PDA

View Full Version : tPF Is Trump a foreign policy realist?



Peter1469
02-02-2016, 09:05 PM
Is Trump a foreign policy realist? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/01/so-when-will-realists-endorse-donald-trump/)

An important question since America has seemed to reject the carelessness of the Neocons and the liberal interventionists.


One big story, however, is that Trump and his advisers think of themselves as stone-cold realists (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-31/the-trump-doctrine-revealed):



Trump’s narrow definition of “national interest” does not include things like democracy promotion, humanitarian intervention, the responsibility to protect people from atrocities or the advocacy of human rights abroad. Trump believes that economic engagement will lead to political opening in the long run. He doesn’t think the U.S. government should spend blood or treasure on trying to change other countries’ systems.

“This is a long game; it’s not a short game,” Clovis said. He faulted neoconservatives who “think you can go out there and in three weeks after Iraq collapses you can create a constitutional democracy over there.”

The Trump campaign thinks of this approach as pragmatic and realistic. Like classical realists, Trump wants to deal with states and governments, not non-state actors or international organizations. That, according to his advisers, is why he sometimes seems to praise strongmen who lead their states as executives with absolute power. Trump sees Putin and other dictators as businessmen doing what any CEO would do, fighting for their organization.
So would, say, respected academic realists such as John Mearsheimer (http://www.amazon.com/Tragedy-Great-Politics-Updated-Edition/dp/0393349276) orStephen Walt (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0184Q3M7O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1) or Barry Posen (http://www.amazon.com/Restraint-Foundation-Strategy-Cornell-Security/dp/1501700723) approve of these sentiments?

texan
02-02-2016, 10:20 PM
Policy and campaign policy is obviously different. See current president.

Peter1469
02-02-2016, 10:24 PM
World leaders are constrained with their actions based on reality. That is an essential ingredient of realist foreign policy. Trying to buck that is hard.

Obama wanted to turn isolationist, but reality refused. Now he tried and moved in that direction. But in many ways he is much more hawkish than Bush the Younger.

Ravens Fan
02-02-2016, 11:40 PM
Is Trump a foreign policy realist? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/01/so-when-will-realists-endorse-donald-trump/)

An important question since America has seemed to reject the carelessness of the Neocons and the liberal interventionists.




Interesting article.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 05:33 AM
Interesting article.

It was. I will have to pay more attention to Trump's foreign policy statements.

Chris
02-03-2016, 10:10 AM
That article certainly describes him as a realist, especially the part about the only actors on the International arena are states, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations).

My impression is he's too reactionary and populist wanting to build walls, reject Muslims, etc.

suds00
02-03-2016, 11:06 AM
if he ever got to the white house there would be no wall and immigrants would come to the u.s..

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 11:07 AM
Is Trump a foreign policy realist? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/01/so-when-will-realists-endorse-donald-trump/)

An important question since America has seemed to reject the carelessness of the Neocons and the liberal interventionists.




Was Obama?? I find questions about experience in ANYTHING as it relates to the Presidency moot after the nation chose the inexperienced putz they elected twice in the previous elections.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 11:11 AM
Foreign policy views that suggest America can retreat behind her borders and leave the world's affairs to the United Nations are dumb and naive.

The last moron elected to this office is still learning that lesson the hard way.

Chris
02-03-2016, 11:15 AM
Foreign policy views that suggest America can retreat behind her borders and leave the world's affairs to the United Nations are dumb and naive.

The last moron elected to this office is still learning that lesson the hard way.

And neocon interventionists are just as unrealistic (in the sense realism is being used in this thread).

The question then becomes where does Trump lie, isolationist or interventionist, for he's certainly no noninterventionist. Given his cries for walls, excluding Muslims, and protectionist economics policies, I'd say he's an isolationist.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 11:19 AM
And neocon interventionists are just as unrealistic (in the sense realism is being used in this thread).

Still got "neocon" on the brain I see.


The question then becomes where does Trump lie, isolationist or interventionist, for he's certainly no noninterventionist. Given his cries for walls, excluding Muslims, and protectionist economics policies, I'd say he's an isolationist.

