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Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 09:43 AM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 09:47 AM
The Pope is only speaking his mind. He's not making any orders, nor is he interfering with the political process.

You hear from plenty of American pastors, evangelical and others...yet you don't hear anyone telling them to shut up. It could be because they agree with what those religious leaders say. When they don't agree with the Pope, suddenly religious leaders should keep quite? Smells like hypocrisy to me.

If you don't like what the Pope has to say, don't listen.

Safety
02-19-2016, 09:47 AM
If the pope was right leaning instead of left, he would be heralded by the right, and asked to speak more about politics.

del
02-19-2016, 09:48 AM
the pope has every right to comment on american politics.

it's not like he's a canadian or something

Chris
02-19-2016, 09:53 AM
The Pope is only speaking his mind. He's not making any orders, nor is he interfering with the political process.

You hear from plenty of American pastors, evangelical and others...yet you don't hear anyone telling them to shut up. It could be because they agree with what those religious leaders say. When they don't agree with the Pope, suddenly religious leaders should keep quite? Smells like hypocrisy to me.

If you don't like what the Pope has to say, don't listen.



Well, technically, he's "Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the Vatican City State, Servant of the servants of God." @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope#Official_list_of_titles


But I see no reason for him not to speak up. And agree, "If you don't like what the Pope has to say, don't listen."

Cigar
02-19-2016, 10:00 AM
The Pope was reciting scripture ... kinda surprised The Donald didn't know that ... being a Christin and all. :grin:

http://assets.amuniversal.com/ab1c92e0b8d00133405d005056a9545d.jpg
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoons/PlantB/2016/PlantB20160219_low.jpg

Matty
02-19-2016, 10:33 AM
I never said he should stay out of politics. If he wants to comment on politics in the US then he should be prepared to hear our responses which for me is "poop on you pope, you don't pay our bills and you live in a huge walled city so you are a damn hypocrite."

Ethereal
02-19-2016, 10:34 AM
If the Pope wants to stand up for foreign nationals illegally occupying America, then he has every right to do that.

And if Democrats want to celebrate his defense of lawlessness, then they have every right to do that, too.

pjohns
02-19-2016, 11:01 AM
Why should the Pope stay out of politics?

Simply put: Because it is not his area of expertise.

He may certainly speak, as a private citizen, on political matters.

But he should not speak, as the pope (i.e. ex cathedra), on political matters...

AeonPax
02-19-2016, 11:28 AM
Simply put: Because it is not his area of expertise. He may certainly speak, as a private citizen, on political matters.But he should not speak, as the pope (i.e. ex cathedra), on political matters...
`
The last time a Pope invoked "ex cathedra" was in 1958 to say that Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul. (Feast of the Assumption). Before that, it was in the late 1600's. The Pope is the secular head of the Vatican State (The Holy See).

Common
02-19-2016, 12:08 PM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?


Like anything else there are underlying reasons for the popes actions. Hes not doing all this out of the goodness of his heart like many want to believe.

Before he was annointed pope, there was talk that the next pope had to be from South America. The reason for that is pretty simple and financially based. Every where else catholicism is diminished and fading fast. Their basic money pit the USA has dried up and churchs are closing. The last bastion of undieing catholicism is South America and Mexico without them the Vatican and all those who are in it would cease to be able to afford Lobster and Filet mignon and 100.00 bottles of Vino. This whole thing surrounding Pope Franny is about cash

Hes making brownie points.

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 12:16 PM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?

The only reason that I can see is that if he was a US Baptist pastor, the left would be calling for his church to loose it's tax exempt status.

I see no reason why all religions can't participate in politics. I think it is their first amendment rights.

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 12:18 PM
If the pope was right leaning instead of left, he would be heralded by the right, and asked to speak more about politics.

And the left would be calling for the Catholic church to loose it tax exempt status. Lets not pretend that the left does not try and silence the church when they are at odds with it.

The Xl
02-19-2016, 12:19 PM
He can do what he wants, just let it be known that he's openly shilling for the American corporate and political establishment.

Criticizing Trump is fine, but I can guarantee that the sins of the Obama's, Clinton's, Bush's, etc, won't bother him as much. If this pope was worth shit, he'd routinely be criticizing our foreign policy among other things.

Mac-7
02-19-2016, 12:48 PM
Has this pope spoken out against the homosexual priests slinking around in his own church?

Commie popes who live in glass houses should not throw stones

pjohns
02-19-2016, 12:49 PM
I will go one step further: An evangelical Protestant minister should also not get involved in politics, in my opinion.

That is because he would (unduly, in my opinion) influence others to vote the same way that he has pronounced his allegiance...

Truth Detector
02-19-2016, 12:50 PM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?

I don't think it was politics; I think the claim was stay out of OUR politics. Let's get our talking points straight here.

The Catholic Church has ALWAYS been about politics and control.....just not here in America.

Truth Detector
02-19-2016, 12:51 PM
If the pope was right leaning instead of left, he would be heralded by the right, and asked to speak more about politics.

.....because you say so. There, I fixed your dogma for you.

Mac-7
02-19-2016, 12:52 PM
There is also the issue of the leader of a foreign country interfering in the internal politics of the United States.

Truth Detector
02-19-2016, 12:52 PM
the pope has every right to comment on american politics.

And we have every right to tell him to STFU and mind his own business. After all, his church is the church of the pedophiles and abusers is it not?


it's not like he's a canadian or something

Same thing applies to Kanukistanians. :biglaugh:

Truth Detector
02-19-2016, 12:55 PM
If this pope was worth $#@!, he'd routinely be criticizing our foreign policy among other things.

