and digestive system, with the resultant pleasurable and pain relieving effects, because opium mimics the human endorphins that block the neurotransmission of pain. Hence, opioids are addictive. While similar to opioids that bind directly with endorphin (opiate) receptors in the brain, the cannabinoid receptors bind to their specific molecule – anandamide. Anandamide is involved in the regulation of mood, memory, appetite, pain, cognition, and emotions. The active ingredient, THC, seems to stimulate the release of dopamines. This actually mimics the effects of the endocannabinoid system in the brain that produce that "runner's high". The difference between the two? Opioids affect more mechanisms of the body than cannabinoids and generally produce a much greater overall euphoric effect, although far more negative effects on the digestive and respiratory system. In fact, research has found that cannabinoids are useful for treating opioid addiction.

OK. I don't know marijuana.

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 08:48 PM
I've really taken a liking to kratom.
I've never tried it, but from what I read it sounds interesting.

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 08:51 PM
OK. I don't know marijuana.
Really?

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 08:54 PM
Really?
Not at all.

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 08:57 PM
Not at all.
You have never tried it in your whole life?

Mister D
02-02-2016, 09:01 PM
I've never tried it, but from what I read it sounds interesting.

I like my painkillers and got physically addicted to them several times. It results in a shitty night or two. Kratom has all but eliminated the potential for that to happen in the future. I took what they call yellow vein tonight before I worked out. It's a little more stimulating than the other strains.

Mister D
02-02-2016, 09:02 PM
You have never tried it in your whole life?

I can't stand it. I think enough as it is.

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 09:04 PM
I like my painkillers and got physically addicted to them several times. It results in a shitty night or two. Kratom has all but eliminated the potential for that to happen in the future. I took what they call yellow vein tonight before I worked out. It's a little more stimulating than the other strains.
I read that the effect is very different in small amounts vs larger amounts. Smaller amounts can be a stimulant and larger amounts more of a soporific.

Mister D
02-02-2016, 09:07 PM
I read that the effect is very different in small amounts vs larger amounts. Smaller amounts can be a stimulant and larger amounts more of a soporific.

That's true but the various strains, while similar, provide a significantly different experience even though they all coax you to sleep after a while. Yellow is supposed to be the most energetic and euphoric while red has the best pain killing qualities.

donttread
02-02-2016, 09:08 PM
Why? How? It did not work that way with alcohol.


Sure it did, alcohol flowed pretty freely during prohibition but prohibition helped fund the organize crime of the time, people died from bad booze , etc

Safety
02-02-2016, 09:09 PM
Pot heads.

:grin:

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 09:10 PM
I can't stand it. I think enough as it is.
Meh, I don't mind it in small doses, but too much knocks me out. It does of course, depend on the strain of grass. They have different properties.

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 09:10 PM
You have never tried it in your whole life?

Never.

Safety
02-02-2016, 09:12 PM
Prude.

Mister D
02-02-2016, 09:15 PM
Meh, I don't mind it in small doses, but too much knocks me out. It does of course, depend on the strain of grass. They have different properties.

I do like crashing from pot. That feels nice.

Safety
02-02-2016, 09:16 PM
I do like crashing from pot. That feels nice.

With or without the seatbelt?

donttread
02-02-2016, 09:19 PM
Meh, I don't mind it in small doses, but too much knocks me out. It does of course, depend on the strain of grass. They have different properties.

We rightly focus on the main psychoactive chemicals in the drug, but I believe as do many others , that some drugs such as MJ and coffee probably contain other psychoactive chemicals. Those chemicals might vary more from strain to strain

Mister D
02-02-2016, 09:19 PM
With or without the seatbelt?

Just the warm glow of the History Channel. :smiley:

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 09:21 PM
Never.
:shocked: There are some really nice brownies and cookies out there that just make you mellow, happy and relaxed - not stupid. I never found it was really as disinhibiting as alcohol and there is no such thing as being mean and nasty on pot. Hungry maybe and if you have too many cookies or brownies you could fall asleep. Further on the plus side, they are finding that marijuana seems to have anti-cancer properties.

