Hillary supporters: What is so radical about Bernie?

[Green Arrow]

Hillary supporters like JDubya, Mark III, and TrueBlue have expressed fear over the possibility of Bernie Sanders becoming the Democratic nominee because he is such a radical socialist.

My question is...how is he so radical, exactly? Let's look passed the evil "s" word and specifically look at his policies and how his positions on the issues stand with mainstream thought.

Healthcare - Virtually every developed nation on the planet has some form of nationalized healthcare. There are 32 nations that meet the "developed" criteria and all of them have nationalized healthcare, including the U.S. Of those 32 nations, exactly half of them, 16, have a single-payer system. Those nations are Norway, Japan, the United Kingdom, Kuwait, Sweden, Bahrain, Brunei, Canada, United Arab Emirates, Finland, Slovenia, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Spain, and Iceland. Another nine countries (Israel, Singapore, Hong Kong, Ireland, Australia, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, and New Zealand) have a two-tier system that is basically part single-payer, part insurance mandate. Additionally, as of January of last year, just over half of all Americans (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/229959-majority-still-support-single-payer-option-poll-finds) support a single-payer system.

I mean, really, this article from Mother Jones pretty well addresses my point: America's Views Align Surprisingly Well With Those of "Socialist" Bernie Sanders (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/senator-bernie-sanders-policy-platform-presidential-campaign)

[JDubya]

I don't care about his socialist views. I'm all for a balanced mixture of socialism and capitalism.

I like the guy actually.

I just don't think he can win a national election for President.

I just think voting for him is irresponsible because it would likely result in a Republican President.

[Green Arrow]

I just don't think he can win a national election for President.

Okay, that's fair. What do you base that on? It certainly can't be polls, because he actually polls better against any of the prospective GOP challengers than Hillary does. On the issues? He aligns pretty closely with most of the world and with most Americans on the issues.

What is it?


I just think voting for him is irresponsible because it would likely result in a Republican President.

I respect your opinion but I disagree. And I also don't care. Hillary's record shows she won't be any better than [Generic Republican]. Hell, on foreign policy especially there is literally zero difference.

[JDubya]

Okay, that's fair. What do you base that on? It certainly can't be polls, because he actually polls better against any of the prospective GOP challengers than Hillary does. On the issues? He aligns pretty closely with most of the world and with most Americans on the issues.

What is it?

I respect your opinion but I disagree. And I also don't care. Hillary's record shows she won't be any better than [Generic Republican]. Hell, on foreign policy especially there is literally zero difference.

I don't put a lot of stock in polls 9 months out from an election. As has been stated here by Mark III, once Bernie was the nominee and the Republicans started running the attack ads with pictures like this....

http://www.trevorloudon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/648px-David_green_bernie_sanders_dsa.jpg

You will see the Independent swing voters begin to move away from him.

As for Hillary's record, I want someone like her with a set of brass balls in the WH, not some old 60's peacenik who would get no respect from third world despots and terrorist regimes.

I doubt there is anyone out there including Putin who wouldn't take her seriously.

Plus, she'll have Bill right there at her right hand. Helluva asset.

And domestically, the far left's agenda is just unrealistic. We cannot afford all the stuff they want.

There will never be free college tuition and free universal health care in this country in our lifetimes.

Just will not happen.

[Mark III]

Green Arrow, why do you keep pointing to polls that are virtually meaningless ?

The Republicans have held their fire on Sanders, there is absolutely no question about this.

Let him get nominated, and you will see vicious attacks on him and his socialism (they will call it communism) all day every day. This is not going to be a pretty sight. We know the right has no scruples about lying about people, look at birtherism and the Obama is a muslim themes. They will dig up communist memberships for Sanders that we cannot even imagine right now. And it will have an effect on the election. Some people will buy it.

[Mark III]

There is another thing, and people better take this seriously.

If Sanders gets the nomination, and Trump or Cruz get the nomination, Bloomberg is coming in. It is a sure thing. If Bloomberg comes in, it will then be highly possible that the election will go to the House of Representatives because no one will have 270 electoral votes. If that happens Trump or Cruz is the next president.

[Mark III]

I don't put a lot of stock in polls 9 months out from an election. As has been stated here by Mark III, once Bernie was the nominee and the Republicans started running the attack ads with pictures like this....

http://www.trevorloudon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/648px-David_green_bernie_sanders_dsa.jpg

You will see the Independent swing voters begin to move away from him.

As for Hillary's record, I want someone like her with a set of brass balls in the WH, not some old 60's peacenik who would get no respect from third world despots and terrorist regimes.

I doubt there is anyone out there including Putin who wouldn't take her seriously.

Plus, she'll have Bill right there at her right hand. Helluva asset.

And domestically, the far left's agenda is just unrealistic. We cannot afford all the stuff they want.

There will never be free college tuition and free universal health care in this country in our lifetimes.

Just will not happen.


I am honestly at a loss for why so many Sanders supporters seem to think this will be a walk in the park. Clinton has barely gone after him because she wants the left with her if she wins. The Republicans havent gone after him because they want him to win. He has had it very easy so far. I think that fact has deluded some of his followers.

[Green Arrow]

I don't put a lot of stock in polls 9 months out from an election. As has been stated here by Mark III, once Bernie was the nominee and the Republicans started running the attack ads with pictures like this....

http://www.trevorloudon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/648px-David_green_bernie_sanders_dsa.jpg

You will see the Independent swing voters begin to move away from him.