Yeah; because everyone else's foreign policy is stellar and we are the evil EMPIRE! :biglaugh:

The Xl
02-19-2016, 12:59 PM
Yeah; because everyone else's foreign policy is stellar and we are the evil EMPIRE! :biglaugh:

I'm not worried about what others do. I'm worried about what we're doing. And it sucks

Ethereal
02-19-2016, 01:08 PM
I'm not worried about what others do. I'm worried about what we're doing. And it sucks

Then you must hate America.

Matty
02-19-2016, 01:11 PM
I'm not worried about what others do. I'm worried about what we're doing. And it sucks


What are we doing that displeases you?

AeonPax
02-19-2016, 01:48 PM
`
`
Once again, the people least capable of articulating an intelligent reply are the ones who say the most. There is no law anywhere, that says Pope cannot comment on things outside his ecclesiastical authority. As the Pope is a man of peace, love and forgiveness, it is natural the GOP, conservatives and religious right, hate him with so much venom. No surprise to me at least.

Chris
02-19-2016, 01:59 PM
`
`
Once again, the people least capable of articulating an intelligent reply are the ones who say the most. There is no law anywhere, that says Pope cannot comment on things outside his ecclesiastical authority. As the Pope is a man of peace, love and forgiveness, it is natural the GOP, conservatives and religious right, hate him with so much venom. No surprise to me at least.


the people least capable of articulating an intelligent reply are the ones who say the most

Do you mean use the most words? Like this...

http://i.snag.gy/DFagw.jpg

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 02:08 PM
I don't think it was politics; I think the claim was stay out of OUR politics. Let's get our talking points straight here.

The Catholic Church has ALWAYS been about politics and control.....just not here in America.

Okay. Why can't he weigh in on our politics?

Also, keep your insults and belittling nonsense to yourself or leave the thread.

Tricia
02-19-2016, 02:08 PM
The Pope was reciting scripture ... kinda surprised The Donald didn't know that ... being a Christin and all. :grin:

http://assets.amuniversal.com/ab1c92e0b8d00133405d005056a9545d.jpg
http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoons/PlantB/2016/PlantB20160219_low.jpg

Cigar has been TBed at request of the OP.

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 02:09 PM
`
`
Once again, the people least capable of articulating an intelligent reply are the ones who say the most. There is no law anywhere, that says Pope cannot comment on things outside his ecclesiastical authority. As the Pope is a man of peace, love and forgiveness, it is natural the GOP, conservatives and religious right, hate him with so much venom. No surprise to me at least.

Save the partisan sniping for another thread, please.

AeonPax
02-19-2016, 02:13 PM
Do you mean use the most words? Like this...
`
Not quite. I said, the most to SAY (utter words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction). Whether it is intelligent, wise or insightful is another thing altogether.

Tricia
02-19-2016, 02:13 PM
Has this pope spoken out against the homosexual priests slinking around in his own church?

Commie popes who live in glass houses should not throw stones

Mac-7 has been TBed from this thread at the request of the OP.

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 02:24 PM
`
`
Once again, the people least capable of articulating an intelligent reply are the ones who say the most. There is no law anywhere, that says Pope cannot comment on things outside his ecclesiastical authority. As the Pope is a man of peace, love and forgiveness, it is natural the GOP, conservatives and religious right, hate him with so much venom. No surprise to me at least.

I don't remember the right being the party that wants eliminate religion from the public sector? Seems to me that the DNC holds that title?

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 04:54 PM
So, still not seeing a real answer to this question.

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 04:56 PM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?

He should stay out of US politics. He is a sovereign of a foreign power.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 04:56 PM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?

He should not but the Catholic church should lose its tax exempt status.

Mister D
02-19-2016, 04:59 PM
He should not but the Catholic church should lose its tax exempt status.

You're confused. Catholic clergy don't mix much in the way of politics with their homilies. They can have political opinions and state them publicly like everyone else.

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 05:01 PM
He should stay out of US politics. He is a sovereign of a foreign power.

He is the leader of a religion that has many followers in the U.S. If U.S. policy impacts his flock (and it irrefutably does), he has a right and responsibility to be involved.

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 05:01 PM
He should not but the Catholic church should lose its tax exempt status.

Why?

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:02 PM
He should stay out of US politics. He is a sovereign of a foreign power.

I wouldn't exactly call the Vatican a foreign power. Did the Swiss Guard buy some F-16's lately?

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:03 PM
He should not but the Catholic church should lose its tax exempt status.

Would every church in America that has spoken about politics loose that status as well?

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 05:04 PM
You're confused. Catholic clergy don't mix much in the way of politics with their homilies. They can have political opinions and state them publicly like everyone else.

No confusion. The head of the Church is trying to influence a national election.

Tahuyaman
02-19-2016, 05:04 PM
Hyporcicy reigns

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:06 PM
No confusion. The head of the Church is trying to influence a national election.

Jerry Falwell Jr. openly supports Republicans as do many evangelicals. Should they loose their tax exempt status?

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 05:06 PM
Hyporcicy reigns

You want to answer the question intelligently?

Tahuyaman
02-19-2016, 05:08 PM
No confusion. The head of the Church is trying to influence a national election.


