PDA

View Full Version : tPF Trump: The voice of dissent, or a liabilty?



Refugee
05-20-2016, 10:21 PM
14744



He’s loud, he’s brash, boastful, and visually unappealing, but does that make Trump a white supremacy racist and Nazi?



Trump is a populist who came from nowhere and tapped into the Obama failure years, (http://obamamessiah.blogspot.ru/) an outlet for the false promises which turned into the ridiculous: Is Barack Obama the Messiah? (http://obamamessiah.blogspot.ru/) He represents the anger against the decay of society, (http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/12-signs-that-the-decay-of-society-is-accelerating) the declining middle classes, mass unemployment, a collapsing economy, loss of national identity and all the lies of trying to create a progressive (http://hubpages.com/politics/The-Progressive-Movement) utopia.

The UK has the same, Nigel Farage, a great orator who takes delight in ripping the progressive European Union to shreds, who attracts the same right wing, Nazi labelling. Applying equally in a US government context: "Just who the hell do you think you people are? You are very, very dangerous people indeed" - Radicals (http://www.westernjournalism.com/exclusive-investigative-reports/obama-surrounds-himself-with-the-most-extreme-appointees-in-american-history/).


Farage rips the progressive European Union utopian project apart - classic (YouTube 3 minutes).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gm9q8uabTs


Trump seems to be cast in the same mould, a release valve in campaigns resembling a circus, in which no matter who you vote for nothing changes in a two party system of millionaires, both pretending there’s something uniquely different about them, but with the same sickly smiles and script writers.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - Mencken, H.

In an age where everyone who doesn’t agree is a racist and Nazi, Trump is unique in that he questions that which silences others because of political correctness. This doesn’t always make him right, but conversely, he isn’t trying to create a utopia. Arguably, he adds a much needed democratic voice of dissent, even at the cost of violent backlash and labelling. A one man Tea Party, reminding people that no one ever voted for mass uncontrolled immigration or a multicultural society and that the desire to create a utopia hasn’t worked. Yet ironically, it is those who want to ban free speech and advocate a communist revolution, who accuse others of totalitarianism and hate.



14745



Trump on education
"We're twenty-sixth in the world. Twenty-five countries are better than us at education. And some of them are like third world countries. But we're becoming a third world country" - 2015.
"I have been consistent in my opposition to Common Core. Get rid of Common Core" - 2016.

Just about everyone agrees that the education system is a mess. Collectivised (common core) learning is the default methodology of every totalitarian regime, disguised with Outcome-Based Education; Proficiency-Based Education; Performance-Based Education . . . Termed, Education Reform, and No Child Left Behind.


Part 1 in a series of low educational achievement in American public schools (7 minutes)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoTQAdomYMs


Trump on immigration
"We're going to build a wall; it's going to be built. It's not even — believe it or not — it's not even a difficult thing to do" – 2016.




Hungary-Slovenia, Austria-Hungary, Greece-Turkey border fences

14746



"This (multicultural) approach has failed, utterly failed" – 2010. Angela Merkel, German Chancellor.
"Everything which is now taking place before our eyes threatens to have explosive consequences for the whole of Europe, Europe’s response is madness
" – 2015. Viktor Orbán, Hungarian Prime Minister.


Trump on gun control
"When you look at Paris – the toughest gun laws in the world – nobody had guns but the bad guys. They were just shooting them one by one " - 2015.



The Muslim terrorist attack in France, November 2015. 130 dead, hundreds wounded, 100 critical
People gathering like sheep on the pitch in the Stade de France waiting to die

14747


Obama – "Outrageous attempt to terrorize innocent civilians." Obama said he would not speculate about who was responsible (Refuses to mention the word, Muslim).
Angela Merkel German Chancellor – "Deeply shaken by the news and pictures reaching us from Paris.”Her thoughts were with "the victims of the apparent terrorist attack" (Apparent?).

Will Trump win? Probably not, but if he did, in an almost intentional return to a form of McCarthyism, he would have to go through the entire education system, government, judiciary and all spheres of public life and cleanse the social institutions of the Emanuel Rahms, Barbara Boxer’s, Loretta Lynch’s . . . a complete spring clean to enable the return of constitutional values stop this kind of indoctrinated nonsense (YouTube 2 minutes).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA

Alternatively, if Hillary Clinton wins, Trump and any alternative dissent would probably be banned from the media by the next election, which becomes the opposite of freedom. If America had listened more to the Founding Fathers instead of Marxism repackaged as "Change you can believe in," the need for a Trump wouldn’t exist.