I agree; which makes him the dumb, naive and inexperienced putz I peg him for and is why he is the Republican incarnation of Obama.

That said; he's still light years better than Shrillary or the Bernmeister.

Chris
02-03-2016, 11:32 AM
Still got "neocon" on the brain I see.



I agree; which makes him the dumb, naive and inexperienced putz I peg him for and is why he is the Republican incarnation of Obama.

That said; he's still light years better than Shrillary or the Bernmeister.

Hillary's a neocon interventionist, not sure Bernie other than he's got his eye on the Nordic nations.

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 11:40 AM
Is Trump a foreign policy realist? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/01/so-when-will-realists-endorse-donald-trump/)

An important question since America has seemed to reject the carelessness of the Neocons and the liberal interventionists.




Well: Trump’s narrow definition of “national interest” does not include things like democracy promotion (Nation Building and Invasion), humanitarian intervention (Putting foreigners before citizens), the responsibility to protect people from atrocities or the advocacy of human rights abroad (more nation building and policing). Trump believes that economic engagement will lead to political opening in the long run. He doesn’t think the U.S. government should spend blood or treasure on trying to change other countries’ systems.

I agree with him, do not like the SOB but I agree.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 11:55 AM
Well: Trump’s narrow definition of “national interest” does not include things like democracy promotion (Nation Building and Invasion), humanitarian intervention (Putting foreigners before citizens), the responsibility to protect people from atrocities or the advocacy of human rights abroad (more nation building and policing). Trump believes that economic engagement will lead to political opening in the long run. He doesn’t think the U.S. government should spend blood or treasure on trying to change other countries’ systems.

I agree with him, do not like the SOB but I agree.

Of course you agree with dumb failed foreign policy arguments. :biglaugh:

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 11:58 AM
Of course you agree with dumb failed foreign policy arguments. :biglaugh:

Yeah look how much good it has done us?

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 12:29 PM
Yeah look how much good it has done us?

Over the last seven years with the current idiot; not a lot eh? :laugh:

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 12:40 PM
Over the last seven years with the current idiot; not a lot eh? :laugh:

In the end our recent presidents has been dead wrong on many things. Bush one had the right idea, do the war and leave. Bush lite and Obozo screwed us into this mess.

Reagan was correct is sending support and taking out targets and getting our people out of places but recently, nothing but fail. Clinton was not good one way or the other. He had no real crises except the european issues and those may have led to some of the current issues.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 01:00 PM
Clinton was not good one way or the other. He had no real crises except the european issues and those may have led to some of the current issues.

Two things; OUR Presidents are NOT the problem. Why leftists cannot comprehend the TRUTH in this is mind numbing.

Secondly, Clinton had PLENTY of crisis and failures. Most just don't like to remember what a failure he was. Somalia, Lybia....etc etc. Not to mention his loss to Republicans of the Congress after three decades of dominance by Democrats and his philandering ways in the White House and prolific lying.

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 01:03 PM
Two things; OUR Presidents are NOT the problem. Why leftists cannot comprehend the TRUTH in this is mind numbing.

Secondly, Clinton had PLENTY of crisis and failures. Most just don't like to remember what a failure he was. Somalia, Lybia....etc etc. Not to mention his loss to Republicans of the Congress after three decades of dominance by Democrats and his philandering ways in the White House and prolific lying.

Who the fuck you calling a damn leftist? I know damn good and well the presidents push this bullshit for their masters.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 01:16 PM
Who the $#@! you calling a damn leftist? I know damn good and well the presidents push this bull$#@! for their masters.

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t542/apple-sauce38/Positive%20Reactions/laughing/biglaugh7_zpsd701e485.gif

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 01:32 PM
http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t542/apple-sauce38/Positive Reactions/laughing/biglaugh7_zpsd701e485.gif


PROVE me wrong! https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/lobby.php

So they are owned tools, it is provable!

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 01:35 PM
PROVE me wrong! https://www.opensecrets.org/pres16/lobby.php

So they are owned tools, it is provable!

...and yet, the Republican candidate with the most money and lobbyists and support from the party loyal is doing the worst and the moneyed lobbied Democrat candidate struggles to beat an avowed geriatric Socialist.

