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View Full Version : The Fight for $15 Is Unreasonable. That’s Why It’s Winning.



Peter1469
04-03-2016, 08:13 AM
Slate: The Fight for $15 Is Unreasonable. That’s Why It’s Winning (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/04/01/new_york_and_california_are_headed_for_a_15_minimu m_wage_here_s_why_the.html).

Surprising PoV for Slate. I think the guy is right- on a $15 min wage:


s is all this economically wise? Nobody really knows (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/03/27/california_lawmakers_agree_to_a_15_minimum_wage.ht ml) for sure, but I have my doubts (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/03/27/california_lawmakers_agree_to_a_15_minimum_wage.ht ml). Living in cities like Los Angeles and San Francisco is expensive largely because of their dysfunctional housing markets. Asking low-margin businesses to make up for insane rents by paying their workers more could simply result in more unemployment, especially for less-educated and young adults who tend to rely on minimum wage jobs. And it’s hard to think of a good reason why a business in, say, Yuba County, California—unemployment rate 15.8 percent—should pay its employees enough to rent in the Bay Area.

On the other hand, even California is being somewhat cautious. By the time the minimum reaches $15, it should be worth about $13 and change in today's dollars, thanks to inflation. States like New York and Oregon are using the wonk-approved model of raising wages higher or faster in rich cities than lower-income suburbs or rural areas, an idea that had little mainstream momentum before Fight for $15.



In some ways, that's all besides the point. Successful political movements aren’t typically built on careful econometric analysis, after all. Workers rallied around the idea of $15 an hour in 2012 because (http://fortune.com/2014/12/04/fast-food-workers-15-demand-how-aiming-high-launched-a-social-movement/) it sounded like a wage they could live on, and was marginally more realistic than $20. The Fight for $15 is rolling up victories precisely because it hasn’t been reasonable.

GrassrootsConservative
04-03-2016, 08:18 AM
Still living just fine off minimum wage here in Nebraska. Liberal states like CA and NY are just full of fiscally-irresponsible entitlement-mentality children.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 08:19 AM
Still living just fine off minimum wage here in Nebraska. Liberal states like CA and NY are just full of fiscally-irresponsible entitlement-mentality children.

Good to see you.

Minimum wage - if we must have it - ought to be tied to the cost of living.

GrassrootsConservative
04-03-2016, 08:22 AM
Good to see you.

Minimum wage - if we must have it - ought to be tied to the cost of living.

It is. I'm living just fine off it.

Not sure how some of the retards from my generation think they have a problem.

Also this year thanks to my employer (and not Obama) I have a slew of insurance (health, dental, vision, and life) at a very affordable cost to me.

/Edit: Good to see you too. I'm back and trying a new policy, the first shit post I see from a Liberal crackpot gets them put on my ignore list.

Zero tolerance for fools. They want to debate me properly, cool, they want to use logical fallacies and name calling and baiting and bullshit? Fuck them. Not going to let them make me upset anymore. They're not worth it.

Adelaide
04-03-2016, 08:28 AM
I'm surprised with how many people seem to support $15/hr minimum wage. It seems logical to me that if you raise minimum wage that much that jobs will be cut and products/services will rise in cost (making them less accessible to consumers).

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 08:33 AM
Other countries have minimum wage laws that only apply after a certain age, like $25. That allows younger people who likely live at home to get work experience and build a resume.

GrassrootsConservative
04-03-2016, 08:36 AM
Other countries have minimum wage laws that only apply after a certain age, like $25. That allows younger people who likely live at home to get work experience and build a resume.

I'd be fine with that. Let workers prove themselves. Let them prove that they are worth a higher wage. A 16 y/o flipping burgers at Micky Dee's isn't worth $15/hr.

Nor does he need it to "live."

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 08:39 AM
Minimum wage - if we must have it - ought to be tied to the cost of living.

My problem with mandating living wages is they can increase the cost of living. Catch 22.

Adelaide
04-03-2016, 08:42 AM
Other countries have minimum wage laws that only apply after a certain age, like $25. That allows younger people who likely live at home to get work experience and build a resume.