Yes, a person many consider a world leader is trying to force his personal religious views onto others through the force of government. But as long as this person is extolling the virtues of socialism and criticizing capitalism, the left is not up in arms about it.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 05:09 PM
Would every church in America that has spoken about politics loose that status as well?

Speaking out directly, naming an individual as he did, by law, yes!


Jeopardizing Tax-Exempt StatusAll IRC Section 501(c)(3) organizations, including churches and religiousorganizations, must abide by certain rules:n their net earnings may not inure to any private shareholder or individual;n they must not provide a substantial benefit to private interests;n they must not devote a substantial part of their activities to attempting toinfluence legislation;n they must not participate in, or intervene in, any political campaign on behalf of(or in opposition to) any candidate for public office; andn the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violatefundamental public policy.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

He, as the head of the Church, has made statements in opposition to a candidate.

Matty
02-19-2016, 05:10 PM
You want to answer the question intelligently?


his response was succinct and to the point. Very intelligent.

Tahuyaman
02-19-2016, 05:10 PM
You want to answer the question intelligently?

keep reading

Matty
02-19-2016, 05:11 PM
Jerry Falwell Jr. openly supports Republicans as do many evangelicals. Should they loose their tax exempt status?


Jerry Falwell is a US citizen. The poopy pope is not. He is a South Americn Marxist living in a great walled city.

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:13 PM
Speaking out directly, naming an individual as he did, by law, yes!



https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

He, as the head of the Church, has made statements in opposition to a candidate.

Falwell has supported Trump directly.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/26/evangelical-leader-jerry-falwell-jr-endorses-trump/

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:13 PM
Jerry Falwell is a US citizen. The poopy pope is not. He is a South Americn Marxist living in a great walled city.

So? What's your point?

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 05:16 PM
Jerry Falwell Jr. openly supports Republicans as do many evangelicals. Should they loose their tax exempt status?

He supports a party, he is not the head of a big denomination and if he pushes it, his (if he is the head of it) 501(c)(3) is in violation of the code and should lose tax exempt status.

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:18 PM
He supports a party, he is not the head of a big denomination and if he pushes it, his (if he is the head of it) 501(c)(3) is in violation of the code and should lose tax exempt status.

What does the size of the denomination have anything to do with it?

Both situations are the same. They are religious leaders making a political statement. One is for one candidate, one is against.

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 05:19 PM
He is the leader of a religion that has many followers in the U.S. If U.S. policy impacts his flock (and it irrefutably does), he has a right and responsibility to be involved.

I disagree.

If the President of France gave his opinion on our Presidential race I would suggest that STFU would be the better part of valor. The Pope too.

Cletus
02-19-2016, 05:20 PM
`
`
Once again, the people least capable of articulating an intelligent reply are the ones who say the most.

You are a great example of that.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 05:21 PM
Falwell has supported Trump directly.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/01/26/evangelical-leader-jerry-falwell-jr-endorses-trump/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/09/14/bernie-sanders-liberty-university-speech-annotated/

Liberty university allows all.

As to him? Is it his 501?

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 05:22 PM
I wouldn't exactly call the Vatican a foreign power. Did the Swiss Guard buy some F-16's lately?

It is a sovereign state (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-the-vatican-really-a-country).


The Vatican enters into diplomatic relations with other sovereign states, but remains strictly neutral in political matters.

Or use to.... :shocked:

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:23 PM
It is a sovereign state (http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-the-vatican-really-a-country).



Or use to.... :shocked:

Of course it's a sovereign state. I didn't say it wasn't. I was merely laughing at the idea of it being a foreign power. It once was.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 05:23 PM
What does the size of the denomination have anything to do with it?

Both situations are the same. They are religious leaders making a political statement. One is for one candidate, one is against.

Size has everything to do with it in this case. Farwell is an individual. The catholics are supposed to believe the Pope speaks for God! God hates trump because he builds walls and not bridges. A vote for Trump is a vote against God.

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:27 PM
Size has everything to do with it in this case. Farwell is an individual. The catholics are supposed to believe the Pope speaks for God! God hates trump because he builds walls and not bridges. A vote for Trump is a vote against God.

The Pope is an individual as well. It doesn't matter what his adherents think he is.

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 05:27 PM
Of course it's a sovereign state. I didn't say it wasn't. I was merely laughing at the idea of it being a foreign power. It once was.

Oh. Quibbling over words. I didn't mean that they were a military power.

Common
02-19-2016, 05:31 PM
After posting what I did about the reasons he does what he does, I realized I really didnt answer the question the op posed.

The pope has every right to take a political stance as a Jerry Falwell has and the Christian Coalition and every other prominent christian preacher. As well as the Rev Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and all the black ministers.

Why isnt ok for him and all the others that wear the religious tag

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:32 PM
Oh. Quibbling over words. I didn't mean that they were a military power.

I meant it lightheartedly.

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 05:32 PM
Speaking out directly, naming an individual as he did, by law, yes!



https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

He, as the head of the Church, has made statements in opposition to a candidate.

He didn't name an individual. Nowhere in the Pope's remarks did any name appear.

Common Sense
02-19-2016, 05:33 PM
After posting what I did about the reasons he does what he does, I realized I really didnt answer the question the op posed.

The pope has every right to take a political stance as a Jerry Falwell has and the Christian Coalition and every other prominent christian preacher. As well as the Rev Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and all the black ministers.

Why isnt ok for him and all the others that wear the religious tag

Exactly. If people are opposed to the pope saying anything, they should be against the huge amount of evangelical leaders who sway their huge congregations and openly support and criticize candidates.