Dorothy; there is no man behind the curtain.

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 01:40 PM
...and yet, the Republican candidate with the most money and lobbyists and support from the party loyal is doing the worst and the moneyed lobbied Democrat candidate struggles to beat an avowed geriatric Socialist.

Dorothy; there is no man behind the curtain.

We are looking at a change. I pray that one of these people running on the republican side win. Bush was owned! Obozoz was owned from day one. Big insurance and really BIG pharma have made a killing off of this tool. he is there bitch and if he goes on to the UN he will make them more money! Paid for by the tax payers of the US.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 01:47 PM
We are looking at a change. I pray that one of these people running on the republican side win. Bush was owned! Obozoz was owned from day one. Big insurance and really BIG pharma have made a killing off of this tool. he is there $#@! and if he goes on to the UN he will make them more money! Paid for by the tax payers of the US.

There won't be any change as long as the American sheeple place their faith in men/women and don't realize that change cannot occur until we abolish the current tax code supplanting it with a Fair consumption Tax and demand term limits on Congress.

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 01:51 PM
There won't be any change as long as the American sheeple place their faith in men/women and don't realize that change cannot occur until we abolish the current tax code supplanting it with a Fair consumption Tax and demand term limits on Congress.

I will add to that and say when the American people demand that we bring jobs home, no matter the cost, and demand that leeches have time limits we can see some change as well.

Truth Detector
02-03-2016, 01:55 PM
I will add to that and say when the American people demand that we bring jobs home, no matter the cost, and demand that leeches have time limits we can see some change as well.

You don't bring jobs home engaging in "protectionist" policies either. The jobs left because UNIONS priced themselves out of the market.

Look at any industry that was once dominated by strong unions; garment industry, steel industry, automobile industry....etc etc etc.

The problem isn't in the free market; but rather, a corrupt professional political class who knows that appealing to low information voter by promising them stuff is how they can get elected.

Archer0915
02-03-2016, 01:59 PM
You don't bring jobs home engaging in "protectionist" policies either. The jobs left because UNIONS priced themselves out of the market.

Look at any industry that was once dominated by strong unions; garment industry, steel industry, automobile industry....etc etc etc.

The problem isn't in the free market; but rather, a corrupt professional political class who knows that appealing to low information voter by promising them stuff is how they can get elected.

Unions are only part of it. American consumers are a huge problem. They are cheap and unwilling to pay. Unless you are willing to pay to support the business that employs your neighbor,.. unless people stop demanding high returns by proxy on their investments, sending their own damn jobs offshore...

PolWatch
02-03-2016, 02:55 PM
That article certainly describes him as a realist, especially the part about the only actors on the International arena are states, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(international_relations).

My impression is he's too reactionary and populist wanting to build walls, reject Muslims, etc.

Trump is an electionist.....he says anything to get elected. I suspect he has no strong feelings in one direction.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 04:15 PM
Foreign policy views that suggest America can retreat behind her borders and leave the world's affairs to the United Nations are dumb and naive.

The last moron elected to this office is still learning that lesson the hard way.

That wouldn't describe a foreign policy realist.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 04:18 PM
‘Trump Wars, Episode II: The Realists Strike Back’ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/03/trump-wars-episode-ii-the-realists-strike-back/)


Part of of the article in the OP. It is in response to reactions that he got.


If realists truly want to make a difference in American foreign policy, however, these objections are small beer (http://www.salon.com/2015/09/08/donald_trump_realist_hes_talking_more_sense_than_t he_gops_foreign_policy_extremists/). A realist would not necessarily care about the Middle East all that much. There are no great powers in the region, after all. From a realpolitik perspective, the United States should be happy if Russia expends blood and treasure to support proxies and preserve stability there. Which, by the way, is the position of one Donald J. Trump (http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/256018-trump-russian-airstrikes-in-syria-a-positive-thing).


As for Trump’s less-than-pure-realist advisers, c’mon, all presidential candidates talk to different people. Rand Paul even talked to Bill Kristol and Dan Senor (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/2010/09/30/rands-secret-rendezvous/) at one point — does that mean Paul (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/02/03/rand-paul-suspends-presidential-campaign/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_paul-915am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory)now has neocon cooties or something? If realists want to make a difference in the presidential campaign, it seems to me they should fight for their worldview and talk more with the candidates who display some sympathy with realpolitik principles. And that would be Trump.