My dad has an interesting theory that a higher minimum wage should be given only to single parents and people over a certain age, meaning students and teenagers would still get the current minimum wage. I'm still not sure that it would work but I kind of like the idea of making an exception for single parents. That said, as soon as that kind of thing is implemented is when employers start discriminating against single parents and they won't have a job at all...

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 08:59 AM
My problem with mandating living wages is they can increase the cost of living. Catch 22.

I am not talking about the living wage meme. That is a socialist talking point.

It costs more to live in NYC that in Watertown, NY. If we will have a minimum wage they should not be the same in those two places. That makes zero sense.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 09:03 AM
My dad has an interesting theory that a higher minimum wage should be given only to single parents and people over a certain age, meaning students and teenagers would still get the current minimum wage. I'm still not sure that it would work but I kind of like the idea of making an exception for single parents. That said, as soon as that kind of thing is implemented is when employers start discriminating against single parents and they won't have a job at all...

The US uses the Earned Income Credit for the same affect.

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 09:06 AM
I am not talking about the living wage meme. That is a socialist talking point.

It costs more to live in NYC that in Watertown, NY. If we will have a minimum wage they should not be the same in those two places. That makes zero sense.

Your own OP makes the argument that it's selling because people think they can live on it. Living wage. They're wrong but the whole point of this thread is that it's unreasonable, isn't it?

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 09:08 AM
Your own OP makes the argument that it's selling because people think they can live on it. Living wage. They're wrong but the whole point of this thread is that it's unreasonable, isn't it?

Slate is leftist. The article has its position. I have mine. I clearly stated what I agreed with in the article. And then I clearly stated my position that if we have a minimum wage it should be set locally not nationally.

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 09:17 AM
Slate is leftist. The article has its position. I have mine. I clearly stated what I agreed with in the article. And then I clearly stated my position that if we have a minimum wage it should be set locally not nationally.

Which is why I'm confused by your response. COLAs are set locally and my point was that higher wages can contribute to increases in COLAs so even if you keep it local you can still have a vicious circle with housing costs being the primary culprit in my opinion.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 09:20 AM
Which is why I'm confused by your response. COLAs are set locally and my point was that higher wages can contribute to increases in COLAs so even if you keep it local you can still have a vicious circle with housing costs being the primary culprit in my opinion.

Not if they aren't too high. Ideally the concept of a minimum wage is only used to placate those who don't understand economics.

We don't really need minimum wages but too many demand them.

I may start putting * next to any link (*Linking to the article does not indicate that I agree with it 100% or endorse it).

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 09:31 AM
Not if they aren't too high. Ideally the concept of a minimum wage is only used to placate those who don't understand economics.

We don't really need minimum wages but too many demand them.

I may start putting * next to any link (*Linking to the article does not indicate that I agree with it 100% or endorse it).

I agree, setting minimum wages is a very bad idea. If your main objection was the idea of a state wide minimum wage you should have just said that in the OP, it's a good point, San Francisco is obviously much more expensive than Indio or Blythe but the people pushing for $15 already know that.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 09:50 AM
My main point was that I agreed with the author that a $15 min wage is not wise.

The rest of my comments were not based on the article that I cited.

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 10:13 AM
My main point was that I agreed with the author that a $15 min wage is not wise.

The rest of my comments were not based on the article that I cited.

I understand but I am basing comments off of your cited article. Whether you like the living wage meme or not it is being used to justify $15 per hour wage and it's a big part of the support for it. I also don't believe this will stop at just $15, it'll continue to increase so my point is we're seeing the government step in for the unions and I think that's bad for a lot of reasons economic and political. I don't want to Godwin the thread but this has been done before.

MisterVeritis
04-03-2016, 10:18 AM
This was never about entry level workers. Many union contracts tie wages to the minimum wage.

This will drive up costs (probably more than anyone thinks). Anyone on a fixed income will be greatly harmed. There well be far fewer entry-level jobs. Any business that can relocate will relocate. And we move another step closer to a full blown Marxist government.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 10:19 AM
I understand but I am basing comments off of your cited article. Whether you like the living wage meme or not it is being used to justify $15 per hour wage and it's a big part of the support for it. I also don't believe this will stop at just $15, it'll continue to increase so my point is we're seeing the government step in for the unions and I think that's bad for a lot of reasons economic and political. I don't want to Godwin the thread but this has been done before.

