Economy causing extreme behaviour?

[Adelaide]

Godwin's law, also sometimes known as the Hitler rule, states that eventually, all protracted arguments, especially on the internet, end up with the introduction of an analogy to Hitler and Nazi Germany — the ultimate sign that they have gone too far....

Interfactional violence that forced the cancellation of a Trump rally in Chicago on Friday night was certainly a worrying sign that something is happening outside of what we think of as the run-of-the-mill American electoral process.

Photographs of a woman wearing a Trump T-shirt giving an unmistakable Nazi raised-arm salute have only increased the tension. Her confusing explanation (http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/03/12/trump-supporter-who-made-nazi-salute-explains-why-she-made-the-gesture/?_r=0) cannot remove the visceral impact of that image, something bound to further polarize an election marked by clashing ideologies.

There had already been comparisons, even in the most credible of media, between Donald Trump and the Nazis, but the details of the Republican front-runner's anti-Muslim views (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/donald-trump-ad-muslim-ban-1.3389107) and wild statements labelling immigrants rapists (http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/donald-trump-s-derogatory-comments-on-mexicans-prompts-nbc-to-cut-ties-1.3132226) are only incidental to a much more important phenomenon that includes Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, too.

Why we have to talk about Hitler when we discuss Trump and Sanders - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-sanders-hitler-1.3485338)

Before anyone freaks out about a Canadian news agency making the comparison, read the article in it's entirety. I can only post so much but the article explains how economic hard times and "new or weak" democracy are linked to political polarism, provides background on Germany and how it relates to the US and doesn't just call Trump Hitler - it actually sort of blames both sides. And it actually makes sense.

[Quicksilver]

Is Canada just noticing that we have a bat-$hit crazy factor of the Republican party?

Everyone take heart though... only 1/4th of registered Republicans actually vote in Primaries... So while it may look like the vast majority of Republicans are crazy as hell, it's really only a small percentage. Trump will never win the General election after all his shenanigans. I don't even think he would be able to pivot left far enough to do so.. Welcome President Clinton in January.

[Adelaide]

Is Canada just noticing that we have a bat-$hit crazy factor of the Republican party?

Everyone take heart though... only 1/4th of registered Republicans actually vote in Primaries... So while it may look like the vast majority of Republicans are crazy as hell, it's really only a small percentage. Trump will never win the General election after all his shenanigans. I don't even think he would be able to pivot left far enough to do so.. Welcome President Clinton in January.

It's important to note the article isn't just about the Republicans or Trump - they group Sanders in with the polarization.

[bajisima]

I happen to agree with the article. Its always in times of true economic distress that we see uprisings like this. I also fault some aspects of the govt and our professionals for not being open like when they come out and say "the economy is on a roll and doing great!" Well sure for the stock market, but when you consider minority unemployment and the debt that our under 30 crowd has it isn't so great. For many rural areas it isn't either and the amount of small stores and towns in trouble is quite high. We can blame it on decades of policies that allow some to have so much money and others with none. When we hear that things like getting better healthcare or closing loopholes for the very rich is too "pie in the sky" and we just cant do it, its no wonder people feel intense anger and frustration.

[Adelaide]

I happen to agree with the article. Its always in times of true economic distress that we see uprisings like this. I also fault some aspects of the govt and our professionals for not being open like when they come out and say "the economy is on a roll and doing great!" Well sure for the stock market, but when you consider minority unemployment and the debt that our under 30 crowd has it isn't so great. For many rural areas it isn't either and the amount of small stores and towns in trouble is quite high. We can blame it on decades of policies that allow some to have so much money and others with none. When we hear that things like getting better healthcare or closing loopholes for the very rich is too "pie in the sky" and we just cant do it, its no wonder people feel intense anger and frustration.

Not to mention the complete collapse of confidence in government/the system. Congress approval ratings tanked years ago, the President's approval rating isn't great, and people simply don't trust the "establishment". That mistrust is what is really driving campaigns like Trump's. The article brings up that countries are at risk of the rise of political parties like the Nazis when they experience economic problems or the democracy is "weak or new". Is democracy "weak" in the US right now? I would say it is. People don't feel represented. They don't trust the people meant to represent them.

