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Ethereal
03-08-2016, 06:51 PM
Nobody Knows the Identity of the 150 People Killed by U.S. in Somalia, but Most Are Certain They Deserved It (https://theintercept.com/2016/03/08/nobody-knows-the-identity-of-the-150-people-killed-by-u-s-in-somalia-but-most-are-certain-they-deserved-it/)

Glenn Greenwald
Mar. 8 2016, 1:39 p.m.

The U.S. used drones and manned aircraft yesterday to drop bombs and missiles on Somalia, ending the lives of at least 150 people. As it virtually always does, the Obama administration instantly claimed that the people killed were “terrorists” and militants — members of the Somali group al Shabaab — but provided no evidence to support that assertion.

Nonetheless, most U.S. media reports contained nothing more than quotes from U.S. officials about what happened, conveyed uncritically and with no skepticism of their accuracy: The dead “fighters … were assembled for what American officials believe was a graduation ceremony and prelude to an imminent attack against American troops,” pronounced the New York Times. So, the official story goes, The Terrorists were that very moment “graduating” — receiving their Terrorist degrees — and about to attack U.S. troops when the U.S. killed them.

With that boilerplate set of claims in place, huge numbers of people today who have absolutely no idea who was killed are certain that they all deserved it. As my colleague Murtaza Hussain said of the 150 dead people: “We don’t know who they are, but luckily they were all bad.” For mindless authoritarians, the words “terrorist” and “militant” have no meaning other than: anyone who dies when my government drops bombs, or, at best, a “terrorist” is anyone my government tells me is a terrorist. Watch how many people today are defending this strike by claiming “terrorists” and “militants” were killed using those definitions even though they have literally no idea who was killed.

Other than the higher-than-normal death toll, this mass killing is an incredibly common event under the presidency of the 2009 Nobel Peace laureate, who has so far bombed seven predominantly Muslim countries. As Nick Turse has reported in The Intercept, Obama has aggressively expanded the stealth drone program and secret war in Africa.

This particular mass killing is unlikely to get much attention in the U.S. due to (1) the election-season obsession with horse-race analysis and pressing matters such as the size of Donald Trump’s hands; (2) widespread Democratic indifference to the killing of foreigners where there’s no partisan advantage to be had against the GOP from pretending to care; (3) the invisibility of places like Somalia and the implicit devaluing of lives there; and (4) the complete normalization of the model whereby the U.S. president kills whomever he wants, wherever he wants, without regard for any semblance of law, process, accountability, or evidence.

The lack of attention notwithstanding, there are several important points highlighted by yesterday’s bombing and the reaction to it:

1) The U.S. is not at war in Somalia. Congress has never declared war on Somalia, nor has it authorized the use of military force there. Morality and ethics to the side for the moment: What legal authority does Obama even possess to bomb this country? I assume we can all agree that presidents shouldn’t be permitted to just go around killing people they suspect are “bad”: they need some type of legal authority to do the killing.

Since 2001, the U.S. government has legally justified its we-bomb-wherever-we-want approach by pointing to the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF), enacted by Congress in the wake of 9/11 to authorize the targeting of al Qaeda and “affiliated” forces. But al Shabaab did not exist in 2001 and had nothing to do with 9/11. Indeed, the group has not tried to attack the U.S. but instead, as the New York Times’ Charlie Savage noted in 2011, “is focused on a parochial insurgency in Somalia.” As a result, reported Savage, even “the [Obama] administration does not consider the United States to be at war with every member of the Shabaab.”

Instead, in the Obama administration’s view, specific senior members of al Shabaab can be treated as enemy combatants under the AUMF only if they adhere to al Qaeda’s ideology, are “integrated” into its command structure, and could conduct operations outside of Somalia. That’s why the U.S. government yesterday claimed that all the people it killed were about to launch attacks on U.S. soldiers: because, even under its own incredibly expansive view of the AUMF, it would be illegal to kill them merely on the ground that they were all members of al Shabaab, and the government thus needs a claim of “self-defense” to legally justify this.