Up until recently the minimum wage has been kept largely at or below market wages so it was not really relevant in most areas. It only kept talking heads busy.

$15 an hour will be above the market in most places. The negative effects of its implication should temper the movement for some time.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 10:21 AM
This was never about entry level workers. Many union contracts tie wages to the minimum wage.

This will drive up costs (probably more than anyone thinks). Anyone on a fixed income will be greatly harmed. There well be far fewer entry-level jobs. Any business that can relocate will relocate. And we move another step closer to a full blown Marxist government.

It will also speed up automation. I only go to a McDonalds once or twice a year, but I think I would have a better experience with a robot than with the mouth breathers working there now.

Tahuyaman
04-03-2016, 10:24 AM
Here in the Seattle area one of the uber wealthy business owners who's a huge and vocal proponent of the $15.00 per hr. minimum wage only pays his employees $$7.50 per hr.

The local media refuses to challenge him on that hypocrisy.

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 10:28 AM
Here in the Seattle area one of the uber wealthy business owners who's a huge and vocal proponent of the $15.00 per hr. minimum wage only pays his employees $$7.50 per hr.

The local media refuses to challenge him on that hypocrisy.

He's paying below minimum and no one has said anything about it?

Tahuyaman
04-03-2016, 10:36 AM
He's paying below minimum and no one has said anything about it?

the media is silent.

donttread
04-03-2016, 10:44 AM
Slate: The Fight for $15 Is Unreasonable. That’s Why It’s Winning (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/04/01/new_york_and_california_are_headed_for_a_15_minimu m_wage_here_s_why_the.html).

Surprising PoV for Slate. I think the guy is right- on a $15 min wage:

For minimum wage to make sense, and it can, it has to be a localized as possible. For example where I live a 15.00 an hour minimum wage might kill jobs whereas in NYC it still wouldn't be enough to make minimum wage workers independent from the government. So if the state passes such a law they have failed both ends of the spectrum

Tahuyaman
04-03-2016, 10:46 AM
For minimum wage to make sense, and it can, it has to be a localized as possible. For example where I live a 15.00 an hour minimum wage might kill jobs whereas in NYC it still wouldn't be enough to make minimum wage workers independent from the government. So if the state passes such a law they have failed both ends of the spectrum

the idea that one size fits all across the nation is dumb.

donttread
04-03-2016, 12:12 PM
the idea that one size fits all across the nation is dumb.

Dumb and a concept the Constitution attempts to limit

onecut
04-03-2016, 02:07 PM
It is. I'm living just fine off it.

Not sure how some of the retards from my generation think they have a problem.

Also this year thanks to my employer (and not Obama) I have a slew of insurance (health, dental, vision, and life) at a very affordable cost to me.

/Edit: Good to see you too. I'm back and trying a new policy, the first $#@! post I see from a Liberal crackpot gets them put on my ignore list.

Zero tolerance for fools. They want to debate me properly, cool, they want to use logical fallacies and name calling and baiting and bull$#@!? $#@! them. Not going to let them make me upset anymore. They're not worth it.

If anyone beieves the above post......................................I have some land in Florida,

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 02:08 PM
If anyone beieves the above post......................................I have some land in Florida,

Explain. Which part vexes you?

onecut
04-03-2016, 02:10 PM
I am not talking about the living wage meme. That is a socialist talking point.

It costs more to live in NYC that in Watertown, NY. If we will have a minimum wage they should not be the same in those two places. That makes zero sense.

Move to Watertown.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 02:14 PM
Move to Watertown.

No thanks. When I was stationed at Ft. Drum I lived in Sackets Harbor (https://www.google.com/search?q=Sackets+Harbor&client=opera&hs=KM&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdo86nlvPLAhVKOSYKHYpzD-AQ_AUICCgC&biw=768&bih=377#imgrc=TPRKfgeg8CTwDM%3A). And I hate long commutes.

http://www.bikethebyways.org/wp-content/gallery/oly-carthage-sackets-harbor/oly-sackets-harbor-seaway-trail-building-lake-view-holmes-2010.jpg


Plus, I took actions as a young man to ensure that I was worth very much more than the minimum wage.

onecut
04-03-2016, 02:22 PM
Explain. Which part vexes you?

This part


Also this year thanks to my employer (and not Obama) I have a slew of insurance (health, dental, vision, and life) at a very affordable cost to me.

Green Arrow
04-03-2016, 02:27 PM
I largely agree that $15 is too high, unless you live in Los Angeles or New York City, then the cost of living might necessitate it.

Even so, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I like California's new approach. They just worked out a deal to gradually raise the minimum wage to $15 by 2022.

It's not perfect by any means, but honestly, if you're going to raise the minimum to $15, raising it gradually over several years like that is the best way to do it because it gives the market time to adjust. The agreement also allows the governor to pause the annual increase during a recession.

GrassrootsConservative
04-03-2016, 02:32 PM
If anyone beieves the above post......................................I have some land in Florida,

Great post. Your 21st here?

Good. The first on my ignore list due to my new Zero Tolerance policy. Enjoy your stay. I will enjoy not seeing more shit posts.

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 02:44 PM
I largely agree that $15 is too high, unless you live in Los Angeles or New York City, then the cost of living might necessitate it.

Even so, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I like California's new approach. They just worked out a deal to gradually raise the minimum wage to $15 by 2022.

It's not perfect by any means, but honestly, if you're going to raise the minimum to $15, raising it gradually over several years like that is the best way to do it because it gives the market time to adjust. The agreement also allows the governor to pause the annual increase during a recession.

I think there's only one reason the higher wage is being slowly phased in, politicians know that if they did it right away they'd spook a lot of business owners, the slow way boils them slowly kind of like a frog in a pot.

Peter1469
04-03-2016, 03:00 PM
This part


Also this year thanks to my employer (and not Obama) I have a slew of insurance (health, dental, vision, and life) at a very affordable cost to me.

What offends you about that?

Green Arrow
04-03-2016, 03:05 PM
I think there's only one reason the higher wage is being slowly phased in, politicians know that if they did it right away they'd spook a lot of business owners, the slow way boils them slowly kind of like a frog in a pot.

Honestly, I think it's working. Many employers across the country are taking the initiative and raising their wages now. Not to $15 or anything nearly that high, but like with my company for example, they raised our wages from $7.25 to $7.50, then about six months later raised it from $7.50 to $7.75. I haven't gotten the company minimum for almost a year, so I don't know what it is now exactly, but I think the company minimum has reached $8 now.

It looks to me like a poker game - workers have said, we want higher wages. Companies said no. Workers said, fine, we're pushing for the minimum wage to be raised to $15 then. Companies scoffed and said it would never happen. Then it started to happen in localities like Seattle and then states like California. Companies bought the bluff and are folding.

michiganFats
04-03-2016, 03:20 PM
Honestly, I think it's working. Many employers across the country are taking the initiative and raising their wages now. Not to $15 or anything nearly that high, but like with my company for example, they raised our wages from $7.25 to $7.50, then about six months later raised it from $7.50 to $7.75. I haven't gotten the company minimum for almost a year, so I don't know what it is now exactly, but I think the company minimum has reached $8 now.

It looks to me like a poker game - workers have said, we want higher wages. Companies said no. Workers said, fine, we're pushing for the minimum wage to be raised to $15 then. Companies scoffed and said it would never happen. Then it started to happen in localities like Seattle and then states like California. Companies bought the bluff and are folding.

I'm not sure about your company of course but that's not usually how companies set wages, availability of whatever kind of labor you're looking for is what matters. I doubt they would have set the company minimum at $8 if they were worried about $15. Something else probably drove that move.

Green Arrow
04-03-2016, 03:24 PM
I'm not sure about your company of course but that's not usually how companies set wages, availability of whatever kind of labor you're looking for is what matters. I doubt they would have set the company minimum at $8 if they were worried about $15. Something else probably drove that move.

You're probably right, I was just thinking out loud. I'm not a business owner and have no desire to be, so it's not my field of study :tongue: