No Judge Did Not Order Apple To Break Encryption

[Matty]

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160216/17393733617/no-judge-did-not-just-order-apple-to-break-encryption-san-bernardino-shooters-iphone-to-create-new-backdoor.shtml



The order does not ask Apple to break the phone’s encryption, but rather to disable the feature that wipes the data on the phone after 10 incorrect tries at entering a password. That way, the government can try to crack the password using “brute force” — attempting tens of millions of combinations without risking the deletion of the data.

The order, signed by a magistrate judge in Los Angeles, comes a week after FBI Director James B. Comey told Congress that the bureau has not been able to open one of the killers’ phones. “It has been two months now, and we are still working on it,” he said.In other words, the order does not tell Apple to crack the encryption when Apple does not have the key. Rather, it is asking Apple to turn off a specific feature so that the FBI can try to brute force the key — and we can still argue over whether or not it's appropriate to force Apple to disable a key feature that is designed to protect someone's privacy. It also raises questions about whether or not Apple can just turn off that feature or if it will have to do development work to obey the court's order. In fact, the same report notes that there is no way for Apple to actually do this:

[Matty]

So I was correct. It is about the four digit passcode!

[MisterVeritis]

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160216/17393733617/no-judge-did-not-just-order-apple-to-break-encryption-san-bernardino-shooters-iphone-to-create-new-backdoor.shtml


The order does not ask Apple to break the phone’s encryption, but rather to disable the feature that wipes the data on the phone after 10 incorrect tries at entering a password. That way, the government can try to crack the password using “brute force” — attempting tens of millions of combinations without risking the deletion of the data.

The order, signed by a magistrate judge in Los Angeles, comes a week after FBI Director James B. Comey told Congress that the bureau has not been able to open one of the killers’ phones. “It has been two months now, and we are still working on it,” he said.
In other words, the order does not tell Apple to crack the encryption when Apple does not have the key. Rather, it is asking Apple to turn off a specific feature so that the FBI can try to brute force the key — and we can still argue over whether or not it's appropriate to force Apple to disable a key feature that is designed to protect someone's privacy. It also raises questions about whether or not Apple can just turn off that feature or if it will have to do development work to obey the court's order. In fact, the same report notes that there is no way for Apple to actually do this:
The goal is the same. Unlocking the phone provides decrypted access to the data that is encrypted-at-rest.

I did mention this in the other thread.

[MisterVeritis]

So I was correct. It is about the four digit passcode!
Or six digit code. Without the ability to unlock the phone the encrypted data is not accessible. Writing software to break the security features will allow access to all devices protected by the features. In my opinion, Apple will not do it.

Nor should they.

[Matty]

The goal is the same. Unlocking the phone provides decrypted access to the data that is encrypted-at-rest.

I did mention this in the other thread.



What they want is to eradicate the feature that erases all data after 10 unsuccessful attempts at cracking the four digit pass code. So if you wish to erase all your stored data guess what? Just put that pass code in erroneously on purpose ten times in a row.

[Matty]

Or six digit code. Without the ability to unlock the phone the encrypted data is not accessible. Writing software to break the security features will allow access to all devices protected by the features. In my opinion, Apple will not do it.

Nor should they.



I agree.

[MisterVeritis]

What they want is to eradicate the feature that erases all data after 10 unsuccessful attempts at cracking the four digit pass code. So if you wish to erase all your stored data guess what? Just put that pass code in erroneously on purpose ten times in a row.
Right.

If it works for one device it will work for all devices protected by those operating system features. We are back where we began.

[Common Sense]

Or six digit code. Without the ability to unlock the phone the encrypted data is not accessible. Writing software to break the security features will allow access to all devices protected by the features. In my opinion, Apple will not do it.

Nor should they.

iPhones can also be set up to use alpha numeric pass codes.

[MisterVeritis]

iPhones can also be set up to use alpha numeric pass codes.
Understood. I would use uppercase, lowercase and numbers. It greatly increases the brute force attack's "territory".