But even under the “self-defense” theory that the U.S. government invoked, it is allowed — under its own policies promulgated in 2013 — to use lethal force away from an active war zone (e.g., Afghanistan) “only against a target that poses a continuing, imminent threat to U.S. persons.” Perhaps these Terrorists were about to imminently attack U.S. troops stationed in the region — immediately after the tassel on their graduation cap was turned at the “graduation ceremony,” they were going on the attack — but again, there is literally no evidence that any of that is true.

Given what’s at stake — namely, the conclusion that Obama’s killing of 150 people yesterday was illegal — shouldn’t we be demanding to see evidence that the assertions of his government are actually true? Were these really all al Shabaab fighters and terrorists who were killed? Were they really about to carry out some sort of imminent, dangerous attack on U.S. personnel? Why would anyone be content to blindly believe the self-serving assertions of the U.S. government on these questions without seeing evidence? If you are willing to make excuses for why you don’t want to see any evidence, why would you possibly think you know what happened here — who was killed and under what circumstances — if all you have are conclusory, evidence-free assertions from those who carried out the killings?

2) There are numerous compelling reasons demanding skepticism of U.S. government claims about who it kills in airstrikes. To begin with, the Obama administration has formally re-defined the term “militant” to mean: “all military-age males in a strike zone” unless “there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.” In other words, the U.S. government presumptively regards all adult males it kills as “militants” unless evidence emerges that they were not. It’s an empty, manipulative term of propaganda and nothing else.

Beyond that, the U.S. government’s own documents prove that in the vast majority of cases — 9 out of 10 in fact — it is killing people other than its intended targets. Last April, the New York Times published an article under the headline “Drone Strikes Reveal Uncomfortable Truth: U.S. Is Often Unsure About Who Will Die.” It quoted the scholar Micah Zenko saying, “Most individuals killed are not on a kill list, and the government does not know their names.”

https://prod01-cdn07.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2016/03/nytdrones-540x276.png

Moreover, the U.S. government has repeatedly been caught lying about the identity of its bombings victims. As that April NYT article put it, “Every independent investigation of the strikes has found far more civilian casualties than administration officials admit.”

Given that clear record of deliberate deceit, why would any rational person blindly swallow evidence-free assertions from the U.S. government about who it is killing? To put it mildly, extreme skepticism is warranted (after being criticized for its stenography, the final New York Times story yesterday at least included this phrase about the Pentagon’s claims about who it killed: “There was no independent way to verify the claim”).

3) Why does the U.S. have troops stationed in this part of Africa? Remember, even the Obama administration says it is not at war with al Shabaab.

Consider how circular this entire rationale is: The U.S., like all countries, obviously has a legitimate interest in protecting its troops from attack. But why does it have troops there at all in need of protection? The answer: The troops are there to operate drone bases and attack people they regard as a threat to them. But if they weren’t there in the first place, these groups could not pose a threat to them.

In sum: We need U.S. troops in Africa to launch drone strikes at groups that are trying to attack U.S. troops in Africa. It’s the ultimate self-perpetuating circle of imperialism: We need to deploy troops to other countries in order to attack those who are trying to kill U.S. troops who are deployed there.

4) If you’re an American who has lived under the war on terror, it’s easy to forget how extreme this behavior is. Most countries on the planet don’t routinely run around dropping bombs and killing dozens of people in multiple other countries at once, let alone do so in countries where they’re not at war.

But for Americans, this is now all perfectly normalized. We just view our president as vested with the intrinsic, divine right, grounded in American exceptionalism, to deem whomever he wants “Bad Guys” and then — with no trial, no process, no accountability — order them killed. He’s the roving, Global Judge, Jury, and Executioner. And we see nothing disturbing or dangerous or even odd about that. We’ve been inculcated to view the world the way a 6-year-old watches cartoons: Bad Guys should be killed, and that’s the end of the story.

...CONTINUED

So the President kills 150 people whose identity we do not know in a country where there is no declared war and the country collectively shrugs its shoulders. After all, the government says they were terrorists, so it must be true.

Yet if Trump merely talks about the legally dubious killings of people, then people lose their minds.

There is something very strange about how this country views death and the rule of law. There is a serious lack of consistency here.

Peter1469
03-08-2016, 07:07 PM
Probably a violation of the international laws of war. But such things are ignored during the "war on terror."

Ethereal
03-08-2016, 07:22 PM
Probably a violation of the international laws of war. But such things are ignored during the "war on terror."

As well as our own domestic laws.

Mac-7
03-08-2016, 07:37 PM
So the President kills 150 people whose identity we do not know in a country where there is no declared war and the country collectively shrugs its shoulders. After all, the government says they were terrorists, so it must be true.

Yet if Trump merely talks about the legally dubious killings of people, then people lose their minds.

There is something very strange about how this country views death and the rule of law. There is a serious lack of consistency here.

Arent you an open borders guy and a stickler for privacy and civil liberties?

You're right I dont know how many were terrorists

And I dont care how many non-combat somalis die in order to reach the terrorists who hide among them

Thats war.

Ethereal
03-08-2016, 07:40 PM
Arent you an open borders guy and a stickler for privacy and civil liberties?

Not sure how that's relevant.


You're right I dont know how many were terrorists

And I dont care how many non-combat somalis die in order to reach the terrorists who hide among them

Thats war.

Except there is no declared war in Somalia.

Mac-7
03-08-2016, 07:42 PM
Not sure how that's relevant.



Except there is no declared war in Somalia.

We have not declared war since WWII.

Ethereal
03-08-2016, 07:50 PM
We have not declared war since WWII.

I'm not sure why you think that. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were all expressly authorized by the US Congress. No such authorization exists in regards to Somalia. Obama just decided, on his own, to make war there. Do you support Obama making war wherever he wants without any kind of authorization from the US Congress?

JDubya
03-08-2016, 07:57 PM
Geez. Some people will look for anything to piss their panties about.

Especially when Obama had something to do with it.

I'd bet anything they knew for near certain or better that those people were terrorists in training.

Aamof, they were holding some sort of graduation ceremony.

Good riddance to them and good job, Mr President.

Ethereal
03-08-2016, 08:00 PM
Geez. Some people will look for anything to piss their panties about.

Especially when Obama had something to do with it.

I'd bet anything they knew for near certain or better that those people were terrorists in training.

Aamof, they were holding some sort of graduation ceremony.

Good riddance to them and good job, Mr President.

Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. Without evidence, there is no way to know.

Private Pickle
03-08-2016, 08:02 PM
Hmmm...

Maybe we were trying to kill 150 mimes from the Libyan National School of Mimes (LMSM)...

Or perhaps we were just carrying out a major airstrike on a large contingent of annoying Hare Krishnas...

So while I'm the first to raise my eyebrow at the actions of our government I have trouble stretching theories until I've convinced myself that these guys weren't actually Al-Shabaab fighters rather Bernie Sanders supporters who had the dirty dirt on Hilary Clinton and the real reason she "bow wow'd".

Private Pickle
03-08-2016, 08:04 PM
I'm not sure why you think that. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan were all expressly authorized by the US Congress. No such authorization exists in regards to Somalia. Obama just decided, on his own, to make war there. Do you support Obama making war wherever he wants without any kind of authorization from the US Congress?

A formal declaration of war is much different than a military engagement that has been authorized by Congress.

Mac is correct in that we have not formally declared war since WWII.

MisterVeritis
03-08-2016, 08:22 PM
A formal declaration of war is much different than a military engagement that has been authorized by Congress.

Mac is correct in that we have not formally declared war since WWII.
Can you show me the template for a "formal" declaration of war, please?

Peter1469
03-08-2016, 08:34 PM
We have not declared war since WWII.

Since WWII we have used Authorizations for the US of Military Force. Bush made a big deal about them.

Beevee
03-08-2016, 08:39 PM
Arent you an open borders guy and a stickler for privacy and civil liberties?

You're right I dont know how many were terrorists

And I dont care how many non-combat somalis die in order to reach the terrorists who hide among them

Thats war.

That's what Hitler said. He didn't care either.

Mister D
03-08-2016, 08:42 PM
That's what Hitler said. He didn't care either.

Neither did Cromwell, Sherman and a host of others.

SemiteArt
03-08-2016, 08:49 PM
Even if be sure 149 of them are terrorists and 1 of them is civilian, you cant bomb them randomly. You have to try to save the civilian first.

Ethereal
03-08-2016, 09:53 PM
Hmmm...

Maybe we were trying to kill 150 mimes from the Libyan National School of Mimes (LMSM)...

Or perhaps we were just carrying out a major airstrike on a large contingent of annoying Hare Krishnas...

So while I'm the first to raise my eyebrow at the actions of our government I have trouble stretching theories until I've convinced myself that these guys weren't actually Al-Shabaab fighters rather Bernie Sanders supporters who had the dirty dirt on Hilary Clinton and the real reason she "bow wow'd".

Is it too much to ask the government for evidence of their claims in this day and age? Or should we just assume they are telling the truth and dispense with evidence altogether?

Ethereal
03-08-2016, 09:56 PM
A formal declaration of war is much different than a military engagement that has been authorized by Congress.

Mac is correct in that we have not formally declared war since WWII.

If the US Congress expressly authorizes the use of military force in a country like Iraq or Afghanistan, how is that fundamentally different than a "formal declaration of war"?

And you would at least agree that in order to engage in military action, the federal government requires Congressional approval, yes?

JDubya
03-08-2016, 10:43 PM
Too funny.

Obama kills 150 terrorists before they were even able to set foot outside the gates of Camp LeBoom and all the wing nuts do is complain.


Seriously dudes.... get a hobby.

Mac-7
03-09-2016, 05:41 AM
That's what Hitler said. He didn't care either.

so did Churchill and FDR when they bombed Berlin and Tokyo.

There has never been a blood free war that I am aware of.

Peter1469
03-09-2016, 05:47 AM
Even if be sure 149 of them are terrorists and 1 of them is civilian, you cant bomb them randomly. You have to try to save the civilian first.

That is not legally true. Politically it often is.

Civilians are protected people under the international laws of war. Just as schools, churches, etc are protected places. However, if an enemy uses those places and people for military purposes they lose their protected status.

There is also a 4 part test to go through for targeting purposes to determine legality.

But civilians are be legally killed in war. Under international law war is war in fact. Not war in law. So the lack of a US declaration of war is not material to international law.

Politics is a different story. Killing civilians look bad.

Mac-7
03-09-2016, 05:48 AM
Too funny.

Obama kills 150 terrorists before they were even able to set foot outside the gates of Camp LeBoom and all the wing nuts do is complain.


Seriously dudes.... get a hobby.

The only person I see complaining is a libertarian and a left-leaning newbe who seems to have learned his English in a mosque somewhere in Islamistan.

If obumer wants to kill his cousins when they are in africa instead of giving them refugee status and bringing them here so they can kill us I wont complain.

SemiteArt
03-09-2016, 06:51 AM
That is not legally true. Politically it often is.

Civilians are protected people under the international laws of war. Just as schools, churches, etc are protected places. However, if an enemy uses those places and people for military purposes they lose their protected status.

There is also a 4 part test to go through for targeting purposes to determine legality.

But civilians are be legally killed in war. Under international law war is war in fact. Not war in law. So the lack of a US declaration of war is not material to international law.

Politics is a different story. Killing civilians look bad.

This is not a "war" Peter. You are helding counter terrorism operations in someone's country. You are not figthing Russia. You are not figthin China. Stop calling it "war". You have to perform ground operation with your anti terror teams and I dont care how many of your guys dies, you cant kill a civilian.

JDubya
03-09-2016, 08:21 AM
This is not a "war" Peter. You are helding counter terrorism operations in someone's country. You are not figthing Russia. You are not figthin China. Stop calling it "war". You have to perform ground operation with your anti terror teams and I dont care how many of your guys dies, you cant kill a civilian.

Now prove that even one of those Somalis was a civilian.

Otherwise, you have no case to make.

SemiteArt
03-09-2016, 08:45 AM
Now prove that even one of those Somalis was a civilian.

Otherwise, you have no case to make.

I dont have to prove anything. You have to prove they were terrorists. According to the source, you bombed people randomly who were "considered" of being "terrorist". You bomb a crowd which you are not sure who they were exactly. This is real terrorism. You are the real terrorist.

Private Pickle
03-09-2016, 08:51 AM
Can you show me the template for a "formal" declaration of war, please?

Do your own homework. This will get you started.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war

Private Pickle
03-09-2016, 08:55 AM
Is it too much to ask the government for evidence of their claims in this day and age? Or should we just assume they are telling the truth and dispense with evidence altogether?

You want DNA? Body parts? Classified material?

Private Pickle
03-09-2016, 08:56 AM
If the US Congress expressly authorizes the use of military force in a country like Iraq or Afghanistan, how is that fundamentally different than a "formal declaration of war"?

And you would at least agree that in order to engage in military action, the federal government requires Congressional approval, yes?

I linked the differences and mentioned military engagements authorized by Congress.

Private Pickle
03-09-2016, 09:30 AM
If the US Congress expressly authorizes the use of military force in a country like Iraq or Afghanistan, how is that fundamentally different than a "formal declaration of war"?

And you would at least agree that in order to engage in military action, the federal government requires Congressional approval, yes?

A formal declaration of war also requires congressional oversight during the war...

Here is a good article on the differences...

http://www.tommullen.net/featured/whats-so-important-about-a-declaration-of-war/

Peter1469
03-09-2016, 03:48 PM
This is not a "war" Peter. You are helding counter terrorism operations in someone's country. You are not figthing Russia. You are not figthin China. Stop calling it "war". You have to perform ground operation with your anti terror teams and I dont care how many of your guys dies, you cant kill a civilian.

Incorrect.

If militants put a motor tube in a school yard it can be targeted. Kids may be collateral damage, but it isn't illegal. Oh, except for the militants- they broke international law by putting the motor tube there.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:10 PM
Too funny.

Obama kills 150 terrorists before they were even able to set foot outside the gates of Camp LeBoom and all the wing nuts do is complain.


Seriously dudes.... get a hobby.

I guess asking for EVIDENCE is somewhat of an antiquated notion among certain groups...

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:11 PM
That is not legally true. Politically it often is.

Civilians are protected people under the international laws of war. Just as schools, churches, etc are protected places. However, if an enemy uses those places and people for military purposes they lose their protected status.

There is also a 4 part test to go through for targeting purposes to determine legality.

But civilians are be legally killed in war. Under international law war is war in fact. Not war in law. So the lack of a US declaration of war is not material to international law.

Politics is a different story. Killing civilians look bad.

I love how civilians can lose their protected status as a result of what someone else does.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:12 PM
The only person I see complaining is a libertarian and a left-leaning newbe who seems to have learned his English in a mosque somewhere in Islamistan.

If obumer wants to kill his cousins when they are in africa instead of giving them refugee status and bringing them here so they can kill us I wont complain.

I'm sure Jesus would approve of your sentiment.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:13 PM
Now prove that even one of those Somalis was a civilian.

Otherwise, you have no case to make.

Now you expect people to prove their innocence instead of the other way around. I'm wondering what separates you from the "terrorists" you claim to be fighting.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:15 PM
You want DNA? Body parts? Classified material?

I want evidence. Any kind of evidence will do. I don't want to live in a world where governments can just kill people in secret with no evidence and claim they were "terrorists". That is outrageous.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:19 PM
I linked the differences and mentioned military engagements authorized by Congress.

I read through the link and I don't see how it's fundamentally any different to "declare a state of war" or to "authorize the use of military force". Seems like a purely semantic distinction. In any case, the Constitution still requires some form of Congressional authorization in order to wage wars, yet there has been no such authorization in regards to Somalia. Are you of the opinion that the US government has the legal authority to use military force without Congressional authorization?

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:22 PM
A formal declaration of war also requires congressional oversight during the war...

Here is a good article on the differences...

http://www.tommullen.net/featured/whats-so-important-about-a-declaration-of-war/

That's a good explanation, but it doesn't validate the drone strike in Somalia in any way. If anything, it clearly explains how such a strike is brazenly illegal.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:23 PM
Incorrect.

If militants put a motor tube in a school yard it can be targeted. Kids may be collateral damage, but it isn't illegal. Oh, except for the militants- they broke international law by putting the motor tube there.

Well, as long as killing innocent children isn't illegal, then what's the problem?

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:26 PM
so did Churchill and FDR when they bombed Berlin and Tokyo.

There has never been a blood free war that I am aware of.

What war? There has been no declaration or authorization in regards to Somalia. Are you another one of those "conservatives" who only follows the law when it's convenient?

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 05:28 PM
The only person I see complaining is a libertarian and a left-leaning newbe who seems to have learned his English in a mosque somewhere in Islamistan.

If obumer wants to kill his cousins when they are in africa instead of giving them refugee status and bringing them here so they can kill us I wont complain.

Of course you won't complain. These are Muslims and brown people, so they are basically non-humans in the eyes of most Americans. Whether they're innocent or guilty is of no concern to you.

SemiteArt
03-10-2016, 06:23 PM
Incorrect.

If militants put a motor tube in a school yard it can be targeted. Kids may be collateral damage, but it isn't illegal. Oh, except for the militants- they broke international law by putting the motor tube there.


Peter, stop lying. Your claim is contrary to logic, show me the law, I dont think there is such a law that you can randomly shot anywhere just because some maniacs place a bomb assembly or guns or whatever they do. This is not the problem of civilian people, this is not their fault. This is a cheap way to cover your crimes. Those who are responsible of the murder of civilians should be on trial at war crimes tribunal. But the problem is currently there is no such a power to judge them, they continue to terrorism everyday under the pretext of figthing terrorism.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 08:01 PM
Peter, stop lying.

My, what an ironic statement.


Your claim is contrary to logic, show me the law, I dont think there is such a law that you can randomly shot anywhere just because some maniacs place a bomb assembly or guns or whatever they do. This is not the problem of civilian people, this is not their fault. This is a cheap way to cover your crimes. Those who are responsible of the murder of civilians should be on trial at war crimes tribunal. But the problem is currently there is no such a power to judge them, they continue to terrorism everyday under the pretext of figthing terrorism.

Coming from someone who supports the massacre of Kurdish people and the facilitation of ISIS terrorism, this is really cute.

MisterVeritis
03-10-2016, 08:14 PM
Peter, stop lying. Your claim is contrary to logic, show me the law, I dont think there is such a law that you can randomly shot anywhere just because some maniacs place a bomb assembly or guns or whatever they do. This is not the problem of civilian people, this is not their fault. This is a cheap way to cover your crimes. Those who are responsible of the murder of civilians should be on trial at war crimes tribunal. But the problem is currently there is no such a power to judge them, they continue to terrorism everyday under the pretext of figthing terrorism.
The laws of land warfare I learned support Peter's position. If there is a military necessity then the attack is legitimate. There is nothing random about an attack that destroys a mortar and its crew. The crew is breaking the law in putting its tube in a place where there are civilians. I agree, that if they are captured, instead of killed, the mortar crew should face a military tribunal for war crimes and be executed.

There are many historical examples one might choose from.

Should a president be allowed to kill another nation's civilians when we have no declared war against that nation? My first thought is to say no. But I pause when I consider that Islamofascism has spread to nearly every nation. Should Islamofascists have a sanctuary because we have not declared war on a country they are hiding in?

Private Pickle
03-10-2016, 08:22 PM
That's a good explanation, but it doesn't validate the drone strike in Somalia in any way. If anything, it clearly explains how such a strike is brazenly illegal.

Yeah I am having trouble finding the sympathy. The global community would be up in arms right now if they were something other than what they are being named.

Peter1469
03-10-2016, 08:24 PM
I love how civilians can lose their protected status as a result of what someone else does.

It sucks. But there is no other real option. Otherwise you have bad guys using civilians as shields and they can't be touched.

MisterVeritis
03-10-2016, 08:26 PM
I love how civilians can lose their protected status as a result of what someone else does.
It is a horrible thing when the innocent are killed along with the combatants. Commanders can choose. When you are taking fires from a place normally protected military necessity trumps the possible deaths of civilians.

