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zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:14 PM
There are many that do not believe that the building of a wall on the southern border is possible, and yet we in the history of the USA have Build the Panama, and Erie Canals, the Hoover Dam, and went to the moon.

So we all should be able to agree that it is at least possible and with all of the people that are unemployed and on social assistance, there is the work force to do it. difficult, sure it is. but it can be done.

We are also told that it would be impossible to get the Mexican government to pay for this because of NAFTA. But I submit that Trade agreements can and from time to time should be changed. For example what happened to the Trade agreement that was in place before NAFTA?

So we can all admit that at least it is possible for Trade agreements and to be changed and that a Tarriff on a country that we have a 50 billion + annual trade deficit would eventually pay for the price of construction. And would likely cause the movement of some production back to the USA, putting further strain on the Mexican economy.

That leaves us with sending the 11 to 20 million people back to Mexico, and I would suggest to you that the way to do this is to get really tuff on employers, with such heavy fines that even imprisonment for those that knowingly hire illegals that it would be foolish to try. Then if we Cut Federal funding to Sanctuary Cities and School Districts, Government Agencies, Hospitals and Community actions centers that try to hide and harbor these illegals, it would cut off all forms of income that they would have. Leaving them little choice but to return to their country of origin.

So we can debate that this is cruel, or mean, but I don't think that we should debate that it is impossible.

I would like to here from those that think that it is, but remember this is a TPF thread so stick to civil conversation.

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 12:16 PM
I have questions about the rationality of building a physical wall for the entire boarder. But I have no doubt that we could build it and force Mexico to pay for it. That is easy.

But walls are easy to circumvent.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:20 PM
I have questions about the rationality of building a physical wall for the entire boarder. But I have no doubt that we could build it and force Mexico to pay for it. That is easy.

But walls are easy to circumvent.

I would agree with this, I think in High Risk Areas you could add high voltage, and even power this with Solar, or Wind on much of the border. There are areas that it is too risky to attempt to cross and few would try and even less succeed those areas could have much lower security.

In My opinion the harder part is the resolve to cut off funding to Cites, and in some cases states that want to harbor illegals and provide them with social assistance.

Chris
02-27-2016, 12:20 PM
Have to disagree.

"Build the Panama, and Erie Canals, the Hoover Dam, and went to the moon" all had benefits attached to them. A wall between the US and Mexico has none. So while possible to do, it benefits no one.

Regulating trade with the intent of making Mexico pay will, like any other protectionist scheme, only make American consumers pay the higher costs of tariffs.


No argument on illegal immigrants, they're here illegally.

Matty
02-27-2016, 12:22 PM
I have questions about the rationality of building a physical wall for the entire boarder. But I have no doubt that we could build it and force Mexico to pay for it. That is easy.

But walls are easy to circumvent.



Not if you are pregnant. We should build it for that reason alone.

Matty
02-27-2016, 12:23 PM
Thanks Zelmo for starting this thread. Now we can talk truth.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:27 PM
Have to disagree.

"Build the Panama, and Erie Canals, the Hoover Dam, and went to the moon" all had benefits attached to them. A wall between the US and Mexico has none. So while possible to do, it benefits no one.

Regulating trade with the intent of making Mexico pay will, like any other protectionist scheme, only make American consumers pay the higher costs of tariffs.


No argument on illegal immigrants, they're here illegally.

I can see the point, but to say that 11 to 20 million people that are working here illegally does not have a cost to the population is false too I believe

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317

So it is not free to leave the status quo. And with million more entering each year the cost only goes up.

So sure for the short term, there will be come increase in cost. but as those items sales start to fall, many of them will be moved back to the USA, and that will help our unemployment, welfare, low worker participation rates and even income inequality. Company that will the 11 million jobs that will be vacated by illegals, and you might even have enough of an increase in income to off set the higher prices.

Chris
02-27-2016, 12:29 PM
I can see the point, but to say that 11 to 20 million people that are working here illegally does not have a cost to the population is false too I believe

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317

So it is not free to leave the status quo. And with million more entering each year the cost only goes up.

So sure for the short term, there will be come increase in cost. but as those items sales start to fall, many of them will be moved back to the USA, and that will help our unemployment, welfare, low worker participation rates and even income inequality. Company that will the 11 million jobs that will be vacated by illegals, and you might even have enough of an increase in income to off set the higher prices.


If they're here illegally they don't belong here, so on that point I agree. Enforce the law.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:31 PM
If they're here illegally they don't belong here, so on that point I agree. Enforce the law.

Then would you not also agree that we need to find a way to stop more of them form coming here illegally?

Matty
02-27-2016, 12:35 PM
Then would you not also agree that we need to find a way to stop more of them form coming here illegally?



Yes! Force Mexico to cooperate and stop the flow from central and South America.

del
02-27-2016, 12:36 PM
i think any rational being would agree that building a wall is a waste of time and money.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 12:36 PM
I have questions about the rationality of building a physical wall for the entire boarder. But I have no doubt that we could build it and force Mexico to pay for it. That is easy.

But walls are easy to circumvent.
Walls work every time they are tried. The Southern wall will be effective in reducing the enormous flows of Obama's Children's illegal alien Army. Add to it finding, detaining and deporting the 11-30 million illegal aliens who are here and the wall becomes even more effective. Find the 40% of aliens who come here on visas. Deport them, at their expense and never, ever let them come back.

Congress can fix the anchor baby interpretation with a simple law. Congress can dramatically curtail legal immigration and change the laws so the immigrants who are allowed in benefit the US.

The wall is the starting point.

Chris
02-27-2016, 12:38 PM
Then would you not also agree that we need to find a way to stop more of them form coming here illegally?

OK, but building a wall won't do that, won't benefit anyone.

I guess I would go the free trade route. Open up trade completely. Mexico would benefit, their economy would grow, making staying and working there more attractive. In turn, they would then have more wealth to purchase US goods and services, thus benefiting us.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:38 PM
Yes! Force Mexico to cooperate and stop the flow from central and South America.

Actually this is not a bad Idea, the southern border of Mexico is much shorter, and I certainly could see providing Mexico with the same Technologies so they could prevent the invasion of their country as well. It would also give them a place to employ that 11 to 20 million illegals working in the USA>

I would even consider funding some of that, as it would clearly have long term savings for the USA

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 12:39 PM
Thanks Zelmo for starting this thread. Now we can talk truth.
What? You don't like the occasional flake who will ban you because you are not his or her parrot?

cough, cough, trueblue, cough, cough.

Chris
02-27-2016, 12:41 PM
i think any rational being would agree that building a wall is a waste of time and money.

http://i.snag.gy/SyXKL.jpg

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:41 PM
OK, but building a wall won't do that, won't benefit anyone.

I guess I would go the free trade route. Open up trade completely. Mexico would benefit, their economy would grow, making staying and working there more attractive. In turn, they would then have more wealth to purchase US goods and services, thus benefiting us.

So I am a little confused here. What you are suggesting is the same as we have now, and it is clearly not working.

I know you well enough to know that is not what you are saying. Clearly you will never stop 100% it is impossible, but I think building the right Smart wall if you will could cut down on 95% of the illegals coming across.

So what would you change from what we are doing and how do you think it would help?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:43 PM
i think any rational being would agree that building a wall is a waste of time and money.

Ok, I can see your point, but Illegals are costing the USA 100 billion a year now, and taking 11 to 20 million jobs, so that can't be the solution either.

What would you change to help prevent these costs and help put Americans back to work?

Chris
02-27-2016, 12:44 PM
So I am a little confused here. What you are suggesting is the same as we have now, and it is clearly not working.

I know you well enough to know that is not what you are saying. Clearly you will never stop 100% it is impossible, but I think building the right Smart wall if you will could cut down on 95% of the illegals coming across.

So what would you change from what we are doing and how do you think it would help?

No, what we have now is managed trade, government managed trade. I propose free trade.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:45 PM
What? You don't like the occasional flake who will ban you because you are not his or her parrot?

cough, cough, trueblue, cough, cough.

OK one warning, Keep this crap out of this thread. Both of you. Let them do what they want but don't dirty up my thread because of their crap!

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 12:46 PM
OK one warning, Keep this crap out of this thread. Both of you. Let them do what they want but don't dirty up my thread because of their crap!
LOL. cough, cough..

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 12:47 PM
No, what we have now is managed trade, government managed trade. I propose free trade.

OK so you are saying that Mexico would have to be 100% open to the USA. I can see that, but do you think that would have an effect on the illegals and how. Would that not encourage more companies to reside south of the border, especially with the rising taxations and regulations?

Matty
02-27-2016, 12:50 PM
What? You don't like the occasional flake who will ban you because you are not his or her parrot?

cough, cough, trueblue, cough, cough.


She has a right to do so. But, now she can talk to her parrots.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 12:52 PM
She has a right to do so. But, now she can talk to her parrots.
LOL. cough, cough.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 12:52 PM
i think any rational being would agree that building a wall is a waste of time and money.

I don't agree

We cannot allow anyone who wants to come here to simply walk across the border

That's insane

Chris
02-27-2016, 12:53 PM
OK so you are saying that Mexico would have to be 100% open to the USA. I can see that, but do you think that would have an effect on the illegals and how. Would that not encourage more companies to reside south of the border, especially with the rising taxations and regulations?

Yes, bilateral free trade.

Whatever increases the wealth of Mexico ought to attract workers there and allow them to purchase more US goods, which would mean more jobs for Americans.

Basically get governments out of the economy, let them deal with legal matters concerning immigration and deportation till trade resolves it.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 12:56 PM
Yes, bilateral free trade.

Whatever increases the wealth of Mexico ought to attract workers there and allow them to purchase more US goods, which would mean more jobs for Americans.

Basically get governments out of the economy, let them deal with legal matters concerning immigration and deportation till trade resolves it.
End every welfare program and end taxpayer-funded education and open borders would be fine with me.

Matty
02-27-2016, 12:56 PM
None of this addresses the problem of corruption in the Mexican government, the drug cartels and the Mexicans letting central and South America free access through their southern borders to gain access to the US. Before you play nice with Mexico you are going to have to play rough.

Matty
02-27-2016, 12:57 PM
As the democrats so love to say, " what we are doing isn't working" time to try something else. Build that wall.

Chris
02-27-2016, 01:27 PM
End every welfare program and end taxpayer-funded education and open borders would be fine with me.

End the government and I'm ok. :D

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 01:30 PM
End the government and I'm ok. :D
Limit it to its Constitutionally-approved functions. It would remove nearly all of today's irritants.

decedent
02-27-2016, 01:32 PM
Not if you are pregnant. We should build it for that reason alone.

There are these new things called boats. They're like reverse bathtubs.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 01:33 PM
There are these new things called boats. They're like reverse bathtubs.
Pull the plugs.

Chris
02-27-2016, 01:33 PM
Limit it to its Constitutionally-approved functions. It would remove nearly all of today's irritants.

A start.

Sorry, getting off topic.

The Hoover Dam, for example, generates electrical power, the Panama Canal eases trade. What can a wall itself do?

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 01:35 PM
A start.

Sorry, getting off topic.

The Hoover Dam, for example, generates electrical power, the Panama Canal eases trade. What can a wall itself do?

Open more jobs for American citizens

Chris
02-27-2016, 01:38 PM
Open more jobs for American citizens

How directly does a wall do that? You going to build a mall under it?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 01:40 PM
A start.

Sorry, getting off topic.

The Hoover Dam, for example, generates electrical power, the Panama Canal eases trade. What can a wall itself do?
A wall can stop the steady migration of illegal aliens. I thought that was clear.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:02 PM
There are many that do not believe that the building of a wall on the southern border is possible, and yet we in the history of the USA have Build the Panama, and Erie Canals, the Hoover Dam, and went to the moon.

So we all should be able to agree that it is at least possible and with all of the people that are unemployed and on social assistance, there is the work force to do it. difficult, sure it is. but it can be done.

We are also told that it would be impossible to get the Mexican government to pay for this because of NAFTA. But I submit that Trade agreements can and from time to time should be changed. For example what happened to the Trade agreement that was in place before NAFTA?

So we can all admit that at least it is possible for Trade agreements and to be changed and that a Tarriff on a country that we have a 50 billion + annual trade deficit would eventually pay for the price of construction. And would likely cause the movement of some production back to the USA, putting further strain on the Mexican economy.

That leaves us with sending the 11 to 20 million people back to Mexico, and I would suggest to you that the way to do this is to get really tuff on employers, with such heavy fines that even imprisonment for those that knowingly hire illegals that it would be foolish to try. Then if we Cut Federal funding to Sanctuary Cities and School Districts, Government Agencies, Hospitals and Community actions centers that try to hide and harbor these illegals, it would cut off all forms of income that they would have. Leaving them little choice but to return to their country of origin.

So we can debate that this is cruel, or mean, but I don't think that we should debate that it is impossible.

I would like to here from those that think that it is, but remember this is a TPF thread so stick to civil conversation.

This is precisely why I cannot support Trump, because he and his supporters are so aggressively authoritarian and totalitarian when it comes to this particular issue.

Not only is the idea of a massive wall antithetical to liberty, but it's totally impractical and will not solve the underlying issue. There will always be ways around a wall now matter how big and shiny it is. People will smuggle, tunnel, and travel by sea in order to get around it.

But the worst thing about their plan is to "get tough on employers". This horrible policy will only empower the government to massively invade the privacy of American businesses. I thought Republicans were supposed to the the party of economic liberty, yet they want the federal government to insinuate itself into the hiring practices of every business in the country? This is their idea of liberty!?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:07 PM
No argument on illegal immigrants, they're here illegally.

Okay? I'm pretty sure everyone who posts on this forum does something illegal every day. It's impossible not to break the law in a country where there are millions of laws that nobody understands or respects.

WSJ - (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842)You Commit Three Felonies a Day (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842)

So the mere fact of something being illegal cannot be a rational or practical grounds for its blanket enforcement. If every law now existing on the books were enforced comprehensively and aggressively, this country would grind to a halt under the onerous operations of authoritarianism and totalitarianism.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:12 PM
I can see the point, but to say that 11 to 20 million people that are working here illegally does not have a cost to the population is false too I believe

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317

So it is not free to leave the status quo. And with million more entering each year the cost only goes up.

So sure for the short term, there will be come increase in cost. but as those items sales start to fall, many of them will be moved back to the USA, and that will help our unemployment, welfare, low worker participation rates and even income inequality. Company that will the 11 million jobs that will be vacated by illegals, and you might even have enough of an increase in income to off set the higher prices.

Why is it necessary to spend billions of dollars locating and deporting millions of people when you can just deny them benefits?

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:12 PM
This is precisely why I cannot support Trump, because he and his supporters are so aggressively authoritarian and totalitarian when it comes to this particular issue.

Not only is the idea of a massive wall antithetical to liberty, but it's totally impractical and will not solve the underlying issue. There will always be ways around a wall now matter how big and shiny it is. People will smuggle, tunnel, and travel by sea in order to get around it.

But the worst thing about their plan is to "get tough on employers". This horrible policy will only empower the government to massively invade the privacy of American businesses. I thought Republicans were supposed to the the party of economic liberty, yet they want the federal government to insinuate itself into the hiring practices of every business in the country? This is their idea of liberty!?


You are in error. The put employers in jail plan is a democrat plan, not a Republican plan.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:13 PM
If they're here illegally they don't belong here, so on that point I agree. Enforce the law.

That's not a very libertarian approach to the issue, is it? Where does the Constitution authorize the federal government to regulate immigration anyway?

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 02:13 PM
How directly does a wall do that? You going to build a mall under it?

A wall reduces the number of illegal aliens looking for jobs

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:14 PM
Then would you not also agree that we need to find a way to stop more of them form coming here illegally?

I wouldn't. The costs far outweigh the benefits, especially since most of them are coming here to WORK, and that is good for our economy.

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:18 PM
I would agree with this, I think in High Risk Areas you could add high voltage, and even power this with Solar, or Wind on much of the border. There are areas that it is too risky to attempt to cross and few would try and even less succeed those areas could have much lower security.

In My opinion the harder part is the resolve to cut off funding to Cites, and in some cases states that want to harbor illegals and provide them with social assistance.

Drones. High tech blimps at 10,000 feet monitor every millimeter of space. Did I mention armed drones?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:18 PM
Ok, I can see your point, but Illegals are costing the USA 100 billion a year now, and taking 11 to 20 million jobs, so that can't be the solution either.

What would you change to help prevent these costs and help put Americans back to work?

Taking jobs? Jobs are not finite resource that we can run out of, they are tasks that produce economic value for others. You're basically saying that getting rid of millions of workers would somehow be good for our economy. But that would lower our productive capacity and drive up prices substantially. Why do Republicans become so anti-market when it comes to immigrants? Do they think the market stops working when a laborer comes from a different country?

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:19 PM
Not if you are pregnant. We should build it for that reason alone.

There is no legal requirement to keep the silly concept of the anchor baby. End it.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:19 PM
OK so you are saying that Mexico would have to be 100% open to the USA. I can see that, but do you think that would have an effect on the illegals and how. Would that not encourage more companies to reside south of the border, especially with the rising taxations and regulations?

So you've identified the problem, burdensome taxes and regulations. Shouldn't the solution be to reduce taxes and regulations then?

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:20 PM
OK, but building a wall won't do that, won't benefit anyone.

I guess I would go the free trade route. Open up trade completely. Mexico would benefit, their economy would grow, making staying and working there more attractive. In turn, they would then have more wealth to purchase US goods and services, thus benefiting us.

How does that keep Mexicans from illegally entering the US?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:20 PM
I don't agree

We cannot allow anyone who wants to come here to simply walk across the border

That's insane

That's how it was in virtually every country in the world including America during the 1700 and 1800's. I guess they were all insane?

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:21 PM
Mexico is not going to spend billions of dollars building our border wall. It's just not going to happen. If Trump is elected president though i'd be curious to hear his excuses in four years as to why none of the things he told America to believe ("believe me") actually came true. What will be his excuse when there is no big beautiful border wall? What will his excuse be when the situation with China and other countries has not changed, if not made worse? What will be his excuse if the economy is worse despite "management" being the reason why he was going to make us "win" again? What will his excuse be when the 11 million illegals he said he would deport are still here? I can answer it already....His excuses will be the media, all of the losers, the idiots, the bimbos that didn't vote for him and that dont regard him as the best president in history, the mexicans, the russians, the chinese, the europeans, the lizard people from outer space, and Jeb Bush of course. It's called "we have a country" folks. Duh.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 02:22 PM
I wouldn't. The costs far outweigh the benefits, especially since most of them are coming here to WORK, and that is good for our economy.

Drugs are being smuggled, women and children are being forced into prostitution, and Americans are losing the chance to work

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:23 PM
You are in error. The put employers in jail plan is a democrat plan, not a Republican plan.

Zelmo said it in his OP. And the E-verify program is supported by Republicans. They want the federal government to stick its big, fat nose into the private affairs of American businesses. This is fundamentally anti-American and antithetical to liberty. It's not the responsibility of private citizens to enforce federal immigration policies or to report their hiring practices to federal agencies.

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:27 PM
Chloe, the wall is cheaper for them to build that the US shutting down trade with Mexico would be.

If we want them to build the wall they will build it or their economy would be crushed.


Mexico is not going to spend billions of dollars building our border wall. It's just not going to happen. If Trump is elected president though i'd be curious to hear his excuses in four years as to why none of the things he told America to believe ("believe me") actually came true. What will be his excuse when there is no big beautiful border wall? What will his excuse be when the situation with China and other countries has not changed, if not made worse? What will be his excuse if the economy is worse despite "management" being the reason why he was going to make us "win" again? What will his excuse be when the 11 million illegals he said he would deport are still here? I can answer it already....His excuses will be the media, all of the losers, the idiots, the bimbos that didn't vote for him and that dont regard him as the best president in history, the mexicans, the russians, the chinese, the europeans, the lizard people from outer space, and Jeb Bush of course. It's called "we have a country" folks. Duh.

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:27 PM
Chloe, the wall is cheaper for them to build that the US shutting down trade with Mexico would be.

If we want them to build the wall they will build it or their economy would be crushed.

It's ok Peter. We won't shut down trade with them and they will also not build our wall.

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:29 PM
It's ok Peter. We won't shut down trade with them and they will also not build our wall.

I wouldn't build it either.

I am only saying that if the US willed it, Mexico would build it. Pronto too. :smiley:

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:29 PM
Drugs are being smuggled, women and children are being forced into prostitution, and Americans are losing the chance to work

The drug and prostitution problems are a direct result of prohibition and criminalization policies.

As for Americans losing their chance to work, that assertion rests on the assumption that the economy is a fixed pie with a finite amount of jobs. That is a belief more suited to a Marxist than a conservative. In reality, the market economy is not a zero-sum game where one person's gain is another person's lose. A job produces value for society, and more labor produces more value by lowering prices and pushing out the production possibilities frontier:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Production_Possibilities_Frontier_Curve.svg/220px-Production_Possibilities_Frontier_Curve.svg.png

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:30 PM
I wouldn't build it either.

I am only saying that if the US willed it, Mexico would build it. Pronto too. :smiley:

Except the long term ramifications for us would be 10x worse by destroying the economy of an already poor nation that we claim is invading our country for jobs. Building the border wall by financially destroying Mexico will not end well.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 02:31 PM
Mexico is not going to spend billions of dollars building our border wall. It's just not going to happen. If Trump is elected president though i'd be curious to hear his excuses in four years as to why none of the things he told America to believe ("believe me") actually came true. What will be his excuse when there is no big beautiful border wall? What will his excuse be when the situation with China and other countries has not changed, if not made worse? What will be his excuse if the economy is worse despite "management" being the reason why he was going to make us "win" again? What will his excuse be when the 11 million illegals he said he would deport are still here? I can answer it already....His excuses will be the media, all of the losers, the idiots, the bimbos that didn't vote for him and that dont regard him as the best president in history, the mexicans, the russians, the chinese, the europeans, the lizard people from outer space, and Jeb Bush of course. It's called "we have a country" folks. Duh.

There is only one way for liberal 20-something's to find out what trump will IF he fails to build the wall

We will elect him and see

But so far liberals and establishment Repubs have underestimated trump at every step ow the way

So the chances are good that he will build the wall

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:32 PM
Except the long term ramifications for us would be 10x worse by destroying the economy of an already poor nation that we claim is invading our country for jobs. Building the border wall by financially destroying Mexico will not end well.


How is our wall destroying their economy? What exactly is their economy?

Hal Jordan
02-27-2016, 02:32 PM
I have to ask if supporters of the wall idea if they are unaware that a significant number of illegal immigrants come to America through tunnels as it is. What will happen if a wall is built? That number will only increase, and there will be no significant effect on the number of illegal immigrants coming through.


Sent using the power of the ring

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:32 PM
Except the long term ramifications for us would be 10x worse by destroying the economy of an already poor nation that we claim is invading our country for jobs. Building the border wall by financially destroying Mexico will not end well.

The cost of the wall wouldn't destroy Mexico's economy.

Anyway my only point is that Mexico would build it if we seriously wanted them to.

We all know that the US doesn't seriously want the wall. So in that light, Mexico won't be building the wall.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:33 PM
A wall can stop the steady migration of illegal aliens. I thought that was clear.

Sorry if I don't believe that.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:33 PM
Chloe, the wall is cheaper for them to build that the US shutting down trade with Mexico would be.

If we want them to build the wall they will build it or their economy would be crushed.

Shutting down trade with Mexico would be devastating for our economy as well. Total imports and exports are around $531 billion a year (https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c2010.html).

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 02:33 PM
I have to ask if supporters of the wall idea if they are unaware that a significant number of illegal immigrants come to America through tunnels as it is. What will happen if a wall is built? That number will only increase, and there will be no significant effect on the number of illegal immigrants coming through.


Sent using the power of the ring

Insect sized drones.

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:34 PM
There is only one way for liberal 20-something's to find out what trump will IF he fails to build the wall

We will elect him and see

But so far liberals and establishment Repubs have underestimated trump at every step ow the way

So the chances are good that he will build the wall

a border wall is the last thing I worry about with Donald Trump as president, but if he wants to build the border wall then i'd bet my own savings that America pays for it. Trump could put some of his 10 billion towards it though if he wants it bad enough. Then he could actually put his name on it too.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:34 PM
Okay? I'm pretty sure everyone who posts on this forum does something illegal every day. It's impossible not to break the law in a country where there are millions of laws that nobody understands or respects.

WSJ - (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842)You Commit Three Felonies a Day (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842)

So the mere fact of something being illegal cannot be a rational or practical grounds for its blanket enforcement. If every law now existing on the books were enforced comprehensively and aggressively, this country would grind to a halt under the onerous operations of authoritarianism and totalitarianism.

If you're going to have a government, it should follow its rules.

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:35 PM
How is our wall destroying their economy? What exactly is their economy?

If we conduct a trade war with mexico so that they will be basically extorted into building a wall that only we want then it would destroy their economy.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:35 PM
There is only one way for liberal 20-something's to find out what trump will IF he fails to build the wall

We will elect him and see

But so far liberals and establishment Repubs have underestimated trump at every step ow the way

So the chances are good that he will build the wall

He will still have to contend with the Congress and the American people and I can promise you they will not stand idly by while Trump tries to destroy the US economy.

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:35 PM
The cost of the wall wouldn't destroy Mexico's economy.

Anyway my only point is that Mexico would build it if we seriously wanted them to.

We all know that the US doesn't seriously want the wall. So in that light, Mexico won't be building the wall.

yes I agree that the cost of the wall would be less than the impact of a trade war but it's all moot anyway since there will be no trade war and they will not be paying for our wall.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:36 PM
If you're going to have a government, it should follow its rules.

No, it should protect the rights of individuals, nothing more.

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:36 PM
If we conduct a trade war with mexico so that they will be basically extorted into building a wall that only we want then it would destroy their economy.



I asked about about the wall. Not a trade war. Two different subjects.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:38 PM
That's not a very libertarian approach to the issue, is it? Where does the Constitution authorize the federal government to regulate immigration anyway?

My actual approach would be a private property approach where all property is privately own by individuals or groups and they decide who comes on or crosses their land. Hoppe has arguments for this. It's libertarian.

That's right, it's a state's issue. Federal government only has power of naturalization.

Remember the solution I proposed above is complete free trade. Protectionism is no solution.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:38 PM
A wall reduces the number of illegal aliens looking for jobs

It doesn't increase jobs as you claimed.

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:39 PM
If we conduct a trade war with mexico so that they will be basically extorted into building a wall that only we want then it would destroy their economy.


Mexico is actively destroying our economy by opening their southern borders to illegals from south and Central America. Is that okay with you or is it Mexico you worry most about?

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:41 PM
How does that keep Mexicans from illegally entering the US?

It doesn't forcefully keep them in or out. But increasing prosperity in Mexico would create incentive to stay there rather than come here seeking a share of ours. If there even I realistically a theirs and ours. People speak in terms of US/Mexico trade but it's individuals trading.

Hal Jordan
02-27-2016, 02:41 PM
Insect sized drones.

How does that affect tunnels?


Sent using the power of the ring

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:42 PM
My actual approach would be a private property approach where all property is privately own by individuals or groups and they decide who comes on or crosses their land. Hoppe has arguments for this. It's libertarian.

That's right, it's a state's issue. Federal government only has power of naturalization.

Remember the solution I proposed above is complete free trade. Protectionism is no solution.

I think it would more appropriate to concentrate on localism than on privatization since private land ownership has a tenuous basis in classical liberalism.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:42 PM
Mexico is not going to spend billions of dollars building our border wall. It's just not going to happen. If Trump is elected president though i'd be curious to hear his excuses in four years as to why none of the things he told America to believe ("believe me") actually came true. What will be his excuse when there is no big beautiful border wall? What will his excuse be when the situation with China and other countries has not changed, if not made worse? What will be his excuse if the economy is worse despite "management" being the reason why he was going to make us "win" again? What will his excuse be when the 11 million illegals he said he would deport are still here? I can answer it already....His excuses will be the media, all of the losers, the idiots, the bimbos that didn't vote for him and that dont regard him as the best president in history, the mexicans, the russians, the chinese, the europeans, the lizard people from outer space, and Jeb Bush of course. It's called "we have a country" folks. Duh.

Trump promises we'll all be winning, all be happy. It's like hope, you just got to believe, and maybe click your heels.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:43 PM
Mexico is actively destroying our economy by opening their southern borders to illegals from south and Central America. Is that okay with you or is it Mexico you worry most about?

People coming to America to work is destroying our economy? What a strange theory.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:43 PM
No, it should protect the rights of individuals, nothing more.

Which would include protecting my property.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:45 PM
Does it destroy the economy of Texas when people move there from California in order to find jobs? Does it destroy the economy of Indiana when people move there from Illinois in order to find jobs? Of course not. If anything, it greatly benefits their economies by increasing their productive capacity and lowering prices. There is no accepted theory of economics where more work means less wealth for society. It's precisely the opposite.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:45 PM
Which would include protecting my property.

So the entire country of America is your property? You own it?

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:46 PM
People coming to America to work is destroying our economy? What a strange theory.


Ya think? Then why does it cost the taxpayers so much?

Chloe
02-27-2016, 02:46 PM
I asked about about the wall. Not a trade war. Two different subjects.

You asked how the wall is destroying their economy but there is no wall yet. My point that you responded to was about the damage that would be done to their economy by forcing a trade war to force them into building the wall.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:47 PM
Ya think? Then why does it cost the taxpayers so much?

I'm not aware of any accepted theory of economics that says work is bad for the economy.

Chris
02-27-2016, 02:47 PM
I think it would more appropriate to concentrate on localism than on privatization since private land ownership has a tenuous basis in classical liberalism.

I include groups in that, not just individuals. It would be difficult to divvy up the streets of a town so perhaps the town's people would own the streets, but why not neighborhoods, and then why not I own the street in front of my house and property. Naturally, you'd group together to manage and maintain the streets. But ownership would be distributed as locally as possible.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 02:47 PM
Drones. High tech blimps at 10,000 feet monitor every millimeter of space. Did I mention armed drones?

Armed drones?

That's a thought

But alligators in the rio grande are cheaper because they just work for food

And illegals supply the food

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:48 PM
Armed drones?

That's a thought

But alligators in the rio grande are cheaper because they just work for food

And illegals supply the food

Posts like this are why Trump supporters are so hard to take seriously.

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:49 PM
You asked how the wall is destroying their economy but there is no wall yet. My point that you responded to was about the damage that would be done to their economy by forcing a trade war to force them into building the wall.


They will not build a wall. Trump is mistaken. We should though. And a wall with no trade war will not affect their economy in the slightest. We can cut all benefits to illegals, cut foreign aid to Mexico and build that wall. It's a win win.

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:51 PM
I'm not aware of any accepted theory of economics that says work is bad for the economy.


Then answer my question. Why does illegal immigration cost the taxpayers so much? Please!

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:52 PM
I include groups in that, not just individuals. It would be difficult to divvy up the streets of a town so perhaps the town's people would own the streets, but why not neighborhoods, and then why not I own the street in front of my house and property. Naturally, you'd group together to manage and maintain the streets. But ownership would be distributed as locally as possible.

That's fine with me. There is nothing wrong with an actual community of individuals delineating their property lines. The problem arises when an abstract collective attempts to exercise "ownership" over some arbitrary area of land.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:53 PM
They will not build a wall. Trump is mistaken. We should though. And a wall with no trade war will not affect their economy in the slightest. We can cut all benefits to illegals, cut foreign aid to Mexico and build that wall. It's a win win.

Why can't we just cut benefits and foreign aid? Then American taxpayers wouldn't be on the line for illegal immigrants or foreigners. Why must a wall be part of the solution?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:54 PM
Then answer my question. Why does illegal immigration cost the taxpayers so much? Please!

Because they're getting taxpayer-funded benefits. So the solution is to cut off the benefits. Problem solved.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 02:59 PM
I'm totally in favor of denying illegal immigrants tax-funded benefits, and I'm totally in favor of cutting off their foreign aid. But I'm totally opposed to building some massive, expensive wall along our southern border, and I'm radically opposed to any plan that lets the federal government insinuate itself into the hiring practices of every business in the country. That is just crazy. America was founded on free enterprise and the idea of business owners being forced to report their hiring practices to a federal agency is so aggressively anti-American that it makes me want to puke.

Matty
02-27-2016, 02:59 PM
Because they're getting taxpayer-funded benefits. So the solution is to cut off the benefits. Problem solved.


We agree.






https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/08/border-fences-work



Yes, border fences work. And that is exactly why the political class is so stridently intent on opposing the construction of a full double-layered fence or any effective barrier at the border.
The bipartisan open borders cartel is all in favor of discussing sundry forms of “border security,” especially if it will afford them the political cover to pass amnesty. But the one tangible form of border security they will never support, and in fact, pull out all stops to prevent, is the completion of the border fence.
- See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/08/border-fences-work#sthash.BKNJeHtj.dpuf

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:06 PM
We agree.






https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/08/border-fences-work



Yes, border fences work. And that is exactly why the political class is so stridently intent on opposing the construction of a full double-layered fence or any effective barrier at the border.
The bipartisan open borders cartel is all in favor of discussing sundry forms of “border security,” especially if it will afford them the political cover to pass amnesty. But the one tangible form of border security they will never support, and in fact, pull out all stops to prevent, is the completion of the border fence.
- See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/08/border-fences-work#sthash.BKNJeHtj.dpuf

We don't agree. I am against building a border wall and I'm against deporting millions of people. Building a wall won't stop people from smuggling, tunneling, and traveling by sea into America and it will cost taxpayers billions of dollars in construction and maintenance. And mass deportation will be devastating to the American economy. It will decrease the amount of goods and services we have to consume and it will substantially drive up prices of the same, not to mention the highly illiberal nature of the federal government fanning out across America looking for millions of people to arrest and deport. I cannot imagine how problematic that process would be. How many innocent Americans would be caught up in this dragnet? How many doors would be mistakenly kicked down by federal agents looking for illegal immigrants? Do you honestly trust heavily armed federal agents to go through American cities and neighborhoods on search missions for illegal immigrants?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:08 PM
This is precisely why I cannot support Trump, because he and his supporters are so aggressively authoritarian and totalitarian when it comes to this particular issue.

Not only is the idea of a massive wall antithetical to liberty, but it's totally impractical and will not solve the underlying issue. There will always be ways around a wall now matter how big and shiny it is. People will smuggle, tunnel, and travel by sea in order to get around it.

But the worst thing about their plan is to "get tough on employers". This horrible policy will only empower the government to massively invade the privacy of American businesses. I thought Republicans were supposed to the the party of economic liberty, yet they want the federal government to insinuate itself into the hiring practices of every business in the country? This is their idea of liberty!?
Do you live in a house? Does it have walls? If so, why?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:09 PM
Why is it necessary to spend billions of dollars locating and deporting millions of people when you can just deny them benefits?
Has that happened? Is it likely to?

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 03:10 PM
The drug and prostitution problems are a direct result of prohibition and criminalization policies.

As for Americans losing their chance to work, that assertion rests on the assumption that the economy is a fixed pie with a finite amount of jobs. That is a belief more suited to a Marxist than a conservative. In reality, the market economy is not a zero-sum game where one person's gain is another person's lose. A job produces value for society, and more labor produces more value by lowering prices and pushing out the production possibilities frontier:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Production_Possibilities_Frontier_Curve.svg/220px-Production_Possibilities_Frontier_Curve.svg.png

You want to legalize meth, crack, opium and heroin?

Not to mention child prostitution.

The open border with Mexico is a conduit for all sorts of bad things

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:10 PM
I'm totally in favor of denying illegal immigrants tax-funded benefits, and I'm totally in favor of cutting off their foreign aid. But I'm totally opposed to building some massive, expensive wall along our southern border, and I'm radically opposed to any plan that lets the federal government insinuate itself into the hiring practices of every business in the country. That is just crazy. America was founded on free enterprise and the idea of business owners being forced to report their hiring practices to a federal agency is so aggressively anti-American that it makes me want to puke.
Will you deny them public education? That is taxpayer funded. Will they be allowed to work?

Chris
02-27-2016, 03:13 PM
That's fine with me. There is nothing wrong with an actual community of individuals delineating their property lines. The problem arises when an abstract collective attempts to exercise "ownership" over some arbitrary area of land.

Like the State. Or a corporation/business using political means.

I like what I read about the way American Indians in many cases owned the land. The tribe owned it and parcelled it out to families for use and the family owned as long as they used it. If a property fell into disuse, it went back to the tribe to be re-parcelled out to another family.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:13 PM
We don't agree. I am against building a border wall and I'm against deporting millions of people. Building a wall won't stop people from smuggling, tunneling, and traveling by sea into America and it will cost taxpayers billions of dollars in construction and maintenance. And mass deportation will be devastating to the American economy. It will decrease the amount of goods and services we have to consume and it will substantially drive up prices of the same, not to mention the highly illiberal nature of the federal government fanning out across America looking for millions of people to arrest and deport. I cannot imagine how problematic that process would be. How many innocent Americans would be caught up in this dragnet? How many doors would be mistakenly kicked down by federal agents looking for illegal immigrants? Do you honestly trust heavily armed federal agents to go through American cities and neighborhoods on search missions for illegal immigrants?
Are there any other laws you don't want enforced because of the cost? Shall we stop enforcing tax laws? They are expensive to enforce. What about laws governing counterfeit good? Aren't they expensive to enforce?

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 03:13 PM
Posts like this are why Trump supporters are so hard to take seriously.

Maybe that's cause it wasn't a serious post

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:17 PM
Do you live in a house? Does it have walls? If so, why?

Yes, I live in a house with walls because I want to have privacy. Of course, the comparison between a house and a massive expanse of land is clearly specious.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:17 PM
Has that happened? Is it likely to?

If we're basing our positions on how likely it is to happen, then you guys don't have a leg to stand on, because there will never be such a wall, and there will never be massive deportation.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:20 PM
They will not build a wall. Trump is mistaken. We should though. And a wall with no trade war will not affect their economy in the slightest. We can cut all benefits to illegals, cut foreign aid to Mexico and build that wall. It's a win win.
It will be Trump's wall. He says the Mexicans will pay for it. I believe him. I suppose it will take a while to find out.

Matty
02-27-2016, 03:20 PM
We don't agree. I am against building a border wall and I'm against deporting millions of people. Building a wall won't stop people from smuggling, tunneling, and traveling by sea into America and it will cost taxpayers billions of dollars in construction and maintenance. And mass deportation will be devastating to the American economy. It will decrease the amount of goods and services we have to consume and it will substantially drive up prices of the same, not to mention the highly illiberal nature of the federal government fanning out across America looking for millions of people to arrest and deport. I cannot imagine how problematic that process would be. How many innocent Americans would be caught up in this dragnet? How many doors would be mistakenly kicked down by federal agents looking for illegal immigrants? Do you honestly trust heavily armed federal agents to go through American cities and neighborhoods on search missions for illegal immigrants?


I do not recall advocating for deportation of 20 million people. Cut off their benefits, their welfare. They will go home. The wall worked in San Diego. Yes it did.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:22 PM
Why can't we just cut benefits and foreign aid? Then American taxpayers wouldn't be on the line for illegal immigrants or foreigners. Why must a wall be part of the solution?
Walls are very good for establishing boundaries. They are excellent for controlling the movements of large numbers of people.

Matty
02-27-2016, 03:22 PM
It will be Trump's wall. He says the Mexicans will pay for it. I believe him. I suppose it will take a while to find out.


Do you also believe him when he tells you he will deport them then expedite their return? Does that make walking around sense to you? What will you say if you elect him and he does exactly that?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:22 PM
You want to legalize meth, crack, opium and heroin?

All drugs were legal in America until progressive busy-bodies pushed prohibition policies in the early 1900's. But I'm fine with letting the state governments decide their own drug policies, which is what the constitution provides for. So if more conservatives states like Texas want to prohibit drugs, then they can do so. And if more liberal states like Colorado want to legalize drugs, then can do so. That is the conservative, constitutional position on drugs.


Not to mention child prostitution.

You actually think I want to legalize child prostitution? Or are you just trying to smear me?


The open border with Mexico is a conduit for all sorts of bad things

So are the open borders between the several states. But that is a consequence of liberty. Some people will use it to do bad things. But that is not a reason to curtail liberty. As Thomas Jefferson once said: I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:24 PM
Because they're getting taxpayer-funded benefits. So the solution is to cut off the benefits. Problem solved.
Will we eliminate their "right" to a taxpayer funded public education? Will they be able to go to emergency rooms for free, meaning other customers pay medical services? Who will pay for the additional police?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:24 PM
Will you deny them public education? That is taxpayer funded. Will they be allowed to work?

I would leave that up to the states, but anyone who wanted to stop illegal immigrants from partaking in taxpayer funded education would have my support. It's their money and they shouldn't have to spend it on anyone they don't want to spend it on. If illegal immigrants want their children to be educated, then they can pay for it themselves. With liberty comes responsibility.

As for them being allowed to work, I see no reason why they shouldn't. Work is good for our economy.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:26 PM
Yes, I live in a house with walls because I want to have privacy. Of course, the comparison between a house and a massive expanse of land is clearly specious.
You do not use the walls to convey the sense, clearly, to others, that some things belong to you and they may not come in without your permission?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:31 PM
I would leave that up to the states, but anyone who wanted to stop illegal immigrants from partaking in taxpayer funded education would have my support. It's their money and they shouldn't have to spend it on anyone they don't want to spend it on. If illegal immigrants want their children to be educated, then they can pay for it themselves. With liberty comes responsibility.

As for them being allowed to work, I see no reason why they shouldn't. Work is good for our economy.
Then your proposals are not serious. You want the appearance but not the actuality of cutting off taxpayer funded benefits. Once you allow them to work and live here then all sorts of things come with it. Fire, medical, police all require additional funding.

It is best to put up a wall and deport them.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:31 PM
Are there any other laws you don't want enforced because of the cost? Shall we stop enforcing tax laws? They are expensive to enforce. What about laws governing counterfeit good? Aren't they expensive to enforce?

Law enforcement officials exercise discretion every single day. It is impossible for them to enforce every law at every moment. If cops went around enforcing every law without any consideration as to its practicality and its cost, the country would grind to a halt. For example, could you imagine what our roadways would look like if everyone who broke the speed limit got pulled over and ticketed?

Ultimately, laws are nothing more than man-made rules that exist to promote some kind of utilitarian societal concern. They are not infallible mandates handed down by God(s). Enforcing laws purely for their own sake is irrational.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:32 PM
Maybe that's cause it wasn't a serious post

Sometimes it's hard to tell with Trump supporters.

Matty
02-27-2016, 03:33 PM
Cannot deny them education. The Supreme Court has spoken.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:34 PM
Walls are very good for establishing boundaries. They are excellent for controlling the movements of large numbers of people.

Yes, the East Germans found that out the hard way.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:36 PM
Will we eliminate their "right" to a taxpayer funded public education? Will they be able to go to emergency rooms for free, meaning other customers pay medical services?

I'm a libertarian, so I'm not in favor of "free" stuff for anyone, let alone illegal immigrants. People should pay their own way in life.


Who will pay for the additional police?

Our police forces are already massively bloated as it is. We need less of them, not more.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:37 PM
Law enforcement officials exercise discretion every single day. It is impossible for them to enforce every law at every moment. If cops went around enforcing every law without any consideration as to its practicality and its cost, the country would grind to a halt. For example, could you imagine what our roadways would look like if everyone who broke the speed limit got pulled over and ticketed?

Ultimately, laws are nothing more than man-made rules that exist to promote some kind of utilitarian societal concern. They are not infallible mandates handed down by God(s). Enforcing laws purely for their own sake is irrational.
In other words, yes. You believe laws should be enforced or disregarded based on cost.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:38 PM
You do not use the walls to convey the sense, clearly, to others, that some things belong to you and they may not come in without your permission?

That is one purpose of walls, yes. But your attempt to compare a small house to a massive expanse of land is specious at best. Scale matters.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:38 PM
I'm a libertarian, so I'm not in favor of "free" stuff for anyone, let alone illegal immigrants. People should pay their own way in life.

Our police forces are already massively bloated as it is. We need less of them, not more.
Your solution is unworkable. Build a wall. Deport the illegal aliens. The problem will be greatly reduced without all of the pretense and tap-dancing.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:39 PM
That is one purpose of walls, yes. But your attempt to compare a small house to a massive expanse of land is specious at best. Scale matters.
Are there walls you disregard because they enclose something bigger than your house? When was the last time you scaled the fence at an airport? If you haven't yet, why not?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:40 PM
Then your proposals are not serious. you want the appearance but not the actuality of cutting off taxpayer funded benefits. Once you allow them to work and live here then all sorts of things come with it. Fire, medical, police all require additional funding.

My proposal is as serious as your proposal is. And the idea that someone cannot live and work in America without sponging off other people is something I would expect a Democrat to say. But there is no reason why people cannot pay for their own goods and services. No reason at all.


It is best to put up a wall and deport them.

I disagree.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:41 PM
Cannot deny them education. The Supreme Court has spoken.

The Supreme Court is not the final or sole arbiter of the constitution. The states and the people are, and they can nullify unconstitutional laws and precedents.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:41 PM
Yes, the East Germans found that out the hard way.
In my opinion, your thinking is very shallow. Do the walls of your house keep you in or do they help you regulate the flow of others across your boundaries? Did the East Germans intend to keep others out or did they use their walls to imprison their citizens who wanted to leave?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:43 PM
In other words, yes. You believe laws should be enforced or disregarded based on cost.

We don't create laws for their own sake. We create laws because they have social utility. So if enforcing a particular law in a particular way is prohibitively costly to society, it should not be enforced in that way.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 03:44 PM
My proposal is as serious as your proposal is. And the idea that someone cannot live and work in America without sponging off other people is something I would expect a Democrat to say. But there is no reason why people cannot pay for their own goods and services. No reason at all.
I disagree.
Between just you and me, I have the better argument. Walls are time-honored solutions to the difficult problem of managing the flow of people. Make believe about who will pay for all of the services that come with living a life will not solve the problem. Your solution is a fig leaf. Mine is a wall backed by men and women with guns and the threat of violence.

texan
02-27-2016, 03:45 PM
Have to disagree.

"Build the Panama, and Erie Canals, the Hoover Dam, and went to the moon" all had benefits attached to them. A wall between the US and Mexico has none. So while possible to do, it benefits no one.

Regulating trade with the intent of making Mexico pay will, like any other protectionist scheme, only make American consumers pay the higher costs of tariffs.


No argument on illegal immigrants, they're here illegally.

Why would you say it has no benefit?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:45 PM
Your solution is unworkable.

Why is it unworkable? Is there some reason people cannot pay for their own goods and services? If so, I haven't heard it.


Build a wall. Deport the illegal aliens. The problem will be greatly reduced without all of the pretense and tap-dancing.

If my solution is unworkable, then your solution is virtually impossible.

texan
02-27-2016, 03:49 PM
There a definitely ways they can pay for a wall in the restructuring of deals. Fines, tariffs ETC....to dismiss it like we know how all these agreements work is kind of funny.

One thing The Donald is correct about is there is a huge difference between life long lawyer public servants and an actual practical business person.

BTW you cannot build a wall all the way across.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:49 PM
Are there walls you disregard because they enclose something bigger than your house?

I don't regularly encounter walls that are bigger than a residential or commercial scale.


When was the last time you scaled the fence at an airport? If you haven't yet, why not?

I didn't scale the wall at the airport because I had no cause to scale them. But trying to compare an airport to a massive expanse of land is still specious. Boundaries and the like cannot be divorced from the issue of scale.

And I could turn this around on you. Are there any walls you think are illegitimate? Or is any wall that anyone builds okay because it establishes a boundary?

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 03:50 PM
If we're basing our positions on how likely it is to happen, then you guys don't have a leg to stand on, because there will never be such a wall, and there will never be massive deportation.

That's just your hope but it is far from certain

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:51 PM
In my opinion, your thinking is very shallow.

Right back at ya.


Do the walls of your house keep you in or do they help you regulate the flow of others across your boundaries? Did the East Germans intend to keep others out or did they use their walls to imprison their citizens who wanted to leave?

It was intended to keep people out and keep people in. But why should that matter? The wall was there to establish a boundary and regulate the flow of people, just like you said earlier.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 03:52 PM
BTW you cannot build a wall all the way across.

I don't expect a wall all the way across

Virtual electronic fences are best in some places

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:53 PM
Between just you and me, I have the better argument. Walls are time-honored solutions to the difficult problem of managing the flow of people. Make believe about who will pay for all of the services that come with living a life will not solve the problem. Your solution is a fig leaf. Mine is a wall backed by men and women with guns and the threat of violence.

Actually, I have the better argument, and it will be proven when Trump's grandiose promises go unfulfilled and he's left making silly excuses for why he couldn't get the job done.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 03:54 PM
That's just your hope but it is far from certain

I'm not the one saying that the validity of our positions are based on how likely they are to happen.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 04:00 PM
All drugs were legal in America until progressive busy-bodies pushed prohibition policies in the early 1900's. But I'm fine with letting the state governments decide their own drug policies, which is what the constitution provides for. So if more conservatives states like Texas want to prohibit drugs, then they can do so. And if more liberal states like Colorado want to legalize drugs, then can do so. That is the conservative, constitutional position on drugs.



You actually think I want to legalize child prostitution? Or are you just trying to smear me?



So are the open borders between the several states. But that is a consequence of liberty. Some people will use it to do bad things. But that is not a reason to curtail liberty. As Thomas Jefferson once said: I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.

The reason those drugs were outlawed was because they were addictive and harmful

And I don't think you want to legalize child prostitution

That's why I pointed out the consequences of your open border policy

PNW
02-27-2016, 04:05 PM
Walls work every time they are tried. The Southern wall will be effective in reducing the enormous flows of Obama's Children's illegal alien Army. Add to it finding, detaining and deporting the 11-30 million illegal aliens who are here and the wall becomes even more effective. Find the 40% of aliens who come here on visas. Deport them, at their expense and never, ever let them come back.

Congress can fix the anchor baby interpretation with a simple law. Congress can dramatically curtail legal immigration and change the laws so the immigrants who are allowed in benefit the US.

The wall is the starting point.


wow, just wow.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:08 PM
The reason those drugs were outlawed was because they were addictive and harmful

Big government social engineers always have some benevolent pretext for their big government policies. Drug prohibition is no different. But the proper, constitutional role of the government is not to go around protecting people from themselves. It's only proper function is to enforce the rights of the individual.


And I don't think you want to legalize child prostitution

Then why did you mention it?


That's why I pointed out the consequences of your open border policy

Not sure what you're talking about. What does an open border have to do with legalizing child prostitution?

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 04:16 PM
I'm not the one saying that the validity of our positions are based on how likely they are to happen.

Who is saying that?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:16 PM
Who is saying that?

The poster I was responding to in the post you quoted. Go back and read the conversation.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:18 PM
Why is it unworkable? Is there some reason people cannot pay for their own goods and services? If so, I haven't heard it.

If my solution is unworkable, then your solution is virtually impossible.
It is simple to build a wall. It is simple to find, detain, and deport people. It is not simple to undo the havoc that illegals in our presence causes by pretending we will make them pay their own way.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:19 PM
I don't regularly encounter walls that are bigger than a residential or commercial scale.



I didn't scale the wall at the airport because I had no cause to scale them. But trying to compare an airport to a massive expanse of land is still specious. Boundaries and the like cannot be divorced from the issue of scale.

And I could turn this around on you. Are there any walls you think are illegitimate? Or is any wall that anyone builds okay because it establishes a boundary?
Why would I spend any time even pondering your "turn around"?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:20 PM
It is simple to build a wall. It is simple to find, detain, and deport people. It is not simple to undo the havoc that illegals in our presence causes by pretending we will make them pay their own way.

It's simple to find, detain, and deport millions of undocumented immigrants? In what universe?

Seems to me, making people pay for their own goods and services in life is not only simple, it's just.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:20 PM
If we're basing our positions on how likely it is to happen, then you guys don't have a leg to stand on, because there will never be such a wall, and there will never be massive deportation.
That sound you hear is me quietly laughing at you.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:20 PM
Why would I spend any time even pondering your "turn around"?

I don't really care what you do.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:21 PM
That sound you hear is me quietly laughing at you.

I wonder how hard you will be laughing when Trump's unrealistic, grandiose promises go totally unfulfilled.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 04:21 PM
But the proper, constitutional role of the government is not to go around protecting people from themselves.


n?

As far as I'm concerned we are saving society from the drug zombies because their addiction costs us money

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:22 PM
Do you also believe him when he tells you he will deport them then expedite their return? Does that make walking around sense to you? What will you say if you elect him and he does exactly that?
Haven't we already had this discussion?

I will be very happy if he gets the wall completed and the millions booted. He will need Congress to help with the return side of things. I will like it even more if the Congress cuts way back on the number if immigrants we allow in every year. We have 50 million to assimilate before we bring in more.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 04:23 PM
I wonder how hard you will be laughing when Trump's unrealistic, grandiose promises go totally unfulfilled.

I wish I had a crystal ball like yours

I think trump will surprise the critics

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:27 PM
BTW you cannot build a wall all the way across.
What is your reasoning?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:31 PM
Right back at ya.
It was intended to keep people out and keep people in. But why should that matter? The wall was there to establish a boundary and regulate the flow of people, just like you said earlier.
Yes. It was a boundary designed to restrict the flow of people.

Now, did they put up that wall to keep people out or to keep people in? Be honest, if you can. If you cannot because of your position, I will understand. I was in Germany when the wall (the Berlin wall) went up. As an intelligence officer, I had oversight responsibility for roughly 120 kilometers of the border between West Germany and Czechoslovakia.

If you are going to use the wall between the Germanies as an example of learning lessons about walls what lesson did you learn?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:31 PM
I don't expect a wall all the way across

Virtual electronic fences are best in some places
I was more interested in why Tex believes a wall cannot be build all the way across.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:33 PM
Actually, I have the better argument, and it will be proven when Trump's grandiose promises go unfulfilled and he's left making silly excuses for why he couldn't get the job done.
Cool. I suppose you will be one of the ones who stands in wonder once the wall has been completed.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:35 PM
Walls work every time they are tried. The Southern wall will be effective in reducing the enormous flows of Obama's Children's illegal alien Army. Add to it finding, detaining and deporting the 11-30 million illegal aliens who are here and the wall becomes even more effective. Find the 40% of aliens who come here on visas. Deport them, at their expense and never, ever let them come back.

Congress can fix the anchor baby interpretation with a simple law. Congress can dramatically curtail legal immigration and change the laws so the immigrants who are allowed in benefit the US.

The wall is the starting point.

wow, just wow.
I know. I know. It is breathtaking in its elegance and simplicity. You will have plenty of time to grow accustomed to the idea and the rest of your life to marvel.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:36 PM
As far as I'm concerned we are saving society from the drug zombies because their addiction costs us money

Drug prohibition costs billions of dollars, so your position makes no sense at all.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:37 PM
Who is saying that?
He was responding to me asking how likely his dreams of illegal aliens being made to pay for the services they consume. The wall is likely. Sending a bill to each illegal demanding payment for the additional police coverage is not.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:37 PM
I wish I had a crystal ball like yours

Why don't you just borrow MisterVeritis's?

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 04:37 PM
If we conduct a trade war with mexico so that they will be basically extorted into building a wall that only we want then it would destroy their economy.

Which is why they will build or pay for it. Pronto. :smiley:

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:38 PM
It's simple to find, detain, and deport millions of undocumented immigrants? In what universe?

Seems to me, making people pay for their own goods and services in life is not only simple, it's just.
It is very simple. What part do you believe is difficult?

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 04:38 PM
yes I agree that the cost of the wall would be less than the impact of a trade war but it's all moot anyway since there will be no trade war and they will not be paying for our wall.

I don't think so either.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:39 PM
I wonder how hard you will be laughing when Trump's unrealistic, grandiose promises go totally unfulfilled.
I suppose we shall see in a bit more than a year.

A Grand Trump Wall sounds nice. I predict it will become a tourist attraction.

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 04:39 PM
How does that affect tunnels?


Sent using the power of the ring

Tunnels have a much larger diameter than insect sized drones.

Matty
02-27-2016, 04:41 PM
Haven't we already had this discussion?

I will be very happy if he gets the wall completed and the millions booted. He will need Congress to help with the return side of things. I will like it even more if the Congress cuts way back on the number if immigrants we allow in every year. We have 50 million to assimilate before we bring in more.




He won't. You will just be putting another blowhard New York liberal in the WH. For a half baked promise!

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:41 PM
Yes. It was a boundary designed to restrict the flow of people.

Now, did they put up that wall to keep people out or to keep people in? Be honest, if you can. If you cannot because of your position, I will understand. I was in Germany when the wall (the Berlin wall) went up. As an intelligence officer, I had oversight responsibility for roughly 120 kilometers of the border between West Germany and Czechoslovakia.

If you are going to use the wall between the Germanies as an example of learning lessons about walls what lesson did you learn?

I already answered the question. It was designed to keep people out and to keep people in. But the fact remains, the wall established a boundary and it regulated the flow of people, just like you said.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:41 PM
Why don't you just borrow MisterVeritis's?
Mine has a good record for being right. I am willing to work on your problems for a fee.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:43 PM
Tunnels have a much larger diameter than insect sized drones.
Technologies are available that work well in identifying tunnels.

Peter1469
02-27-2016, 04:43 PM
You asked how the wall is destroying their economy but there is no wall yet. My point that you responded to was about the damage that would be done to their economy by forcing a trade war to force them into building the wall.

There is a lot of wall. And a lot of border with no wall.

The first link here (https://law.utexas.edu/humanrights/borderwall/maps/background-maps.html)shows the portions of the fence completed as of 2013. pdf alert at that first link.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:44 PM
I already answered the question. It was designed to keep people out and to keep people in. But the fact remains, the wall established a boundary and it regulated the flow of people, just like you said.
I knew you could not be honest. Cool

What lessons did you learn from the totalitarian walls?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:45 PM
Cool. I suppose you will be one of the ones who stands in wonder once the wall has been completed.

Or maybe you'll be one of those people who stands in wonder after Trump's promises go unfulfilled and he's left making excuses.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:46 PM
He was responding to me asking how likely his dreams of illegal aliens being made to pay for the services they consume. The wall is likely. Sending a bill to each illegal demanding payment for the additional police coverage is not.

I never said you have to send them a bill, and your assumption that we need more cops when we already have far too many of them is pretty absurd.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:47 PM
It is very simple. What part do you believe is difficult?

And you accuse me of being dishonest?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:47 PM
I never said you have to send them a bill, and your assumption that we need more cops when we already have far too many of them is pretty absurd.
More people, especially people here illegally, require more cops. How will you make the illegals pay if you don't send them a bill?

Your idea is unworkable.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:49 PM
And you accuse me of being dishonest?
Yes. The wall was designed to keep their people prisoners. That is why the razor wire, mines and automated shotguns were on their side of the wall.

What do you believe is difficult about building a wall, finding detaining and deporting people? All we have to do is choose to do so.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 04:50 PM
Why don't you just borrow MisterVeritis's?

Ok

I can't say for sure that trump will accomplish everything he promises

He probably won't succeed entirely

But you can't say that he can't do any of it

Or he can't do most of it when it comes to illegal aliens

But with the total support of millions of Americans I think he will accomplish something

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:50 PM
More people, especially people here illegally, require more cops. How will you make the illegals pay if you don't send them a bill?

Your idea is unworkable.

We already have far too many cops as it is, so the idea that we need more cops is preposterous. And you can finance government services with sales taxes and property taxes, which is not something a person can get around paying, so the solution is simple. You just refuse to be honest about it because you're clinging to a simplistic wall/deportation scenario that will never actually happen.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 04:52 PM
Which is why they will build or pay for it. Pronto. :smiley:

That's what I think

Mexico has more to lose on a trade war than we do

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 04:53 PM
We already have far too many cops as it is, so the idea that we need more cops is preposterous. And you can finance government services with sales taxes and property taxes, which is not something a person can get around paying, so the solution is simple. You just refuse to be honest about it because you're clinging to a simplistic wall/deportation scenario that will never actually happen.
People here illegally requires additional cops. Will you have an illegal alien sales and property tax so they can pay for the additional cops?

What your solution really does is provides the fig leaf without the actual ability to charge the illegal aliens for the service they either cause or consume. your utopia is unworkable.

Build the wall. Deport the illegal aliens. Most of the problem simply goes away.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:54 PM
Ok

I can't say for sure that trump will accomplish everything he promises

He probably won't succeed entirely

But you can't say that he can't do any of it

Or he can't do most of it when it comes to illegal aliens

But with the total support of millions of Americans I think he will accomplish something

His plans will be picked apart mercilessly and they will lose all credibility almost immediately.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 04:59 PM
People here illegally requires additional cops.

No, it won't, because we already have far too many cops as it is.


Will you have an illegal alien sales and property tax so they can pay for the additional cops?

What kind of a stupid question is that?


What your solution really does is provides the fig leaf without the actual ability to charge the illegal aliens for the service they either cause or consume. your utopia is unworkable.

The ability to charge them for government services will be accomplished by sales taxes and property taxes.


Build the wall. Deport the illegal aliens. Most of the problem simply goes away.

Pure fantasy that will never happen.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 05:01 PM
That's what I think

Mexico has more to lose on a trade war than we do

We import more goods from them than they do from us, so, no, we have more to lose.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 05:03 PM
we import more goods from them than they do from us, so, no, we have more to lose.
lol.

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 05:07 PM
His plans will be picked apart mercilessly and they will lose all credibility almost immediately.

The same way he will be run out of the race by May or July or October?

Everyone continues to underestimate trump

Mac-7
02-27-2016, 05:09 PM
lol.

I agree

That was a silly thing to say

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 05:47 PM
A start.

Sorry, getting off topic.

The Hoover Dam, for example, generates electrical power, the Panama Canal eases trade. What can a wall itself do?

Prevent illegals from coming in and taxing the social service network costing Americans hundreds of billions of dollars a year.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 05:53 PM
This is precisely why I cannot support Trump, because he and his supporters are so aggressively authoritarian and totalitarian when it comes to this particular issue.

Not only is the idea of a massive wall antithetical to liberty, but it's totally impractical and will not solve the underlying issue. There will always be ways around a wall now matter how big and shiny it is. People will smuggle, tunnel, and travel by sea in order to get around it.

But the worst thing about their plan is to "get tough on employers". This horrible policy will only empower the government to massively invade the privacy of American businesses. I thought Republicans were supposed to the the party of economic liberty, yet they want the federal government to insinuate itself into the hiring practices of every business in the country? This is their idea of liberty!?

Immigration is one of the things that the Constitution give the government the authority to regulate. Thus they can set laws.

Employers that knowingly employ illegals to avoid taxes, minimum wages of any other reasons are breaking the law. Now I don't what the government to be able to go on a Witch hunt, but if they have probable cause and can get a search warrant issued by a judge, then these business owners are breaking the law and hurting the lives of their fellow Americans. And nothing is 100% WE have been arresting Murderers for centuries, but people are still going to kill people, does that mean that we should not enforce that law either.


Sure people will find a way around any law, but if we can stop 90% of it, the it will only cost the citizens 10 billion a year and 9.9 million American people will have new jobs. One thing I feel that we need to do is stop trying for an all or nothing approach. we have to start somewhere, Amnesty is not it. but turning off the faucet will usually stop the sink form overflowing. I think that is a good place to start.

Matty
02-27-2016, 05:54 PM
We import more goods from them than they do from us, so, no, we have more to lose.


Let's sacrifice and try it. What we are doing sure isn't working.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 05:56 PM
I agree

That was a silly thing to say

It was silly to cite a fact that disproves your earlier assertion? How so?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 05:56 PM
Okay? I'm pretty sure everyone who posts on this forum does something illegal every day. It's impossible not to break the law in a country where there are millions of laws that nobody understands or respects.

WSJ - (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842)You Commit Three Felonies a Day (http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842)

So the mere fact of something being illegal cannot be a rational or practical grounds for its blanket enforcement. If every law now existing on the books were enforced comprehensively and aggressively, this country would grind to a halt under the onerous operations of authoritarianism and totalitarianism.

I actually agree with that.

But there is the fact that many do not pay any taxes and we are 19 trillion in debt, so that is illegal

Then you have the fact that they are taxing the School, Social Service, and Medical systems costing over 100 billion a year. That is strike 2

Then you have the other crimes that some of them commit, including murder and drug trafficking. that is another strike.

So I say 3 strikes and you are OUT!

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 05:57 PM
Why is it necessary to spend billions of dollars locating and deporting millions of people when you can just deny them benefits?

This has been my plan all along, if you deny them benefits, jobs, and sanctuary in the government programs and liberal cities, they will go home all by themselves.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 05:59 PM
That's not a very libertarian approach to the issue, is it? Where does the Constitution authorize the federal government to regulate immigration anyway?

http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/40/naturalization

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:01 PM
I wouldn't. The costs far outweigh the benefits, especially since most of them are coming here to WORK, and that is good for our economy.

not when we have so many people on unemployment and welfare. Add to that the fact that many of them are working under the table and overloading the social safety net and you have a real issue.

Now if those that do not want to crack down on illegal immigration want to donate 100 billion dollars to take care of them and about another 100 billion to take care of those that have lost jobs, then I have no issue.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:02 PM
Immigration is one of the things that the Constitution give the government the authority to regulate. Thus they can set laws.

The constitution says nothing about "immigration", and that is why there were virtually no federal laws pertaining to immigration until the late 1800's when the "progressive" movement began destroying the constitution.


Employers that knowingly employ illegals to avoid taxes, minimum wages of any other reasons are breaking the law. Now I don't what the government to be able to go on a Witch hunt, but if they have probable cause and can get a search warrant issued by a judge, then these business owners are breaking the law and hurting the lives of their fellow Americans. And nothing is 100% WE have been arresting Murderers for centuries, but people are still going to kill people, does that mean that we should not enforce that law either.

Sure people will find a way around any law, but if we can stop 90% of it, the it will only cost the citizens 10 billion a year and 9.9 million American people will have new jobs. One thing I feel that we need to do is stop trying for an all or nothing approach. we have to start somewhere, Amnesty is not it. but turning off the faucet will usually stop the sink form overflowing. I think that is a good place to start.

Laws don't exist for their own sake. They should serve some kind of purpose. But what purposes does it serve to send the federal government after thousands of American businesses and millions of immigrants living and working in America? Competition is good for our economy, so there is no reason to try and stifle it by going after people who are living and working in peace. If someone does something damaging to another person, then by all means, go after them. But as long as someone is working and living and peace, they should be left alone.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:05 PM
Taking jobs? Jobs are not finite resource that we can run out of, they are tasks that produce economic value for others. You're basically saying that getting rid of millions of workers would somehow be good for our economy. But that would lower our productive capacity and drive up prices substantially. Why do Republicans become so anti-market when it comes to immigrants? Do they think the market stops working when a laborer comes from a different country?
http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare

I am thinking that some of these folks could fill in the gap? What do you think? Why would productivity go down when we have able bodies to fill the jobs.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:06 PM
http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/40/naturalization

I don't see the word "immigration" anywhere in the enumerated powers of Congress. And the fact that there were virtually no federal immigration agencies or polices in America until the late 1800's proves that it was not part of the original intent of the founding fathers when they ratified the constitution. It wasn't until the "progressive" era that federal immigration agencies and policies were firmly institutionalized.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:07 PM
So you've identified the problem, burdensome taxes and regulations. Shouldn't the solution be to reduce taxes and regulations then?

Just the opposite of what I said,

We have rising taxations and regulations in this country not Mexico. thus the problem

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:08 PM
That's how it was in virtually every country in the world including America during the 1700 and 1800's. I guess they were all insane?

Not really, nearly all entered through Ellis Island, and were recorded, that is why most people can trace their heritage back to the old world

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:09 PM
not when we have so many people on unemployment and welfare. Add to that the fact that many of them are working under the table and overloading the social safety net and you have a real issue.

Now if those that do not want to crack down on illegal immigration want to donate 100 billion dollars to take care of them and about another 100 billion to take care of those that have lost jobs, then I have no issue.

Competition doesn't promote unemployment. The market economy is not a zero-sum game where one person's gain is another person's loss. And I always find it odd when conservatives talk about these unemployed people like they cannot find a job. Aren't conservatives always telling us that these unemployed people are just lazy sponges who don't want to get off their butts and work for a living?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:09 PM
Mexico is not going to spend billions of dollars building our border wall. It's just not going to happen. If Trump is elected president though i'd be curious to hear his excuses in four years as to why none of the things he told America to believe ("believe me") actually came true. What will be his excuse when there is no big beautiful border wall? What will his excuse be when the situation with China and other countries has not changed, if not made worse? What will be his excuse if the economy is worse despite "management" being the reason why he was going to make us "win" again? What will his excuse be when the 11 million illegals he said he would deport are still here? I can answer it already....His excuses will be the media, all of the losers, the idiots, the bimbos that didn't vote for him and that dont regard him as the best president in history, the mexicans, the russians, the chinese, the europeans, the lizard people from outer space, and Jeb Bush of course. It's called "we have a country" folks. Duh.

So what if congress imposed a 2% tariff on all imports coming from Mexico, do you think they would pay it, or would they just shut their factories down?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:12 PM
I actually agree with that.

But there is the fact that many do not pay any taxes and we are 19 trillion in debt, so that is illegal

Then you have the fact that they are taxing the School, Social Service, and Medical systems costing over 100 billion a year. That is strike 2

Then you have the other crimes that some of them commit, including murder and drug trafficking. that is another strike.

So I say 3 strikes and you are OUT!

Except they do pay taxes: Study Finds Illegal Immigrants Pay $11.8B in Taxes (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/04/16/Study-Finds-Illegal-Immigrants-Pay-118B-Taxes)

But if the problem is illegal immigrants sponging off of taxpayer-funded services, then isn't the simplest solution to simply deny them those services?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 06:13 PM
It was silly to cite a fact that disproves your earlier assertion? How so?
It was the sort of thing an imbecile might say. That is why I laughed. It was simply not like you. Was it?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:13 PM
Zelmo said it in his OP. And the E-verify program is supported by Republicans. They want the federal government to stick its big, fat nose into the private affairs of American businesses. This is fundamentally anti-American and antithetical to liberty. It's not the responsibility of private citizens to enforce federal immigration policies or to report their hiring practices to federal agencies.

This is a bit of a streach But I have NO issue with legal immigration, these hard working folks pay into the system and are on the books

E is wrong in saying that the government does not have the right to regulate Immigration

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare

And people that are here illegally are criminals. people that employ them under the table are committing tax evasion and fraud, and they are criminals too.

I don't like paying higher taxes to support people that are breaking our laws. So while I don't think that the government should just do random checks, if there is reasonable cause and they can get a warrant, then companies and people should be held accountable

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:14 PM
This has been my plan all along, if you deny them benefits, jobs, and sanctuary in the government programs and liberal cities, they will go home all by themselves.

Why are you so concerned with them going home? Never in my life has an illegal immigrant done something bad to me. I've never been put out by an illegal immigrant. I doubt many Americans have. So what is about them that you find so horrible that you feel like they need to leave in order for you to be happy?

But why isn't it sufficient to simply deny them benefits? Why must they also be denied jobs or living arrangements? If they're here working and living in peace, then what is the problem? What do you find so offensive about that?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:15 PM
The drug and prostitution problems are a direct result of prohibition and criminalization policies.

As for Americans losing their chance to work, that assertion rests on the assumption that the economy is a fixed pie with a finite amount of jobs. That is a belief more suited to a Marxist than a conservative. In reality, the market economy is not a zero-sum game where one person's gain is another person's lose. A job produces value for society, and more labor produces more value by lowering prices and pushing out the production possibilities frontier:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Production_Possibilities_Frontier_Curve.svg/220px-Production_Possibilities_Frontier_Curve.svg.png

OK so when we have 100% employment and there are less the one million people on welfare, then we can open the border? Sound good. Until then we need every job that we can get.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:16 PM
http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare

I am thinking that some of these folks could fill in the gap? What do you think? Why would productivity go down when we have able bodies to fill the jobs.

I am thinking that a lot of them don't want to work and would rather be on welfare. I have no respect for someone just because they are an American. I have much more respect for someone who is willing to do a job for a fair price than I do for an American that feels entitled to something.

Matty
02-27-2016, 06:16 PM
Why are you so concerned with them going home? Never in my life has an illegal immigrant done something bad to me. I've never been put out by an illegal immigrant. I doubt many Americans have. So what is about them that you find so horrible that you feel like they need to leave in order for you to be happy?

But why isn't it sufficient to simply deny them benefits? Why must they also be denied jobs or living arrangements? If they're here working and living in peace, then what is the problem? What do you find so offensive about that?


Tell that to the Steinle family.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:16 PM
Except the long term ramifications for us would be 10x worse by destroying the economy of an already poor nation that we claim is invading our country for jobs. Building the border wall by financially destroying Mexico will not end well.

I know putting all those Americans back to work would be a bitch. Now to worry if you want to donate your income to take care of them? Nobody will stop you.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:16 PM
Tell that to the Steinle family.

What percentage of Americans have been victimized by an illegal immigrant?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:17 PM
Just the opposite of what I said,

We have rising taxations and regulations in this country not Mexico. thus the problem

If the problem is rising taxes and regulations, then isn't the solution to lower taxes and regulations?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:18 PM
I have to ask if supporters of the wall idea if they are unaware that a significant number of illegal immigrants come to America through tunnels as it is. What will happen if a wall is built? That number will only increase, and there will be no significant effect on the number of illegal immigrants coming through.


Sent using the power of the ring

Not if you start caving in the tunnels on top of them. It will only take a few to send a very strong message.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:18 PM
Not really, nearly all entered through Ellis Island, and were recorded, that is why most people can trace their heritage back to the old world

There were virtually no immigration laws or agencies in America during the 1700 and 1800's. It wasn't until the late 1800's during the "progressive" era that this started to change.

Matty
02-27-2016, 06:19 PM
What percentage of Americans have been victimized by an illegal immigrant?


It dosen't matter. You claimed they harmed no one I said tell that to the Steinle family or all the others who lost their children to illegals committing crimes. Guess what? Democrats in congress turned a deaf ear just like you are doing.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:19 PM
So what if congress imposed a 2% tariff on all imports coming from Mexico, do you think they would pay it, or would they just shut their factories down?

American consumers would pay for it in the form of higher prices.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:20 PM
This is a bit of a streach But I have NO issue with legal immigration, these hard working folks pay into the system and are on the books

E is wrong in saying that the government does not have the right to regulate Immigration

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/terence-p-jeffrey/354-percent-109631000-welfare

And people that are here illegally are criminals. people that employ them under the table are committing tax evasion and fraud, and they are criminals too.

I don't like paying higher taxes to support people that are breaking our laws. So while I don't think that the government should just do random checks, if there is reasonable cause and they can get a warrant, then companies and people should be held accountable

So immigration doesn't cause unemployment as long as it is legal?

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:21 PM
No, it should protect the rights of individuals, nothing more.

Actually it should protect the rights of it's Citizens Allowing illegals actually hurts those rights, So they need to work for the citizens and not against them.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:21 PM
OK so when we have 100% employment and there are less the one million people on welfare, then we can open the border? Sound good. Until then we need every job that we can get.

Illegal immigration doesn't cause unemployment, and it doesn't cause people to go on welfare, so deporting illegal immigrants won't solve either of those problems.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:22 PM
You claimed they harmed no one...

You're a liar.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:24 PM
Actually it should protect the rights of it's Citizens Allowing illegals actually hurts those rights, So they need to work for the citizens and not against them.

An illegal immigrant living and working in peace does not harm me at all.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:24 PM
Does it destroy the economy of Texas when people move there from California in order to find jobs? Does it destroy the economy of Indiana when people move there from Illinois in order to find jobs? Of course not. If anything, it greatly benefits their economies by increasing their productive capacity and lowering prices. There is no accepted theory of economics where more work means less wealth for society. It's precisely the opposite.

Unless the work prevents people from getting off the system and that work actually puts more people on the system and that work is being done under the table so that it is not paying into the system? That is the difference.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:25 PM
I'm not aware of any accepted theory of economics that says work is bad for the economy.

Well math is a problem with your theory. and Work when being done outside the system does cost the system.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:26 PM
Unless the work prevents people from getting off the system and that work actually puts more people on the system and that work is being done under the table so that it is not paying into the system? That is the difference.

There is no reason to believe that illegal immigrants living and working America do those things.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:27 PM
Well math is a problem with your theory.

What math would that be?


and Work when being done outside the system does cost the system.

No, it doesn't cost them anything. It actually produces wealth and creates taxable exchanges.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:31 PM
All drugs were legal in America until progressive busy-bodies pushed prohibition policies in the early 1900's. But I'm fine with letting the state governments decide their own drug policies, which is what the constitution provides for. So if more conservatives states like Texas want to prohibit drugs, then they can do so. And if more liberal states like Colorado want to legalize drugs, then can do so. That is the conservative, constitutional position on drugs.



You actually think I want to legalize child prostitution? Or are you just trying to smear me?



So are the open borders between the several states. But that is a consequence of liberty. Some people will use it to do bad things. But that is not a reason to curtail liberty. As Thomas Jefferson once said: I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.

drugs have always been and should remain a states right the feds over stepped there authority as usual

Matty
02-27-2016, 06:33 PM
You're a liar.


You're asshole! So, there's that.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 06:35 PM
I have to ask if supporters of the wall idea if they are unaware that a significant number of illegal immigrants come to America through tunnels as it is. What will happen if a wall is built? That number will only increase, and there will be no significant effect on the number of illegal immigrants coming through.


Sent using the power of the ring
We can detect tunnels. Build the wall and deport the illegal aliens. We might as well let them come through the tunnels and capture them some distance away from the tunnels. Tattoo them and put a chip in each captured ass. The second time we catch them we can release them at sea.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 06:36 PM
Sorry if I don't believe that.
I cannot prevent you from clinging to your error.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 06:39 PM
Illegal immigration doesn't cause unemployment, and it doesn't cause people to go on welfare, so deporting illegal immigrants won't solve either of those problems.
It is a shame we are not allowed to use kook alerts.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:42 PM
You're $#@!! So, there's that.

Do you think calling me a name will make you less of a stupid, lying b!tch?

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:43 PM
It is a shame we are not allowed to use kook alerts.

It's a shame that a dishonest idiot like yourself was ever allowed to conduct intelligence operations for the US government. Someone must have made a huge mistake.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:44 PM
There is no reason to believe that illegal immigrants living and working America do those things.

ok you don't live on main street we know they are doing those thing or they would get caught

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 06:45 PM
What math would that be?



No, it doesn't cost them anything. It actually produces wealth and creates taxable exchanges.

it cost us 100 billion plus a year when that stops I am with you

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:46 PM
ok you don't live on main street we know they are doing those thing or they would get caught

Competition among laborers doesn't cause unemployment. Minimum wage laws, taxes, inflation, and regulations cause unemployment.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:47 PM
it cost us 100 billion plus a year when that stops I am with you

So let's work on revoking their benefits. That would have a much greater chance of success than some giant wall and a massive deportation scheme

Matty
02-27-2016, 06:48 PM
Do you think calling me a name will make you less of a stupid, lying b!tch?


No, I think it makes you a ****.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:51 PM
No, I think it makes you a ****.

I don't really care what some lying b!tch like you thinks.

Matty
02-27-2016, 06:53 PM
I don't really care what some lying b!tch like you thinks.


Queef why don't ya?

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 06:56 PM
It's a shame that a dishonest idiot like yourself was ever allowed to conduct intelligence operations for the US government. Someone must have made a huge mistake.
In truth, I believe I did. But spending 20 years on active duty did allow me to have a very wide range of growth experiences.

I still believe we should have some sort of a kook alert icon...for situations much like...well, you know.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:58 PM
Queef why don't ya?

You ARE a queef.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 06:59 PM
In truth, I believe I did. But spending 20 years on active duty did allow me to have a very wide range of growth experiences.

I still believe we should have some sort of a kook alert icon...for situations much like...well, you know.

Do you honestly think I care? You're just some random douche bag on the internet.

zelmo1234
02-27-2016, 07:00 PM
It's a shame that a dishonest idiot like yourself was ever allowed to conduct intelligence operations for the US government. Someone must have made a huge mistake.

please don't resort to name calling either one of you this has been a good discussion

Matty
02-27-2016, 07:01 PM
You ARE a queef.



You must be my twin.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 07:01 PM
Do you honestly think I care? You're just some random douche bag on the internet.
So as not to be too boring. This can be the last word.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 07:02 PM
please don't resort to name calling either one of you this has been a good discussion

I never resort to name calling unless someone else has given me a reason to. MisterVeritis has a history of behaving like an arrogant dirtbag, so it's no surprise that the discussion deteriorated the way it did.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 07:02 PM
You must be my twin.

I'm not a lying tw@t, so I couldn't be your twin.

Matty
02-27-2016, 07:03 PM
I'm not a lying tw@t, so I couldn't be your twin.


Yes you are a lying twat. And an asshole too.

Matty
02-27-2016, 07:05 PM
So far ethereal has called Zelmo, mr. Verities, myself names. It must be a regular little libtard meltdown.

MisterVeritis
02-27-2016, 07:06 PM
I never resort to name calling unless someone else has given me a reason to. MisterVeritis has a history of behaving like an arrogant dirtbag, so it's no surprise that the discussion deteriorated the way it did.
I am an arrogant dirtbag! I have worked hard my whole life so I could be an arrogant dirt bag.

But in truth, it is your unworkable solutions combined with your unreasoning, although valiant efforts, to sell us a lemon that caused this discussion to move to the path it did.

You try too hard. :-)

Besides, my cat loves me.

Ethereal
02-27-2016, 07:06 PM
So far ethereal has called Zelmo, mr. Verities, myself names. It must be a regular little libtard meltdown.

I didn't call Zelmo any names because Zelmo isn't behaving like an arrogant, lying piece of trash like you and Veritis.