Dr. Who
05-20-2016, 10:31 PM
14744


He’s loud, he’s brash, boastful, and visually unappealing, but does that make Trump a white supremacy racist and Nazi?


Trump is a populist who came from nowhere and tapped into the Obama failure years, (http://obamamessiah.blogspot.ru/) an outlet for the false promises which turned into the ridiculous: Is Barack Obama the Messiah? (http://obamamessiah.blogspot.ru/) He represents the anger against the decay of society, (http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/12-signs-that-the-decay-of-society-is-accelerating) the declining middle classes, mass unemployment, a collapsing economy, loss of national identity and all the lies of trying to create a progressive (http://hubpages.com/politics/The-Progressive-Movement) utopia.

The UK has the same, Nigel Farage, a great orator who takes delight in ripping the progressive European Union to shreds, who attracts the same right wing, Nazi labelling. Applying equally in a US government context: "Just who the hell do you think you people are? You are very, very dangerous people indeed" - Radicals (http://www.westernjournalism.com/exclusive-investigative-reports/obama-surrounds-himself-with-the-most-extreme-appointees-in-american-history/).


Farage rips the progressive European Union utopian project apart - classic (YouTube 3 minutes).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gm9q8uabTs


Trump seems to be cast in the same mould, a release valve in campaigns resembling a circus, in which no matter who you vote for nothing changes in a two party system of millionaires, both pretending there’s something uniquely different about them, but with the same sickly smiles and script writers.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - Mencken, H.

In an age where everyone who doesn’t agree is a racist and Nazi, Trump is unique in that he questions that which silences others because of political correctness. This doesn’t always make him right, but conversely, he isn’t trying to create a utopia. Arguably, he adds a much needed democratic voice of dissent, even at the cost of violent backlash and labelling. A one man Tea Party, reminding people that no one ever voted for mass uncontrolled immigration or a multicultural society and that the desire to create a utopia hasn’t worked. Yet ironically, it is those who want to ban free speech and advocate a communist revolution, who accuse others of totalitarianism and hate.



14745



Trump on education

"We're twenty-sixth in the world. Twenty-five countries are better than us at education. And some of them are like third world countries. But we're becoming a third world country" - 2015.
"I have been consistent in my opposition to Common Core. Get rid of Common Core" - 2016.

Just about everyone agrees that the education system is a mess. Collectivised (common core) learning is the default methodology of every totalitarian regime, disguised with Outcome-Based Education; Proficiency-Based Education; Performance-Based Education . . . Termed, Education Reform, and No Child Left Behind.


Part 1 in a series of low educational achievement in American public schools (7 minutes)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoTQAdomYMs


Trump on immigration

"We're going to build a wall; it's going to be built. It's not even — believe it or not — it's not even a difficult thing to do" – 2016.




(YouTube 10 minutes). Hungary-Slovenia, Austria-Hungary, Greece-Turkey border fences

14746



"This (multicultural) approach has failed, utterly failed" – 2010. Angela Merkel, German Chancellor.
"Everything which is now taking place before our eyes threatens to have explosive consequences for the whole of Europe, Europe’s response is madness
" – 2015. Viktor Orbán, Hungarian Prime Minister.


Trump on gun control

"When you look at Paris – the toughest gun laws in the world – nobody had guns but the bad guys. They were just shooting them one by one " - 2015.



The Muslim terrorist attack in France, November 2015. 130 dead, hundreds wounded, 100 critical
People gathering like sheep on the pitch in the Stade de France waiting to die

14747


Obama – "Outrageous attempt to terrorize innocent civilians." Obama said he would not speculate about who was responsible (Refuses to mention the word, Muslim).
Angela Merkel German Chancellor – "Deeply shaken by the news and pictures reaching us from Paris.”Her thoughts were with "the victims of the apparent terrorist attack" (Apparent?).

Will Trump win? Probably not, but if he did, in an almost intentional return to a form of McCarthyism, he would have to go through the entire education system, government, judiciary and all spheres of public life and cleanse the social institutions of the Emanuel Rahms, Barbara Boxer’s, Loretta Lynch’s . . . a complete spring clean to enable the return of constitutional values stop this kind of indoctrinated nonsense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJFC1qFCgyA) (YouTube 2 minutes).