Polecat
02-03-2016, 04:19 PM
When it comes to foreign policy there is no one size fits all algorithm to mark a written policy up and slap it on a global situation. We have plenty of examples of what fails miserably and where. We can learn from that. Trump has managerial skills that could optimize this process. Recruit people with inside knowledge of particular situations and exploit their abilities to cobble together a precision plan for a given situation. We can't expect sanctions to work everywhere or every time. Half hearted military action is a proven disaster too. If we are going to go the military route then it needs to be an overwhelming effort with no pussy ROI getting our people needlessly slaughtered to spare civilians. That is absurd.

MisterVeritis
02-03-2016, 04:23 PM
There won't be any change as long as the American sheeple place their faith in men/women and don't realize that change cannot occur until we abolish the current tax code supplanting it with a Fair consumption Tax and demand term limits on Congress.
Changes like those will require a Constitutional Article V convention of states to propose amendments.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 05:17 PM
When it comes to foreign policy there is no one size fits all algorithm to mark a written policy up and slap it on a global situation. We have plenty of examples of what fails miserably and where. We can learn from that. Trump has managerial skills that could optimize this process. Recruit people with inside knowledge of particular situations and exploit their abilities to cobble together a precision plan for a given situation. We can't expect sanctions to work everywhere or every time. Half hearted military action is a proven disaster too. If we are going to go the military route then it needs to be an overwhelming effort with no pussy ROI getting our people needlessly slaughtered to spare civilians. That is absurd.


There are various schools of thought in how to analyze the international arena and how to react to it. Realism is but one of them.

Tahuyaman
02-03-2016, 09:18 PM
Is Trump a foreign policy realist? (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/02/01/so-when-will-realists-endorse-donald-trump/)

An important question since America has seemed to reject the carelessness of the Neocons and the liberal interventionists.




I'm not sure when Trump has ever provided specifics on his foreign policy ideas. Has he?

Dr. Who
02-03-2016, 09:39 PM
...and yet, the Republican candidate with the most money and lobbyists and support from the party loyal is doing the worst and the moneyed lobbied Democrat candidate struggles to beat an avowed geriatric Socialist.

Dorothy; there is no man behind the curtain.
No single man. There are just corporate interests behind that curtain. Corporate interests and especially globalist interests are not equal to the interests of average citizens. They work in the interests of the preferred shareholders who are anything but average citizens. They are the people squirreling most of their money away in offshore accounts where it does not circulate in the marketplace, or create jobs or industry.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 09:40 PM
I'm not sure when Trump has ever provided specifics on his foreign policy ideas. Has he?

I imagine that he has at times. I don't follow everything that he says. The articles mention a few of his public statements.

Tahuyaman
02-03-2016, 09:42 PM
I haven't heard him give specifics on anything. "I'll be great", "I'll be the best", is not being very specific.

Peter1469
02-03-2016, 10:01 PM
I haven't heard him give specifics on anything. "I'll be great", "I'll be the best", is not being very specific.

That is what the MSM covers.

MisterVeritis
02-03-2016, 11:27 PM
I haven't heard him give specifics on anything. "I'll be great", "I'll be the best", is not being very specific.
Of course it helps if you want to hear specifics. You do not.

It is okay. I hope he doesn't screw things up. But one can never know in advance.

Tahuyaman
02-03-2016, 11:32 PM
Of course it helps if you want to hear specifics. You do not.

It is okay. I hope he doesn't screw things up. But one can never know in advance.

Unlike some, I do like to hear specifics on where a candidate for president stands on the issues, especially foreign policy issues.

MisterVeritis
02-03-2016, 11:35 PM
Unlike some, I do like to hear specifics on where a candidate for president stands on the issues, especially foreign policy issues.
Sure you do.
1) Build a good wall.
2) Deport the illegal aliens.
3) Deport the Syrian "refuges".
4) seek a simplified tax code.

Everything else is gravy.