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 05:34 PM
I meant it lightheartedly.

Anyway, the Vatican has no room to put a run way long enough to land and deploy F-16s. :wink:

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 05:36 PM
Exactly. If people are opposed to the pope saying anything, they should be against the huge amount of evangelical leaders who sway their huge congregations and openly support and criticize candidates.

Last summer we posted a thread about this- the wide latitude that religion has been provided in American politics, despite the tax laws. It was a good read.

Peter1469
02-19-2016, 05:37 PM
Jerry Falwell is a US citizen. The poopy pope is not. He is a South Americn Marxist living in a great walled city.


Notice: Thread banned at the request of the thread owner.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 05:43 PM
He didn't name an individual. Nowhere in the Pope's remarks did any name appear.

He did not need to name anyone and he IS trying to influence US politics, directly!

suds00
02-19-2016, 05:52 PM
immediately trump became defensive.building a wall is not a nice thing to do

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 05:58 PM
He did not need to name anyone and he IS trying to influence US politics, directly!

He was specifically asked a question, what do you want him to do, lie? Ignore it? He was asked by a member of the media what he thought about Trump's wall-building and he said, in a general sense, that building walls instead of bridges is not the Christian thing to do.

The media, not the Pope, is trying to influence U.S. politics and far too many people are letting them get away with it by condemning the Pope instead of the corrupt media.

AeonPax
02-19-2016, 06:05 PM
I don't remember the right being the party that wants eliminate religion from the public sector? Seems to me that the DNC holds that title?
`
We do not share the same values. I have no use for either 'for profit' party.

AeonPax
02-19-2016, 06:06 PM
You are a great example of that.
`
That was an interesting come-back.

MisterVeritis
02-19-2016, 06:07 PM
So, still not seeing a real answer to this question.
He is not a US citizen for starters. Heads of other states should not intrude upon things that are of no concern to them. Not that it matters. The Idiot Marxist Pope (IMP) has backed off.

MisterVeritis
02-19-2016, 06:09 PM
He is the leader of a religion that has many followers in the U.S. If U.S. policy impacts his flock (and it irrefutably does), he has a right and responsibility to be involved.
No. He doesn't. The IMP has no role to play in US politics.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 06:14 PM
He was specifically asked a question, what do you want him to do, lie? Ignore it? He was asked by a member of the media what he thought about Trump's wall-building and he said, in a general sense, that building walls instead of bridges is not the Christian thing to do.

The media, not the Pope, is trying to influence U.S. politics and far too many people are letting them get away with it by condemning the Pope instead of the corrupt media.

I am going to have to disagree with you. But I also hate organized religion, I go to an independent church and we march to our own drum.

Green Arrow
02-19-2016, 06:16 PM
I am going to have to disagree with you. But I also hate organized religion, I go to an independent church and we march to our own drum.

No, you hate the organized religion of others. You still follow organized religion, but it's an organized religion you like.

Chris
02-19-2016, 06:18 PM
Actually, I think the Pope should get into politics more, and Trump should get out. :pope:

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 08:04 PM
No, you hate the organized religion of others. You still follow organized religion, but it's an organized religion you like.

Nope! Organized religion is for weak minded people.

Organized religion (or organised religion—see spelling differences), also known as institutional religion, is religion as a social institution, in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established.

Organized religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_religion)

Mister D
02-19-2016, 09:27 PM
Nope! Organized religion is for weak minded people.


Organized religion (or organised religion—see spelling differences), also known as institutional religion, is religion as a social institution, in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established.

Organized religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organized_religion)



You are a member of a church. You belong to an organized religion. Moreover, a Christian is a member of an organized religion by definition.

Captain Obvious
02-19-2016, 09:29 PM
You are a member of a church. You being to an organized religion. Moreover, a Christian is a member of an organized religion by definition.

Can one believe in Christ and be distanced from organized religion?

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 09:33 PM
Jerry Falwell Jr. openly supports Republicans as do many evangelicals. Should they loose their tax exempt status?

I think that it should be all or none! So if the Catholic were to lose their status, then all others should as well? and if the Catholics do not? Then the others should not

Mister D
02-19-2016, 09:36 PM
Can one believe in Christ and be distanced from organized religion?

If you are a Christian you are a member of an organized religion.

Captain Obvious
02-19-2016, 09:39 PM
If you are a Christian you are a member of an organized religion.

You didn't answer the question.

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 09:40 PM
`
We do not share the same values. I have no use for either 'for profit' party.

I wish they were for profit parties, then we would not have the Debt that we have today.

I like profit, it allows you to take care of others.

Mister D
02-19-2016, 09:41 PM
You didn't answer the question.

Sorry, I thought it was implied. No. You can't. It would be like a Muslim distancing himself from Islam. It doesn't make any sense.

Captain Obvious
02-19-2016, 09:42 PM
I wish they were for profit parties, then we would not have the Debt that we have today.

I like profit, it allows you to take care of others.

That explains the massive wealth gap

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 09:42 PM
Can one believe in Christ and be distanced from organized religion?

Why not?

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 09:43 PM
That explains the massive wealth gap

That and people that are too lazy to work? becoming wealthy or rich is not easy.

zelmo1234
02-19-2016, 09:45 PM
If you are a Christian you are a member of an organized religion.

