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Peter1469
05-06-2016, 07:43 PM
Trump v Hillary: Nationalism v Globalism (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/trump-vs-hillary-nationalism-vs-globalism-2016-16041)

This is a good distinction between the two. I imagine most people understand the difference between nationalism and globalism and how that affects us as individuals.


The pundits and commentators and pols and prognosticators will all identify multifarious political fault lines to explain the looming epic American battle between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton – women vs. Trump; evangelicals vs. Hillary; Hispanics vs. white, working-class Americans with no college; the LBGT community vs. traditionalists; old vs. young. It’s all important, but not very. Any true understanding of this election requires an appreciation of the one huge political fault line that is driving America into a period of serious political tremors, certain to jolt the political Richter scale. It is nationalists vs. globalists.

Globalists captured much of American society long ago by capturing the bulk of the nation’s elite institutions—the media, academia, big corporations, big finance, Hollywood, think tanks, NGOs, charitable foundations. So powerful are these institutions—in themselves and, even more so, collectively—that the elites running them thought that their political victories were complete and final. That’s why we have witnessed in recent years a quantum expansion of social and political arrogance on the part of these high-flyers.



Then along comes Donald Trump and upends the whole thing. Just about every major issue that this super-rich political neophyte has thrown at the elites turns out to be anti-globalist and pro-nationalist. And that is the single most significant factor in his unprecedented and totally unanticipated rise. Consider some examples:

Read the examples at the link if you want to know more.

zelmo1234
05-06-2016, 08:31 PM
I think that this is a good explanation. Shame that we have 330 million people and we are left with these 2

Peter1469
05-06-2016, 09:00 PM
In another poll, 57% say America first. (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pew-57-say-america-first/article/2590448)


Americans are adopting a foreign policy much closer to Republican Donald Trump than Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton, saying in a new survey that they want an "America First" focus that fixes the U.S. before other countries.
A comprehensive new Pew Research Center poll (http://www.people-press.org/2016/05/05/public-uncertain-divided-over-americas-place-in-the-world/) found that 57 percent agree that America should deal with its own problems. Just 37 percent disagreed. And more than not said America is too helpful internationally.
"The new survey, conducted April 12 to 19 among 2,008 U.S. adults, finds the public remains wary of global involvement," said Pew.

Kurmugeon
05-06-2016, 09:25 PM
Yes, America-First Nationalism is very much behind the rise of Trump.

I see it as a very good and healthy thing, overall...

I just wish Trump were a little less arrogant and obnoxious.

I imagine inventing a "Transmogrifier" and blending Trump with Ben Carson... Dun Trarson.

or would it be Bon Crump?

-

gamewell45
05-06-2016, 09:49 PM
I think that this is a good explanation. Shame that we have 330 million people and we are left with these 2

Why didn't you throw your hat in the ring?? I"m sure your honest and its more then they are.

Common
05-07-2016, 04:28 AM
Weve been told by conservatives, wall street and corporate interests how great globalism is for america.
Now most americans know its been only good for the rich and has hurt the middleclass and the entire working class in america

Americans are sick of our corporations improving the quality of life of communist chinese, enriching themselves and the chinese govt allowing them to become our greatest threat and creating hundreds of billions in trade deficit.

Im voting for Donald Trump, 8 yrs of obama nothing, 8 yrs of hillary would be much more of nothing. Time for change

FindersKeepers
05-07-2016, 04:29 AM
In another poll, 57% say America first. (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/pew-57-say-america-first/article/2590448)

The political pendulum has swung so far to the Left since Obama's been in office, that it's only natural for it to swing back to the Right in matters like this. Even politics tends to seek a balance.

A few decades ago, US kids were still saying the Pledge in classrooms and were taught (rightly or wrongly) that our nation was the grand experiment that succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Then, Obama rode into office on a leftist sentiment of hatred for GWB and all things conservative. In his two terms to date he and his army of elitists have shamed Americans, in general, just for being successful. Business owners, the wealthy, the motivated, those who take pride in our nation -- all were shamed.

We're just now beginning to see the fallout from those ideals-gone-awry.

People WANT to be patriotic. They want to be proud of their nation.

Making them feel as if there was nothing to be proud of might have been Obama's biggest error -- and, that's saying something, seeing as he's made so many huge errors.

Peter1469
05-07-2016, 05:44 AM
I have no doubt that the people of the earth will embrace true globalism, but that is far into the future. What we see today are the concepts being forced on us. The world is not ready for true globalism. The developing nations have to develop first. Additionally, there will have to be a valid reason to "merge" nations.

The nation-state will be the primary actor on the world stage for the foreseeable future.

AeonPax
05-07-2016, 06:03 AM
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Where did the author come up with this crazy idea? - "Globalists are motivated by humanitarian impulses."

Peter1469
05-07-2016, 06:03 AM
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Where did the author come up with this crazy idea? - "Globalists are motivated by humanitarian impulses."


Let's see if he responds.

AeonPax
05-07-2016, 06:04 AM
Let's see if he responds.
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Do you agree with it?

Peter1469
05-07-2016, 06:15 AM
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Do you agree with it?

I think that many are. Certainly not the Establishment- they are evil incarnate.

Mac-7
05-07-2016, 08:56 AM
I think that this is a good explanation. Shame that we have 330 million people and we are left with these 2

Did anyone else champion nationalism to the voters better than trump?

donttread
05-07-2016, 10:16 AM
Trump v Hillary: Nationalism v Globalism (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/trump-vs-hillary-nationalism-vs-globalism-2016-16041)

This is a good distinction between the two. I imagine most people understand the difference between nationalism and globalism and how that affects us as individuals.



Read the examples at the link if you want to know more.

And yet Jill Stein and even Rand Paul, who in an odd way could have become the voice of localism were silenced by the donkephant once again

AeonPax
05-07-2016, 11:24 AM
I think that many are. Certainly not the Establishment- they are evil incarnate.
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"Globalists are motivated by humanitarian impulses." - I disagree with it. Most are motivated by GREED.

Peter1469
05-07-2016, 11:25 AM
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"Globalists are motivated by humanitarian impulses." - I disagree with it. Most are motivated by GREED.

I agree except for lots of common people who believe in globalism.

Peter1469
05-07-2016, 11:26 AM
And yet Jill Stein and even Rand Paul, who in an odd way could have become the voice of localism were silenced by the donkephant once again
"Localism" died long ago. We are in the age of the nation-state, and will be for a good while longer.

MisterVeritis
05-07-2016, 11:34 AM
And yet Jill Stein and even Rand Paul, who in an odd way could have become the voice of localism were silenced by the donkephant once again

No one was silenced. If you cannot generate any interest for your goofy ideas that is your problem.

Mac-7
05-07-2016, 01:48 PM
Weve been told by conservatives, wall street and corporate interests how great globalism is for america.

Im voting for Donald Trump, 8 yrs of obama nothing, 8 yrs of hillary would be much more of nothing. Time for change

Elite conservatives but liberals too

all the rich beautiful people except trump support globalism

donttread
05-08-2016, 09:14 AM
`
"Globalists are motivated by humanitarian impulses." - I disagree with it. Most are motivated by GREED.

Globalism cannot work. There is some ridiculous belief that if we remove nationalism from the picture we will remove hate and discord, but they will still have religion and God knows what else for the power hungry to court the masses to their cause with. Sheep can be taught to hate very small, insignificant differences. Does anyone remember the Star Trek episode where two factions on a planet waged war although both had half black and half white faces. When Kirk pointed that out, they revealed the hatred was over which half of the face was white , the left or the right.
I see localism as the path back to true Republics.

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 09:32 AM
Globalism cannot work. There is some ridiculous belief that if we remove nationalism from the picture we will remove hate and discord, but they will still have religion and God knows what else for the power hungry to court the masses to their cause with. Sheep can be taught to hate very small, insignificant differences. Does anyone remember the Star Trek episode where two factions on a planet waged war although both had half black and half white faces. When Kirk pointed that out, they revealed the hatred was over which half of the face was white , the left or the right.
I see localism as the path back to true Republics.

Globalism will work when the third world catches up. When scarcity is solved, it will really work.

Your localism fetish will only happen after a catastrophe and last only long enough for recovery.

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 10:13 AM
Globalism will work when the third world catches up. When scarcity is solved, it will really work.

Your localism fetish will only happen after a catastrophe and last only long enough for recovery.

Globalism means American workers IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR make less so that workers in impoverished parts of the globe make more.

Naturally people who retire from government service still get their guranteed government pension and are free to sneer at other Americans who are affected by globalism

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 10:28 AM
Globalism means American workers IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR make less so that workers in impoverished parts of the globe make more.

Naturally people who retire from government service still get their guranteed government pension and are free to sneer at other Americans who are affected by globalism


You didn't understand a word that I said in the post you quoted... :smiley:

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 10:47 AM
You didn't understand a word that I said in the post you quoted... :smiley:

I understood your words better than you do.

in peters world the wealth and living standard of 100 million American PRIVATE SECTOR workers will equalize with the pay of 6 billion poor people.

so that if most people outside the rich and government employees live in a shoebox hovel in India so will most people in Indiana and everywhere else in America.

then globalism works just fine.

Ethereal
05-08-2016, 10:50 AM
Globalism means American workers IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR make less so that workers in impoverished parts of the globe make more.

That's just free trade, and it benefits everyone, including American workers in the private sector.

Globalism is a movement that is trying to replace national and local government with global government.

Ethereal
05-08-2016, 10:53 AM
"Localism" died long ago.

It's under assault, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it died.

We still see state and even local governments mounting resistance to national and global interference with drug laws and gun laws, for example.

Ethereal
05-08-2016, 10:55 AM
Globalism will work when the third world catches up. When scarcity is solved, it will really work.

Your localism fetish will only happen after a catastrophe and last only long enough for recovery.

Localism fetish?

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 10:57 AM
That's just free trade, and it benefits everyone, including American workers in the private sector.

Globalism is a movement that is trying to replace national and local government with global government.

Free trade does not benefit everyone.

or practically anyone in America long-term because the country you live in becomes weaker, less middle class and more socialist

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 11:06 AM
I understood your words better than you do.

in peters world the wealth and living standard of 100 million American PRIVATE SECTOR workers will equalize with the pay of 6 billion poor people.

so that if most people outside the rich and government employees live in a shoebox hovel in India so will most people in Indiana and everywhere else in America.

then globalism works just fine.

No you didn't understand the quoted language. This posts confirms it.

We have had threads where we said the US should stress the virtues of trade schools. Not everyone is suited for college. In northern VA a hard working plumber can clear $225K per year.

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 11:08 AM
It's under assault, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it died.

We still see state and even local governments mounting resistance to national and global interference with drug laws and gun laws, for example.

It should exist in the context of federalism.

Ethereal
05-08-2016, 11:08 AM
Free trade does not benefit everyone.

Of course it does.

Trade is the foundation of prosperity throughout the western world.


or practically anyone in America long-term because the country you live in becomes weaker, less middle class and more socialist

How ironic that you're spouting socialist platitudes demonizing free trade while lamenting the increasingly socialist nature of America.

At any rate, free trade is the reason why your electronic goods don't cost ten times as much as they do now.

For some reason, you think the American middle class would be stronger if they were paying $5,000 for a smartphone.

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 11:09 AM
Localism fetish?

Dontread has a odd belief system.

Ethereal
05-08-2016, 11:09 AM
Dontread has a odd belief system.

He's just a libertarian.

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 11:14 AM
He's just a libertarian.

A special one. :smiley:

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 11:35 AM
No you didn't understand the quoted language. This posts confirms it.

We have had threads where we said the US should stress the virtues of trade schools. Not everyone is suited for college. In northern VA a hard working plumber can clear $225K per year.

How much does a plumber in china or india make?

.50 cents an hour I suspect.

which is what American plumbers can expect when globalism succeds in merging the economy and standard of living worldwide.

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 11:40 AM
How much does a plumber in china or india make?

.50 cents an hour I suspect.

which is what American plumbers can expect when globalism succeds in merging the economy and standard of living worldwide.

Off topic.

I am against globalism as things stand today. I am for globalism when the world is ready for it.

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 11:44 AM
Of course it does.

Trade is the foundation of prosperity throughout the western world.



How ironic that you're spouting socialist platitudes demonizing free trade while lamenting the increasingly socialist nature of America.

At any rate, free trade is the reason why your electronic goods don't cost ten times as much as they do now.

For some reason, you think the American middle class would be stronger if they were paying $5,000 for a smartphone.

Thats nonsense.

if smartphones were made in America they would cost more.

But not that much

and you are confusing competition with free trade.

when there are many companies competing for business the consumer gets a better deal.

but if all domestic companies are driven put of the marketplace and replaced by one gigantic simi government controlled company in china the result is less competion and more wealth leaving Ametica than we bring in.

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 11:46 AM
Off topic.

I am against globalism as things stand today. I am for globalism when the world is ready for it.

Ok

lets just say you are agin it till the time comes that you are fer it

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 11:53 AM
Ok

lets just say you are agin it till the time comes that you are fer it

You OK? You aren't stroking out are you?

If that was not deliberate, get yourself to an ER.

Mac-7
05-08-2016, 12:11 PM
You OK? You aren't stroking out are you?

If that was not deliberate, get yourself to an ER.

I'm ok exceot that I think globalism sucks

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 12:17 PM
I'm ok exceot that I think globalism sucks

just checking.

donttread
05-08-2016, 12:37 PM
Globalism will work when the third world catches up. When scarcity is solved, it will really work.

Your localism fetish will only happen after a catastrophe and last only long enough for recovery.

Peter the "small government guy" supporting the biggest possible government of all?
Beside a carrington level event is likely within our lifetimes

Peter1469
05-08-2016, 12:57 PM
Peter the "small government guy" supporting the biggest possible government of all?
Beside a carrington level event is likely within our lifetimes

The Founders' concept of federalism is the core of my version of globalism.

For the public school students: federalism does not mean the federal government has all of the power.

Ethereal
05-08-2016, 05:42 PM
Thats nonsense.

if smartphones were made in America they would cost more.

But not that much

http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/0308factoryworkers.gif

The average cost of an American worker's wage is about twenty-three times more than the average cost of a Chinese worker's.

But the average American worker is about twice as productive, although the average Chinese worker works one-and-a-half times longer.

Factoring in productivity and hours worked, the average American worker costs between ten and fifteen times more than an average Chinese worker.

The Apple IPhone 6 costs about $600 right now.

If it were made by Americans, the cost would increase by a factor of about ten, at a minimum, meaning Americans would have to pay around $6,000 for one.

And that's your idea of helping the middle class.


and you are confusing competition with free trade.

when there are many companies competing for business the consumer gets a better deal.

but if all domestic companies are driven put of the marketplace and replaced by one gigantic simi government controlled company in china the result is less competion and more wealth leaving Ametica than we bring in.

I'm not confusing anything.

Free trade promotes competition.

And we're not talking about "one gigantic semi-government controlled company in China".

We're talking about western corporations like Apple using Chinese labor to keep their prices low.

Mac-7
05-09-2016, 02:06 AM
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/0308factoryworkers.gif

The average cost of an American worker's wage is about twenty-three times more than the average cost of a Chinese worker's.

But the average American worker is about twice as productive, although the average Chinese worker works one-and-a-half times longer.

Factoring in productivity and hours worked, the average American worker costs between ten and fifteen times more than an average Chinese worker.

The Apple IPhone 6 costs about $600 right now.

If it were made by Americans, the cost would increase by a factor of about ten, at a minimum, meaning Americans would have to pay around $6,000 for one.

And that's your idea of helping the middle class.



I'm not confusing anything.

Free trade promotes competition.

And we're not talking about "one gigantic semi-government controlled company in China".

We're talking about western corporations like Apple using Chinese labor to keep their prices low.

An iphone would not cost 10 times as much.

but your chart is useful to show why I do not object to free trade with germany and other euro countries that have similar costs of doing business and worker living standards as the US has.

in order for free teade and the global market to work the wages of American workers must fall till they balance with the wages of a dirt poor chinese or indian.

that is not good for our workers or our country.

donttread
05-09-2016, 08:28 AM
The Founders' concept of federalism is the core of my version of globalism.

For the public school students: federalism does not mean the federal government has all of the power.

I remembered that your version of globalism was somewhat like what we once called "United States" . What I have never heard is how such a thing would be accomplished world wide when we can't even hold onto federalism here in it's birth place. What's the model? How would it work?

Peter1469
05-09-2016, 03:36 PM
I remembered that your version of globalism was somewhat like what we once called "United States" . What I have never heard is how such a thing would be accomplished world wide when we can't even hold onto federalism here in it's birth place. What's the model? How would it work?

We do have to get back to our federalism roots.

Peter1469
05-09-2016, 03:39 PM
An Kerry advances the globalist path (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/kerry-slams-trumps-wall-tells-grads-to-prepare-for-borderless-world/article/2590596): Kerry slams Trump's wall, tells grads to prepare for 'borderless world'

"The future demands from us something more than a nostalgia for some rose-tinted version of the past that did not really exist in any case," he said. "You're about to graduate into a complex and borderless world."

Tahuyaman
05-09-2016, 03:40 PM
Trump v Hillary: Nationalism v Globalism (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/trump-vs-hillary-nationalism-vs-globalism-2016-16041)
I imagine most people understand the difference between nationalism and globalism and how that affects us as individuals.


I'm not willing to agree with you on this one.

Tahuyaman
05-09-2016, 03:43 PM
Weve been told by conservatives, wall street and corporate interests how great globalism is for america.


I'm not sure "conservatives" have been as zealous supporters of globalism as you suggest.

The Sage of Main Street
05-09-2016, 04:16 PM
An iphone would not cost 10 times as much.

but your chart is useful to show why I do not object to free trade with germany and other euro countries that have similar costs of doing business and worker living standards as the US has.

in order for free teade and the global market to work the wages of American workers must fall till they balance with the wages of a dirt poor chinese or indian.

that is not good for our workers or our country. Does Germany outsource its jobs to cheap-labor coolie camps? Did we adopt economic fascism after defeating its military version in World War II? These plutocratic parasites must face the consequences. Cheaters have no right to their wealth, stock, or political power. Their children must have no future here.

Mac-7
05-10-2016, 02:15 AM
Does Germany outsource its jobs to cheap-labor coolie camps? Did we adopt economic fascism after defeating its military version in World War II? These plutocratic parasites must face the consequences. Cheaters have no right to their wealth, stock, or political power. Their children must have no future here.

I am not qualifed to comment on German labor other than to say when I was there Turks were doing most of the dirty jobs much like mexicans are in America.

apparently so many turks have moved to germany they are ready to join with other muslims to take over the whole country.

Mac-7
05-10-2016, 02:18 AM
I'm not sure "conservatives" have been as zealous supporters of globalism as you suggest.

Someday when an unbiased Vulcan historian writes about the rise and fall of America I think he will find plenty of blame on the left and the right and middle for what befell us.

The Sage of Main Street
05-10-2016, 12:14 PM
I am not qualifed to comment on German labor other than to say when I was there Turks were doing most of the dirty jobs much like mexicans are in America.

apparently so many turks have moved to germany they are ready to join with other muslims to take over the whole country. It can't be much of a democracy if the German people are being forced to accept people who have no natural right to be in Europe:

BATTLE OF ZENTA (September 11, 1697 in Serbia)

European dead: 429
Turkish dead: 30,000

Mac-7
05-10-2016, 04:08 PM
It can't be much of a democracy if the German people are being forced to accept people who have no natural right to be in Europe:

BATTLE OF ZENTA (September 11, 1697 in Serbia)

European dead: 429
Turkish dead: 30,000

i suspect that the opponents of mass Muslim migration are less organized and have less legal authority than the government and pro government media

that does sound in democratic, doesn't it?

The Sage of Main Street
05-11-2016, 10:00 AM
i suspect that the opponents of mass Muslim migration are less organized and have less legal authority than the government and pro government media

that does sound in democratic, doesn't it? This weak and contradictory "democracy" that the 18th Century aristocratic guillotine-fodder have passed down to us substitutes for the real power that the majority should have over their pre-owned elitist "representatives."

Peter1469
05-11-2016, 03:53 PM
Right.....

Anyhow, the OP is very timely because a lot of the attacks in the news against Trump or Hillary relate to this fundamental difference between the two.

Peter1469
05-13-2016, 07:21 PM
Update (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2016/05/12/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-jeff-sessions-editorials-debates/84298310/): Senator Sessions defends Trump's nationalism and attacks Hillary's globalism.


For the first time in a long time, this November will give Americans a clear choice on perhaps the most important issue facing our country and our civilization: whether we remain a nation-state that serves its own people, or whether we slide irrevocably toward a soulless globalism that treats humans as interchangeable widgets in the world market.
In Donald Trump, we have a forceful advocate for America. Trump has said that our trade, immigration and foreign policies must be changed to protect the interests of American workers and our nation.
In Hillary Clinton, we have a committed globalist. Clinton was an ardent supporter of the Trans-Pacific Partnership — which surrenders American sovereignty to an international union of 12 countries — and has clearly left the door wide open to enacting the pact if elected.


There is only one sure way to defeat the TPP, and that is to defeat Hillary Clinton.



Read more at the link.

Mac-7
05-13-2016, 09:16 PM
Right.....

Anyhow, the OP is very timely because a lot of the attacks in the news against Trump or Hillary relate to this fundamental difference between the two.

I'm for trump because I am a nationalist too

Mac-7
05-13-2016, 09:17 PM
This weak and contradictory "democracy" that the 18th Century aristocratic guillotine-fodder have passed down to us substitutes for the real power that the majority should have over their pre-owned elitist "representatives."

Thats true for the brits

but like the man said, the krauts didnt know what democracy was till we showed them

Peter1469
05-13-2016, 09:17 PM
Me too. The world is not ready for globalism yet and won't be for a long time.