Safety
02-02-2016, 09:23 PM
Just the warm glow of the History Channel. :smiley:

Can't be beat, love the History Channel. I wonder how watching this guy while high would be like.....

http://media.philly.com/images/ancient-aliens-guy-600.jpg

Something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/Qcw9BYq.jpg

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 09:31 PM
We rightly focus on the main psychoactive chemicals in the drug, but I believe as do many others , that some drugs such as MJ and coffee probably contain other psychoactive chemicals. Those chemicals might vary more from strain to strain
They have been isolating strains of late that have different properties, especially in respect of medical marijuana. It is possible now to get strains that have fewer psychoactive chemical, but more pain repressing chemicals. However the street industry has been developing increasingly powerful psychoactive strains. The hydroponic stuff is far more powerful than the weed back in the day. It doesn't take many tokes to get a real buzz. Hence for me, if I indulge, it is in small doses. Also, my body handles it a bit strangely. Small doses produce a high, too high a dose and I will go comatose for a few minutes and then I think adrenaline kicks in and I am completely sober.

Dr. Who
02-02-2016, 09:32 PM
can't be beat, love the history channel. I wonder how watching this guy while high would be like.....

http://media.philly.com/images/ancient-aliens-guy-600.jpg

something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/qcw9byq.jpg
lol.

Ravens Fan
02-02-2016, 10:17 PM
Never.

Just remember, when you retire, I am only about 30-40 minutes up the road from you. I would take a trip down to visit and share. :grin:

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 10:26 PM
Just remember, when you retire, I am only about 30-40 minutes up the road from you. I would take a trip down to visit and share. :grin:

Military retirement is this summer.

Safety
02-02-2016, 11:13 PM
Military retirement is this summer.

I know you're looking for a contracting gig for after retirement.

Ravens Fan
02-02-2016, 11:15 PM
Military retirement is this summer.

Sweet!

Crepitus
02-03-2016, 12:48 AM
People get mentally addicted to food as well. They use it to sooth their emotions.
Indeed, that is what I was getting at.

Crepitus
02-03-2016, 12:52 AM
Drugs affect the brain by blocking neurotransmitters and affecting hormone production. That creates a physical dependency over time for many people.
Of course. I was referring to the desire to repeat whatever it is that the drug does. As Dr. Who pointed out you can get addicted to something as mundane as food so whether a recreational drug makes changes in your brain or not there is still a possibility of addiction.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 05:47 AM
Sugar addiction (http://plantbaseddietitian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sugar-Addiction.jpg) is a chemical process:

http://plantbaseddietitian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sugar-Addiction.jpg

donttread
02-03-2016, 08:55 AM
They have been isolating strains of late that have different properties, especially in respect of medical marijuana. It is possible now to get strains that have fewer psychoactive chemical, but more pain repressing chemicals. However the street industry has been developing increasingly powerful psychoactive strains. The hydroponic stuff is far more powerful than the weed back in the day. It doesn't take many tokes to get a real buzz. Hence for me, if I indulge, it is in small doses. Also, my body handles it a bit strangely. Small doses produce a high, too high a dose and I will go comatose for a few minutes and then I think adrenaline kicks in and I am completely sober.

And then we add in the users expectations of the experience which can change things as well, especially with pot .

donttread
02-03-2016, 08:57 AM
Sugar addiction (http://plantbaseddietitian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sugar-Addiction.jpg) is a chemical process:

http://plantbaseddietitian.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Sugar-Addiction.jpg

And we are predisposed to sugar addiction because sugar is the one thing humans who are not otherwise hungry will crave

donttread
02-03-2016, 09:00 AM
Of course. I was referring to the desire to repeat whatever it is that the drug does. As Dr. Who pointed out you can get addicted to something as mundane as food so whether a recreational drug makes changes in your brain or not there is still a possibility of addiction.


The brain changes are deeper than than you may think. Tobacco users brains, for example actually increase the number of receptor sites that nicotine attaches to.