Alternatively, if Hillary Clinton wins, Trump and any alternative dissent would probably be banned from the media by the next election, which becomes the opposite of freedom. If America had listened more to the Founding Fathers instead of Marxism repackaged as "Change you can believe in," the need for a Trump wouldn’t exist.


McCarthyism is not a revered episode in American history. It is basically viewed as a hysterical witch hunt that virtually destroyed the careers of many talented people for one-time political interests. Tolerance for that kind of virtually fascist government is unlikely to materialize.

Peter1469
05-20-2016, 10:36 PM
Except most of the targets were communists. And the House was the big communist hunter. Not the Senate.

Dr. Who
05-20-2016, 10:48 PM
Except most of the targets were communists. And the House was the big communist hunter. Not the Senate.
They weren't even communists - often they dabbled in communism as students, but were no longer members of the communist party. It was like the Salem witch trials absent the death penalty. It was a travesty even if the Senate wasn't involved. It would be no different than if holding libertarian views was suddenly considered un-American. It was pretty fascist.

Refugee
05-20-2016, 10:52 PM
McCarthyism is not a revered episode in American history. It is basically viewed as a hysterical witch hunt that virtually destroyed the careers of many talented people for one-time political interests. Tolerance for that kind of virtually fascist government is unlikely to materialize.

Yes, I agree that in those times it was a witch hunt, the cold war and all that. However, today you have an active power base intentionally trying to destroy America from within. It’s making huge inroads and today the threat is very real, not imagined. When tens of millions elect a Marxist not knowing what that means and promote him to a Godlike status, you’ve got a very real problem. In my opinion, America has lost its middle ground and the liberal fascism (progressivism) now comes from the Democrats.

The communist students who ‘dabbled’ are now the leaders across the western world Dr. Who. Read up on the backgrounds of Sanders, Clinton and Obama, posing as Democrats. Bernie Madoff never admitted he had a Ponzi scheme either.

Dr. Who
05-20-2016, 11:21 PM
Yes, I agree that in those times it was a witch hunt, the cold war and all that. However, today you have an active power base intentionally trying to destroy America from within. It’s making huge inroads and today the threat is very real, not imagined. When tens of millions elect a Marxist not knowing what that means and promote him to a Godlike status, you’ve got a very real problem. In my opinion, America has lost its middle ground and the liberal fascism (progressivism) now comes from the Democrats.

The communist students who ‘dabbled’ are now the leaders across the western world Dr. Who. Read up on the backgrounds of Sanders, Clinton and Obama, posing as Democrats. Bernie Madoff never admitted he had a Ponzi scheme either.
This really depends on what form of government that one finds preferable. Marxism is not the only definition of socialism and everyone doesn't find the emotionally sterile aspects of libertarianism palatable.

Common
05-20-2016, 11:31 PM
Over analyzing, trump is simply the alternative to the far left and the far right. Every so often there is a rejection of over bearing special interest politics, whether its right or left. The american people are fed up with the Policies of special interest from obama and the polar opposite special interest politics of the teapary right of the house. BOTH special interests comepletely screwed, ignored and took from the majority of americans.

Subdermal
05-20-2016, 11:38 PM
They weren't even communists - often they dabbled in communism as students, but were no longer members of the communist party. It was like the Salem witch trials absent the death penalty. It was a travesty even if the Senate wasn't involved. It would be no different than if holding libertarian views was suddenly considered un-American. It was pretty fascist.

Uh huh.

Opposition to communism does not mean that the opponent is fascist.

Refugee
05-21-2016, 12:14 AM
This really depends on what form of government that one finds preferable. Marxism is not the only definition of socialism and everyone doesn't find the emotionally sterile aspects of libertarianism palatable.

My point is that people do not readily admit to Marxism, it has a rather nasty past, which is why it’s now termed progressivism, often termed progress, change or forwards, to make it more palatable. It’s why people like Obama and Hillary disguise themselves and hide within the Democrat party. To be fair to Sanders, he does come straight out and tell you what he is.

The ignorance of trying to provide an unattainable equality, spread the wealth around and create a utopia, all communist ideals, from a majority electorate who can’t make the connection between liberal fascism, progressivism and communism, is being laughed at even by former communists themselves.

This is embarrassing
Pravda tells you what Obama is (http://www.pravdareport.com/opinion/columnists/19-11-2012/122849-obama_soviet_mistake-0/)

This is very embarrassing
Obama the Messiah (http://obamamessiah.blogspot.hk/)

And this is just dumb and something to raise a smile, but multiplied by millions it doesn’t bode well for the future


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWfGKt0aZLI

FindersKeepers
05-21-2016, 04:01 AM
Trump is a cathartic -- a purgative of political correctness.

Liberals and conservatives, alike, should be taking note of the atmosphere in this nation because people are NOT happy with the status quo and backing a Trump personae is only the tip of the iceberg. (The iceberg that may or may not be melting due to man-made causes.)

The two presumptive candidates do not represent the best and brightest America has to offer -- Hillary represents a quarter-century step backward and Trump represents a step into the great unknown.

Trump may try to undo Obama's policies -- and that just might repair our relationship with Russia -- while Hillary will move us closer to conflict on that front. Both will undo the PPACA -- or, rather, change it because right now it's just little more than cronyism between the government and the insurance industry. Trump will crack down on illegal immigration, and that, alone, might be enough to convince many to hold their noses and vote for him.

Neither will be able to return our nation to being a strong republic based on federalism as it was initially intended. Pandora's Box is open -- there's no putting the lid back on.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 06:06 AM
They weren't even communists - often they dabbled in communism as students, but were no longer members of the communist party. It was like the Salem witch trials absent the death penalty. It was a travesty even if the Senate wasn't involved. It would be no different than if holding libertarian views was suddenly considered un-American. It was pretty fascist.

McCarthy was right most of the time. Again, the House Un-American Activities Committee was the source of the main stuff complained about. McCarthy was not a Representative. He was a Senator.

After the fall of the Soviet Union historians found documents proving the extent that communism had infiltrated America. Even people who still think McCarthy was wrong admit that (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html).




In retrospect, McCarthy's disgrace and obloquy has come at a certain price to historical truth. He has become so taboo a figure, someone presented only in Rovere-style caricature rather than flesh and blood, that confusion and ignorance about what he did and the times in which he operated are widespread. Books like David Caute's The Great Fear, which implicitly compared the anti-Communist crusade of the fifties to Stalin's Great Terror, or Ellen Schrecker's Many Are the Crimes: McCarthyism in America, can portray the entire period in the most terrifyingly nightmarish colors, and be believed. So part of dispelling the myths about Joe McCarthy has to include dispelling the myths about the 1950s and the so-called red scare.

We need to remember that during the entire period, from 1947 to 1958, no American citizens were interrogated without benefit of legal counsel, none was arrested or detained without due judicial process, and no one went to jail without trial. As George Kennan, no admirer of the investigations, stated, "Whoever could get his case before a court was generally assured of meeting there with a level of justice no smaller than at any time in recent American history." All through the "worst" of the McCarthy period, the Communist Party itself was never outlawed, membership in the party was never declared a crime, and it continued to maintain public offices, publish books and the Daily Worker, and recruit new members (admittedly a tough sell by then).


In fact, most of what people ordinarily mean when they talk about the "red scare" — the House Un-American Activities Committee; anti-Communist probes into Hollywood, labor unions, and America's schools and universities; the Rosenberg trial; blacklisting in the media and schoolteachers fired for disloyalty — had nothing to do with McCarthy and he had nothing to do with them (although when asked, he generally approved of them, as most other Americans did). McCarthy's own committee in the Senate, the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, which he chaired for less than two years, had a specific duty to investigate communism in the federal government and among government employees. It had done so before he became chairman, and it did so after he left, under Senator John McClellan and Bobby Kennedy. The men and women McCarthy targeted, rightly or wrongly, as Communists or Communist sympathizers all shared that single characteristic: they were federal employees and public servants, and therefore, McCarthy and his supporters argued, they ought be held accountable to a higher standard than other American citizens.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 06:09 AM
Uh huh.

Opposition to communism does not mean that the opponent is fascist.

Some people thinks that helps their argument. :smiley: It doesn't. I also ran across this quote about Fascism that dispels the myth that it is right wing (except to communists).