I don't believe so. You could be a Christian, (one that has accepted Christ as their personal savior, and confessed their sins) Then need never set foot in a church

Captain Obvious
02-19-2016, 09:45 PM
That and people that are too lazy to work? becoming wealthy or rich is not easy.

Thank you for contradicting yourself and making my point.

Too easy sometimes.

Mister D
02-19-2016, 09:49 PM
I don't believe so. You could be a Christian, (one that has accepted Christ as their personal savior, and confessed their sins) Then need never set foot in a church

You embrace the tenets of Christianity which is an organized religion. But then "organized religion" is redundant anyway. Saying you are a Christian and a member of a church is like saying you're an American who is also a citizen of a country.

Archer0915
02-19-2016, 10:05 PM
You are a member of a church. You belong to an organized religion. Moreover, a Christian is a member of an organized religion by definition.

No! You can have your opinion but I go to a Church. I do not accept the lies that people that call themselves spew of the crap the ignorant haters of Christians spew.

I do not need a Church or preachers or deacons or ant of that. I do not depend on it either.

Mister D
02-19-2016, 10:10 PM
No! You can have your opinion but I go to a Church. I do not accept the lies that people that call themselves spew of the crap the ignorant haters of Christians spew.

I do not need a Church or preachers or deacons or ant of that. I do not depend on it either.

But you accept the tenets of a particular faith. You accept a dogma. You are a member of an organized religion.

SemiteArt
02-20-2016, 08:07 AM
Pope was always in politics and will be. Nowadays he is busy with the blue file. Trying to band together Crusades again.

Peter1469
02-20-2016, 08:20 AM
Pope was always in politics and will be. Nowadays he is busy with the blue file. Trying to band together Crusades again.

Untrue. Link provided above. Read first, then post.

Archer0915
02-20-2016, 08:32 AM
But you accept the tenets of a particular faith. You accept a dogma. You are a member of an organized religion.

you do not know what I accept, I will fill you in, not much.

SemiteArt
02-20-2016, 09:07 AM
Untrue. Link provided above. Read first, then post.


Hello terrorist marine mod, I dont understand what you mean.

Peter1469
02-20-2016, 10:36 AM
Hello terrorist marine mod, I dont understand what you mean.

Dude. Army get it right. 25 years of service. Army. Not marines. Not navy. Not air force.

pjohns
02-20-2016, 12:26 PM
Exactly. If people are opposed to the pope saying anything, they should be against the huge amount of evangelical leaders who sway their huge congregations and openly support and criticize candidates.

Please see what I said in post #16, in this thread...

Tricia
02-20-2016, 12:39 PM
Hello terrorist marine mod, I dont understand what you mean.

SemiteArt has been TBed at the request of the OP.

Archer0915
02-20-2016, 07:37 PM
What does the size of the denomination have anything to do with it?

Both situations are the same. They are religious leaders making a political statement. One is for one candidate, one is against.

Actually not. The Pope is the defacto CEO of a non profit.

What is Farwell? Is he the head of the 501 (c) (3)? If he is not then he is just another talking head.

Honestly the government has cut too much slack in regard to tax exempt status.

Captain Obvious
02-20-2016, 07:52 PM
Sorry, I thought it was implied. No. You can't. It would be like a Muslim distancing himself from Islam. It doesn't make any sense.

Sorry Mister D , totally missed your reply even though I posted immediately after it.

I don't agree. So believing in Christ automatically enrolls you in organized religion?

Nope, don't buy it.

Mister D
02-20-2016, 07:55 PM
Sorry @Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4) , totally missed your reply even though I posted immediately after it.

I don't agree. So believing in Christ automatically enrolls you in organized religion?

Nope, don't buy it.

If by "believing in Christ" you mean being a Christian of course that makes you part of an organized religion. I'm not sure why this bothers some of you. I didn't you you are members of a church even though...I guess in a sense you are. What is the church but the body of Christ?

Captain Obvious
02-20-2016, 07:57 PM
If by "believing in Christ" you mean being a Christian of course that makes you part of an organized religion. I'm not sure why this bothers some of you. I didn't you you are members of a church even though...I guess in a sense you are. What is the church but the body of Christ?

Which church? There are dozens of "Christian" churches.

That's Christ's plan, dozens of denominations?

Mister D
02-20-2016, 08:00 PM
Which church? There are dozens of "Christian" churches.

That's Christ's plan, dozens of denominations?

I said in a sense. That's one sense of "church". It can refer to the mystical body of Christ (i.e all believers), a sect like Lutherans or to the building people use for their services.

No, Christ's plan, or rather the Father's, was our redemption through his Son Jesus Christ. If you believe that I don't quite see how you can say you are not a member of an organized religion.

sachem
02-20-2016, 08:12 PM
I keep hearing from everyone, even (ironically) evangelical Christian conservatives, that the Pope should not get involved in politics.

Why should the Pope stay out of politics?Politics, the lifeblood of the Vatican.

I think there is a line not to cross as far as the Pope getting involved in politics of other countries. But it is hard to say what/where exactly that line is.

I often think American clergy should not publically support political parties/candidates or risk losing the tax exempt status of their church. But like most folks, that opinion changes depending on whether I agree with their views/beliefs.

Green Arrow
02-20-2016, 08:32 PM
Politics, the lifeblood of the Vatican.

I think there is a line not to cross as far as the Pope getting involved in politics of other countries. But it is hard to say what/where exactly that line is.

I often think American clergy should not publically support political parties/candidates or risk losing the tax exempt status of their church. But like most folks, that opinion changes depending on whether I agree with their views/beliefs.