Peter1469
03-10-2016, 08:43 PM
Peter, stop lying. Your claim is contrary to logic, show me the law, I dont think there is such a law that you can randomly shot anywhere just because some maniacs place a bomb assembly or guns or whatever they do. This is not the problem of civilian people, this is not their fault. This is a cheap way to cover your crimes. Those who are responsible of the murder of civilians should be on trial at war crimes tribunal. But the problem is currently there is no such a power to judge them, they continue to terrorism everyday under the pretext of figthing terrorism.

From the International Red Cross:

Rule 6. Civilians’ Loss of Protection from Attack (https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule6)

I am an Army JAG. You would be better served to listen than attack me.

Ethereal
03-10-2016, 09:40 PM
The entire reason why we have SWAT teams in America is so that they can avoid killing civilians in dynamic situations. That is why I support using special operations on the ground where and when there is a legitimate military target. They are far more precise than just dropping bombs from the sky. A Navy SEAL can much more easily differentiate between a military target and a civilian than a drone operator. Does that mean they will never kill an innocent civilian? Probably not. But will it reduce the amount of innocent civilians who die as a result of our military operations? Absolutely.

SemiteArt
03-11-2016, 07:00 AM
From the International Red Cross:

Rule 6. Civilians’ Loss of Protection from Attack (https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule6)

I am an Army JAG. You would be better served to listen than attack me.

Did you read your own source before copying it here ? It says "civilians cannot be targeted as long as they take a direct part in hostilities."

Peter1469
03-11-2016, 08:16 AM
Did you read your own source before copying it here ? It says "civilians cannot be targeted as long as they take a direct part in hostilities."

I read it. They are incorrect.

I told you what international law says. Go with that.

SemiteArt
03-11-2016, 08:38 AM
I read it. They are incorrect.

I told you what international law says. Go with that.

Peter, are you trolling me ? This is the link you gave me after I was asked for a source of your claim. Now you say its wrong and there are international laws that support your claim. Why are you lying Peter ?

Peter1469
03-11-2016, 08:52 AM
Peter, are you trolling me ? This is the link you gave me after I was asked for a source of your claim. Now you say its wrong and there are international laws that support your claim. Why are you lying Peter ?

Incorrect.

SemiteArt
03-11-2016, 08:57 AM
Incorrect.

Marine

Peter1469
03-11-2016, 09:07 AM
Marine

Army dude. Get it right. :wink:

Crepitus
03-11-2016, 09:52 AM
Hmmm...

Maybe we were trying to kill 150 mimes from the Libyan National School of Mimes (LMSM)...

Or perhaps we were just carrying out a major airstrike on a large contingent of annoying Hare Krishnas...

So while I'm the first to raise my eyebrow at the actions of our government I have trouble stretching theories until I've convinced myself that these guys weren't actually Al-Shabaab fighters rather Bernie Sanders supporters who had the dirty dirt on Hilary Clinton and the real reason she "bow wow'd".
Gosh I hope so!

Those guys creep me out!

Crepitus
03-11-2016, 09:54 AM
That's what Hitler said. He didn't care either.
14324

in only 14 posts! That's pretty impressive.

Crepitus
03-11-2016, 09:55 AM
Even if be sure 149 of them are terrorists and 1 of them is civilian, you cant bomb them randomly. You have to try to save the civilian first.
Nah, that's called "collateral damage" and we don't care.

Especially if the civilian ain't ours.

Crepitus
03-11-2016, 09:57 AM
This is not a "war" Peter. You are helding counter terrorism operations in someone's country. You are not figthing Russia. You are not figthin China. Stop calling it "war". You have to perform ground operation with your anti terror teams and I dont care how many of your guys dies, you cant kill a civilian.
Um yes it is and yes we can.

Crepitus
03-11-2016, 10:01 AM
Did you read your own source before copying it here ? It says "civilians cannot be targeted as long as they take a direct part in hostilities."
In the case Pete described the civilians are not being targeted, the mortar crew is.