Given that the nineteenth century was the century of Socialism, of Liberalism, and of Democracy, it does not necessarily follow that the twentieth century must also be a century of Socialism, Liberalism and Democracy: political doctrines pass, but humanity remains, and it may rather be expected that this will be a century of authority...a century of Fascism. For if the nineteenth century was a century of individualism it may be expected that this will be the century of collectivism and hence the century of the State....

---- Benito Mussolini (coined the term "Fascism")

Refugee
05-21-2016, 07:06 AM
Some people thinks that helps their argument. :smiley: It doesn't. I also ran across this quote about Fascism that dispels the myth that it is right wing (except to communists).

There’s a lot of ambiguity in the definition of fascism. It’s seen as referring to the right, but applies equally to the left in liberal fascism, which is why the term was abandoned by the left for progressivism. Both forms of socialism, one national and the other international put the state above the individual. All these ideologies have nasty pasts and we live in an era of intentional disguise, where it’s often difficult to define what is represented.

Communism and liberal fascism become progressivism and patriotism, as distinct from nationalism, becomes fascism silenced by cultural Marxism political correctness, which in turn disguises liberal fascist progressivism. It’s a bit of an ideological minefield and why many get stuck in definitions which centre on a clear cut definition, which intentionally sets out to mislead and deceive. It’s how a radical cultural Marxist can be elected as a Democrat, be progressive, yet many view as a socialist – if that makes sense :smiley:

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 07:16 AM
There’s a lot of ambiguity in the definition of fascism. It’s seen as referring to the right, but applies equally to the left in liberal fascism, which is why the term was abandoned by the left for progressivism. Both forms of socialism, one national and the other international put the state above the individual. All these ideologies have nasty pasts and we live in an era of intentional disguise, where it’s often difficult to define what is represented.

Communism and liberal fascism become progressivism and patriotism, as distinct from nationalism, becomes fascism silenced by cultural Marxism political correctness, which in turn disguises liberal fascist progressivism. It’s a bit of an ideological minefield and why many get stuck in definitions which centre on a clear cut definition, which intentionally sets out to mislead and deceive. It’s how a radical cultural Marxist can be elected as a Democrat, be progressive, yet many view as a socialist – if that makes sense :smiley:

There is a lot of confusion with what is left and what is right. Much of it caused by bickering between fascists and communists.

Today many people would have us believe that a proper political model has authoritarians on the left and the right. I think that is nonsense- it is designed to confuse and is ultimately worthless as a tool.

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 08:13 AM
McCarthyism is not a revered episode in American history. It is basically viewed as a hysterical witch hunt that virtually destroyed the careers of many talented people for one-time political interests. Tolerance for that kind of virtually fascist government is unlikely to materialize.
How do you manage to stay so wrong?

McCarthy was right. The State Department was filled with communists working for the Soviet Union. Ditto the White House. There was nothing hysterical about it.

We will need to cleanse the government of its radical Leftists. Fire every damned lawyer. No exceptions. Completely zero out the Education Department and reduce the EPA to a small advisory board with no police powers. Work through every unconstitutional Independent agency. Fire everyone from the top down. Eliminate all of their police powers. Take away their guns. Reduce them to advisory roles only. Go through the parking lots. Anyone with an Obama sticker or a goofy Co-exist sticker needs to be fired by the end of the day.

It is a good thing I have no strong opinions about what must be done if the nation is to be saved.

Refugee
05-21-2016, 09:18 AM
There is a lot of confusion with what is left and what is right. Much of it caused by bickering between fascists and communists.

Today many people would have us believe that a proper political model has authoritarians on the left and the right. I think that is nonsense- it is designed to confuse and is ultimately worthless as a tool.

Well actually Peter, there are authoritarians on either side. Look at ideologies as circular, not linear left v right and they both meet at the bottom of the circle. It’s here you get a choice; a Gulag or a concentration camp, the Gestapo or the KGB, or updated to the modern Federal Emergency Management Agency camp accommodation. Alternatively, you can choose exile, or marginalisation in a housing project on government welfare, or a corporate minimum wage. In another era, too much free speech would have you in front of a revolutionary workers council, or alternatively, an un-American Activities Committee.

People often criticise McCarthyism, but in my opinion I don’t think American need beat itself up too much over that. Those who faced the reverse accusations elsewhere under revolutionary workers committees fared a lot worse.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 09:22 AM
Well actually Peter, there are authoritarians on either side. Look at ideologies as circular, not linear left v right and they both meet at the bottom of the circle. It’s here you get a choice; a Gulag or a concentration camp, the Gestapo or the KGB, or updated to the modern Federal Emergency Management Agency camp accommodation. Alternatively, you can choose exile, or marginalisation in a housing project on government welfare, or a corporate minimum wage. In another era, too much free speech would have you in front of a revolutionary workers council, or alternatively, an un-American Activities Committee.

People often criticise McCarthyism, but in my opinion I don’t think American need beat itself up too much over that. Those who faced the reverse accusations elsewhere under revolutionary workers committees fared a lot worse.

There are many political models. I have explained the one that I use in discussion and why.

It is easy. It does not put authoritarians all over the spectrum. Anyone can understand it easy with little explanation.

Dr. Who
05-21-2016, 09:24 AM
Uh huh.

Opposition to communism does not mean that the opponent is fascist.
The methodology was very fascist-like.

Dr. Who
05-21-2016, 09:48 AM
McCarthy was right most of the time. Again, the House Un-American Activities Committee was the source of the main stuff complained about. McCarthy was not a Representative. He was a Senator.

After the fall of the Soviet Union historians found documents proving the extent that communism had infiltrated America. Even people who still think McCarthy was wrong admit that (http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html).

The era was named for McCarthy, since he initiated it, even if his suspicions with respect to some government employees were true. What I find truly bizarre is the notion of making a political philosophy essentially illegal - unAmerican. A person could believe in socialism or even communism, but not be a traitor to their own country or at the time a supporter of the USSR. If government was being truly infiltrated, it was by spies for a foreign regime, which is an entirely different matter than people having a philosophical preference for something other than pure capitalism.

Dr. Who
05-21-2016, 09:59 AM
Some people thinks that helps their argument. :smiley: It doesn't. I also ran across this quote about Fascism that dispels the myth that it is right wing (except to communists).
Fascist is also used as an adjective to describe the methods employed by such regimes when they wished to suppress opinion that they did not like.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 10:06 AM
Fascist is also used as an adjective to describe the methods employed by such regimes when they wished to suppress opinion that they did not like.

Authoritarian control. Hard left.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 10:06 AM
McCarthy was correct.

Plenty of people didn't appreciate the communists being outed.


The era was named for McCarthy, since he initiated it, even if his suspicions with respect to some government employees were true. What I find truly bizarre is the notion of making a political philosophy essentially illegal - unAmerican. A person could believe in socialism or even communism, but not be a traitor to their own country or at the time a supporter of the USSR. If government was being truly infiltrated, it was by spies for a foreign regime, which is an entirely different matter than people having a philosophical preference for something other than pure capitalism.

birddog
05-21-2016, 10:17 AM
How do you manage to stay so wrong?

McCarthy was right. The State Department was filled with communists working for the Soviet Union. Ditto the White House. There was nothing hysterical about it.

We will need to cleanse the government of its radical Leftists. Fire every damned lawyer. No exceptions. Completely zero out the Education Department and reduce the EPA to a small advisory board with no police powers. Work through every unconstitutional Independent agency. Fire everyone from the top down. Eliminate all of their police powers. Take away their guns. Reduce them to advisory roles only. Go through the parking lots. Anyone with an Obama sticker or a goofy Co-exist sticker needs to be fired by the end of the day.

It is a good thing I have no strong opinions about what must be done if the nation is to be saved.


Appears sensible and accurate to me.:greatjob:

Crepitus
05-21-2016, 11:20 AM
Some people thinks that helps their argument. :smiley: It doesn't. I also ran across this quote about Fascism that dispels the myth that it is right wing (except to communists).
It might even be true if the American right wasn't so far into authoritarianism.

That said neither party is really fascist.

Crepitus
05-21-2016, 11:26 AM
There are many political models. I have explained the one that I use in discussion and why.

It is easy. It does not put authoritarians all over the spectrum. Anyone can understand it easy with little explanation.
But authoritarians are all over the spectrum. Your chosen model doesn't fit the reality we live in.

Crepitus
05-21-2016, 11:26 AM
Authoritarian control. Hard left.
Nuh uh.

Both sides.

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 11:55 AM
But authoritarians are all over the spectrum. Your chosen model doesn't fit the reality we live in.
Is your model of any actual value to you?

The state is one one side. The individual is on the other. A state can be more authoritarian or less. An individual can be more free or less free. The greater authority the state exerts the less freedom an individual has.