I don't necessarily disagree with that.

(God bless Ireland!)

Captain Obvious
02-20-2016, 08:36 PM
I said in a sense. That's one sense of "church". It can refer to the mystical body of Christ (i.e all believers), a sect like Lutherans or to the building people use for their services.

No, Christ's plan, or rather the Father's, was our redemption through his Son Jesus Christ. If you believe that I don't quite see how you can say you are not a member of an organized religion.

I believe in many principles claimed by the GOP, does that make me a Republican?

Christianity is not an organized religion. Catholicism is, Lutheranism is. They're subsets of Christianity.

Ironically, you're proving that Christianity is a very unorganized religion.

Mister D
02-20-2016, 11:25 PM
I believe in many principles claimed by the GOP, does that make me a Republican?

Christianity is not an organized religion. Catholicism is, Lutheranism is. They're subsets of Christianity.

Ironically, you're proving that Christianity is a very unorganized religion.

You accept a religious tradition. There is nothing unorganized about that. if it was you could believe whatever you want but you can't and still be a Christian. People like Dr. Who and Peter1469 have a spirituality that is undoubtedly heavily influenced by the Christian culture they grew up in but I would not call either of them Christians. Islam is a very disorganized religion but, aside from the "what about Christians!" apologists for Islamic radicalism, no one seriously believes Osama bin Laden was not a Muslim.

Mister D
02-20-2016, 11:29 PM
And, quite frankly, that the Pope or any other religious figure should stay out politics is a liberal conceit. It's merely asserted. I don't accept the premise that religion has no place in politics. Don't like the Pope speaking his mind? Too bad.

domer76
02-21-2016, 03:06 AM
And, quite frankly, that the Pope or any other religious figure should stay out politics is a liberal conceit. It's merely asserted. I don't accept the premise that religion has no place in politics. Don't like the Pope speaking his mind? Too bad.

Great. When your religious leaders enter into politics, time to lose your tax exempt status. Works for me.

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 06:11 AM
Great. When your religious leaders enter into politics, time to lose your tax exempt status. Works for me.


What made you butt-hurt over religion?

AeonPax
02-21-2016, 06:19 AM
Actually not. The Pope is the defacto CEO of a non profit. What is Farwell? Is he the head of the 501 (c) (3)? If he is not then he is just another talking head. Honestly the government has cut too much slack in regard to tax exempt status.
`
The Pope is under the jurisdiction of Italian law, not US law.

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 06:22 AM
`
The Pope is under the jurisdiction of Italian law, not US law.
The Vatican is sovereign.

AeonPax
02-21-2016, 06:32 AM
The Vatican is sovereign.
`
Yes and it, by treaty between the Vatican State and Italy, is basically covered by Italian law. See; Lateran Treaty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateran_Treaty)

domer76
02-21-2016, 07:07 AM
What made you butt-hurt over religion?

Great. When your religious leaders enter into politics, time to lose your tax exempt status. Works for me.

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 07:08 AM
Great. When your religious leaders enter into politics, time to lose your tax exempt status. Works for me.


Sore?

Captain Obvious
02-21-2016, 08:30 AM
You accept a religious tradition. There is nothing unorganized about that. if it was you could believe whatever you want but you can't and still be a Christian. People like Dr. Who and Peter1469 have a spirituality that is undoubtedly heavily influenced by the Christian culture they grew up in but I would not call either of them Christians. Islam is a very disorganized religion but, aside from the "what about Christians!" apologists for Islamic radicalism, no one seriously believes Osama bin Laden was not a Muslim.

So accepting a religious tradition is good enough? For Christ?

iolo
02-21-2016, 08:35 AM
Simply put: Because it is not his area of expertise.

He may certainly speak, as a private citizen, on political matters.

But he should not speak, as the pope (i.e. ex cathedra), on political matters...

It hardly seems Mr Trump's area of expertise either, surely? 'Give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's?' Your problem then is to know what isn't God's, I suppose

domer76
02-21-2016, 08:46 AM
Sore?

Keep your religious matters within your church. When you choose to dabble in the secular world, you play by secular rules. That means taxes, baby. What is so difficult to understand on the issue?

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 08:48 AM
Keep your religious matters within your church. When you choose to dabble in the secular world, you play by secular rules. That means taxes, baby. What is so difficult to understand on the issue?

I don't belong to a church. You sore?

domer76
02-21-2016, 08:50 AM
I don't belong to a church. You sore?

And that you don't changes not a fucking thing.

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 08:54 AM
And that you don't changes not a fucking thing.

Right. You got hurt when you were little and now you are lashing out.

Nobody cares.

domer76
02-21-2016, 09:07 AM
Right. You got hurt when you were little and now you are lashing out.

Nobody cares.

You dense?

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 09:11 AM
You dense?

no. :smiley:

Also I am not autistic.

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 09:22 AM
Great. When your religious leaders enter into politics, time to lose your tax exempt status. Works for me.

Should we treat charities the same way?

domer76
02-21-2016, 09:49 AM
Should we treat charities the same way?

If they step over the line into the political world, as many churches do, yep. The tax code is pretty clear.

domer76
02-21-2016, 09:50 AM
no. :smiley:

Also I am not autistic.

Stick with things you're good at. Amateur pyschology? You have zero talent.

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 10:14 AM
If they step over the line into the political world, as many churches do, yep. The tax code is pretty clear.

I get that's what the tax code says, my issue is whether or not that is right. Why is that acceptable?

Mister D
02-21-2016, 10:31 AM
Great. When your religious leaders enter into politics, time to lose your tax exempt status. Works for me.

Except it doesn't. What I mean is...good luck with that. :smiley:

domer76
02-21-2016, 12:33 PM
I get that's what the tax code says, my issue is whether or not that is right. Why is that acceptable?

Here's the applicable reference for churches to remain tax exempt. Don't want to be a 501(c)(3)? Fine. Then don't apply. If you wish to be one, play by the rules or get the fuck out. Pretty simple.

Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations,qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC Section 501(c)(3) and aregenerally eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions. To qualify for tax-exemptstatus, the organization must meet the following requirements (covered in greaterdetail throughout this publication):
n the organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious,educational, scientific or other charitable purposes;
n net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder;
n no substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation;
n the organization may not intervene in political campaigns; and
n the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violatefundamental public policy.

domer76
02-21-2016, 12:33 PM
Except it doesn't. What I mean is...good luck with that. :smiley:

Except it does

Mister D
02-21-2016, 01:33 PM
Except it does

Like I said, good luck with that.

Peter1469
02-21-2016, 01:59 PM
Stick with things you're good at. Amateur pyschology? You have zero talent.

I try. :smiley:

Mister D
02-21-2016, 02:01 PM
I try. :smiley:

Oh, please. It doesn't take a Carl Jung to have some insight into domer's issues. His emotional scars run so deep you can almost see them.

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 02:42 PM
Here's the applicable reference for churches to remain tax exempt. Don't want to be a 501(c)(3)? Fine. Then don't apply. If you wish to be one, play by the rules or get the fuck out. Pretty simple.

Churches and religious organizations, like many other charitable organizations,qualify for exemption from federal income tax under IRC Section 501(c)(3) and aregenerally eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions. To qualify for tax-exemptstatus, the organization must meet the following requirements (covered in greaterdetail throughout this publication):
n the organization must be organized and operated exclusively for religious,educational, scientific or other charitable purposes;
n net earnings may not inure to the benefit of any private individual or shareholder;
n no substantial part of its activity may be attempting to influence legislation;
n the organization may not intervene in political campaigns; and
n the organization’s purposes and activities may not be illegal or violatefundamental public policy.

Again...I understand that this is what the tax code says. What I asked you is to make a value judgment on WHY it is acceptable.

domer76
02-21-2016, 03:04 PM
Oh, please. It doesn't take a Carl Jung to have some insight into domer's issues. His emotional scars run so deep you can almost see them.

Back to sticking with things you know something about. Like your superstitious goatherder mythology. That's about it for you. Everything else you post is self-aggrandizing bullshit.

domer76
02-21-2016, 03:06 PM
Again...I understand that this is what the tax code says. What I asked you is to make a value judgment on WHY it is acceptable.

It's a special exemption for churches. I don't need to make a value judgement about it. Just pointing out it's the law and everyone is aware of it. Want to take advantage of those tax breaks? Good. Play by the fucking rules.

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 04:35 PM
It's a special exemption for churches. I don't need to make a value judgement about it. Just pointing out it's the law and everyone is aware of it. Want to take advantage of those tax breaks? Good. Play by the fucking rules.

So, that's it? It's the law, so whether it's a just law or not is irrelevant?

Mister D
02-21-2016, 05:13 PM
Again...I understand that this is what the tax code says. What I asked you is to make a value judgment on WHY it is acceptable.

They act as if the Pope or any other religious figure giving his opinion on a political matter is a violation of the tax code.

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 05:25 PM
They act as if the Pope or any other religious figure giving his opinion on a political matter is a violation of the tax code.

Punishing them for it is a violation of the first amendment.

hanger4
02-21-2016, 05:40 PM
It's a special exemption for churches. I don't need to make a value judgement about it. Just pointing out it's the law and everyone is aware of it. Want to take advantage of those tax breaks? Good. Play by the fucking rules.

Out of curiosity what 'churchs' are breaking the rules ??

Captain Obvious
02-21-2016, 07:24 PM
Green Arrow - why shouldn't the Pope stay out of politics?

That's like saying the President should stay out of domestic policy.

If politics foments corruption, and it does, that's the Pope's wheelhouse.

Are you kidding me?

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 07:28 PM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) - why shouldn't the Pope stay out of politics?

That's like saying the President should stay out of domestic policy.

If politics foments corruption, and it does, that's the Pope's wheelhouse.

Are you kidding me?

The Pope shouldn't stay out of politics because he has a right to get involved, just like everyone else, particularly considering his flock is impacted by political decisions.

Mister D
02-21-2016, 07:38 PM
Punishing them for it is a violation of the first amendment.

This whole complaint is an absurdity. Now if priests were directing their flocks to vote a certain way or something like that then the complaint would be legit but anyone who attends Catholic Mass in this country could tell you that that's as rare as a 4 leaf clover.

Green Arrow
02-21-2016, 08:03 PM
This whole complaint is an absurdity. Now if priests were directing their flocks to vote a certain way or something like that then the complaint would be legit but anyone who attends Catholic Mass in this country could tell you that that's as rare as a 4 leaf clover.

Yeah, I've attended mass pretty religiously when my wife is up here and other than a joke here and there the priests have never talked politics even in passing.

