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Peter1469
04-27-2016, 07:37 PM
This tPF thread is only to discuss specifics from the speech.


If you have feelings about the speech there is a non-tPF thread on it here (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/61897-Trump-First-Foreign-Policy-Speech-Obama-to-blame-for-everything-since-Cold-War).

Specific comments only. Example:
"

Unfortunately, after the Cold War, our foreign policy veered badly off course. We failed to develop a new vision for a new time. In fact, as time went on, our foreign policy began to make less and less sense.

I disagree because [fill in with a logical response.] "


The full text is at this link. (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-foreign-policy-speech)

Mister D
04-27-2016, 07:53 PM
I can't take the we saved the world stuff seriously but he makes a good point about a singular lack of direction. There is far too much moralizing in American foreign policy.

Peter1469
04-27-2016, 07:55 PM
I can't take the we saved the world stuff seriously but he makes a good point about a singular lack of direction. There is far too much moralizing in American foreign policy.


Morality should have nothing to do with formulating foreign policy. US interests should be the focus.

Mister D
04-27-2016, 08:04 PM
Morality should have nothing to do with formulating foreign policy. US interests should be the focus.

I agree 100%. This concerns power and the interests of the state. Ironically, a tendency to moralize only widens the scope of violence because the enemy, whoever they may be, is conceived of as morally deficient or even evil rather than simply as the bearer of rival interests.

FindersKeepers
04-28-2016, 05:27 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with the "America First" motto. We are overextended and, while presidents like Obama seem to think American taxpayers are a bottomless pit, we aren't. Just over half of all American citizens are pulling the weight (federally) for the rest of the nation and for all the foreign expenditures.

He was also right about Iran, and our short-sighted President is just beginning to learn how foolish the deal was.

He was dead to rights about Obama's stupidity in Egypt. Selling out Mubarak and demanding that the Muslim Brotherhood have a "seat at the decision making table" was beyond ludicrous. It makes me wonder what kind of idiots are advising our current president.

And, of course, he was right about Israel. Obama has made the world a more dangerous place.

It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, so I'm not convinced Trump can reverse all of Obama's mistakes, but he's saying the right things.

The downside, however, is that he needs a different speechwriter. A good speechwriter understands the candidate's use of idioms and dialectic patterns and writes to suit. Right now, Trump is just getting used to the prompter but it will become second-nature at some point if he uses it even a fraction as much as Obama did.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 05:33 AM
I have yet to hear substantive complaints here or on the "news" about the speech. I assume that there either are none, or people are not sure of their positions so don't speak up other than to emote in general.

SurelySimple
04-28-2016, 06:42 AM
I have yet to hear substantive complaints here or on the "news" about the speech. I assume that there either are none, or people are not sure of their positions so don't speak up other than to emote in general.


Well you might want to read the news today...

He's getting it from both sides...

Right or Left are blasting the Trump speech..

The WSJ said the speech as a "(speech was)so a serious if contradictory speech is at least a kind of progress."

Now there a thumb in the eye for you..

Others have been less charitable...

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:00 AM
Well you might want to read the news today...

He's getting it from both sides...

Right or Left are blasting the Trump speech..

The WSJ said the speech as a "(speech was)so a serious if contradictory speech is at least a kind of progress."

Now there a thumb in the eye for you..

Others have been less charitable...

I am interesting in specific concerns with what Trump said. Take one statement and quote it. Then say I disagree for such reasons.

I don't care what people feel about it.

Take this one: nation-states are still the basis of the international system. Not international institutions.

Common Sense
04-28-2016, 07:03 AM
Morality should have nothing to do with formulating foreign policy. US interests should be the focus.

Morality should always be something to consider.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:04 AM
Morality should always be something to consider.

Why? Notice nobody came to help in Darfur. Why? Because no nation had a vital interest there.

Common Sense
04-28-2016, 07:07 AM
Ending the theft of American jobs will give us the resources we need to rebuild our military and regain our financial independence and strength.
I am the only person running for the Presidency who understands this problem and knows how to fix it.



Trump understands this problem because he contributes to this problem. He outsources manufacturing for his products and hires foreign labor. How can you trust him to fix this problem if he contributes to it himself.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:12 AM
Trump understands this problem because he contributes to this problem. He outsources manufacturing for his products and hires foreign labor. How can you trust him to fix this problem if he contributes to it himself.

This was one of the few parts of the speech that I didn't agree with (did you suspect that and pick it for that reason?)

Anyway, Trump or supporter would say that he has addressed that in the past. As a businessman he did what was best for his businesses within the laws on the books. He is proposing protectionist policies to change those laws so business will stay in the US.

As I said before the US does not need to make cheap stuff. Let low skill nations do that.

Common Sense
04-28-2016, 07:15 AM
We have spent trillions of dollars over time – on planes, missiles, ships, equipment – building up our military to provide a strong defense for Europe and Asia. The countries we are defending must pay for the cost of this defense – and, if not, the U.S. must be prepared to let these countries defend themselves.

The US chooses to do this and does so not only for strategic reasons but for economic ones as well. The US also profits financially from foreign adventurism.

The US is also phasing out a lot of overseas bases. Germany is slated to loose several. Japan will surely follow. But again, this is America's choice.

Common Sense
04-28-2016, 07:17 AM
This was one of the few parts of the speech that I didn't agree with (did you suspect that and pick it for that reason?)

Anyway, Trump or supporter would say that he has addressed that in the past. As a businessman he did what was best for his businesses within the laws on the books. He is proposing protectionist policies to change those laws so business will stay in the US.

As I said before the US does not need to make cheap stuff. Let low skill nations do that.

Nah, I'm just going through it chronologically.

Sure, but it speaks to his hypocrisy. He is talking out of one side of his mouth. It illustrates that he is just saying things he probably doesn't believe. He says things that people want to hear.

Common Sense
04-28-2016, 07:20 AM
Israel, our great friend and the one true Democracy in the Middle East, has been snubbed and criticized by an Administration that lacks moral clarity. Just a few days ago, Vice President Biden again criticized Israel – a force for justice and peace – for acting as an impediment to peace in the region.

Israel is a great ally, but it has impeded the peace process. There's noting wrong with saying that. I think Trump knows very little about Israel but his speech writers know that Israel is a trigger word for evangelicals.

Common Sense
04-28-2016, 07:20 AM
President Obama has not been a friend to Israel. He has treated Iran with tender love and care and made it a great power in the Middle East – all at the expense of Israel, our other allies in the region and, critically, the United States.

OK, that's just bullshit.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:23 AM
The US chooses to do this and does so not only for strategic reasons but for economic ones as well. The US also profits financially from foreign adventurism.

The US is also phasing out a lot of overseas bases. Germany is slated to loose several. Japan will surely follow. But again, this is America's choice.

It is more complicated than this. But the US chose to do that in the past. That does not bind the US to do it now or in the future. We are broke.

Trump is correct. If you want to be a US ally, you have to bring something to the deal. You have to be extremely important to our interests (not your interests) for the US to carry you.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:24 AM
Nah, I'm just going through it chronologically.

Sure, but it speaks to his hypocrisy. He is talking out of one side of his mouth. It illustrates that he is just saying things he probably doesn't believe. He says things that people want to hear.

I disagree. He operates within the law. He knows the flaws and can fix them.

It is like IRS tax instructions: take all legal deductions available.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:25 AM
Israel is a great ally, but it has impeded the peace process. There's noting wrong with saying that. I think Trump knows very little about Israel but his speech writers know that Israel is a trigger word for evangelicals.

Agree there.

Israel is pretty much a non-issue in global security. But it is a hot emotional issue.

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:26 AM
OK, that's just bullshit.

I agree with Trump. But this was for political points and not relevant for Trump's foreign policy positions.

Cigar
04-28-2016, 07:27 AM
Make America Great Again - America First ... :rollseyes:

Flag Waving, Chest Beating, God Bless America Cheering Patriots

BTW, exactly what Day and Date did America stop being Great and First?

Could it have been Tuesday January 20th 2009, or was it November 4th 2008?

Or Both? :laugh:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PBopC7pnZ5c/UHuaJ5BV6_I/AAAAAAAAC5I/Ow2Rw8MUuBk/s1600/dog-whistle.jpg

Peter1469
04-28-2016, 07:30 AM
This thread is for serious discussion of Trump's foreign policy position.

For emoting with no requirement for substance see this link (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/61897-Trump-First-Foreign-Policy-Speech-Obama-to-blame-for-everything-since-Cold-War).

Green Arrow
04-28-2016, 10:17 AM
I've read the transcript and listened to the speech in full. I'll critique it when I'm home from work and have a chance to process it and consider it.

Peter1469
04-29-2016, 05:55 PM
Pat Buchanan speaks (http://www.wnd.com/2016/04/at-last-america-first/)out on Trump's speech. The Paleocon is, as typical, correct.


Two minutes into his speech before the Center for the National Interest, Trump declared that the “major and overriding theme” of his administration will be – “America first.” Right down the smokestack!

Gutsy and brazen it was to use that phrase, considering the demonization of the great anti-war movement of 1940-41, which was backed by the young patriots John F. Kennedy and his brother Joe, Gerald Ford and Sargent Shriver, and President Hoover and Alice Roosevelt.


Whether the issue is trade, immigration or foreign policy, says Trump, “we are putting the American people first again.” U.S. policy will be dictated by U.S. national interests.


By what he castigated, and what he promised, Trump is repudiating both the fruits of the Obama-Clinton foreign policy and the legacy of Bush Republicanism and neoconservatism.


When Ronald Reagan went home, says Trump, “our foreign policy began to make less and less sense. Logic was replaced with foolishness and arrogance, which ended in one foreign policy disaster after another.”


He lists the results of 15 years of Bush-Obama wars in the Middle East: civil war, religious fanaticism, thousands of Americans killed, trillions of dollars lost, a vacuum created that ISIS has filled.


Is he wrong here? How have all of these wars availed us? Where is the “New World Order” of which Bush I rhapsodized at the U.N.?



Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/04/at-last-america-first/#DV3mQW8aue2uSmQX.99

Read the entire article.

Peter1469
04-29-2016, 05:57 PM
Ilana Mercer also writes about Trump (http://www.wnd.com/2016/04/trumps-america-first-policy-remarkably-sophisticated/). At a higher reading level that Pat.

Naturally, Albright wants U.S. foreign policy to remain complex, convoluted; based not on bedrock American principles, but on bureaucratically friendly talking points, imbibed in the “best” schools of government, put to practice by the likes of the Council on Foreign Relations.

Like so many D.C. insiders who move seamlessly between government and the flush-with-funds think-tank industry, Albright has worked for CFR. (Yearly revenue (http://www.thebestschools.org/features/most-influential-think-tanks/): $61.0 million. Mission: Not America First.)


Neo-Wilsonian foreign policy is big business.


Wait for the Brookings Institution, RAND Corporation and the Center for American Progress to pile on Trump’s “unsophisticated,” America-centric foreign policy.


Like an invasive, foreign Kudzu, these anti-American forces are everywhere. What Trump’s advocating translates into a reduced profile for them: less demand for their neo-Wilsonian schemes, promulgated in focused blindness by think-tank types and by most tele-tarts.


Reduced demand for American agitation abroad will mean fewer “media references per year,” (http://www.thebestschools.org/features/most-influential-think-tanks/) less “monthly traffic” to monetize on websites, less influence in the halls of power and, ultimately, reduced revenues.


We might even see fewer color-coded revolutions around the world.


Trump’s promised change to American foreign policy can’t sit well with the International Republican Institute (IRI), the National Democratic Institute (NDI) and Freedom House. These have been described by the press as “Washington-based group[s] that promote democracy and open elections.”


More like Alinskyite agitators.



Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/04/trumps-america-first-policy-remarkably-sophisticated/#KmgMokJuIdvo2oRS.99

Read the entire article.

Peter1469
04-29-2016, 07:33 PM
Don't Call Donald Trump's Foreign Policy a Fantasy (http://www.realclearworld.com/video/2016/04/26/dont_call_donald_trumps_foreign_policy_a_fantasy.h tml)
Video at link.


Americans have heard it over and over again: Trump is going to build a beautiful wall along the southern border and Mexico is going to pay for it. Yet, most of Trump’s critics view the proposal as pure fantasy. This, as Atlantic staff writer Uri Friedman explains, is a big mistake. Trump’s wall should be taken very seriously. For one, it’s been the centerpiece of his campaign since he announced his candidacy in June of 2015. Secondly, the wall is an encapsulation of Trump’s America-First worldview that provides a glimpse into what his foreign policy might look like in practice.

Mister D
04-29-2016, 08:13 PM
Of course Pat is correct and if you have any misgivings just consider the fact that all the right people hate his guts.

Tahuyaman
04-29-2016, 09:54 PM
Unfortunately, after the Cold War, our foreign policy veered badly off course. We failed to develop a new vision for a new time. In fact, as time went on, our foreign policy began to make less and less sense.

I agree with that part. The collapse of the Soviet union and the Warsaw Pact left a huge void and we reacted too precipitously. Some thought that there would be nothing but peace and niceness forever.

Tahuyaman
04-29-2016, 09:55 PM
The Mexican internet sucks.

Peter1469
04-29-2016, 09:56 PM
I never had a problem with it. But I was in very nice parts of Mexico.

Tahuyaman
04-29-2016, 09:58 PM
I never had a problem with it. But I was in very nice parts of Mexico.

My place has effed up wireless.

Peter1469
04-30-2016, 08:06 AM
William Kristol, a neocon war chief, did not like Trump's speech. Shocking.


Trump's speech is in fact predictably unimpressive. The parts of it that are true are utterly unoriginal and strikingly superficial regurgitations of conventional conservative criticisms of the Obama administration, presented in a simple-minded way. There are also vague platitudes about America and the world indistinguishable from those that inhabit most such speeches.
Meanwhile, the parts of the speech that are striking aren't true. The most distinctive passages are bowdlerized remnants from the writings of Pat Buchanan—bowdlerized because Trump lacks the courage of Buchanan's convictions and thinks he can get the upside of Buchananism without paying any price in popularity. Thus Trump's vague invocation of "America First" without being willing to explore the implications of this historically charged phrase. Thus Trump's de facto appeasement of dictators without going out of his way to express sympathy with them. Thus Trump's hostility to intervention around the world without considering the consequences of nonintervention. Thus Trump's contempt for any attempt to foster freedom or democracy around the world without a willingness to acknowledge what kind of world he would thus be inviting.
Pat Buchanan never really came close to becoming president. But there is a president whose policies Donald Trump's would in fact resemble: Barack Obama. No intervention against dictators? Check. No action to prevent mass slaughter? Check. Another reset with Putin's Russia to break what Trump calls the "cycle of hostility" for which the United States and Russia are apparently equally responsible? Check. "Getting out of the nation-building business, and instead focusing on creating stability in the world"? Check! Trump's agenda turns out to be Obama's all-too-familiar agenda of national retreat masked by a rhetoric of America First bellicosity.