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Peter1469
05-01-2016, 04:28 PM
The Impossibility of Reviving American Manufacturing (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-impossibility-of-reviving-american-manufacturing/479661/)

China could disappear tomorrow and not a lot of manufacturing would return to the US.


Manufacturing accounts for around 12 million U.S. jobs today, (https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/MANEMP) down from a peak of 19 million in 1979. For much of the 1980s and 1990s, the sector puttered along, hovering around 17 million jobs. But something snapped during the 2001 dot-com bust: The industry lost 3 million jobs in three years, and it didn’t rebound. Another 2 million jobs went down the drain during the Great Recession. The sector has shown only tepid growth since.


The truth is, even if China blinked out of existence tomorrow, there just wouldn’t be a need for much of the work America lost. While low-skilled labor dominated manufacturing in decades past, automation and computers have made factory floors both tremendously productive and relatively human-free. A revitalized American manufacturing sector would raise employment, but not to the levels seen in 1979—a heyday that economists say is unlikely to be repeated.


“We couldn’t afford to do that anymore,” said Hal Sirkin, a senior partner at the Boston Consulting Group who studies manufacturing. “People think about manufacturing as back-breaking work, but it’s not that anymore. It has radically changed from a demographic perspective.”



Read more at the link.

Mac-7
05-01-2016, 08:32 PM
I suppose we are expected to accept this as gospel but it is little more than one man's opinion.

his name is andrew mcgill and he is a journalist

Nothing but a journalist

i doubt if he knows the difference between a screwdriver and a hammer

MisterVeritis
05-01-2016, 08:34 PM
i doubt if he knows the difference between a screwdriver and a hammer
One is a drink. What is a hammer?

I always hire a handyman. Just in case.

Dr. Who
05-01-2016, 08:49 PM
I agree to an extent that is true, but then there are all the jobs that have gone offshore to unskilled labor, not that I expect them to come back because even at $7.00 an hour it's not cheap enough.

Mac-7
05-01-2016, 09:04 PM
I agree to an extent that is true, but then there are all the jobs that have gone offshore to unskilled labor, not that I expect them to come back because even at $7.00 an hour it's not cheap enough.

The idea is that American workers should not have to compete with chinese or indians making only pennies per hour.

that means tariffs on imported goods from china and higher prices for American consumers for some products.

journalists like mcgill will complain because his job is secure and does not depend on manufacturing.

but in the long run America will be better off due to increased economic security

zelmo1234
05-01-2016, 09:07 PM
One is a drink. What is a hammer?

I always hire a handyman. Just in case.

What you get after drinking 6 of the first one :)

zelmo1234
05-01-2016, 09:10 PM
there is not much chance until the collapse of the system. Once that happens and the dollar is worthless. then the USA has a huge number of unskilled workers, (look at what todays Public schools are producing) and no social safety net so people have to work for a living. With the buying power of other currencies, the USA could see the manufacturing revival.

Not that it would be a good thing but I don't see how it can be avoided with the Children that are in DC running the country.

Dr. Who
05-01-2016, 09:26 PM
there is not much chance until the collapse of the system. Once that happens and the dollar is worthless. then the USA has a huge number of unskilled workers, (look at what todays Public schools are producing) and no social safety net so people have to work for a living. With the buying power of other currencies, the USA could see the manufacturing revival.

Not that it would be a good thing but I don't see how it can be avoided with the Children that are in DC running the country.
If the US collapsed and the rest of the world did not, I'm afraid the US would get out-competed by automation abroad. Automated processes are far more accurate than human labor.

Dr. Who
05-01-2016, 09:29 PM
The idea is that American workers should not have to compete with chinese or indians making only pennies per hour.

that means tariffs on imported goods from china and higher prices for American consumers for some products.

journalists like mcgill will complain because his job is secure and does not depend on manufacturing.

but in the long run America will be better off due to increased economic security
There may only be 10 years left for semi-skilled American workers to make a living in the industrial sector. Beyond that, virtually all of these jobs will be automated.

zelmo1234
05-01-2016, 11:30 PM
If the US collapsed and the rest of the world did not, I'm afraid the US would get out-competed by automation abroad. Automated processes are far more accurate than human labor.

Why is automation here, not out competing the rest of the world????

Please. Is nobody wants the dollar, imports will be incredibly expensive. And if people have to work to support themselves, they will not be looking for the higher prices.

Insolvency means very little in the form of social safety nets.

Dr. Who
05-01-2016, 11:38 PM
Why is automation here, not out competing the rest of the world????

Please. Is nobody wants the dollar, imports will be incredibly expensive. And if people have to work to support themselves, they will not be looking for the higher prices.

Insolvency means very little in the form of social safety nets.
America is not the most automated country in the world. Automation began in Asia and America has had to adopt automation in order to compete.

William
05-02-2016, 12:02 AM
I have heard that automation will replace most jobs in time, and how this will cause huge problems, specially in the developed world.

But let's look at it this way - if it took a man 8 hours to produce something which sold for $500 dollars before machines were used, and it takes a man half an hour to use the machine to produce the same thing today, why can't the man be paid the same amount (less the cost of maintaining the machine) for working half an hour? The product can still be sold for the same price, and the company can still make the same level of profit.

And if we make sure everyone has a good free education, including university degrees for those who qualify academically, then there will be no shortage of people qualified to operate and maintain the machines or robots used.

zelmo1234
05-02-2016, 12:23 AM
America is not the most automated country in the world. Automation began in Asia and America has had to adopt automation in order to compete.

Wrong! Some of the products that we distribute are built in ASIA, and I have been there, They are people, not machines. Thus the quality difference.

zelmo1234
05-02-2016, 12:27 AM
I have heard that automation will replace most jobs in time, and how this will cause huge problems, specially in the developed world.

But let's look at it this way - if it took a man 8 hours to produce something which sold for $500 dollars before machines were used, and it takes a man half an hour to use the machine to produce the same thing today, why can't the man be paid the same amount (less the cost of maintaining the machine) for working half an hour? The product can still be sold for the same price, and the company can still make the same level of profit.

And if we make sure everyone has a good free education, including university degrees for those who qualify academically, then there will be no shortage of people qualified to operate and maintain the machines or robots used.

What you are talking about is piece work, where workers are paid on production. But what you are talking about is usually someone lowers the price.

In the USA the SS system could be changed into a private investment system, and in 3 generations many would not need to work if they were not inclined to do so.

If poverty world wide gets too wide spread, it will end it a real War.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 06:40 AM
There may only be 10 years left for semi-skilled American workers to make a living in the industrial sector. Beyond that, virtually all of these jobs will be automated.

It depends on whether we have free trade policies or not.

if the world is allowed to dump its products in America they will use low-wage human hands to make those products and American workers will be left without jobs.

And in that case I can see more automation in the manufacturing that remains in America.but it doesnt have to be.

place tariffis on imported goods and the need for automation decreases.

but we are importing far too many foreigners both legally and illegally who will all need jobs too or welfare if they dont work.

Chris
05-02-2016, 08:54 AM
I see a lot of fears and wishful thinking argued here when the fact is manufacturing is down around the world:

https://i.snag.gy/DhrClz.jpg

It's just too expensive in those countries to maintain a manufacturing base, so it shifts to places that can do it cheaply.

Now you can scream or dream about jobs but that fact isn't going to change. You can argue even rationally, realistically, you need a manufacturing base for national defense. But you will never honestly convince people to accept the cost of maintaining a manufacturing base by means of progressive protectionist policies.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 09:14 AM
I see a lot of fears and wishful thinking argued here when the fact is manufacturing is down around the world:

https://i.snag.gy/DhrClz.jpg

It's just too expensive in those countries to maintain a manufacturing base, so it shifts to places that can do it cheaply.



Welfars is cheap?

Crimes committed by poor people with little to do all day cost money too.

The welfare state cannot wipe every nose today even though it tries

adding 100 million more in need of a free ride will only make it worse

Chris
05-02-2016, 09:22 AM
Welfars is cheap?

Crimes committed by poor people with little to do all day cost money too.

The welfare state cannot wipe every nose today even though it tries

adding 100 million more in need of a free ride will only make it worse

I'm not for welfare. Argue that with someone who is.

One question comes to mind though, aren't you just saying move the money redistributed as social welfare to corporate welfare?

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 09:40 AM
I'm not for welfare. Argue that with someone who is.

One question comes to mind though, aren't you just saying move the money redistributed as social welfare to corporate welfare?

im not for welfare either but if all the jobs go to china our liberal friends are going to insist that government give the unemployed people a free ride

corporate welfare?

not really.

the corporations can make money in either case.

before free trade to lefties accused corporation of wanting protectionism.

now we have free trade and the American workers a suffering but corporations are still doing fine

Chris
05-02-2016, 09:43 AM
im not for welfare either but if all the jobs go to china our liberal friends are going to insist that government give the unemployed people a free ride

corporate welfare?

not really.

the corporations can make money in either case.

before free trade to lefties accused corporation of wanting protectionism.

now we have free trade and the American workers a suffering but corporations are still doing fine


How are you going to revive US manufacturing if not by some form of corporate welfare? Progressive protectionist policies means making people pay more to US manufacturers, just another form of redistribution.


We do not have free trade, we have government-managed trade.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 09:45 AM
How are you going to revive US manufacturing if not by some form of corporate welfare? Progressive protectionist policies means making people pay more to US manufacturers, just another form of redistribution.


We do not have free trade, we have government-managed trade.

Place a tariff on imported goods from low wage and low environmental protection nations like china.

then goods can be made in America again

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 09:47 AM
Progressive protectionist policies means .





Btw, the progressives are those pushing for free trade and a single world economy.

Chris
05-02-2016, 09:47 AM
Place a tariff on imported goods from low wage and low environmental proyptection nations like china.

thhen goods can vpbe made in America again

Try reading next time: "Progressive protectionist policies means making people pay more to US manufacturers, just another form of redistribution."

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 09:50 AM
Try reading next time: "Progressive protectionist policies means making people pay more to US manufacturers, just another form of redistribution."

Thats your claim.

with the wipe every nose welfare system you can pay them now or pay them later.

i would rather see Americans working than sitting around on welfare

Chris
05-02-2016, 10:01 AM
Thats your claim.

with the wipe every nose welfare system you can pay them now or pay them later.

i would rather see Americans working than sitting around on welfare


I have provided tons of data to support that. If you raise the price of imports with tariffs above that of US products you will force people to pay more. US manufacturers will also raise their prices to just under the import price. US consumers will pay even more.

That sort of progressive protectionist policy is simply redistribution based on cronyism. Is is corporate welfare. If it increases US jobs, it is social welfare.

I thought you were a Republican.

Chris
05-02-2016, 10:03 AM
Btw, the progressives are those pushing for free trade and a single world economy.

Democrats, like Republicans, both being progressives, push for managed trade not free trade. Neither pushes for a single world economy but for a single world government, that manages trade.

suds00
05-02-2016, 10:04 AM
when people don't understand or reject the facts they attack the messenger.the article is in agreement with economist's views.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 10:15 AM
I have provided tons of data to support that. If you raise the price of imports with tariffs above that of US products you will force people to pay more. US manufacturers will also raise their prices to just under the import price. US consumers will pay even more.

That sort of progressive protectionist policy is simply redistribution based on cronyism. Is is corporate welfare. If it increases US jobs, it is social welfare.

I thought you were a Republican.

The only data that matters is that America has a $300 billion a year trade deficit with china due entirely to free trade.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 10:17 AM
Democrats, like Republicans, both being progressives, push for managed trade not free trade. Neither pushes for a single world economy but for a single world government, that manages trade.

A single world government includes a single world economy and that is what free traders want.

Chris
05-02-2016, 10:26 AM
A single world government includes a single world economy and that is what free traders want.

We've always had a single world free market economy with sovereign states vying to control pieces of it. One world government would simply be final control over it.

Chris
05-02-2016, 10:29 AM
The only data that matters is that America has a $300 billion a year trade deficit with china due entirely to free trade.

An abstract statistical aggregate that misses the fact nations don't trade, people do.

Come on, just be honest with people, you want to take their economic liberty from them and control it for your own agendas and that will hurt them economically. That's what makes you a progressive advocating protectionist policies. Just be open and honest about it. Maybe the people will buy it.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 10:36 AM
An abstract statistical aggregate that misses the fact nations don't trade, people do.

Come on, just be honest with people, you want to take their economic liberty from them and control it for your own agendas and that will hurt them economically. That's what makes you a progressive advocating protectionist policies. Just be open and honest about it. Maybe the people will buy it.

Protectionism is not new.

free trade with china and impoverishing America is your new ie progressive idea.

Chris
05-02-2016, 10:41 AM
Protectionism is not new.

free trade with china and impoverishing America is your new ie progressive idea.

No one said protectionism is new. You can see it in the old mercantilist system, it's described and criticised in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations.

Free trade would be trade free of any regulations. We don't have that. China doesn't have that.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 10:49 AM
No one said protectionism is new. You can see it in the old mercantilist system, it's described and criticised in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations.

Free trade would be trade free of any regulations. We don't have that. China doesn't have that.

Ok.

call it unprotected trade with china if you prefer using lots of words.

we are losing the American dream because of unprotected trade with china.

Chris
05-02-2016, 10:53 AM
Ok.

call it unprotected trade with china if you prefer using lots of words.

we are losing the American dream because of unprotected trade with china.

It's not sex, Mac.

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 10:57 AM
It's not sex, Mac.

You are not clever enough to be funny so dont even try.

someday your grandchildren msy suffer because of your misbegotten ideas on trade and economics

Chris
05-02-2016, 11:05 AM
You are not clever enough to be funny so dont even try.

someday your grandchildren msy suffer because of your misbegotten ideas on trade and economics

lol

Mac-7
05-02-2016, 11:10 AM
lol

I dont find the economic insecurity of future Americans funny.

but it does not surprise me that you do

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 06:18 PM
Wrong! Some of the products that we distribute are built in ASIA, and I have been there, They are people, not machines. Thus the quality difference.I'm not sure what products that you distribute, but the Japanese and Korean auto industry were the first to adopt automation and eventually the American auto industry was forced to follow suit. Both countries are leaders in automation and China is rapidly catching up.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 06:46 PM
It depends on whether we have free trade policies or not.

if the world is allowed to dump its products in America they will use low-wage human hands to make those products and American workers will be left without jobs.

And in that case I can see more automation in the manufacturing that remains in America.but it doesnt have to be.

place tariffis on imported goods and the need for automation decreases.

but we are importing far too many foreigners both legally and illegally who will all need jobs too or welfare if they dont work.
I think that hoping that American manufacturers will eschew automation in favor of human labor is a nice thought but probably not realistic. At some point the cost of investing in automation will easily be cheaper than any human labor and the tech will have advanced to the point where manufacturers will be unable to justify human labor in roles where machines are both cheaper and more capable. That time is rapidly approaching. Like I suggested - 10 years and there will be few employees of, for example, automakers involved on the manufacturing floor other than the robot technicians. However that 10 years could be the difference for career manufacturing employees having, either a pension on which to retire or time to retrain while still earning a living. All of this outsourcing is essentially stranding a couple of generations of factory employees in a no man's land of unemployment or underemployment, which will ultimately create increased pressure on the social safety net.

Peter1469
05-02-2016, 06:51 PM
New jobs will come along. The farriers found other work after Ford killed off their work.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 07:02 PM
An abstract statistical aggregate that misses the fact nations don't trade, people do.

Come on, just be honest with people, you want to take their economic liberty from them and control it for your own agendas and that will hurt them economically. That's what makes you a progressive advocating protectionist policies. Just be open and honest about it. Maybe the people will buy it.
Nations don't trade but they do facilitate trade with other countries - hence government trade missions.

Peter1469
05-02-2016, 07:19 PM
Nations don't trade but they do facilitate trade with other countries - hence government trade missions.

They also collect a lot of taxes due to trade.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 07:25 PM
They also collect a lot of taxes due to trade.
Without taxes, there would be no government, so sources of taxation are important to the funding of government.

Chris
05-02-2016, 07:27 PM
Nations don't trade but they do facilitate trade with other countries - hence government trade missions.

Mostly nations interfere. China undercuts US, US retaliates with tariffs, a trade war starts...and the people suffer.

Trade missions to managed trade.

Chris
05-02-2016, 07:29 PM
New jobs will come along. The farriers found other work after Ford killed off their work.

I see nothing to change that. People get hurt in the process as an immediate effect but over time recover.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 07:54 PM
New jobs will come along. The farriers found other work after Ford killed off their work.
People who have not been involved in the learning process for 20 years or so are not all that adaptable to re-education. Just look at how many people are completely inept when it comes to computers and software. I'm over 60 and am more adept at computers and technology than many people 20 years my junior. Why? Because I have been interested ever since personal computers made an appearance in the market. I have simply been building on a base of knowledge for 30 years, but for people over the age of 40 suddenly introduced to new concepts, the learning curve is very steep and the ability to shift from a life of basic - this one, that one, this one in a factory setting to suddenly having to learn technology is very difficult because the brain has not been taxed at that level for a very long time. For some such people, it wasn't possible even when they were in school. For these types of people, the transferable skills and abilities are very limited. It often comes up in my work when people in these sorts of occupations are injured. They are given an expansive series of tests to determine what they are psychologically, academically and physically capable of doing after an injury robs them of the ability to stand for extensive periods of time or to lift more than 10 pounds. Very often there is virtually nothing that they are capable of doing because they have no real transferable skills nor the ability to learn new skills because there are either not psychologically disposed to doing so or they are so academically deficient (often learning disabled) that it would take too many years to re-educate them. These would be a significant portion of the people working in manual labor occupations today.

The difference with the ferriers of old being introduced to the manufacturing line, is that doing repetitive tasks was common to both activities. There was no steep learning curve. TBH being a ferrier involved more skill and ability.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 08:00 PM
Mostly nations interfere. China undercuts US, US retaliates with tariffs, a trade war starts...and the people suffer.

Trade missions to managed trade.
In the defence of governments, they can pave the way to trade where none previously existed. Absent trade missions, few western businesses would have been able to set up in China, nor would many western interests currently be allowed to export to China. Governments have access that no business would be granted.

Peter1469
05-02-2016, 08:02 PM
People who have not been involved in the learning process for 20 years or so are not all that adaptable to re-education. Just look at how many people are completely inept when it comes to computers and software. I'm over 60 and am more adept at computers and technology than many people 20 years my junior. Why? Because I have been interested ever since personal computers made an appearance in the market. I have simply been building on a base of knowledge for 30 years, but for people over the age of 40 suddenly introduced to new concepts, the learning curve is very steep and the ability to shift from a life of basic - this one, that one, this one in a factory setting to suddenly having to learn technology is very difficult because the brain has not been taxed at that level for a very long time. For some such people, it wasn't possible even when they were in school. For these types of people, the transferable skills and abilities are very limited. It often comes up in my work when people in these sorts of occupations are injured. They are given an expansive series of tests to determine what they are psychologically, academically and physically capable of doing after an injury robs them of the ability to stand for extensive periods of time or to lift more than 10 pounds. Very often there is virtually nothing that they are capable of doing because they have no real transferable skills nor the ability to learn new skills because there are either not psychologically disposed to doing so or they are so academically deficient (often learning disabled) that it would take too many years to re-educate them. These would be a significant portion of the people working in manual labor occupations today.

The difference with the ferriers of old being introduced to the manufacturing line, is that doing repetitive tasks was common to both activities. There was no steep learning curve. TBH being a ferrier involved more skill and ability.

I have more faith in people- they will adapt.

Especially if they don't have "hammock level" government assistance.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 08:15 PM
I have more faith in people- they will adapt.

Especially if they don't have "hammock level" government assistance.
They usually end up driving trucks or buses, if they can sit for a long time, Pete. Otherwise, few over a certain age can transfer to the service industry. They are the collateral damage of the technological shift. They go from middle class to either welfare or minimum wage jobs at fast food joints or perhaps security guard positions.

Peter1469
05-02-2016, 08:17 PM
They usually end up driving trucks or buses, if they can sit for a long time, Pete. Otherwise, few over a certain age can transfer to the service industry. They are the collateral damage of the technological shift. They go from middle class to either welfare or minimum wage jobs at fast food joints or perhaps security guard positions.


You are not going to cause my compassion levels to increase.... :smiley:

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 08:19 PM
You are not going to cause my compassion levels to increase.... :smiley:
I know - you are a grinch.

SurelySimple
05-02-2016, 08:20 PM
The Impossibility of Reviving American Manufacturing (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-impossibility-of-reviving-american-manufacturing/479661/)

China could disappear tomorrow and not a lot of manufacturing would return to the US.



Read more at the link.


I totally agree.........

With the use of robotics.......... reduces the need of people by a factor of 10 some say.....

The new work environment will require an a person to have an education beyond high school and some technical training or skills........Currently there are more than 5 million jobs at this time open and cannot be filled because applicants do not have the skills/education to qualify.... and given the current priority given education the matter will be further an increasing problem........


One of the many issues/problems created by this "new economy" will be "free time".....fewer people working and at reduced time will result in a whole lot of folks with (compared with today) too much time on their hands............so there needs to be created new endeavors to fill that time .......... to name but one of the issues a new economy will create

Chris
05-02-2016, 08:33 PM
In the defence of governments, they can pave the way to trade where none previously existed. Absent trade missions, few western businesses would have been able to set up in China, nor would many western interests currently be allowed to export to China. Governments have access that no business would be granted.

You mean like Obama's trip to Cuba to open up trade. Oh, wait, it was our government shut off trade there. Same with China.

Dr. Who
05-02-2016, 08:45 PM
You mean like Obama's trip to Cuba to open up trade. Oh, wait, it was our government shut off trade there. Same with China.
Yes, about 50 years ago, however, the alienation was based on the communist hysteria of the time.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 02:02 AM
I think that hoping that American manufacturers will eschew automation in favor of human labor is a nice thought but probably not realistic. At some point the cost of investing in automation will easily be cheaper than any human labor and the tech will have advanced to the point where manufacturers will be unable to justify human labor in roles where machines are both cheaper and more capable. That time is rapidly approaching. Like I suggested - 10 years and there will be few employees of, for example, automakers involved on the manufacturing floor other than the robot technicians. However that 10 years could be the difference for career manufacturing employees having, either a pension on which to retire or time to retrain while still earning a living. All of this outsourcing is essentially stranding a couple of generations of factory employees in a no man's land of unemployment or underemployment, which will ultimately create increased pressure on the social safety net.

If people are losing jobs because of robots thats is practically an act of nature.

It may happen in 10 years or like those famous flying cars we were told to expect in the 1930's it might take a little longer.

but right now Americans are losing jobs to cheap chinese labor and zero environmental standards and that is a policy decision of sellout politicians in washington.

Chris
05-03-2016, 06:18 AM
Hilarious. Automation, something man has designed, is natural, but trade, which goes back in the anthropological record to man's beginnings, is not.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 06:56 AM
Hilarious. Automation, something man has designed, is natural, but trade, which goes back in the anthropological record to man's beginnings, is not.

In the spirit of the free market, which I respect, the evolution to automstion is natural when the technology is there and the price is right

humans will do what is in their best interest and I see no way to stop that process and remain a free or relatively free market

but that does not mean we should go completely crazy and put American workers in the welfare line so that verizon can toss you a free iphone every two years when you renew your contract.

Chris
05-03-2016, 07:04 AM
In the spirit of the free market, which I respect, the evolution to automstion is natural when the technology is there and the price is right

humans will do what is in their best interest and I see no way to stop that process and remain a free or relatively free market

but that does not mean we should go completely crazy and put American workers in the welfare line so that verizon can toss you a free iphone every two years when you renew your contract.


humans will do what is in their best interest and I see no way to stop that process and remain a free or relatively free market

And yet when it comes to free trade you contradict yourself and ask government to dictate against the self-interests of the people.

This get funnier all the time.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 07:09 AM
And yet when it comes to free trade you contradict yourself and ask government to dictate against the self-interests of the people.

.

Not at all.

you only care about you

but government is supposed to look out for everybody

Chris
05-03-2016, 07:13 AM
Not at all.

you only care about you

but government is supposed to look out for everybody


http://www.gifsoup.com/view1/1500190/the-great-dictator-globe-o.gif

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 07:25 AM
http://www.gifsoup.com/view1/1500190/the-great-dictator-globe-o.gif

when you can only post silly videos you have lost the argument.

Chris
05-03-2016, 07:32 AM
when you can only post silly videos you have lost the argument.

When you contradict yourself, as you did, repeatedly, it's self-defeating. The Little Dictator segment captures that.

donttread
05-03-2016, 07:35 AM
The Impossibility of Reviving American Manufacturing (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-impossibility-of-reviving-american-manufacturing/479661/)

China could disappear tomorrow and not a lot of manufacturing would return to the US.



Read more at the link.

Local staple economies, a gristmill in every town, clean chemical free food and water and work always available for farm or mill hands

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 11:26 AM
Local staple economies, a gristmill in every town, clean chemical free food and water and work always available for farm or mill hands

Unless we bring manufacturing back to America china will replace us in every meaningful way.

And it wont take very long.

The Sage of Main Street
05-03-2016, 12:09 PM
The Impossibility of Reviving American Manufacturing (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-impossibility-of-reviving-american-manufacturing/479661/)

China could disappear tomorrow and not a lot of manufacturing would return to the US.



Read more at the link. Slick, well-financed sermon trying to justify the bloated wealth sucked out of cheap labor by pretending that coolie sweatshops are an inevitable economic necessity. It wouldn't be hard to replace these scribbling corporate public relations prostitutes with computer programs spewing out the same bilge. In fact, whole libraries of this propaganda could be replaced by swallowing a single blue pill.

The Sage of Main Street
05-03-2016, 12:24 PM
It's not sex, Mac. Unrestricted love of money causes venereal disease. The excess profits of the outsourcing sweatshoppers will cause them to acquire a deficiency in their previous immunity to a fatal revolution.

Common Sense
05-03-2016, 12:26 PM
Manufacturing on the scale that once was, is not coming back to America.

That is unless you don't mind paying $2000 for your phone and $150 for a t shirt.

The Sage of Main Street
05-03-2016, 12:28 PM
Mostly nations interfere. China undercuts US, US retaliates with tariffs, a trade war starts...and the people suffer.

Trade missions to managed trade. There's nothing wrong with war if we win the trade war. Trying to avoid that war is a sure way to lose it when it inevitably comes.

The Sage of Main Street
05-03-2016, 12:38 PM
Unless we bring manufacturing back to America china will replace us in every meaningful way.

And it wont take very long. Repeating what has always happened in history, the overcrowded Chinese will occupy our land as soon as we collapse like all other civilizations have once they refused to make radical changes.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 12:38 PM
Manufacturing on the scale that once was, is not coming back to America.

That is unless you don't mind paying $2000 for your phone and $150 for a t shirt.

Your country never had manufacturing on the scale of America so what would you know about it?

there is no factory job in china that Americans didnt once excel at

Common Sense
05-03-2016, 12:41 PM
Your country never had manufacturing on the scale of America so what would you know about it?

there is no factory job in china that Americans didnt once excel at

Canada had a huge manufacturing base. Probably a tenth of the US's...but we have a tenth of the US population. Much of our manufacturing has left as well.

Americans never excelled at making cell phones, computers etc... The fact is, Americans and Canadians are not willing to pay the price of bringing manufacturing back at the old scale.

I manufacture in Canada. Certainly not on a large scale though. My customers pay a premium for it.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 12:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with war if we win the trade war. Trying to avoid that war is a sure way to lose it when it inevitably comes.

We have a $300 bilion anusl trade deficit with china.

which is 80% of our total trade deficit.

china has far more to lose in a trade war than America does.

And our ability to fight back is going to get weaker if we do nothing.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 12:44 PM
Canada had a huge manufacturing base. Probably a tenth of the US's...but we have a tenth of the US population. Much of our manufacturing has left as well.

Americans never excelled at making cell phones, computers etc... The fact is, Americans and Canadians are not willing to pay the price of bringing manufacturing back at the old scale.

I manufacture in Canada. Certainly not on a large scale though. My customers pay a premium for it.

You do not know what you are talking about.

cell phones were invented in America and manufactured here prior to the clinton trade deal with china.

Common
05-03-2016, 12:51 PM
There is only one way and that is to put Tariffs on every single thing that is american owned and made in another country. Its criminal that american companies can outsource american jobs for dirt cheap labor and then bring that same product back here for FREE and sell it at the same price as if it was american made.

Ronald Reagan put a 25% tariff on every foriegn built motorcycle entering this country, to save Harley Davidson and those jobs. He put a 15% tariff on every foreign vehicle entering this country to save detroit.

We needd 25% tariff on every chinese made piece of crap to make the manufacture, the shipping and the tariff costs not worth it. Make them know you cant go to amazon jungle and make it there you will be subjected to the same import tariff no matter where you make it. The truth is it will never happen because BOTH parties are owned by the same people that outsource and evade paying taxs.

Common Sense
05-03-2016, 12:53 PM
You do not know what you are talking about.

cell phones were invented in America and manufactured here prior to the clinton trade deal with china.

Some of Motorola's phones were once assembled in the US, but were not fully "Made in the USA" ever as far as I can see.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 12:57 PM
Some of Motorola's phones were once assembled in the US, but were not fully "Made in the USA" ever as far as I can see.

They were more than assembled here

Common Sense
05-03-2016, 01:02 PM
They were more than assembled here

Sorry, no. The chips and boards, screens etc... were made overseas and assembled in the US.

You're free to offer some evidence to the contrary.

Common
05-03-2016, 01:05 PM
Sorry, no. The chips and boards, screens etc... were made overseas and assembled in the US.

You're free to offer some evidence to the contrary.

Motorola had a factory in the texas that is now closed
No longer made in USA: Motorola Mobility will shut down factory in Texashttp://www.techtimes.com/articles/7843/20140601/no-longer-made-in-usa-motorola-mobility-will-shut-down-factory-in-texas.htm

Common Sense
05-03-2016, 01:07 PM
Motorola had a factory in the texas that is now closed
No longer made in USA: Motorola Mobility will shut down factory in Texas

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/7843/20140601/no-longer-made-in-usa-motorola-mobility-will-shut-down-factory-in-texas.htm

Yes, that's the article I was reading. Thanks!

"The factory, which assembles Motorola's flagship Moto X Android phone..."

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 01:15 PM
Motorola had a factory in the texas that is now closed
No longer made in USA: Motorola Mobility will shut down factory in Texas

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/7843/20140601/no-longer-made-in-usa-motorola-mobility-will-shut-down-factory-in-texas.htm

Contrary to the info implied in that link motorola cell phone manufacturing did not begin in 2013 when that factory opened

moto has made cell phones since the very beginning of the industry and communication devices as far back as WWII.

Common
05-03-2016, 01:23 PM
Yes, that's the article I was reading. Thanks!

"The factory, which assembles Motorola's flagship Moto X Android phone..."

Well thats true now that i read it again, small chips and parts havent been made in the USA for a long time.
Cant beat 30cts an hour child labor

Common Sense
05-03-2016, 01:24 PM
Contrary to the info implied in that link motorola cell phone manufacturing did not begin in 2013 when that factory opened

moto has made cell phones since the very beginning of the industry and communication devices as far back as WWII.

I'm aware of the history of Motorola. Many of their products have been made in the US in the past. Cellphone components were not.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 01:28 PM
I'm aware of the history of Motorola. Many of their products have been made in the US in the past. Cellphone components were not.

"Many of their products?"

all of them were

particularly cell phones going back the the car phone and then the famous hand-held brick phone.

Peter1469
05-03-2016, 04:20 PM
Unless we bring manufacturing back to America china will replace us in every meaningful way.

And it wont take very long.

No they won't. We just have to innovate and manufacture high quality stuff. Forget about the cheap stuff. Germany's GDP is over 50% from exports.

Chris
05-03-2016, 04:32 PM
No they won't. We just have to innovate and manufacture high quality stuff. Forget about the cheap stuff. Germany's GDP is over 50% from exports.

That I think is key. Look to the future. Just read this the other day...

LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM O CANADA! (http://capitalismmagazine.com/2016/04/laissez-faire-capitalism-o-canada/)


The Canadian Liberal government (similar to the Democrats, but further to the Left) announced its first budget last week, filled with bold promises—and lots of spending of tax payers’ hard-earned money. The government will revive the Canadian economy by “investing” in long-term growth. Besides infrastructure, a particular target of government investment (i.e., spending tax money) is technological innovation, the creation of new products and processes that will enhance productivity and standard of living. So how is the government going to boost innovation?

There is nothing innovative about this government’s approach; its methods are the same as every other statist government’s in the world. It will allocate more tax money to scientific research at the Canadian publically funded universities in the hope that eventually research findings will be translated into innovative products. (This where Canadian companies haven’t performed particularly well). And the government will also channel taxes to support “innovation clusters:” networks in different regions of the country where universities, industry and governments will work together to innovate. How this will happen, other than the $800 million spending commitment, is less than clear...

The article goes on to criticise the move because innovation requires not spending but reason and freedom. Still, if the government is to serve the best interests of the people, it still could be a wise investment.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 05:33 PM
No they won't. We just have to innovate and manufacture high quality stuff. Forget about the cheap stuff. Germany's GDP is over 50% from exports.

germany has their niche but we are not germany and never will be

in wwii germany had the best technology but we out produced them.

next time china will out produce us

Peter1469
05-03-2016, 06:24 PM
germany has their niche but we are not germany and never will be

in wwii germany had the best technology but we out produced them.

next time china will out produce us

China will not out-produce the US outside of the cheap stuff sector. They don't have the culture for it.

Dr. Who
05-03-2016, 07:18 PM
China will not out-produce the US outside of the cheap stuff sector. They don't have the culture for it.China has been busy offering great financial rewards to lure their ex-pat research scientists from western employment and they have a lot of them that are involved in major western projects. Many are going home. I wouldn't assume that they don't have the culture for it. China is a country of sharp contrasts from the rather primitive lifestyles of the rural population to a truly modern urban society. China is looking to the future and heavily investing in research and development to ensure their place in the world. I wouldn't underestimate them.

Mac-7
05-03-2016, 07:33 PM
China will not out-produce the US outside of the cheap stuff sector. They don't have the culture for it.

Underestimsting your enemy can be a fatal mistake.

and I think peter is underestimating china

William
05-03-2016, 10:58 PM
China will not out-produce the US outside of the cheap stuff sector. They don't have the culture for it.

I read somewhere that people in the west said the same thing about Japan about the time of WW2 and just after. Things change, and now even most Japanese TVs and stuff are manufactured in China. Don't you think maybe the Chinese are learning from all this?

But there's no point in complaining about the Chinese if we all rush off to K-Mart and buy their stuff cos it's cheap. Our house is full of stuff made in Germany, but my mum and dad are in a position to spend literally thousands on a dishwasher or a washing machine or TV - not everyone can. So the Chinese will dominate more and more in household goods, as long as we keep buying cheap plastic junk. :undecided:

The Sage of Main Street
05-04-2016, 03:55 PM
You do not know what you are talking about.

cell phones were invented in America and manufactured here prior to the clinton trade deal with china. Are any other countries run by outsourcing traitors? Europe, Russia, Japan--it seems like America is completely different from other advanced economies, which means we will move in a reverse march.

The Sage of Main Street
05-04-2016, 04:02 PM
That I think is key. Look to the future. Just read this the other day...

LAISSEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM O CANADA! (http://capitalismmagazine.com/2016/04/laissez-faire-capitalism-o-canada/)



The article goes on to criticise the move because innovation requires not spending but reason and freedom. Still, if the government is to serve the best interests of the people, it still could be a wise investment. People with talent are rewarded too late. Because of not paying STEM talent while they are learning these skills, our talent pool has been cordoned off so that we only use the shallow end.

The Sage of Main Street
05-04-2016, 04:07 PM
China has been busy offering great financial rewards to lure their ex-pat research scientists from western employment and they have a lot of them that are involved in major western projects. Many are going home. I wouldn't assume that they don't have the culture for it. China is a country of sharp contrasts from the rather primitive lifestyles of the rural population to a truly modern urban society. China is looking to the future and heavily investing in research and development to ensure their place in the world. I wouldn't underestimate them. They should also lure Americans who want to skip out on their student loans. Another drawing point is that submissive Chinese women are the only ones the inhibited geek dorks can handle.