[Cthulhu]

This is garbage. They could just clone the device as many times as they want and so brute force that way.

They are just being lazy. And trying to chip away at privacy.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[Crepitus]

I still think it's naive to believe apple doesn't already have a way in.

[MisterVeritis]

This is garbage. They could just clone the device as many times as they want and so brute force that way.

They are just being lazy. And trying to chip away at privacy.

I agree. The goal is to end our ability to sustain any right to privacy from government officials. If Apple caves then this contest for the 4th amendment is over and the citizens have lost.

[MisterVeritis]

I still think it's naive to believe apple doesn't already have a way in.
Of course you do.

[Cthulhu]

I agree. The goal is to end our ability to sustain any right to privacy from government officials. If Apple caves then this contest for the 4th amendment is over and the citizens have lost.
If one wants security of information it is really not hard to accomplish.

I have encryption that is ready to use and the mightiest computers on the planet cannot touch it.

It's all about determination and creativity.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[MisterVeritis]

If one wants security of information it is really not hard to accomplish.

I have encryption that is ready to use and the mightiest computers on the planet cannot touch it.

It's all about determination and creativity.

True. Security built in is far better than security added on.

[Cthulhu]

True. Security built in is far better than security added on.
I disagree. But it depends on what you're protecting and how accessible the data you're protecting needs to be.

For most people digital ,PGP will do just fine.

If you're like me? Nope. I require more sauce.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[MisterVeritis]

I disagree. But it depends on what you're protecting and how accessible the data you're protecting needs to be.

For most people digital ,PGP will do just fine.

If you're like me? Nope. I require more sauce.


You are free to disagree.

If we want the masses to have their privacy back then the devices we use must have the encryption built in.

[Matty]

Of course you do.


I disagree! It works the same way pass codes for forums work. I think. Peter1469 , do you have access to our passwords or a way to get them?


Apple says they purposefully made access unavailable to them. Sounds ethical to me!

[Peter1469]

I disagree! It works the same way pass codes for forums work. I think. @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) , do you have access to our passwords or a way to get them?


Apple says they purposefully made access unavailable to them. Sounds ethical to me!

I do not think the forum has the ability to find passwords. I certainly don't.

[MisterVeritis]

I disagree! It works the same way pass codes for forums work. I think. @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) , do you have access to our passwords or a way to get them?


Apple says they purposefully made access unavailable to them. Sounds ethical to me!
It is no longer clear to me what you are disagreeing about. :-)

The alphanumeric up-to-six digit code is stored only on your local device. It is not sent over a network nor is it stored somewhere other than on your device.

[Matty]

It is no longer clear to me what you are disagreeing about. :-)

The alphanumeric up-to-six digit code is stored only on your local device. It is not sent over a network nor is it stored somewhere other than on your device.


I have no clue why you think I am disagreeing. Clear that mystery up first.

[Matty]

I do not think the forum has the ability to find passwords. I certainly don't.


And that is the case with Apple. It was done purposefully.

[MisterVeritis]

I disagree! It works the same way pass codes for forums work. I think. @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) , do you have access to our passwords or a way to get them?


I have no clue why you think I am disagreeing. Clear that mystery up first.
It is primarily because of the first two words and the exclamation point. :-)

[Ravens Fan]

Here is what Apple sent their customers on the subject. As an iPhone owner, I hope that Apple stands their ground.

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

[Matty]

I disagree! It works the same way pass codes for forums work. I think. @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) , do you have access to our passwords or a way to get them?


It is primarily because of the first two words and the exclamation point. :-)


so, then why did you reply that it was no longer clear to you what I was disagreeing about? Are you running around in circles chasing your tail?

[MisterVeritis]

Here is what Apple sent their customers on the subject. As an iPhone owner, I hope that Apple stands their ground.

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/
Thanks. I had not seen the letter. I maintain my position. Apple needs to stand firm.

[MisterVeritis]

so, then why did you reply that it was no longer clear to you what I was disagreeing about? Are you running around in circles chasing your tail?
LOL.

You said you disagreed. But then you stated no actual disagreement.

[Matty]

LOL.

You said you disagreed. But then you stated no actual disagreement.



Let let me clear this up. Maybe you will listen this time. Apple does not have the technology to break through your passcode. They purposefully excluded their ability to do so because they feared situations like this and because they are committed to personal privacy. Agreed?

[MisterVeritis]

Let let me clear this up. Maybe you will listen this time. Apple does not have the technology to break through your passcode. They purposefully excluded their ability to do so because they feared situations like this and because they are committed to personal privacy. Agreed?
Yes. But then, I am not the one who said I disagreed. You did! :-)

Consider it over.

[Matty]

Yes. But then, I am not the one who said I disagreed. You did! :-)

Consider it over.




Did i did I disagree with you? Or a person who said they believed Apple did have the technology?

[waltky]

Terrorist and drug cartel sympathizers ask Trump to protect encryption...
http://www.politicalforum.com/images/smilies/icon_omg.gif
U.S. internet firms ask Trump to support encryption, ease regulations
November 14, 2016 | WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. internet companies including Facebook Inc and Amazon Inc have sent President-elect Donald Trump a detailed list of their policy priorities, which includes promoting strong encryption, immigration reform and maintaining liability protections from content that users share on their platforms.


The letter sent on Monday by the Internet Association, a trade group whose 40 members also include Alphabet's Google, Uber [UBER.UL] and Twitter, represents an early effort to repair the relationship between the technology sector and Trump, who was almost universally disliked and at times denounced in Silicon Valley during the presidential campaign. “The internet industry looks forward to engaging in an open and productive dialogue,” reads the letter, signed by Michael Beckerman, president of the Internet Association, and seen by Reuters.

Some of the policy goals stated in the letter may align with Trump’s priorities, including easing regulation on the sharing economy, lowering taxes on profits made from intellectual property and applying pressure on Europe to not erect too many barriers that restrict U.S. internet companies from growing in that market. Other goals are likely to clash with Trump, who offered numerous broadsides against the tech sector during his campaign.

They include supporting strong encryption in products against efforts by law enforcement agencies to mandate access to data for criminal investigations, upholding recent reforms to U.S. government surveillance programs that ended the bulk collection of call data by the National Security Agency, and maintaining net neutrality rules that require internet service providers to treat web traffic equally. The association seeks immigration reform to support more high-skilled workers staying in the United States. Though Trump made tougher immigration policies a central theme of his campaign, he has at times shied away from arguing against more H-1B visas for skilled workers, saying in a March debate he was "softening the position because we need to have talented people in this country."

While urging support for trade agreements, the letter does not mention the Trans Pacific Partnership, which Trump has repeatedly assailed with claims it was poorly negotiated and would take jobs away from U.S. workers. The technology sector supported the deal, but members of Congress have conceded since the election it is not going to be enacted. Trump's often-shifting policy proposals on the campaign trail frequently alarmed tech companies and sometimes elicited public mockery, such as when Trump called for closing off parts of the internet to limit militant Islamist propaganda.

Trump has also urged a boycott of Apple Inc products over the company's refusal to help the Federal Bureau of Investigation unlock an iPhone associated with last year's San Bernardino, California, shootings, threatened antitrust action against Amazon, and demanded that tech companies such as Apple manufacture their products in the United States. In a statement, Beckerman said the internet industry looked forward to working closely with Trump and lawmakers in Congress to "cement the internet’s role as a driver of economic and social progress for future generations."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-internet-firms-ask-trump-support-encryption-ease-200356505--finance.html?ref=gs

[AeonPax]

`
`
I've been sending and receiving encrypted data online for years and at present, use a variation of an AES 256 bit application.

[Safety]

I think it's funny how people have an expection of privacy from a device that is made in a country which makes a living off of copying designs and technology from around the world.

Pro tip of the day: If you don't have an expectation of privacy in a device that you tweet your every waking activities on, then you will not be disappointed later...

[waltky]

Granny uses encryption to keep her special brownie recipe a secret...
:wink:
FBI Chief Calls Unbreakable Encryption 'Urgent Public Safety Issue'
January 09, 2018 — The inability of law enforcement authorities to access data from electronic devices due to powerful encryption is an "urgent public safety issue," FBI Director Christopher Wray said on Tuesday as he sought to renew a contentious debate over privacy and security.


The Federal Bureau of Investigation was unable to access data from nearly 7,800 devices in the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30 with technical tools despite possessing proper legal authority to pry them open, a growing figure that impacts every area of the agency's work, Wray said during a speech at a cyber security conference in New York. The FBI has been unable to access data in more than half of the devices that it tried to unlock due to encryption, Wray added. "This is an urgent public safety issue," Wray added, while saying that a solution is "not so clear cut." Technology companies and many digital security experts have said that the FBI's attempts to require that devices allow investigators a way to access a criminal suspect's cellphone would harm internet security and empower malicious hackers.

U.S. lawmakers, meanwhile, have expressed little interest in pursuing legislation to require companies to create products whose contents are accessible to authorities who obtain a warrant. Wray's comments at the International Conference on Cyber Security were his most extensive yet as FBI director about the so-called Going Dark problem, which his agency and local law enforcement authorities for years have said bedevils countless investigations. Wray took over as FBI chief in August. The FBI supports strong encryption and information security broadly, Wray said, but described the current status quo as untenable. "We face an enormous and increasing number of cases that rely heavily, if not exclusively, on electronic evidence," Wray told an audience of FBI agents, international law enforcement representatives and private sector cyber professionals.

A solution requires "significant innovation," Wray said, "but I just do not buy the claim that it is impossible." Wray's remarks echoed those of his predecessor, James Comey, who before being fired by President Donald Trump in May frequently spoke about the dangers of unbreakable encryption. Tech companies and many cyber security experts have said that any measure ensuring that law enforcement authorities are able to access data from encrypted products would weaken cyber security for everyone. U.S. officials have said that default encryption settings on cellphones and other devices hinder their ability to collect evidence needed to pursue criminals.

The matter came to a head in 2016 when the Justice Department tried unsuccessfully to force Apple to break into an iPhone used by a gunman during a mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. The Trump administration at times has taken a tougher stance on the issue than former President Barack Obama's administration. U.S. Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein in October chastised technology companies for building strongly encrypted products, suggesting Silicon Valley is more willing to comply with foreign government demands for data than those made by their home country.

https://www.voanews.com/a/fbi-chief-calls-unbreakable-encryption-urgent-public-safety-issue-/4200601.html

[Kacper]

We have to choose which is the bigger evil--hackers and such who can rob us blind or evil doers being outside the reach of eavesdropping.

[MisterVeritis]

Granny uses encryption to keep her special brownie recipe a secret...
:wink:
FBI Chief Calls Unbreakable Encryption 'Urgent Public Safety Issue'
January 09, 2018 — The inability of law enforcement authorities to access data from electronic devices due to powerful encryption is an "urgent public safety issue," FBI Director Christopher Wray said on Tuesday as he sought to renew a contentious debate over privacy and security.
Is the FBI chief calling for a Constitutional amendment to get around that pesky bill of rights?

Do we need a Constitutional amendment granting the government absolute authority to spy on every American at any time, any place and for any reason, or for no reason?

Wray needs to be replaced by someone who knows the Constitution and who will support and defend it as a bulwark against the federal government's greed for more power.

[Bethere]

We have to choose which is the bigger evil--hackers and such who can rob us blind or evil doers being outside the reach of eavesdropping.

A tough choice.

[Kacper]

A tough choice.

Not for me. I say lock down encryption. It isn't like a terrorist attack will ever be committed by evil doers or prevented in by the government in my area during my lifetime. Our local Muslims are too busy worshiping the prophet Benjamin Franklin.