It is a simple, useful model. If individual liberty is important then state powers must be limited. If the authority of the state is essential to you then the individual must be crushed. Any entity that gets in the way must be crushed.

It is very clear where most of the people who self-identify as left fall. The state is above everything. A few of you regularly gloat that the federal government has the power to crush individuals, businesses or states who do not knuckle under to the constant bullying. For most of you, authoritarian statism is your default position. Authoritarian statism includes national and international socialism, fascism, Progressivism, Liberalism, Libertarian-Leftism, plus any other name you choose periodically to conceal your intentions.

Chris
05-21-2016, 12:00 PM
Trump is a populist authoritarian, both mentioned above. His popularity is explained in the following video by a shift of authoritarianism from the left Democrats to the right Republicans going on for some time now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YU9djt_CQM

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 12:05 PM
Trump is a populist authoritarian, both mentioned above. His popularity is explained in the following video by a shift of authoritarianism from the left Democrats to the right Republicans going on for some time now.

Nonsense.

Chris
05-21-2016, 12:08 PM
Nonsense.

What's nonsense?

People are increasingly frustrated that the government they depend on is not living up to their romantic ideals, and so they demand more, and that comes in the form of an authoritarian who promises to fix things. That's populism.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 12:30 PM
It might even be true if the American right wasn't so far into authoritarianism.

That said neither party is really fascist.

Yes, I consider those on the right who want the government to impose their will on us to be Statists. Just as leftists are Statists.

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 12:36 PM
What's nonsense?

People are increasingly frustrated that the government they depend on is not living up to their romantic ideals, and so they demand more, and that comes in the form of an authoritarian who promises to fix things. That's populism.
If you go through and pull out each of the woman's nonsensical statements I will begin to address them.

The Establishment Republicans betrayed the voters. I cannot recall hearing that mentioned in the leftist analysis.

Nonsense.

Chris
05-21-2016, 12:39 PM
If you go through and pull out each of the woman's nonsensical statements I will begin to address them.

The Establishment Republicans betrayed the voters. I cannot recall hearing that mentioned in the leftist analysis.

Nonsense.


Your nonsense is unrelated to what I posted.

Crepitus
05-21-2016, 02:48 PM
Yes, I consider those on the right who want the government to impose their will on us to be Statists. Just as leftists are Statists.
Statist isn't the dirty word some here seem to think it is.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 02:51 PM
Statist isn't the dirty word some here seem to think it is.

Right. They believe that they are entitled to the Life of Julia. (http://www.thelifeofjulia.com)

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 02:56 PM
Your nonsense is unrelated to what I posted.
Did you post the idiotic video that pretended to explain Trump's rise in popularity? Or was that some other Chris?

Crepitus
05-21-2016, 02:57 PM
Right. They believe that they are entitled to the Life of Julia. (http://www.thelifeofjulia.com)
Well that isn't biased or stilted at all.:rollseyes:

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 03:15 PM
Statist isn't the dirty word some here seem to think it is.
That is true if you are a statist. Otherwise it is a dirty word.

The Xl
05-21-2016, 03:18 PM
If we had anything resembling a legit political process, he'd be a joke, but our system is so broken and our politicians are so corrupt that he's the best thing to happen in a while. At the very least, regardless of his merits, he's exposing the system and key players like Hillary.

Chris
05-21-2016, 03:40 PM
Did you post the idiotic video that pretended to explain Trump's rise in popularity? Or was that some other Chris?

I posted a video. How many replied is this that you've said nothing about it?

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 04:17 PM
Well that isn't biased or stilted at all.:rollseyes:

A bit for humor. But the central point is valid.

Refugee
05-21-2016, 05:40 PM
In the US, the more ‘freedom’ that has been given corresponds to a rise in the control by the state. The freedom not to work and live off welfare, which produces a rise in relative poverty, which then becomes the fault of the rich, which entails spreading the wealth around, which means more taxation . . . All done in the name of equality, which produces affirmative action and if you don’t agree you must be a racist, which entails laws to prevent racism and if you object political correctness to curtail free speech . . . it’s continuous and never ending.