[Chris]

Some key points:


...While the duly elected government struggled to get the economy back on track, mainstream leaders were increasingly seen as helpless or indecisive or merely perpetuating the unacceptable status quo.

...A large group, probably a majority, of Americans are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs. America is not the power it once was. Americans used to be rich, with good working-class jobs and a robust middle class.

American voters want those days back, but voting for traditional leaders has not done the trick, because with the best will in the world, there is no easy solution....

I think that's very true. Americans are generally dissatisfied economically. Some say we're out of the Great Recession, I don't think so, some areas, yes, but many areas, no, and may never recover. This is exacerbated by what I see as an increasing dependence of Americans on the government to solve all their problems, they become dissatisfied with the existing establishment and seek outsiders, not outsiders who might get them back to self-reliance, but outsiders who promise a government that will solve all their problems, make them happy, make them winners. Thus the populism of Trump and Sanders. And the clash and violence.

Remember the violent protests in Wisconsin in 2011? Precursor.

[bajisima]

Not to mention the complete collapse of confidence in government/the system. Congress approval ratings tanked years ago, the President's approval rating isn't great, and people simply don't trust the "establishment". That mistrust is what is really driving campaigns like Trump's. The article brings up that countries are at risk of the rise of political parties like the Nazis when they experience economic problems or the democracy is "weak or new". Is democracy "weak" in the US right now? I would say it is. People don't feel represented. They don't trust the people meant to represent them.


Exactly and people feel Trump and Sanders speaks to them not just at them. Its like they are deaf to the rhetoric and rants and don't care.

[Quicksilver]

It's important to note the article isn't just about the Republicans or Trump - they group Sanders in with the polarization.

I realize that... However Sanders supporters place the blame where it belongs.. Unfair trade practices, unlimited money in politics forcing legislation favoring the top 1% and the shifting of money from the middle class to the top. Trump supporters, on the other hand, blame immigrants and Muslims. Oh.... and of course President Obama. That goes without saying.

[Mac-7]

Why we have to talk about Hitler when we discuss Trump and Sanders - CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trump-sanders-hitler-1.3485338)

Before anyone freaks out about a Canadian news agency making the comparison, read the article in it's entirety. I can only post so much but the article explains how economic hard times and "new or weak" democracy are linked to political polarism, provides background on Germany and how it relates to the US and doesn't just call Trump Hitler - it actually sort of blames both sides. And it actually makes sense.

I tried to follow your screed entirely.

When I clicked on the link about mexican rapists I expected to see actual trump quotes to consider.

But instead there were only characterizations by liberals telling me that trump said bad things.

Shame on you and the liberal canadian news media.

[bajisima]

I realize that... However Sanders supporters place the blame where it belongs.. Unfair trade practices, unlimited money in politics forcing legislation favoring the top 1% and the shifting of money from the middle class to the top. Trump supporters, on the other hand, blame immigrants and Muslims. Oh.... and of course President Obama. That goes without saying.

Trump goes on and on about trade all the time. He says we got to get rid of all trade agreements and institute tariffs. They hear what they want to. I heard him say months ago about Oreos going to Mexico and Ford going to Mexico, then like a gift, Carrier announced 1400 layoffs as they go to Mexico. Those people don't care about the economics of it, they just know their job is gone to Mexico like Trump and Sanders said it would.

[Mac-7]

Those people don't care about the economics of it, they just know their job is gone to Mexico like Trump and Sanders said it would.

That is the economics of it.

America will stop being a great county if Ameticans do not have jobs

[Chris]

Trump and Sanders are both wrong on trade.

[bajisima]

Trump and Sanders are both wrong on trade.

Possibly, I am not an economist, but for most blue collared Americans, they understand "wallet politics". Their jobs are gone to Mexico or China. We have entire towns still to this day in New England, the Midwest and Appalachia where the jobs left. They don't care how, all they know is the establishment class watched them go and did nothing.

[Chris]

Possibly, I am not an economist, but for most blue collared Americans, they understand "wallet politics". Their jobs are gone to Mexico or China. We have entire towns still to this day in New England, the Midwest and Appalachia where the jobs left. They don't care how, all they know is the establishment class watched them go and did nothing.

Right, they're both populists appealing to the little guy against the big guy. Trade, however, generates wealth that drives innovation that drives new jobs here. Protectionist policies are paid for by American consumers.

[Mac-7]

Possibly, I am not an economist, but for most blue collared Americans, they understand "wallet politics". Their jobs are gone to Mexico or China. We have entire towns still to this day in New England, the Midwest and Appalachia where the jobs left. They don't care how, all they know is the establishment class watched them go and did nothing.

Who cares about Americans wearing blue collars?

certainly not free traders on this forum and the washington establishment

[Mac-7]

Trade, however, generates wealth that drives innovation that drives new jobs here.

If that were true the middle class would not be shrinking.

the only new jobs trade with china creates is in distribution warehouses.

Which would exist anyway whereever the stuff was made

[Chris]

If that were true the middle class would not be shrinking.

the only new jobs trade with china creates is in distribution warehouses.

Which would exist anyway whereever the stuff was made

Do you seriously think the only factor affecting the middle class is trade?


the only new jobs trade with china creates is in distribution warehouses

False. The money US consumers save purchasing Chinese products goes to purchasing other new products, or to savings invested in new products. Moreover, US dollars used to purchase Chinese goods are redeemable only in the US, to purchase US goods and services.

[Mac-7]

Do you seriously think the only factor affecting the middle class is trade?


trade is the primary cause.

When a factory in America closes and moves to mexico or china the American workers lose their jobs and many begin their fall from the middle class.



False. The money US consumers save purchasing Chinese products goes to purchasing other new products, or to savings invested in new products. Moreover, US dollars used to purchase Chinese goods are redeemable only in the US, to purchase US goods and services.


If that were true the US economy would be growing instead of remaining stagnate.

Yes your welfare/unemployment check goes farther at the Dollar Store carrying cheap chinese junk but thats false economy.

[Chris]

trade is the primary cause.

When a factory in America closes and moves to mexico or china the American workers lose their jobs and many begin their fall from the middle class.





If that were true the US economy would be growing instead of remaining stagnate.

Yes your welfare/unemployment check goes farther at the Dollar Store carrying cheap chinese junk but thats false economy.



You forget the Great Recession.


The economy is rising...

http://i.snag.gy/rbPlf.jpg

[Mac-7]

You forget the Great Recession.


The economy is rising...

http://i.snag.gy/rbPlf.jpg

Two percent growth for parttime service jobs cannot maintain the middle class standard of living for American workers

[Chris]

Two percent growth for parttime service jobs cannot maintain the middle class standard of living for American workers

But your economic model would predict decline.

http://i.snag.gy/uFhkE.jpg

Certainly since this trade imbalance has increased since 1985 then, according to your predictions, so to should we see increased decline to the point the US economy would have collapsed. But we don't see that at all.

[Mac-7]

But your economic model would predict decline.

http://i.snag.gy/uFhkE.jpg

Certainly since this trade imbalance has increased since 1985 then, according to your predictions, so to should we see increased decline to the point the US economy would have collapsed. But we don't see that at all.

The government is pouring trillions into the economy with borrowed money.

We will stay afloat for a while but as the national debt rises sooner or later it will catch up with us.

[Polecat]

Governments around the globe are intentionally being destabilized to whip people into hysteria. There is little time left.

[Chris]

The government is pouring trillions into the economy with borrowed money.

We will stay afloat for a while but as the national debt rises sooner or later it will catch up with us.


Now there's a problem, government solutions.

[Peter1469]

In bad times, real or perceived, there is more conflict between groups. The US is clearly not a homogeneous society.

[Tahuyaman]

Is Canada just noticing that we have a bat-$hit crazy factor of the Republican party?
.

The point the OP made went right over your head.

[Adelaide]

Exactly and people feel Trump and Sanders speaks to them not just at them. Its like they are deaf to the rhetoric and rants and don't care.

That definitely seems to be the case. I have been surprised by Sanders because a lot of his promises are completely unrealistic, which you think would turn voters off, but I think his rhetoric about specific issues where he's an an outsider and not "establishment" sort of make people forget the crazy stuff he is promising and support him. With Trump, people seem willing to ignore the hateful rhetoric. The interesting thing about about the OP is that it takes into account both sides, both extremes and asks could this be caused by economic problems and issues related to the strength of US democracy?

[MisterVeritis]

With Trump, people seem willing to ignore the hateful rhetoric. The interesting thing about about the OP is that it takes into account both sides, both extremes and asks could this be caused by economic problems and issues related to the strength of US democracy?
There is nothing hateful about saving the country. Liberals! Can't live with 'em.

[bajisima]

That definitely seems to be the case. I have been surprised by Sanders because a lot of his promises are completely unrealistic, which you think would turn voters off, but I think his rhetoric about specific issues where he's an an outsider and not "establishment" sort of make people forget the crazy stuff he is promising and support him. With Trump, people seem willing to ignore the hateful rhetoric. The interesting thing about about the OP is that it takes into account both sides, both extremes and asks could this be caused by economic problems and issues related to the strength of US democracy?

I think it shows desperation and frustration. A lot of people wanted universal health care and things like affordable college. It hasn't happened. They also thought income inequality to lessen and yet all they see is a big stock market. It still leaves out a huge chunk of Americans. Take coal country for example, once a democratic stronghold. They have seen unbelievable poverty due to the loss of their jobs and way of life. They no longer trust democrats and many are voting for Trump as they don't trust establishment GOP either now. There are pockets of Appalachia all over the country.

[Polecat]

That definitely seems to be the case. I have been surprised by Sanders because a lot of his promises are completely unrealistic, which you think would turn voters off, but I think his rhetoric about specific issues where he's an an outsider and not "establishment" sort of make people forget the crazy stuff he is promising and support him. With Trump, people seem willing to ignore the hateful rhetoric. The interesting thing about about the OP is that it takes into account both sides, both extremes and asks could this be caused by economic problems and issues related to the strength of US democracy?

Who exactly has Trump declared he hates? He called for stopping the open flow of Muslims into our country as did Jimmy Carter. He called for the removal of illegal aliens from our country which is not only a law that is not being enforced but one that is enforced in every nation on this planet......including Canada! Call it hate speech and you have some foot to spit out.

[Mac-7]

That definitely seems to be the case. I have been surprised by Sanders because a lot of his promises are completely unrealistic, which you think would turn voters off, but I think his rhetoric about specific issues where he's an an outsider and not "establishment" sort of make people forget the crazy stuff he is promising and support him. With Trump, people seem willing to ignore the hateful rhetoric. The interesting thing about about the OP is that it takes into account both sides, both extremes and asks could this be caused by economic problems and issues related to the strength of US democracy?

Ordinary Americans are angry at many things imposed on them by the minority washington establishment.

That includes trade, immigration, gay marriage, affirmative action, obamacare and many other issues big and small.

Each time a liberal here sticks their nose in the air and calls us bigots or nativists or homophobes it gets worse.

[zelmo1234]

It's important to note the article isn't just about the Republicans or Trump - they group Sanders in with the polarization.

Certainly the Economy in the USA Sucks.

We know that we are in our 8th year of a Fire Sale and the wealthy are scooping up anything and everything that the middle class once could afford.

The establishment of both parties is responsible for our declining economy. The people, in this country understand That people like Clinton, Rubio, Kashic are lying when they talk about change. The people have had enough of 16 years of poor Government. People can Complain about Bill Clinton's presidency and he was not morally what one would like in a President but after his first 2 years, he returned to the economic policies of the Reagan years and people were living well. It has been all down hill from then.