Dr. Who
02-22-2016, 01:11 AM
And, quite frankly, that the Pope or any other religious figure should stay out politics is a liberal conceit. It's merely asserted. I don't accept the premise that religion has no place in politics. Don't like the Pope speaking his mind? Too bad.
The Pope was speaking to religious belief, not politics. In that respect, he has every right as the spiritual leader of the Catholic faith to comment from a religious perspective, much as the Dalai Lama might make a similar statement as the spiritual leader of the Buddhists.

Pope Francis is not a politician, he is a Jesuit priest and the Jesuits do not stand on ceremony. They are one of the active orders of Catholicism - they live in poverty among the poorest people and carry out the work of Christ. They often even fall afoul of the Catholic hierarchy. The Jesuits’ Latin motto is AD MAIOREM DEI GLORIAM, or AMDG, Latin for “for the greater glory of God,” meaning everything is offered up to God. Even the name Jesuit was once a pejorative term because they would not kowtow to the European monarchies. They are not politicians or diplomats.

domer76
02-22-2016, 05:26 PM
So, that's it? It's the law, so whether it's a just law or not is irrelevant?

What the fuck do you not understand about the tax law that I posted? Is it not perfectly clear?

MisterVeritis
02-22-2016, 05:31 PM
The Pope was speaking to religious belief, not politics. In that respect, he has every right as the spiritual leader of the Catholic faith to comment from a religious perspective, much as the Dalai Lama might make a similar statement as the spiritual leader of the Buddhists.

Pope Francis is not a politician, he is a Jesuit priest and the Jesuits do not stand on ceremony. They are one of the active orders of Catholicism - they live in poverty among the poorest people and carry out the work of Christ. They often even fall afoul of the Catholic hierarchy. The Jesuits’ Latin motto is AD MAIOREM DEI GLORIAM, or AMDG, Latin for “for the greater glory of God,” meaning everything is offered up to God. Even the name Jesuit was once a pejorative term because they would not kowtow to the European monarchies. They are not politicians or diplomats.
The Idiot Marxist Pope capitulated. He is a politician. And he lost.

Now he needs to tear down his wall. After all, it is unchristian.

domer76
02-22-2016, 05:36 PM
Out of curiosity what 'churchs' are breaking the rules ??

Is that a joke?

Green Arrow
02-22-2016, 06:26 PM
What the fuck do you not understand about the tax law that I posted? Is it not perfectly clear?

Yes, domer, I understand completely what the law says and I understand that it exists.

What I am asking is why the fact that it exists is enough to accept it. Why are you incapable of making a moral judgment as to whether or not the law is just or not?

It's a simple question and I don't understand why you are struggling so hard to understand it.

Mister D
02-22-2016, 06:52 PM
Yes, domer, I understand completely what the law says and I understand that it exists.

What I am asking is why the fact that it exists is enough to accept it. Why are you incapable of making a moral judgment as to whether or not the law is just or not?

It's a simple question and I don't understand why you are struggling so hard to understand it.

The tax law that he cited simply doesn't touch on anything the Pope has said or done. It doesn't mean one cannot comment on political matters. I swear...Americans are getting domer every day.

Green Arrow
02-22-2016, 06:55 PM
The tax law that he cited simply doesn't touch on anything the Pope has said or done. It doesn't mean one cannot comment on political matters. I swear...Americans are getting domer every day.

Just the idea that it applies to the Pope is absurd. The Pope is not an American, he isn't the leader of any one American church, so he could be a raving politician for all I give a shit and the law wouldn't apply.

I still find his inability to make a moral judgment on whether the law is just or not troubling.

Mister D
02-22-2016, 06:59 PM
Just the idea that it applies to the Pope is absurd. The Pope is not an American, he isn't the leader of any one American church, so he could be a raving politician for all I give a $#@! and the law wouldn't apply.

I still find his inability to make a moral judgment on whether the law is just or not troubling.

Here's the kicker: guess what churches are most closely associated with political campaigns and causes? Hint: think dark. I wonder if domer will be castigating those churches and demanding they have their tax exempt status removed?

Common Sense
02-22-2016, 07:08 PM
Here's the kicker: guess what churches are most closely associated with political campaigns and causes? Hint: think dark. I wonder if domer will be castigating those churches and demanding they have their tax exempt status removed?

They're a pretty small percentage. I'd say evangelicals are more influential.

Mister D
02-22-2016, 07:14 PM
They're a pretty small percentage. I'd say evangelicals are more influential.

Nonsense. Many of the churches in question are evangelical. Black churches have a long and celebrated history of brazen political activity. But our self-appointed watchdogs say nothign cuz you know that would be racist and shit.

domer76
02-22-2016, 07:43 PM
Yes, domer, I understand completely what the law says and I understand that it exists.

What I am asking is why the fact that it exists is enough to accept it. Why are you incapable of making a moral judgment as to whether or not the law is just or not?

It's a simple question and I don't understand why you are struggling so hard to understand it.

You're trying too hard. The law doesn't always have to be moral. I parked in a no parking spot and got a ticket. I knew it was marked that way and got fined for it. No moral component at all. You merely seek a moral foundation as an excuse.

The law is EXCEPTIONALLY clear. Don't want to play by the rules? Fine. Either change the rules or STFU when you get slapped by not obeying them.

Unfortunately, however, churches have skated on this law and continually interject themselves into politics. How moral of them to scoff at the laws of a nation, don't you think?

hanger4
02-22-2016, 07:56 PM
Is that a joke?

Well yea, if you don't know then I guess it would be a joke.

I laughed. :grin: