Mass Surveillance and Self-Censorship

[Ethereal]

New Study Shows Mass Surveillance Breeds Meekness, Fear and Self-Censorship (https://theintercept.com/2016/04/28/new-study-shows-mass-surveillance-breeds-meekness-fear-and-self-censorship/)

A newly published study from Oxford’s Jon Penney provides empirical evidence for a key argument long made by privacy advocates: that the mere existence of a surveillance state breeds fear and conformity and stifles free expression. Reporting on the study, the Washington Post this morning described this phenomenon: “If we think that authorities are watching our online actions, we might stop visiting certain websites or not say certain things just to avoid seeming suspicious.”

The new study documents how, in the wake of the 2013 Snowden revelations (of which 87% of Americans were aware), there was “a 20 percent decline in page views on Wikipedia articles related to terrorism, including those that mentioned ‘al-Qaeda,’ “car bomb’ or ‘Taliban.'” People were afraid to read articles about those topics because of fear that doing so would bring them under a cloud of suspicion. The dangers of that dynamic were expressed well by Penney: “If people are spooked or deterred from learning about important policy matters like terrorism and national security, this is a real threat to proper democratic debate.”

As the Post explains, several other studies have also demonstrated how mass surveillance crushes free expression and free thought. A 2015 study examined Google search data and demonstrated that, post-Snowden, “users were less likely to search using search terms that they believed might get them in trouble with the US government” and that these “results suggest that there is a chilling effect on search behavior from government surveillance on the Internet.”

The fear that causes self-censorship is well beyond the realm of theory. Ample evidence demonstrates that it’s real – and rational. A study from PEN America writers found that 1 in 6 writers had curbed their content out of fear of surveillance and showed that writers are “not only overwhelmingly worried about government surveillance, but are engaging in self-censorship as a result.” Scholars in Europe have been accused of being terrorist supporters by virtue of possessing research materials on extremist groups, while British libraries refuse to house any material on the Taliban for fear of being prosecuted for material support for terrorism.

There are also numerous psychological studies demonstrating that people who believe they are being watched engage in behavior far more compliant, conformist and submissive than those who believe they are acting without monitoring. That same realization served centuries ago as the foundation of Jeremy Bentham’s Panopticon: that behaviors of large groups of people can be effectively controlled through architectural structures that make it possible for them to be watched at any given movement even though they can never know if they are, in fact, being monitored, thus forcing them to act as if they always are being watched. This same self-censorsing, chilling effect of the potential of being surveilled was also the crux of the tyranny about which Orwell warned in 1984:



There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You have to live – did live, from habit that became instinct – in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.



CONTINUED

It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

The fact that the US government is engaged in mass, indiscriminate spying on the communications of American civilians should creep any right-thinking person out.

Amazingly, though, there are millions of Americans who think it's just fine that the US government is behaving like the Soviet Union on steroids.

Land of the free? Don't kid yourselves.

[donttread]

It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

The fact that the US government is engaged in mass, indiscriminate spying on the communications of American civilians should creep any right-thinking person out.

Amazingly, though, there are millions of Americans who think it's just fine that the US government is behaving like the Soviet Union on steroids.

Land of the free? Don't kid yourselves.

Land of the "used to be free". Still it amazed me how little stir it caused among the grazers when they found out the feds were totally ignoring due process to spy on Americans enmasse

[Ethereal]

Land of the "used to be free". Still it amazed me how little stir it caused among the grazers when they found out the feds were totally ignoring due process to spy on Americans enmasse

It's mass denial.

Americans find reality too disturbing, so they either ignore it or it they attempt to rationalize it.

They don't want to admit the truth to themselves.

[Private Pickle]

It's mass denial.

Americans find reality too disturbing, so they either ignore or it they attempt to rationalize it.

They don't want to admit the truth to themselves.

I wish that were the case but the reality is simple apathy.

[stjames1_53]

worrying about the feds? Hell, they should be the least of your worries. Think a lot closer to home. Stingray? anyone?

[Ethereal]

I wish that were the case but the reality is simple apathy.

Apathy and denial often go hand-in-hand.

[Ethereal]

worrying about the feds? Hell, they should be the least of your worries. Think a lot closer to home. Stingray? anyone?

Yes, stingray is quite worrisome, but the federal government has played an integral role in promoting it.

[stjames1_53]

Yes, stingray is quite worrisome, but the federal government has played an integral role in promoting it.

all of it is bad news..............
"If you have nothing to hide..." soft words of tyranny

[Ethereal]

all of it is bad news..............
"If you have nothing to hide..." soft words of tyranny

Anyone who says that is lying to others and to themselves.

Because everyone has something to hide.

It's why we have locks on our doors, blinds on our windows, passwords on our emails, and envelopes enclosing our letters.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

[Private Pickle]

Apathy and denial often go hand-in-hand.

Often but not in this case. In this case you have apathy and then defense of that apathy with things like "well if you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about".

[donttread]

It's mass denial.

Americans find reality too disturbing, so they either ignore it or it they attempt to rationalize it.


They don't want to admit the truth to themselves.


Which is, of course exactly how we got to this point to begin with

[Ethereal]

Often but not in this case. In this case you have apathy and then defense of that apathy with things like "well if you're not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about".

I mentioned apathy as well as denial.

Either they pretend like there is no problem (apathy) or they attempt to rationalize it somehow (if you have nothing to hide).

And that's typically the case with most authoritarian societies.

Instead of admitting the truth and trying to do something about it, people just stick their heads in the sand and go along to get along.

[Chris]

It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

There are many who want just that.

And they call it liberty!

[Peter1469]

Conditioning


It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

The fact that the US government is engaged in mass, indiscriminate spying on the communications of American civilians should creep any right-thinking person out.

Amazingly, though, there are millions of Americans who think it's just fine that the US government is behaving like the Soviet Union on steroids.

Land of the free? Don't kid yourselves.

[Ethereal]

Conditioning

That's exactly right.

The ruling class wants to condition the populace to be servile pawns.

It makes it easier for them to oppress and exploit us.

[Tahuyaman]

It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

The fact that the US government is engaged in mass, indiscriminate spying on the communications of American civilians should creep any right-thinking person out.

Amazingly, though, there are millions of Americans who think it's just fine that the US government is behaving like the Soviet Union on steroids.

Land of the free? Don't kid yourselves.

I've said for months that our government is encouaging a "snitch" society. There were threads dedicated to this a long time ago.

[Tahuyaman]

I wish that were the case but the reality is simple apathy.

Too many people are fat dumb and happy.

[domer76]

It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

The fact that the US government is engaged in mass, indiscriminate spying on the communications of American civilians should creep any right-thinking person out.

Amazingly, though, there are millions of Americans who think it's just fine that the US government is behaving like the Soviet Union on steroids.

Land of the free? Don't kid yourselves.

^Another paranoiac.

[Peter1469]

Warning: Please don’t call members names.

[Ethereal]

^Another paranoiac.

Whatever you do, don't address the facts presented in the OP.

[PolWatch]

It's disturbing how secretive and totalitarian the state is becoming in America and throughout the western world.

The fact that the US government is engaged in mass, indiscriminate spying on the communications of American civilians should creep any right-thinking person out.

Amazingly, though, there are millions of Americans who think it's just fine that the US government is behaving like the Soviet Union on steroids.

Land of the free? Don't kid yourselves.

Its amazing how many people just shrug & say that only those suspected of illegal/terrorist activity will be look at. We are all included in the spying activities....guilty until proved innocent.

[MisterVeritis]

Its amazing how many people just shrug & say that only those suspected of illegal/terrorist activity will be look at. We are all included in the spying activities....guilty until proved innocent.
It is no longer possible to "be" innocent. We have nearly 500 independent agencies making laws, including laws with criminal penalties. We long ago lost our ability to even know how many criminal statutes there are. And many of those same agencies have men and women with guns and police powers. Why?

[Ethereal]

Its amazing how many people just shrug & say that only those suspected of illegal/terrorist activity will be look at. We are all included in the spying activities....guilty until proved innocent.

And I'm still waiting for the defenders of domestic mass surveillance to point to a single example where it foiled a terrorist plot in a way that couldn't have been accomplished using traditional investigative methods. Heck, I'm still waiting for an example that it worked, period.

But I can point to numerous examples where it utterly failed to prevent terrorist attacks: Boston bombings, Paris, San Bernardino, Brussels, etc.

[PolWatch]

It is no longer possible to "be" innocent. We have nearly 500 independent agencies making laws, including laws with criminal penalties. We long ago lost our ability to even know how many criminal statutes there are. And many of those same agencies have men and women with guns and police powers. Why?

I think most people are law-abiding and have very contact with law enforcement. They are not aware of just how much spying against citizens is taking place now.

[stjames1_53]

It is no longer possible to "be" innocent. We have nearly 500 independent agencies making laws, including laws with criminal penalties. We long ago lost our ability to even know how many criminal statutes there are. And many of those same agencies have men and women with guns and police powers. Why?

We also have the biggest to the smallest police agencies equipping themselves with military equipment.
DoD: Use or lose it.
LEO keeps it running smooth. then along comes Obama stating he wants the police nationalized. He bandies about the word of DoJ oversight for the national LEO.
Militarized+nationalized=a standing army, fully equipped and ready to rock
Method: create social disorder, sow discontent
Declare national emergency
enforce martial law.
Hegelian Hierarchy
create the problem
declare a problem
offer a cure
Now to the why.............like any despotic ruler driven with a narcissistic god complex, he merely wants to control all of it. No big deal........

[domer76]

Whatever you do, don't address the facts presented in the OP.

That people like you are paranoid?

You have an exceptionally elevated sense of self-importance if you think the government gives a flying fuck about you. Unless, that is, if you really ARE a terrorist.

Many of you fools put yourself in greater jeopardy with the anti-government bullshit you spout on a public forum than anything else. But here you are, day after day raging away. lol

Please stay on topic... take discussion of personalities to the PM function

[MisterVeritis]

That people like you are paranoid?

You have an exceptionally elevated sense of self-importance if you think the government gives a flying $#@! about you. Unless, that is, if you really ARE a terrorist.

Many of you fools put yourself in greater jeopardy with the anti-government bull$#@! you spout on a public forum than anything else. But here you are, day after day raging away. lol
Many like you will sit in the dust, wondering what happened. I wish I could be there when it happens. No. I don't. I prefer to be on my small, out of the way farm.

[Dr. Who]

That people like you are paranoid?

You have an exceptionally elevated sense of self-importance if you think the government gives a flying fuck about you. Unless, that is, if you really ARE a terrorist.

Many of you fools put yourself in greater jeopardy with the anti-government bullshit you spout on a public forum than anything else. But here you are, day after day raging away. lol
It's a slippery slope domer - today they are looking for terrorists, but what else might they eventually be looking for? Get the wrong government and then they might be looking for dissidents. Once they have the legal means to spy on people, they are not going to give it up.

[Cthulhu]

That people like you are paranoid?

You have an exceptionally elevated sense of self-importance if you think the government gives a flying $#@! about you. Unless, that is, if you really ARE a terrorist.

Many of you fools put yourself in greater jeopardy with the anti-government bull$#@! you spout on a public forum than anything else. But here you are, day after day raging away. lol
Tell me, does it comfort you knowing that you have only the illusion of privacy?

Or do you just enjoy the attention?

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[donttread]

I wish that were the case but the reality is simple apathy.

I like E's explanation better ( more fixable) but I fear there is much truth in yours as well

[donttread]

There are many who want just that.

And they call it liberty!


They think they are safer somehow

[donttread]

Its amazing how many people just shrug & say that only those suspected of illegal/terrorist activity will be look at. We are all included in the spying activities....guilty until proved innocent.


To return political favors the feds are probably giving our info the marketers , adding insult to injury

[donttread]

It is no longer possible to "be" innocent. We have nearly 500 independent agencies making laws, including laws with criminal penalties. We long ago lost our ability to even know how many criminal statutes there are. And many of those same agencies have men and women with guns and police powers. Why?

And the sad thing is w have had 90% of the laws we really need for decades or longer

[donttread]

That people like you are paranoid?

You have an exceptionally elevated sense of self-importance if you think the government gives a flying fuck about you. Unless, that is, if you really ARE a terrorist.

Many of you fools put yourself in greater jeopardy with the anti-government bullshit you spout on a public forum than anything else. But here you are, day after day raging away. lol

Please stay on topic... take discussion of personalities to the PM function

And then we have Domer, who honestly believes he can trade freedom for security

[stjames1_53]

And I'm still waiting for the defenders of domestic mass surveillance to point to a single example where it foiled a terrorist plot in a way that couldn't have been accomplished using traditional investigative methods. Heck, I'm still waiting for an example that it worked, period.

But I can point to numerous examples where it utterly failed to prevent terrorist attacks: Boston bombings, Paris, San Bernardino, Brussels, etc.

When the challenge about stingray first hit the public eye, they denied it. Then when confronted with undeniable proof, they said it was top secret and couldn't talk about it. Then they declared it was only to be used to track kidnappers. Now they admit they are using it to clone phones, collect meta data, and intercept your messages
They ain't about to give that up...........and they don't care that we know........
and oh, to date, no kidnapping cases have been solved using stingray

[stjames1_53]

And then we have Domer, who honestly believes he can trade freedom for security

and still have liberty

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Md827fe112256adc7cb4eee6e884754e0H0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300
liberty through tyranny!!!!!!!

[Cthulhu]

When the challenge about stingray first hit the public eye, they denied it. Then when confronted with undeniable proof, they said it was top secret and couldn't talk about it. Then they declared it was only to be used to track kidnappers. Now they admit they are using it to clone phones, collect meta data, and intercept your messages
They ain't about to give that up...........and they don't care that we know........
and oh, to date, no kidnapping cases have been solved using stingray
Forgive the ignorance, but what is stingray?

I know nothing of it.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[MisterVeritis]

Forgive the ignorance, but what is stingray?

I know nothing of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker

[stjames1_53]

Forgive the ignorance, but what is stingray?

I know nothing of it.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-hi-tech-police-surveillance-the-stingray-cell-phone-spying-device/5331165

here's another good reference

[Adelaide]

I'll admit that since applying for US citizenship I have censored myself in all electronic means of communication. If I weren't in the process of getting my green card I wouldn't really give a shit.

[MisterVeritis]

I'll admit that since applying for US citizenship I have censored myself in all electronic means of communication. If I weren't in the process of getting my green card I wouldn't really give a $#@!.
All you need to do is sign every email with god is great and a call for jihad against we infidels. You will be in this country so fast your head will spin. Our Dear Leader supports Islamofascism.

[domer76]

And then we have Domer, who honestly believes he can trade freedom for security

An imbecilic comment in today's reality. JC Penney's and Macy's have a greater interest in your activities than the government. The water company knows when you shit and shower. The electric company can tell if you're growing pot in your basement. The government can look in my shorts if they want. There's absolutely nothing they will find that they need to know. They already know one of the things I keep most private - what I earn.

But, other than that necessary evil, I haven't noticed a single reduction in my liberty in my entire adult life. What the fuck were you doing wrong to have yours reduced?

[Cthulhu]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker


http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-hi-tech-police-surveillance-the-stingray-cell-phone-spying-device/5331165

here's another good reference

I remember now. I heard about this a long time ago, just didn't know what it was called.

And yes, it's bloody evil. That being said. It is entirely thwarted if you know how to encrypt stuff correctly.

Still evil though.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[stjames1_53]

An imbecilic comment in today's reality. JC Penney's and Macy's have a greater interest in your activities than the government. The water company knows when you $#@! and shower. The electric company can tell if you're growing pot in your basement. The government can look in my shorts if they want. There's absolutely nothing they will find that they need to know. They already know one of the things I keep most private - what I earn.

But, other than that necessary evil, I haven't noticed a single reduction in my liberty in my entire adult life. What the $#@! were you doing wrong to have yours reduced?

the most obvious question: How old are you? this isn't a joke question. I'm serious

[stjames1_53]

I remember now. I heard about this a long time ago, just didn't know what it was called.

And yes, it's bloody evil. That being said. It is entirely thwarted if you know how to encrypt stuff correctly.

Still evil though.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

we should not have to hide our communications........4th A has been gutted.

[Captain Obvious]

It's a slippery slope domer - today they are looking for terrorists, but what else might they eventually be looking for? Get the wrong government and then they might be looking for dissidents. Once they have the legal means to spy on people, they are not going to give it up.

https://media.giphy.com/media/b3u8anVaWFQ9G/giphy.gif

[Captain Obvious]

the most obvious question: How old are you? this isn't a joke question. I'm serious

He's like 70, lol

http://40.media.tumblr.com/b6ed4e34d7e872cfcb3a2de9b9d91c37/tumblr_nzfz9zEced1sbgdg5o2_1280.jpg

The Xl

[Cthulhu]

we should not have to hide our communications........4th A has been gutted.
Agreed on that. But still, they are not God. If you want privacy, it is still attainable.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[stjames1_53]

He's like 70, lol

http://40.media.tumblr.com/b6ed4e34d7e872cfcb3a2de9b9d91c37/tumblr_nzfz9zEced1sbgdg5o2_1280.jpg

@The Xl (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=865)

I pray to God that I don't go senile at 70 like some

[stjames1_53]

Agreed on that. But still, they are not God. If you want privacy, it is still attainable.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Privacy is a must in today's society. I know that it is slipping away, but attainable? Unless you totally fall off the grid, there is always a string they can pull to find you. I have a couple of friends from 'Nam that have managed to do that, but I still get an letter or two once in a while just to let me know they are still alive. One lives in the mountains around Utah, someplace, the other lives in Alaska.
But they are still connected to society, they're just not the sociable kind. 'Nam stripped them of everything that bound them to us. They were long-range snipers operating in-country with little contact with their battalion. These are a good example of those that never "came home."
You can bet their privacy is greater than mine or yours for all the obvious reasons.

[MisterVeritis]

I remember now. I heard about this a long time ago, just didn't know what it was called.

And yes, it's bloody evil. That being said. It is entirely thwarted if you know how to encrypt stuff correctly.

Still evil though.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.
How does one encrypt one's location and time?

[OGIS]

Land of the "used to be free". Still it amazed me how little stir it caused among the grazers when they found out the feds were totally ignoring due process to spy on Americans enmasse

Totally OK if it is used against the Poors and Brown People.

[Peter1469]

Totally OK if it is used against the Poors and Brown People.
Why?

[OGIS]

worrying about the feds? Hell, they should be the least of your worries. Think a lot closer to home. Stingray? anyone?

Around here, trolling the police who are using Stingray is a bit of the thing. A dangerous sport, imo. To play, all you need are at least a couple (more is better) of "disposable" cell phones, a cash-purchased time card, and a decent script for your actors to read from. The winner is whoever can get the OCSD all lathered up into sending out random SWAT teams.

Rule of thumb: any time your government spies on you BUT CANNOT SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFY YOU is golden for monkeywrenching, general shenanigans, and stirring up the hornet's nest. Reason: because bureaucracies all think alike, are HIGHLY predictable, and - once you know their hot buttons - can be goaded into excess.

[OGIS]

Why?

turrism.

[MisterVeritis]

Around here, trolling the police who are using Stingray is a bit of the thing. A dangerous sport, imo. To play, all you need are at least a couple (more is better) of "disposable" cell phones, a cash-purchased time card, and a decent script for your actors to read from. The winner is whoever can get the OCSD all lathered up into sending out random SWAT teams.

Rule of thumb: any time your government spies on you BUT CANNOT SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFY YOU is golden for monkeywrenching, general shenanigans, and stirring up the hornet's nest. Reason: because bureaucracies all think alike, are HIGHLY predictable, and - once you know their hot buttons - can be goaded into excess.
I suppose as long as the innocent people who are injured or killed are unknown to the players all is well.

[OGIS]

Around here, trolling the police who are using Stingray is a bit of the thing. A dangerous sport, imo. To play, all you need are at least a couple (more is better) of "disposable" cell phones, a cash-purchased time card, and a decent script for your actors to read from. The winner is whoever can get the OCSD all lathered up into sending out random SWAT teams.

Rule of thumb: any time your government spies on you BUT CANNOT SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFY YOU is golden for monkeywrenching, general shenanigans, and stirring up the hornet's nest. Reason: because bureaucracies all think alike, are HIGHLY predictable, and - once you know their hot buttons - can be goaded into excess.


I suppose as long as the innocent people who are injured or killed are unknown to the players all is well.

So far, all that's occurred is huge wastes of taxpayer money. Which will occur anyway so big deal. At least it keeps them from spending all their time rousting homeless people from their alley shelters.

[Peter1469]

turrism.


a meme

[Cthulhu]

How does one encrypt one's location and time?
Depends on the phone you use. You can't use an off the shelf phone. Many higher up gov officials use them. Same with diplomats.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[domer76]

the most obvious question: How old are you? this isn't a joke question. I'm serious

Why is that an obvious question?

[domer76]

Many like you will sit in the dust, wondering what happened. I wish I could be there when it happens. No. I don't. I prefer to be on my small, out of the way farm.

That's right. When your predicted "blood flowing in the streets" bullshit comes to pass. lol

[domer76]

It's a slippery slope domer - today they are looking for terrorists, but what else might they eventually be looking for? Get the wrong government and then they might be looking for dissidents. Once they have the legal means to spy on people, they are not going to give it up.

Give me a break. The paranoiacs keep predicting the same tyrannical government and it's nothing more than delusional bullshit. There are too many "mights" in your post to respond to. What "wrong government" might we have? A military coup? lol.

The he naivete of many astounds me.

[Mister D]

It's a slippery slope domer - today they are looking for terrorists, but what else might they eventually be looking for? Get the wrong government and then they might be looking for dissidents. Once they have the legal means to spy on people, they are not going to give it up.


Give me a break. The paranoiacs keep predicting the same tyrannical government and it's nothing more than delusional bull$#@!. There are too many "mights" in your post to respond to. What "wrong government" might we have? A military coup? lol.

The he naivete of many astounds me.

Domer does not see the irony.

[domer76]

Domer does not see the irony.

They don't care about "normal" people. You all seem to know normal. Don't flaunt and you'll be OK, despite your paranoia.

[Dr. Who]

Give me a break. The paranoiacs keep predicting the same tyrannical government and it's nothing more than delusional bullshit. There are too many "mights" in your post to respond to. What "wrong government" might we have? A military coup? lol.

The he naivete of many astounds me.
Tell me, did you envision the government having the ability to spy on all of its citizens before 9-11? Don't you see anything the least bit Orwellian about the government legally monitoring all communications "for your own good"? How about all the surveillance cameras appearing everywhere?

[OGIS]

a meme

Hmmm... at least the second time you've implied that memes are somehow an inferior form of communication.


https://backtothethames.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/inigomontoya.jpg

Meme's are similar to tropes in that regard. They are easily misunderstood.

[domer76]

Tell me, did you envision the government having the ability to spy on all of its citizens before 9-11? Don't you see anything the least bit Orwellian about the government legally monitoring all communications "for your own good"? How about all the surveillance cameras appearing everywhere?

I'm reacting to the over the top OP , who states that we are acting like the Soviet Union. Road apples.

First, the FBI already has legal authority in the U.S.

Second, without surveillance cameras, the Boston bombers would not have been identified. How does someone watching you pick your nose on Main Street inhibit your liberty? It doesn't.

Lastly, in this world environment, do all of you wish to do away with surveillance altogether? If not, then your going to have define what level is acceptable. Only the "normal" people? Most of you love to define that.

So, all of you that abhor this surveillance, either define the limits or do away with it all.

[OGIS]

Depends on the phone you use. You can't use an off the shelf phone. Many higher up gov officials use them. Same with diplomats.

Yes, you can. There are apps for that.

[Cthulhu]

Yes, you can. There are apps for that.
I know there are apps. But few are open source ones that have been audited.

But stingray also can retrieve encryption keys remotely.

Kinda defeats the purpose of encrypting it.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[OGIS]

I pray to God that I don't go senile at 70 like some

You're in the clear; it's already happened.

[stjames1_53]

Why is that an obvious question?

that's ok someone else filled in the blank

[OGIS]

Privacy is a must in today's society.

Privacy is greatly over-rated. Some observations:

Objectively, most of human history has been life in a goldfish bowl. Even a cursory view of history confirms this. The Tribe, the rest of the people living in your hut, the Village, and the Town always knew your business.

Privacy reached it's current popularity as an imperfect (imperfect because it could be easily circumvented by police agents and general nosiness) bulwark against the Tribe, the rest of the people living in your hut, the Village, the Town, or whatever current incarnation of Glorious Leader is currently claiming ownership of the Tribe, always knowing your business and telling you what to do. It's an artificial individual luxury for what has always been a psychologically tribal hominid.

There IS more than a bit of truth to the adage, "If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear." The problem, of course, is that "wrong" is subjective.

Also, remember that - though the privacy of the individual is important to you - the privacy of the STATE is important to mischief makers in the bureaucracy. And they abuse individual privacy concerns to accomplish that. How many times have you read a statement in the paper to the effect that "the police are releasing no details of the police shooting of all the family members to protect the individual privacy of the deceased."

Today, there are other, technological alternatives to privacy as a defense against the State. For example, consider the value of a "personal defense network" of cheap, independently-operated drones equipped with video and sound pickup. Add this to a requirement that continuously operating body cams be worn by all government officials. This idea highlights the other bulwark against tyranny: total information availability to the masses.

[OGIS]

They don't care about "normal" people. You all seem to know normal. Don't flaunt and you'll be OK, despite your paranoia.

Isn't that the stock con(servative)-artist response to atheists, gays, TG, etc.? And remember the "uppity kneegrow" who would "flaunt" himself? Horrible.

Hey, if that attitude is good enough to apply to blacks, atheists, gays, TGs, etc. then it should be good enough for Real Murikans to adopt, as well.

[Tahuyaman]

Just when you think the stupidity has reached it's apex, ^^^^^^^^^^

[OGIS]

I'm reacting to the over the top OP , who states that we are acting like the Soviet Union. Road apples.

First, the FBI already has legal authority in the U.S.

Second, without surveillance cameras, the Boston bombers would not have been identified. How does someone watching you pick your nose on Main Street inhibit your liberty? It doesn't.

Lastly, in this world environment, do all of you wish to do away with surveillance altogether? If not, then your going to have define what level is acceptable. Only the "normal" people? Most of you love to define that.

So, all of you that abhor this surveillance, either define the limits or do away with it all.

^^^THIS

But if they define those limits, then it will be quite obvious that what they obviously want is a surveillance society on the people they hate and fear, but not themselves.

[OGIS]

I know there are apps. But few are open source ones that have been audited.

But stingray also can retrieve encryption keys remotely.

Kinda defeats the purpose of encrypting it.

I sold regular old books on Silk Road for a few years (hey, even weasels and bad guys read stuff) and - trust me - they are way ahead of the government most of the time. That vaunted Silk Road takedown? An uncracked mirror site was up and running within 3 days.

[OGIS]

Just when you think the stupidity has reached it's apex, ^^^^^^^^^^

Its cool being able to tell when I've struck a nerve.

You always go into five-year-old-in-a-sandbox mode.

[Tahuyaman]

Yep, you have the five year old act down pat.

[Chris]

Surveil only with warrant and probable cause.

Sound familiar: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

[OGIS]

Yep, you have the five year old act down pat.

http://galeri3.uludagsozluk.com/129/facepalm_227789.jpg

[PolWatch]

Please keep the discussion civil. No provoking. No retaliation.

[OGIS]

Tahuyaman has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Warning: Mass Surveillance and Self-Censorship - in the U.S. Politics forum of The Political Forums.

This thread is located at:
http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/61975-Mass-Surveillance-and-Self-Censorship?goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
maineman is desperately searching for a friend. Maybe you should give him some aid and comfort.
***************


Probably a wise decision for you to delete this (yet another useless, content-less post).

[Tahuyaman]

Probably a wise decision for you to delete this (yet another useless, content-less post).

You seem to think it had some value. You're a little late to this subject anyway.

[MisterVeritis]

So far, all that's occurred is huge wastes of taxpayer money. Which will occur anyway so big deal. At least it keeps them from spending all their time rousting homeless people from their alley shelters.
Right. Causing a SWAT team to deploy is an accident waiting to happen. You are a typical liberal. I hope you will be a victim of your foolishness.

[OGIS]

Right. Causing a SWAT team to deploy is an accident waiting to happen. You are a typical liberal. I hope you will be a victim of your foolishness.

MY foolishness? Where, exactly, did I say that?

[domer76]

Isn't that the stock con(servative)-artist response to atheists, gays, TG, etc.? And remember the "uppity kneegrow" who would "flaunt" himself? Horrible.

Hey, if that attitude is good enough to apply to blacks, atheists, gays, TGs, etc. then it should be good enough for Real Murikans to adopt, as well.

Exactly. The morons that keep requiring "normalcy" for others to be left alone, don't require that for themselves to be left alone. If you're some moron that comes on a public forum always screaming tyranny and oppression, "blood in the streets, or some douchebag that calls everyone Komrade, that leaves you far outside "normal". Bring unnecessary attention to yourself and perhaps you deserve that attention.

The imbeciles who require their own sense of normalcy from others are anything BUT normal themselves. Look in the mirror. NOBODY is "normal".

[domer76]

^^^THIS

But if they define those limits, then it will be quite obvious that what they obviously want is a surveillance society on the people they hate and fear, but not themselves.

Bingo

[domer76]

Surveil only with warrant and probable cause.

Sound familiar: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Is monitoring worldwide communications for general patterns a violation? Probably not.

[Ethereal]

Totally OK if it is used against the Poors and Brown People.

I'm sure there are some people who think so.

So why don't you go start a thread addressing them.

Because this is MY thread and I don't support mass, indiscriminate spying on anyone, brown or otherwise.

[Mister D]

I'm sure there are some people who think so.

So why don't you go start a thread addressing them.

Because this is MY thread and I don't support mass, indiscriminate spying on anyone, brown or otherwise.

Apparently, OGIS is is trying to compensate for the fact that for most of his life he was 'conned' by conservatives.

[Ethereal]

Privacy is greatly over-rated.

Then feel free to remove the locks on your doors, tell me your email password, and set up a live stream of your bedroom.

You know, since you think privacy is so overrated.


Some observations:

Objectively, most of human history has been life in a goldfish bowl. Even a cursory view of history confirms this. The Tribe, the rest of the people living in your hut, the Village, and the Town always knew your business.

Privacy reached it's current popularity as an imperfect (imperfect because it could be easily circumvented by police agents and general nosiness) bulwark against the Tribe, the rest of the people living in your hut, the Village, the Town, or whatever current incarnation of Glorious Leader is currently claiming ownership of the Tribe, always knowing your business and telling you what to do. It's an artificial individual luxury for what has always been a psychologically tribal hominid.

There IS more than a bit of truth to the adage, "If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear." The problem, of course, is that "wrong" is subjective.

Also, remember that - though the privacy of the individual is important to you - the privacy of the STATE is important to mischief makers in the bureaucracy. And they abuse individual privacy concerns to accomplish that. How many times have you read a statement in the paper to the effect that "the police are releasing no details of the police shooting of all the family members to protect the individual privacy of the deceased."

Today, there are other, technological alternatives to privacy as a defense against the State. For example, consider the value of a "personal defense network" of cheap, independently-operated drones equipped with video and sound pickup. Add this to a requirement that continuously operating body cams be worn by all government officials. This idea highlights the other bulwark against tyranny: total information availability to the masses.

Why are you comparing social intimacy among tribal societies to the state engaging in mass surveillance of its domestic civilian population?

[Ethereal]

Isn't that the stock con(servative)-artist response to atheists, gays, TG, etc.? And remember the "uppity kneegrow" who would "flaunt" himself? Horrible.

Hey, if that attitude is good enough to apply to blacks, atheists, gays, TGs, etc. then it should be good enough for Real Murikans to adopt, as well.

Another post that has nothing to do with my OP.

[Ethereal]

^^^THIS

But if they define those limits, then it will be quite obvious that what they obviously want is a surveillance society on the people they hate and fear, but not themselves.

Who is "they"?

And why do you keep trying to inject them into this thread?

And if you're wondering what the defined limits on government surveillance are, then perhaps you should read the US Constitution, the Fourth Amendment in particular.

It stipulates that warrants must be particular and individualized, not indiscriminate and generalized.

It's actually pretty simple for anyone who has a cursory understanding of American law and history.

[Ethereal]

Apparently, OGIS is is trying to compensate for the fact that for most of his life he was 'conned' by conservatives.

Whatever he's doing, it doesn't have anything to do with my thread.

Glenn Greenwald, the author of the article in question, is a gay progressive man.

So if he wants to take on the hypocrisy of certain conservatives, then he can do it another thread.

[Mister D]

Whatever he's doing, it doesn't have anything to do with my thread.

Glenn Greenwald, the author of the article in question, is a gay progressive man.

So if he wants to take on the hypocrisy of certain conservatives, then he can do it another thread.

He does need to get over it. It's a bit of a bore at this point.

[Ethereal]

I'm always amused by people who ask what the alternative to mass, indiscriminate spying on civilians is.

How about using warrants that are based on individualized suspicion and probable cause? You know, like it says in the Fourth Amendment and we've been doing for around two centuries?

[OGIS]

Totally OK if it is used against the Poors and Brown People.


I'm sure there are some people who think so.

So why don't you go start a thread addressing them.

Because this is MY thread and I don't support mass, indiscriminate spying on anyone, brown or otherwise.

Your Sarcasm Meter may need adjusting. Go back and (carefully) read the context of what I said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSy5mEcmgwU

[OGIS]

Why are you comparing social intimacy among tribal societies to the state engaging in mass surveillance of its domestic civilian population?

Humans are the sum of their history. And for much of our history we have managed to survive and function with far less privacy that we currently enjoy. All I am saying is that, in this context, modern concerns for privacy are an anomaly. A medieval blacksmith in a British village, who lived over his work with 6 other families in a Great Room, would look at our concern for privacy and think we were weird.

I can see that this whole thing is an emotional hot button with you.

[OGIS]

all of it is bad news..............
"If you have nothing to hide..." soft words of tyranny


Anyone who says that is lying to others and to themselves.

Because everyone has something to hide.

It's why we have locks on our doors, blinds on our windows, passwords on our emails, and envelopes enclosing our letters.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Sorry folks, but this is conflating too meanings of the word "hide."

"Hide" can imply guilt.
Or it can imply "private," as in the need to protect yourself from theft.

All guilty people want privacy, but not all people who want privacy are guilty of something.

The perfect State would ferret out all hiding due to guilt, yet not touch hiding due to desire to protect oneself from crime.

[OGIS]

And I'm still waiting for the defenders of domestic mass surveillance to point to a single example where it foiled a terrorist plot in a way that couldn't have been accomplished using traditional investigative methods. Heck, I'm still waiting for an example that it worked, period.

But I can point to numerous examples where it utterly failed to prevent terrorist attacks: Boston bombings, Paris, San Bernardino, Brussels, etc.

It's the nature of successful counter-ops, of any nature, to not be made public. Why would you blab to the press about a successful bust, when doing so would tell the enemy what not to do next time?

Have there been any successful operations? I have no idea. And we won't know for years, if not decades.

[OGIS]

We also have the biggest to the smallest police agencies equipping themselves with military equipment.
DoD: Use or lose it.
LEO keeps it running smooth. then along comes Obama stating he wants the police nationalized. He bandies about the word of DoJ oversight for the national LEO.
Militarized+nationalized=a standing army, fully equipped and ready to rock
Method: create social disorder, sow discontent
Declare national emergency
enforce martial law.
Hegelian Hierarchy
create the problem
declare a problem
offer a cure
Now to the why.............like any despotic ruler driven with a narcissistic god complex, he merely wants to control all of it. No big deal........

That damned Obama!

JUST like Bush, who according to left wingnuts was all set to seize a 3rd term!

Will you people just stop, already? Take a deep breath and chill. The scary black man will be gone in January 2017, and you can fumigate the White House and replace all the china.

[Ethereal]

Humans are the sum of their history. And for much of our history we have managed to survive and function with far less privacy that we currently enjoy.

We also managed to survive and function without a state for much of our history.


All I am saying is that, in this context, modern concerns for privacy are an anomaly. A medieval blacksmith in a British village, who lived over his work with 6 other families in a Great Room, would look at our concern for privacy and think we were weird.

No he wouldn't.

Privacy as we "moderns" understand it emerged in conjunction with agriculture and "private" property.

Now, if you're talking about privacy in the context of tribal societies, then, yes, they would have found it somewhat alien, but they would have found the idea of a state even more alien.


I can see that this whole thing is an emotional hot button with you.

Are you able to discuss an issue without delving into the other poster's intentions, character, or mental state?

[Ethereal]

Sorry folks, but this is conflating too meanings of the word "hide."

"Hide" can imply guilt.
Or it can imply "private," as in the need to protect yourself from theft.

All guilty people want privacy, but not all people who want privacy are guilty of something.

The perfect State would ferret out all hiding due to guilt, yet not touch hiding due to desire to protect oneself from crime.

I'm not conflating anything.

Everyone has something to hide.

Including the people who say, "If you have nothing to hide..."

[Ethereal]

It's the nature of successful counter-ops, of any nature, to not be made public. Why would you blab to the press about a successful bust, when doing so would tell the enemy what not to do next time?

Have there been any successful operations? I have no idea. And we won't know for years, if not decades.

Except we already know how they do it.

They engage in mass, indiscriminate spying on the electronic communications of civilian populations all throughout the western world.

We know this because Edward Snowden leaked a trove of top secret documents proving as much.

So the idea that they do not share their successes because it's "secret" makes no sense.

Nor is it consistent with the public record which essentially proves that the mass collection program run by the NSA has not been utilized to disrupt a single terrorist attack on the USA.


U.S. Mass Surveillance Has No Record of Thwarting Large Terror Attacks, Regardless of Snowden Leaks (https://theintercept.com/2015/11/17/u-s-mass-surveillance-has-no-record-of-thwarting-large-terror-attacks-regardless-of-snowden-leaks/)

Despite the intelligence community’s attempts to blame NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden for the tragic attacks in Paris on Friday, the NSA’s mass surveillance programs do not have a track record — before or after Snowden — of identifying or thwarting actual large-scale terrorist plots.

[...]

In fact, there’s no evidence that the NSA’s extraordinary surveillance dragnet, as revealed by Snowden, has disrupted any major attack within the U.S. ever.

The U.S. government initially responded to Snowden’s disclosures in 2013 by suggesting that he had irreparably damaged valuable, life-saving capabilities. Two weeks after the media first reported on Snowden’s leaks, President Barack Obama said that the NSA “averted … at least 50 threats … because of this information,” gathered through communications collection in the United States and abroad.

Members of Congress and the administration alike subsequently repeated that claim, upping the total to 54 attacks thwarted.

But only 13 of the 54 cases “had some nexus to the U.S.,” Senator Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said in a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in October 2013. And they were not all terror “plots”; a majority involved providing “material support,” like money, to foreign terror organizations.

Then-NSA Director Keith Alexander was forced to dial back the rhetoric, eventually saying only that the intelligence programs “contributed to our understanding” and “helped enable the disruption of terrorist plots.”

The only incident the NSA has ever disclosed in which its domestic metadata collection program played a key role involved a San Diego man who was convicted of transferring $8,500 to al Shabaab in Somalia — the terror group responsible for a mass shooting at a mall in Kenya. And the metadata program is the only one that has been reigned in since the Snowden disclosures.

The three other terrorism cases the NSA cited as warrantless surveillance success stories were debunked. Either the government could have gotten a warrant, or it received a tip from British intelligence, or it was a case of fraud, not terrorism.

A White House panel concluded in December 2013 that the NSA’s bulk collection of Americans’ telephone information was “not essential in preventing attacks.” A member of the panel took it one step further, when he told NBC News that there were no examples of the NSA stopping “any [terror attacks] that might have been really big” using the program.

So there is no reason or evidence to support the idea that this program is effective at combating terrorism.

In fact, evidence indicates that the NSA's mass spying apparatus has much more to do with spying on governments, corporations, and civilians than anything involving terrorism.


PBS - Glenn Greenwald (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/government-elections-politics/united-states-of-secrets/the-frontline-interview-glenn-greenwald/)

So much of the spying that we revealed has blatantly nothing to do with terrorism, whether it be spying on oil companies in Brazil, such as Petrobras, or spying on economic summits where governments negotiate economic agreements, or spying on U.S. law firms representing Indonesia in trade talks, or directing the spying system at hundreds of millions or billions of people indiscriminately.

Terrorism is the pretext used to justify the system but is not, in fact, its actual purpose as evidenced by the huge amount of spying they do that have nothing to do with that.

The other aspect to it is, that if you were to have a system that actually was about directed spying, targeted spying aimed at terrorists, you could make the case that the system is about stopping terrorist plots. When you collect billions of emails and telephone calls around the world every day indiscriminately, it actually makes it more difficult to stop terrorist plots because you have such a vast amount of information that it's impossible even to know what it is that you had. What the NSA is doing actually makes detecting terrorist plots harder not easier, on top of destroying people's privacy.

Simply put, there is almost no evidence at all that mass spying is effective at combating terrorism or that it's even about combating terrorism.

In other words, it seems to be nothing more than a totalitarian instrument of exploitation and oppression, just like every other mass spying apparatus in human history.

[stjames1_53]

That damned Obama!

JUST like Bush, who according to left wingnuts was all set to seize a 3rd term!

Will you people just stop, already? Take a deep breath and chill. The scary black man will be gone in January 2017, and you can fumigate the White House and replace all the china.

Obama supporter? You might sound like the kind of guy that wouldn't find it weird to vote him in for a third term
replace the china???.....wtf is it with dumpocrats that think they can clean the WH out after mooching that 8 year term?
and when it comes to government, one should never "chill" the FF warned us that we shouldn't trust government, but challenge it at ever chance..................best got a grip, junior....or you might find yourself on the short end.

[stjames1_53]

DOJ Says Public Has No Right To Know About The Secret Laws The Feds Use To Spy On Us

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130708/01055723732/doj-says-public-has-no-right-to-know-about-secret-laws-feds-use-to-spy-us.shtml

Now these are the hard words of tyranny

[Peter1469]

Doesn't this imply that the State is more important than the individual?

Sorry folks, but this is conflating too meanings of the word "hide."

"Hide" can imply guilt.
Or it can imply "private," as in the need to protect yourself from theft.

All guilty people want privacy, but not all people who want privacy are guilty of something.

The perfect State would ferret out all hiding due to guilt, yet not touch hiding due to desire to protect oneself from crime.

[Peter1469]

That damned Obama!

JUST like Bush, who according to left wingnuts was all set to seize a 3rd term!

Will you people just stop, already? Take a deep breath and chill. The scary black man will be gone in January 2017, and you can fumigate the White House and replace all the china.

... a meme..., and a lie of the hard left.

[OGIS]

Obama supporter? You might sound like the kind of guy that wouldn't find it weird to vote him in for a third term

By no means. I've never voted for the guy.

But I also recognize - and call out - racism-based derp when I see it.

Not even Code Pink Unhinged Brigade went to the Derpcon Level Five derp that con(servative)-artists are going to these days over Obama/Nobama/Obummer.


replace the china???.....wtf is it with dumpocrats that think they can clean the WH out after mooching that 8 year term?

Yeah, I remember Billary stealing the silverware and furniture. Not what I'm talking about. I refer to that wonderful old custom in certain parts of the country where you replace the china when unclean "jig" hands have eaten off of them.


and when it comes to government, one should never "chill" the FF warned us that we shouldn't trust government, but challenge it at ever chance..................best got a grip, junior

Of course you never trust government. Don't teach your grandmother how to suck eggs, son. But it's hilarious how you Useful Idiots and Tools seem to be the first in line to pass all kinds of laws when it suits you. Birth cert to take a dump in a public bathroom? Restrictions and intrusions about wire transfers to other countries, and seizure of private lands by eminent domain to build the Wall, like MisterVeritas suggests? Hey, that's all limited government in action right there, right Billybobboy?


....or you might find yourself on the short end.

Sounds scary. Quick, somebody hold me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k

[OGIS]

... a meme..., and a lie of the hard left.

You've never really explained why that is a bad thing. You just drop into a thread and make grave pronouncements about it.

Did a meme scare your momma when she was preggers with you?

Or are you just be pretentious and a jerk?

And - again with the vague bovine fecal matter - what lie? Be specific and spit it out, son!

[OGIS]

Doesn't this imply that the State is more important than the individual?

No.

[Peter1469]

You've never really explained why that is a bad thing. You just drop into a thread and make grave pronouncements about it.

Did a meme scare your momma when she was preggers with you?

Or are you just be pretentious and a jerk?

And - again with the vague bovine fecal matter - what lie? Be specific and spit it out, son!

It is hard to tell when you are serious and when you are a clown. I am not interested in explaining myself to a clown.

[OGIS]

It is hard to tell when you are serious and when you are a clown. I am not interested in explaining myself to a clown.

Because you can't.

At least be honest with yourself.

[Peter1469]

lol

[stjames1_53]

Doesn't this imply that the State is more important than the individual?

the individual can exist without the State. The state cannot exist without the individual.............

[MisterVeritis]

MY foolishness? Where, exactly, did I say that?You implied it. And that is sufficient.

[MisterVeritis]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter1469 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=1535070#post1535070)
It is hard to tell when you are serious and when you are a clown. I am not interested in explaining myself to a clown.
Because you can't.

At least be honest with yourself.
Wait! You don't think Peter can explain it to you, a clown?

Awesome.

[OGIS]

MY foolishness? Where, exactly, did I say that?


You implied it. And that is sufficient.

Only in your pointy little head.

[stjames1_53]

Because you can't.

At least be honest with yourself.

yeah, clowns don't get it................and that's honest enough