As for Hillary's record, I want someone like her with a set of brass balls in the WH, not some old 60's peacenik who would get no respect from third world despots and terrorist regimes.

I doubt there is anyone out there including Putin who wouldn't take her seriously.

Plus, she'll have Bill right there at her right hand. Helluva asset.

And domestically, the far left's agenda is just unrealistic. We cannot afford all the stuff they want.

There will never be free college tuition and free universal health care in this country in our lifetimes.

Just will not happen.

Why not? We're already half way there here in Tennessee - two years free community college and trade school.

[Boris The Animal]

Every time Democrats have run a far Left whackjob like Sanders, Mondull, and Dukakis, they lost miserably.

Thread banned at the request of the thread owner.

[Green Arrow]

Green Arrow, why do you keep pointing to polls that are virtually meaningless ?

All polls are meaningless until they agree with you. We all do it.

Me, I see polls as a valuable tool. They do a pretty good job at gauging the feelings of people going into this stuff. They aren't perfect, but nothing is.


The Republicans have held their fire on Sanders, there is absolutely no question about this.

They've never held their fire on Sanders, I've heard virtually all of the candidates criticize him strongly and plenty of talk from Republicans on how he's an evil commie socialist. They aren't hitting him as hard as they are hitting Hillary, but arguing they've held their fire is just naive.


Let him get nominated, and you will see vicious attacks on him and his socialism (they will call it communism) all day every day. This is not going to be a pretty sight. We know the right has no scruples about lying about people, look at birtherism and the Obama is a muslim themes. They will dig up communist memberships for Sanders that we cannot even imagine right now. And it will have an effect on the election. Some people will buy it.

As I said before...you can fear the right-wing smear machine all you want. I don't and I will fight their lies at every opportunity. More than half of all Americans support Bernie's policies, so they can go eat a bag of dicks.

Now, back to the point of the OP, if you don't mind.

[Green Arrow]

There is another thing, and people better take this seriously.

If Sanders gets the nomination, and Trump or Cruz get the nomination, Bloomberg is coming in. It is a sure thing. If Bloomberg comes in, it will then be highly possible that the election will go to the House of Representatives because no one will have 270 electoral votes. If that happens Trump or Cruz is the next president.

And if Hillary wins, she loses the left and can't win anyway.

I'll take my chances with the candidate I want.

[Boris The Animal]

All polls are meaningless until they agree with you. We all do it.

Me, I see polls as a valuable tool. They do a pretty good job at gauging the feelings of people going into this stuff. They aren't perfect, but nothing is.



They've never held their fire on Sanders, I've heard virtually all of the candidates criticize him strongly and plenty of talk from Republicans on how he's an evil commie socialist. They aren't hitting him as hard as they are hitting Hillary, but arguing they've held their fire is just naive.



As I said before...you can fear the right-wing smear machine all you want. I don't and I will fight their lies at every opportunity. More than half of all Americans support Bernie's policies, so they can go eat a bag of dicks.

Now, back to the point of the OP, if you don't mind.So lemme ask, Why do you favor growing government far more than the US Constitution proscribes. Nowhere does it say the Federal Government is to provide cradle to grave socialism.

[TrueBlue]

Since you have mentioned me I want for you to know that my problem is not so much with Bernie's radical promises to give everything to everyone which even Republicans have to agree may not be a bad thing except that it will naturally cost a lot of money and he HAS PROMISED to raise taxes considerably in order to cover it.

“We will raise taxes, yes we will,” -- Senator Bernie Sanders, Presidential Candidate

Now, some people bring up the weak argument that at least Bernie is being upfront and honest about raising taxes compared to Hillary. But if you stop to think that is indeed frivolous thinking by those who are grossly misinformed about how politics actually work. If that is all they can think about saying in defense of Sanders then they may well get what they deserve -- a Republican president to really CUT SERVICES; Change and Radically REDUCE Social Security to make it HARDER on recipients; Change Medicare to the detriment of recipients; Do away with Medicaid and Food Stamps for those having a rough time in America and trying to get some food to the table for their family while they look for work; They will Demolish All of the Good Progress Made By Democrats; They will stand in the way of the much needed raises for all American workers; They will do away with the Education Department so crucial to children; They will stand in the way of Equal Pay for Women; They will try to reverse LGBT rights; They will indeed do so many other destructive things that it is quite unbearable to even think about. Yet that is exactly what the voting American people NEED TO THINK ABOUT!

And as much as Republicans just love new taxes (hrump!) Sanders would have a very tough time passing any of what he has promised with a Republican Congress. At least Hillary Clinton stands a much better chance given her track record of working with Republicans where some compromise could certainly be met.

But the crux of my not being for Bernie stems from the fact that he is not a true Democrat. He is an INDEPENDENT who, in order to get on the Democratic ticket, had to conveniently switch political parties thus, becoming a turn-coat. And that, imho, does not make him a true Democrat. I have a gut feeling that with him ascending, and without Hillary Clinton, the Democrats will only lose the election in November and that would be tragic.

Also, Sanders is being used by right-wingers who want for him to win the Democratic nomination knowing full well that he can be easily defeated by the GOP. That is my main concern, GA, if you really want to know. Here is the story:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/anti-sanders-attack-ad-isnt-quite-what-it-seems-be

We simply cannot afford that to happen as it would be a tragic move for people to continue supporting Bernie Sanders only for him to be trounced in the general election by the GOP. We have Supreme Court seats that may well need to be filled by the next president and that need to be protected and with Bernie out of the picture we can only expect for a Republican to fill those seats so that the leaning of the court can go even farther to the right. And that is wrong for America! That Is Why Hillary Clinton Is Our BEST Choice! She will protect those seats with the best Justices available to fill them.

People may not totally like Hillary and many indeed criticize her. But what they need to be looking at right now is her experience, savvy and electability which is so important for a president to have and where she really excels compared to Sanders. That is why Republicans are so afraid of her and want to bring her down by hook or by crook with their on-going E-mail stories about her that cannot withstand scrutiny. They much prefer Bernie Sanders to contend with in the general election. But Given the Chance, Watch Out! No Doubt He'd Be Soundly Defeated.

As for the healthcare issue that you have brought up, please look at the following for a greater perspective. This report is well worth reading all the way through as it has been presented quite thoroughly with excellent points for Americans to consider and is replete with great information that we should all know about before considering only Bernie's plan. This is a recent report.

Americans don't need single payer healthcare to get universal coverage
By Scott Lemieux

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/05/bernie-sanders-single-payer-universal-coverage

"The problem with Sanders’s single-payer proposal isn’t that it is too vague to allow voters to assess its feasibility and its flaws. The problem with his plan is that it reinforces the idea that European-style universal healthcare is synonymous with “single payer”; that is simply untrue. There are models that deliver similar or better results than single-payer systems, and they are more politically viable within the American system."

"To implement a single-payer healthcare system from scratch in 2017 would mean not only nationalizing the insurance industry, but severely cutting payments to doctors, hospitals and other areas of the healthcare industry if it were to bring any cost savings. A lot of people working for politically powerful lobbies would be thrown out of work or bankrupted, and many others would be looking at whopping pay cuts; that would never be politically viable even if it was desirable as policy."


"But when thinking about Sanders’ as-yet vague healthcare reform proposal, progressives who want reform – and maybe even Sanders himself – need to be committed to its goal of universal coverage rather than being strictly committed to any particular path like “single payer”."

[Green Arrow]

Since you have mentioned me I want for you to know that my problem is not so much with Bernie's radical promises to give everything to everyone which even Republicans have to agree may not be a bad thing except that it will naturally cost a lot of money and he HAS PROMISED to raise taxes considerably in order to cover it.

“We will raise taxes, yes we will,” -- Senator Bernie Sanders, Presidential Candidate

First of all, all the presidential candidates, Hillary included, will raise taxes. Second, the healthcare plan would ultimately save people money rather than costing more money. Third, it's only an increase for those at the top, those at the bottom won't get the tax increase.

Now, some people bring up the weak argument that at least Bernie is being upfront and honest about raising taxes compared to Hillary. But if you stop to think that is indeed frivolous thinking by those who are grossly misinformed about how politics actually work. If that is all they can think about saying in defense of Sanders then they may well get what they deserve -- a Republican president to really CUT SERVICES; Change and Radically REDUCE Social Security to make it HARDER on recipients; Change Medicare to the detriment of recipients; Do away with Medicaid and Food Stamps for those having a rough time in America and trying to get some food to the table for their family while they look for work; They will Demolish All of the Good Progress Made By Democrats; They will stand in the way of the much needed raises for all American workers; They will do away with the Education Department so crucial to children; They will stand in the way of Equal Pay for Women; They will try to reverse LGBT rights; They will indeed do so many other destructive things that it is quite unbearable to even think about. Yet that is exactly what the voting American people NEED TO THINK ABOUT!

You've said that Hillary will get more things done than Sanders by compromising with Republicans. If that is what Republicans want, why the hell should we even WANT to compromise with them?

[Matty]

Roflmsao

Banned from thread by OP

[JDubya]

And if Hillary wins, she loses the left and can't win anyway.

I'll take my chances with the candidate I want.

I think there is a higher chance that the left will come out in force for Hillary than the chance that the undecided and Independent swing voters will vote for Bernie after the Republicans get through with him.

[TrueBlue]

First of all, all the presidential candidates, Hillary included, will raise taxes. Second, the healthcare plan would ultimately save people money rather than costing more money. Third, it's only an increase for those at the top, those at the bottom won't get the tax increase.


You've said that Hillary will get more things done than Sanders by compromising with Republicans. If that is what Republicans want, why the hell should we even WANT to compromise with them?


Well GA, don't you realize that with a Republican House and a Republican Senate we would have to compromise if anything was to be done for the American people and that is where Hillary would come in with her record of working well with Republicans. If Bernie was to get the chance he would always come out being embarrassed as he would receive not one iota of support from Republicans thus, would not be able to pass anything from the promises he has made. Of course, he would not even be in the position of being in the White House, in the first place, as again, he would be soundly defeated in the general election by the GOP. Therein lies the problem. Our only hope, on the *True Democratic side, is Hillary Clinton! We can assure a victory with her running against a Republican.

*Sanders is a confirmed Independent who only changed political parties in order to be able to run with a Major Political Party, the Democratic Party, thus, he is not a true Democrat.

[Green Arrow]

Well GA, don't you realize that with a Republican House and a Republican Senate we would have to compromise if anything was to be done for the American people and that is where Hillary would come in with her record of working well with Republicans.
The only way Hillary can compromise with Republicans is to give them virtually everything they want, which you've already said would be a terrible catastrophe for Americans.

So either she compromises with Republicans and makes life harder for millions of hard-working Americans, or she doesn't compromise with Republicans and we have the status quo.


If Bernie was to get the chance he would always come out being embarrassed as he would receive not one iota of support from Republicans thus, would not be able to pass anything from the promises he has made. Of course, he would not even be in the position of being in the White House, in the first place, as again, he would be soundly defeated in the general election by the GOP. Therein lies the problem. Our only hope, on the *True Democratic side, is Hillary Clinton! We can assure a victory with her running against a Republican.

Alright, why? So far none of the three of you have actually provided a reason why that blowout would happen. It certainly can't be because of the issues, because the majority of Americans agree with Bernie's ideas. It can't be the dreaded "socialist" label because, again, they used the same crap on Obama and it got them nowhere.


What logical reason do the three of you have to suggest that Bernie would lose and lose big in the general?



*Sanders is a confirmed Independent who only changed political parties in order to be able to run with a Major Political Party, the Democratic Party, thus, he is not a true Democrat.


I give exactly zero shits how much of a true Democrat he is or is not. Parties are meaningless to me. I vote on principle regardless of which team colors the candidate wears. So you might as well not even waste your breath on that tired old line.

[zelmo1234]

todays speech by Sanders was dipping into communism.

many of the things that he is talking about would nearly bankrupt the country. For example taxing the hell out of Wall Street?

I have no need to use US companies to invest, there is NO reason that a large investor would subject themselves to his level of taxation.

Free College? Why? everyone does not deserve a free ride, you pay for your education and they reap the rewards. we have grants to level the playing field.

His policy of raising the minimum wage would cost at least a half a million jobs and as companies moved manufacturing over seas millions more.

And Universal Healthcare is bankrupting those countries and thus rationing of care and services is happening.

Socialism is great if you have enough of other peoples money. but in todays world I am not obligated to subject myself to this folly. And that is already happening in the USA.

[Green Arrow]

todays speech by Sanders was dipping into communism.

No, it didn't.


Free College? Why? everyone does not deserve a free ride, you pay for your education and they reap the rewards. we have grants to level the playing field.

Why? Because a more educated workforce leads to a more prosperous America. We had great education statistics in the 1950s and our economy was booming.


His policy of raising the minimum wage would cost at least a half a million jobs and as companies moved manufacturing over seas millions more.

I don't buy that for one second.


And Universal Healthcare is bankrupting those countries and thus rationing of care and services is happening.

Another fiction. Plenty of factors are "bankrupting" countries with universal healthcare, you can't blame it all on UHC.

[zelmo1234]

No, it didn't.

Why? Because a more educated workforce leads to a more prosperous America. We had great education statistics in the 1950s and our economy was booming.
I don't buy that for one second.

Another fiction. Plenty of factors are "bankrupting" countries with universal healthcare, you can't blame it all on UHC.

sure he did, He called for the confiscation of wealth through punishing taxation, then in order to offer free education and control pricing like he said it would require government confiscation of private entities.

In the 1950's we held students accountable and if they could not do the work they failed and were held back to repeat that grade. Today everyone gets a trophy, that is the difference. Start holding kids responsible and making teachers accountable for teaching instead of indoctrination and our educations system would come pack

Yes 15 dollars and hour would cause massive automation and in order to compete in a world economy nearly all manufacturing, including the Auto industry, whose Union Contracts are tied to the minimum wage, so they would be making nearly 30 dollars an hour, would need to move off shore to remain competitive. Inflation would take care of any increased buying power. It is feel good legislation, much like the programs designed to help poor people.

You are correct, Universal Healthcare, High forced wages, limited personal responsibility, and a bunch of free stuff have many of those nations on the verge of bankruptcy? Do those policies should like any speeches that you have heard lately?

[Green Arrow]

sure he did, He called for the confiscation of wealth through punishing taxation, then in order to offer free education and control pricing like he said it would require government confiscation of private entities.

1) Taxes are not "confiscation of wealth," everybody pays taxes. Always have, always will. Taxes are a necessary evil.

2) Sanders has never proposed government confiscation of private entities. That is a fiction.


In the 1950's we held students accountable and if they could not do the work they failed and were held back to repeat that grade. Today everyone gets a trophy, that is the difference. Start holding kids responsible and making teachers accountable for teaching instead of indoctrination and our educations system would come pack

Sanders isn't opposed to that.


Yes 15 dollars and hour would cause massive automation and in order to compete in a world economy nearly all manufacturing, including the Auto industry, whose Union Contracts are tied to the minimum wage, so they would be making nearly 30 dollars an hour, would need to move off shore to remain competitive. Inflation would take care of any increased buying power. It is feel good legislation, much like the programs designed to help poor people.

There is zero evidence to support the assertion that minimum wage increases hurt the economy, outside of conjecture based in correlation = causation. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that minimum wage increases are a good thing.

Automation is coming even if we do away with the minimum wage completely and mandate that businesses pay no more than $.50 an hour and work their employees over one hundred hours per week. Minimum wage isn't causing automation, technological advances are.


You are correct, Universal Healthcare, High forced wages, limited personal responsibility, and a bunch of free stuff have many of those nations on the verge of bankruptcy? Do those policies should like any speeches that you have heard lately?

Again...plenty of factors are causing countries around the world to go bankrupt. You are selectively choosing the things you don't like and blaming them as the sole factors when there is zero evidence to support that assertion.

[zelmo1234]

So tell me how do you get a college to accept what you will be able to pay for a student to attend there for free? Do you think that the good professors will stay, ore will they likely move to a private university where they can still make good money?

What you will have is 4 more years of high school and those degree's will not be worth the paper they are written on.

The taxations rates that he is talking about would need to be over 75% Nobody is going to put up with that, they are going to take the money off shore, and that would require confiscation or the country would go bankrupt.

What he is talking about sounds great until reality sets in, I think that they figured out what it would cost and it is something astronomical like 19 trillion a year if I remember right?

[TrueBlue]

The only way Hillary can compromise with Republicans is to give them virtually everything they want, which you've already said would be a terrible catastrophe for Americans.
No, actually compromise goes both ways and it means "whenever possible." But there would certainly be some compromise because stop to think. Republicans would want some of their own legislation passed and with Hillary holding the VETO stamp firmly in hand they would have to compromise with her as well if they expected to get their own stuff passed.


So either she compromises with Republicans and makes life harder for millions of hard-working Americans, or she doesn't compromise with Republicans and we have the status quo.
She is still a Democrat, first and foremost, and would not ever sacrifice those principles she holds so dear and near from her political party. Like I said, she would compromise whenever possible but would hold strongly to her beliefs at other times. But compared to Sanders, she could accomplish a hell of a lot more for the American people than Sanders' empty promises ever could.


Alright, why? So far none of the three of you have actually provided a reason why that blowout would happen. It certainly can't be because of the issues, because the majority of Americans agree with Bernie's ideas. It can't be the dreaded "socialist" label because, again, they used the same crap on Obama and it got them nowhere.
No doubt many on the Democratic side may agree with Bernie's ideas but not all of them by any means or they would not still be so strongly favoring Hillary Clinton. And certainly Republicans don't agree with him on anything but at the present time are only playing as if they do in order to situate him to win the nomination so that they can pounce on him heavily in the general election and take him out. The problem lies in the fact that his ideas are unworkable with a Republican House and Senate. That's just the way it is. He is so much of a socialist that Republicans would not extend one finger to help him get any of his agenda passed. And that's the main crux of the "blowout."


What logical reason do the
three of you have to suggest that Bernie would lose and lose big in the general?
It is a foregone conclusion that he would be very vulnerable, given the chance, simply due to his extreme socialist agenda that Republicans do not agree with and they would immediately pounce upon it and beat it to the ground with great confidence and glee during the general election. They could bring many other undecideds to their side that way thus, easily defeat Sanders. That, among other things such as capitalizing on the fact about his advanced age, his inexperience with foreign matters and his being a turn-coat for his own selfish purposes. That would effectively convince many that he is certainly not the man for the job in Washington.



I give exactly zero shits how much of a true Democrat he is or is not. Parties are meaningless to me. I vote on principle regardless of which team colors the candidate wears. So you might as well not even waste your breath on that tired old line.
I know you don't care about Sanders because you are not a Democrat. I'm not sure as to your true political leanings but it could be Libertarian or along those lines if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, you may not place much importance on political parties but that is what Americans place great importance in, otherwise, there would not be the two major political parties, Republican and Democrat. And contrary to any other belief, when they go to vote they will be looking at which political party they are most aligned with in order to support. And sure issues matter. They matter a lot. But at the end of the day it all comes down to which party they want to win the White House, Republican or Democrat.

BTW, I'm glad we are having a civil discussion on this matter with some decorum.

[zelmo1234]

No, actually compromise goes both ways and it means "whenever possible." But there would certainly be some compromise because stop to think. Republicans would want some of their own legislation passed and with Hillary holding the VETO stamp firmly in hand they would have to compromise with her as well if they expected to get their own stuff passed.


She is still a Democrat, first and foremost, and would not ever sacrifice those principles she holds so dear and near from her political party. Like I said, she would compromise whenever possible but would hold strongly to her beliefs at other times. But compared to Sanders, she could accomplish a hell of a lot more for the American people than Sanders' empty promises ever could.


No doubt many on the Democratic side may agree with Bernie's ideas but not all of them by any means or they would not still be so strongly favoring Hillary Clinton. And certainly Republicans don't agree with him on anything but at the present time are only playing as if they do in order to situate him to win the nomination so that they can pounce on him heavily in the general election and take him out. The problem lies in the fact that his ideas are unworkable with a Republican House and Senate. That's just the way it is. He is so much of a socialist that Republicans would not extend one finger to help him get any of his agenda passed. And that's the main crux of the "blowout."


It is a foregone conclusion that he would be very vulnerable, given the chance, simply due to his extreme socialist agenda that Republicans do not agree with and they would immediately pounce upon it and beat it to the ground with great confidence and glee during the general election. They could bring many other undecideds to their side that way thus, easily defeat Sanders. That, among other things such as capitalizing on the fact about his advanced age, his inexperience with foreign matters and his being a turn-coat for his own selfish purposes. That would effectively convince many that he is certainly not the man for the job in Washington.



I know you don't care about Sanders because you are not a Democrat. I'm not sure as to your true political leanings but it could be Libertarian or along those lines if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, you may not place much importance on political parties but that is what Americans place great importance in, otherwise, there would not be the two major political parties, Republican and Democrat. And contrary to any other belief, when they go to vote they will be looking at which political party they are most aligned with in order to support. And sure issues matter. They matter a lot. But at the end of the day it all comes down to which party they want to win the White House, Republican or Democrat.

BTW, I'm glad we are having a civil discussion on this matter with some decorum.


This was a good post true.

I am not sure what Principles Mrs. Clinton has, but other than that, your points are well made.

[Common]

I don't care about his socialist views. I'm all for a balanced mixture of socialism and capitalism.

I like the guy actually.

I just don't think he can win a national election for President.

I just think voting for him is irresponsible because it would likely result in a Republican President.

Do you think Hillary can or do you just think shes got a tiny chance more than Sanders

[Common]

There is another thing, and people better take this seriously.

If Sanders gets the nomination, and Trump or Cruz get the nomination, Bloomberg is coming in. It is a sure thing. If Bloomberg comes in, it will then be highly possible that the election will go to the House of Representatives because no one will have 270 electoral votes. If that happens Trump or Cruz is the next president.

This is laughable, bloombergs decision to get into the race will have nothing to do with whether its sanders or clinton or Trump or Cruz. Bloombergs ego is bigger than trumps

[Common]

I am honestly at a loss for why so many Sanders supporters seem to think this will be a walk in the park. Clinton has barely gone after him because she wants the left with her if she wins. The Republicans havent gone after him because they want him to win. He has had it very easy so far. I think that fact has deluded some of his followers.

Its not a walk in the park and actually I think Hillary will win the primary in the end. What I am honestly at a loss for is why Hillary Supporters think she has any better chance to win the general than bernie sanders.

[Common Sense]

Its not a walk in the park and actually I think Hillary will win the primary in the end. What I am honestly at a loss for is why Hillary Supporters think she has any better chance to win the general than Bernie sanders.

The issue is the attacks on Bernie from the right have not even begun. They are an attack machine. If Sanders gets the nod, you will see attack ads painting him as a communist. As we've seen here at TPF, lots of not so bright people already believe that. The Reps will drive so much fear and paranoia into the scared little hearts and minds of mid westerners, that they would probably elect Trump or even Cruz over Bernie. He'll be torn apart on national defense, illegal immigration, gun control, the debt....

I love Bernie, don't get me wrong. He wants to make a fundamental change that I believe would be great for America. I just don't think it's ready. I wish it was.

[midcan5]

My issue with Sanders is he could easily lose should the republican party and its voters wake up and select a sane candidate. Think of Adlai Stevenson or George McGovern, good men, no chance, or Goldwater, no chance too. When people perceive you as way out there they scare easily. And please don't make a rational, intelligent argument that he is a good choice. This is America and Donald Trump is proof reason has no place here.


http://www.snopes.com/bernie-sanders-loser-meme/

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/10/6/1428616/-Bernie-Sanders-What-the-Hell-Have-You-Done-for-Us-Lately

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/members/bernard_sanders/400357


"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." Winston Churchill

[Green Arrow]

The issue is the attacks on Bernie from the right have not even begun. They are an attack machine. If Sanders gets the nod, you will see attack ads painting him as a communist. As we've seen here at TPF, lots of not so bright people already believe that. The Reps will drive so much fear and paranoia into the scared little hearts and minds of mid westerners, that they would probably elect Trump or even Cruz over Bernie. He'll be torn apart on national defense, illegal immigration, gun control, the debt....

I love Bernie, don't get me wrong. He wants to make a fundamental change that I believe would be great for America. I just don't think it's ready. I wish it was.

I'm not going to let the right-wing smear machine choose my candidate for me. If they destroy Bernie in the general (an assertion that can only be "supported" with fear-mongering) so be it. The day we let Republicans choose our candidates is the day we lose the war of ideas.

[Common Sense]

I'm not going to let the right-wing smear machine choose my candidate for me. If they destroy Bernie in the general (an assertion that can only be "supported" with fear-mongering) so be it. The day we let Republicans choose our candidates is the day we lose the war of ideas.

The "so be it" comes at such a high cost. Four to eight years of Republican control. Dismantling ACA, social services, increased military adventurism, potential war with Iran and the long term effect of filling the Supreme Court with ultra conservatives.

[del]

The "so be it" comes at such a high cost. Four to eight years of Republican control. Dismantling ACA, social services, increased military adventurism, potential war with Iran and the long term effect of filling the Supreme Court with ultra conservatives.

do you think hillary will stand against military adventurism?

she seems to be fine with it.

[Common Sense]

do you think hillary will stand against military adventurism?

she seems to be fine with it.

Probably at the same level as Obama. More than I would like, but far far less than most Republicans would do.

[Green Arrow]

The "so be it" comes at such a high cost. Four to eight years of Republican control. Dismantling ACA, social services, increased military adventurism, potential war with Iran and the long term effect of filling the Supreme Court with ultra conservatives.

If Trump is the nominee he'll be lucky to have one year, let alone four, and most certainly won't have more. That's assuming he even wins, and I don't buy for a second that independents would fear the word "socialist" more than the prospect of President Trump.

Second, the GOP would never really dismantle the ACA. They like several parts of it, particularly the most important part, the insurance mandate. They'll find a way to "fix" it and make it more palatable. Social services have never been dismantled by a Republican president and Republican-controlled Congress. Military adventurism and war with Iran will happen with President Clinton. There will likely only be one SCOTUS vacancy in the event of a GOP win, so that's hardly "filling the court with ultra-conservatives." The last GOP SCOTUS nominee was Roberts and he's really more of a centrist.

Really, the fear-mongering is getting ridiculous.

[Common Sense]

If Trump is the nominee he'll be lucky to have one year, let alone four, and most certainly won't have more. That's assuming he even wins, and I don't buy for a second that independents would fear the word "socialist" more than the prospect of President Trump.

Second, the GOP would never really dismantle the ACA. They like several parts of it, particularly the most important part, the insurance mandate. They'll find a way to "fix" it and make it more palatable. Social services have never been dismantled by a Republican president and Republican-controlled Congress. Military adventurism and war with Iran will happen with President Clinton. There will likely only be one SCOTUS vacancy in the event of a GOP win, so that's hardly "filling the court with ultra-conservatives." The last GOP SCOTUS nominee was Roberts and he's really more of a centrist.

Really, the fear-mongering is getting ridiculous.

It really all depends on who is nominated by the GOP. I think Sanders could beat Trump. I don't know if he could beat Cruz or Kasich.

Clinton wont push for war with Iran, she was instrumental in negotiations with them for the current deal.

Scalia, Kennedy and Ginsberg could all be gone under the next POTUS.

[nathanbforrest45]

Why would any foreign leader take either Sanders or Clinton seriously? Neither of them have shown any remarkable skills in this regard in the past. Sanders will push to become isolationist and gut our defense department, Clinton will just go along with whatever anyone else wants.

Neither of them have a clue how to restore America's glory days of economic growth. I believe Trump was correct when he said that he was the greatest job creator God ever put on the face of the earth. Both Sanders and Clinton will do little beyond expanding the welfare rolls

[Bo-4]

As for Hillary's record, I want someone like her with a set of brass balls in the WH, not some old 60's peacenik who would get no respect from third world despots and terrorist regimes.

I doubt there is anyone out there including Putin who wouldn't take her seriously.

Is it necessary for our president to be "respected by despots and terrorist regimes" - who cares?

What i don't want are any more stupid wars. Conventional warfare has achieved nothing for decades except to prop up the M.I.C., grow our debt and get thousands killed.

Covert ops, infiltration, improved intel, and targeted strikes do work. A no fly zone over Syria would likely get us into a war with Putin.

Hillary for me (and i defend her against Hillary Derangement sufferers almost daily) is too much of a hawk.

[Common Sense]

Why would any foreign leader take either Sanders or Clinton seriously? Neither of them have shown any remarkable skills in this regard in the past. Sanders will push to become isolationist and gut our defense department, Clinton will just go along with whatever anyone else wants.

Neither of them have a clue how to restore America's glory days of economic growth. I believe Trump was correct when he said that he was the greatest job creator God ever put on the face of the earth. Both Sanders and Clinton will do little beyond expanding the welfare rolls

Do you honestly believe any foreign leader would take Trump seriously???

[Bo-4]

The issue is the attacks on Bernie from the right have not even begun. They are an attack machine. If Sanders gets the nod, you will see attack ads painting him as a communist. As we've seen here at TPF, lots of not so bright people already believe that. The Reps will drive so much fear and paranoia into the scared little hearts and minds of mid westerners, that they would probably elect Trump or even Cruz over Bernie. He'll be torn apart on national defense, illegal immigration, gun control, the debt....

I love Bernie, don't get me wrong. He wants to make a fundamental change that I believe would be great for America. I just don't think it's ready. I wish it was.

Forgive me, but the attacks on Hillary would be far more brutal deserved or not. And what happens if we nominate her and the email thing blows up?

Polls aren't everything but they do mean something. Trump shows dead even with Hillary.. here he is against Bernie.



Quinnipiac (http://www.quinnipiac.edu/images/polling/us/us02052016_Ust53w.pdf)
2/2 - 2/4
1125 RV
2.9
49
39
Sanders +10


NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl (https://www.scribd.com/doc/295919133/NBC-WSJ-January-Poll)
1/9 - 1/13
800 RV
3.5
54
39
Sanders +15

[del]

given the personal animus so many republicans in congress seem to have towards hillary, does anyone think she can actually govern?

if she's elected, we'll have 4 years of benghazi, email and whatever else they dig up during the campaign.

[Common Sense]

Forgive me, but the attacks on Hillary would be far more brutal deserved or not. And what happens if we nominate her and the email thing blows up?

Polls aren't everything but they do mean something. Trump shows dead even with Hillary.. here he is against Bernie.



Quinnipiac (http://www.quinnipiac.edu/images/polling/us/us02052016_Ust53w.pdf)
2/2 - 2/4
1125 RV
2.9
49
39
Sanders +10


NBC News/Wall St. Jrnl (https://www.scribd.com/doc/295919133/NBC-WSJ-January-Poll)
1/9 - 1/13
800 RV
3.5
54
39
Sanders +15




I think it's too early for polls. The Republicans have been focused on Hillary, not on Bernie.

I think they would attack Hillary relentlessly, I do think she's a bit tougher in that regard and will fight back. They will attack Hilliary's character, but they will attack Bernie's ideology. They will scare the shit out of the American public by painting a dystopian America under Sanders that looks like Cuba.

Look, I'd love to see Bernie get the nod, but it will be nerve raking as hell.

[Green Arrow]

It really all depends on who is nominated by the GOP. I think Sanders could beat Trump. I don't know if he could beat Cruz or Kasich.

Clinton wont push for war with Iran, she was instrumental in negotiations with them for the current deal.

Scalia, Kennedy and Ginsberg could all be gone under the next POTUS.

Assuming you're right, that still adds at most two right-wingers, but again, Roberts was nominated by a Republican and he is a moderate at best.

[Common Sense]

Assuming you're right, that still adds at most two right-wingers, but again, Roberts was nominated by a Republican and he is a moderate at best.

Maybe, but what sort of justice do you think Cruz would nominate. Bush was a moderate with a hard on for war, but a moderate none the less.

[JDubya]

Do you think Hillary can or do you just think shes got a tiny chance more than Sanders



I think she has a significantly better chance than Sanders.



Its not a walk in the park and actually I think Hillary will win the primary in the end. What I am honestly at a loss for is why Hillary Supporters think she has any better chance to win the general than bernie sanders.

First of all, because they won't be able to tie the word SOCIALIST to her tail for one thing. Then there are her years of experience in the WH both as First Lady and Secretary of State. Not to mention her years as a Senator. Then there's the fact that she's a woman. She's going to get a huge number of women voters. Finally, there's the black and Latino vote. She would do much better amongst those groups.

[Bo-4]

given the personal animus so many republicans in congress seem to have towards hillary, does anyone think she can actually govern?

if she's elected, we'll have 4 years of benghazi, email and whatever else they dig up during the campaign.

Yep - you think they're deranged now?

If Republicans hold the Senate, count on articles of impeachment to be filed immediately.

[Cigar]

I think she has a significantly better chance than Sanders.




First of all, because they won't be able to tie the word SOCIALIST to her tail for one thing. Then there are her years of experience in the WH both as First Lady and Secretary of State. Not to mention her years as a Senator. Then there's the fact that she's a woman. She's going to get a huge number of women voters. Finally, there's the black and Latino vote. She would do much better amongst those groups.

https://eatsleeprunwine.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/patience-young-grasshopper.jpg

[Ransom]

given the personal animus so many republicans in congress seem to have towards hillary, does anyone think she can actually govern?

if she's elected, we'll have 4 years of benghazi, email and whatever else they dig up during the campaign.

I believe her personal animus for Republicans who she's labeled her primary enemy proves she isn't fit to govern. She's a political hack and a proven liar....that last fact no doubt the reason she needs many to come to her defense......as you're doing here.

Your excuses aren't even that good.

Thread banned at the request of the thread owner.

[Ransom]

I think it's too early for polls. The Republicans have been focused on Hillary, not on Bernie.

I think they would attack Hillary relentlessly, I do think she's a bit tougher in that regard and will fight back. They will attack Hilliary's character, but they will attack Bernie's ideology. They will scare the $#@! out of the American public by painting a dystopian America under Sanders that looks like Cuba.

Look, I'd love to see Bernie get the nod, but it will be nerve raking as hell.

We need not scare the hell out of anyone, CS. We merely print out our national debt and then add all the free sh!t Bernie is promising(so telling you'd be for ultra spending programs while we're under this deficit and debt trap, it would make the objective reader question your motives) to that number and show it to the American People. What Bernie is proposing is doubling down on the deficit spending in hopes he can tax and spend his way to prosperity. And you support that?

[kilgram]

Hillary supporters like JDubya, Mark III, and TrueBlue have expressed fear over the possibility of Bernie Sanders becoming the Democratic nominee because he is such a radical socialist.

My question is...how is he so radical, exactly? Let's look passed the evil "s" word and specifically look at his policies and how his positions on the issues stand with mainstream thought.

Healthcare - Virtually every developed nation on the planet has some form of nationalized healthcare. There are 32 nations that meet the "developed" criteria and all of them have nationalized healthcare, including the U.S. Of those 32 nations, exactly half of them, 16, have a single-payer system. Those nations are Norway, Japan, the United Kingdom, Kuwait, Sweden, Bahrain, Brunei, Canada, United Arab Emirates, Finland, Slovenia, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Spain, and Iceland. Another nine countries (Israel, Singapore, Hong Kong, Ireland, Australia, France, Denmark, the Netherlands, and New Zealand) have a two-tier system that is basically part single-payer, part insurance mandate. Additionally, as of January of last year, just over half of all Americans (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/229959-majority-still-support-single-payer-option-poll-finds) support a single-payer system.

I mean, really, this article from Mother Jones pretty well addresses my point: America's Views Align Surprisingly Well With Those of "Socialist" Bernie Sanders (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/senator-bernie-sanders-policy-platform-presidential-campaign)
A little correction. If I don't recall wrongly, Finland had a repay system(copay). You had to pay something to go to the doctor.

Apart that, agree.

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[kilgram]

I don't put a lot of stock in polls 9 months out from an election. As has been stated here by Mark III, once Bernie was the nominee and the Republicans started running the attack ads with pictures like this....

http://www.trevorloudon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/648px-David_green_bernie_sanders_dsa.jpg

You will see the Independent swing voters begin to move away from him.

As for Hillary's record, I want someone like her with a set of brass balls in the WH, not some old 60's peacenik who would get no respect from third world despots and terrorist regimes.

I doubt there is anyone out there including Putin who wouldn't take her seriously.

Plus, she'll have Bill right there at her right hand. Helluva asset.

And domestically, the far left's agenda is just unrealistic. We cannot afford all the stuff they want.

There will never be free college tuition and free universal health care in this country in our lifetimes.

Just will not happen.
Why not?

USA has enough GDP to pay that and more.

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