Look at the video (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/63239-Don-t-be-fooled-this-is-progressivism), look at the part 3.10 - 3.50 minutes and you’ll laugh at this, but this what State control looks like in practice in the UK under a progressive (statist) European Union. The backlash in the European Union is the rise of far right (Statist) nationalists to combat far left (Statist) Marxists.
The State, or the government, is simply a collection of individuals who become elite by virtue of the fact that they are able to control society. In the US, too much of it produced Obama as the backlash to Republican Bush and Trump as the backlash to Democrat Obama.

In a bizarre twist of irony, the left view the state as providing the very freedoms that produce authoritarian and then complain about the restrictions imposed.

Peter1469
05-21-2016, 05:57 PM
In the US, the more ‘freedom’ that has been given corresponds to a rise in the control by the state. The freedom not to work and live off welfare, which produces a rise in relative poverty, which then becomes the fault of the rich, which entails spreading the wealth around, which means more taxation . . . All done in the name of equality, which produces affirmative action and if you don’t agree you must be a racist, which entails laws to prevent racism and if you object political correctness to curtail free speech . . . it’s continuous and never ending.

Look at the video (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/63239-Don-t-be-fooled-this-is-progressivism), look at the part 3.10 - 3.50 minutes and you’ll laugh at this, but this what State control looks like in practice in the UK under a progressive (statist) European Union. The backlash in the European Union is the rise of far right (Statist) nationalists to combat far left (Statist) Marxists.
The State, or the government, is simply a collection of individuals who become elite by virtue of the fact that they are able to control society. In the US, too much of it produced Obama as the backlash to Republican Bush and Trump as the backlash to Democrat Obama.

In a bizarre twist of irony, the left view the state as providing the very freedoms that produce authoritarian and then complain about the restrictions imposed.

Size increased to be readable.

Crepitus
05-21-2016, 06:23 PM
A bit for humor. But the central point is valid.

It's exaggerated to extremes.

Look at it this way:.

Power accumulates. Think about where it accumulates. Usually with wealthy people or corporations, religious leaders, and yes governments whether elected or dictatorial.

And I'm sure you will agree that once these entities acquire power they want to hold on to it so they will oppress the common man (us that is) to ensure that no-one can challenge their power.

Of course it would be best if we could stop that from happening and everyone could have total control over their own lives but you and I both know that sooner rather than later some Neanderthal is gonna figure out how to use the antelopes thigh bone to crack some skulls and start his own little dictatorship. It's human nature.

Now back to the list of entities who seek power. Which one of those has at least a chance of having some self imposed limits? Some checks and balances so to speak?

Looks like elected governments are the only one.

So given that power is going to accumulate somewhere I'd rather it be with the people that I or a majority of the voting public chose to put in charge.

Paraphrase from an article I read somewhere.

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 08:47 PM
I posted a video. How many replied is this that you've said nothing about it?
I watched it and said it was Leftist nonsense. You did nothing more than post it.

I cannot recall that the leftist even mentioned that the Establishment Republicans betrayed the voters. Given that betrayal is why Trump is popular it appears the goofball who made them video has no clue.

Chris
05-21-2016, 09:06 PM
I watched it and said it was Leftist nonsense. You did nothing more than post it.

I cannot recall that the leftist even mentioned that the Establishment Republicans betrayed the voters. Given that betrayal is why Trump is popular it appears the goofball who made them video has no clue.

I summarized what I got out of it. Voters frustrated, feeling betrayed, as you put it, with the government left and right, and so seeking an authoritarian populist. --But repeat myself as your bit about betrayal repeats what I said already.

You've expanded your criticism from "nonsense" to "leftist nonsense." That's deep, and wrong, it's libertarian. Goofball adds nothing. So far you've said nothing about the video.

MisterVeritis
05-21-2016, 09:23 PM
I summarized what I got out of it. Voters frustrated, feeling betrayed, as you put it, with the government left and right, and so seeking an authoritarian populist. --But repeat myself as your bit about betrayal repeats what I said already.

You've expanded your criticism from "nonsense" to "leftist nonsense." That's deep, and wrong, it's libertarian. Goofball adds nothing. So far you've said nothing about the video.
There is essentially no difference between leftist and libertarian leftist.

The video missed the mark. Widely.

This is what you wrote: "Trump is a populist authoritarian, both mentioned above. His popularity is explained in the following video by a shift of authoritarianism from the left Democrats to the right Republicans going on for some time now."

Whenever I believe I wrote something I clearly did not I have a doctor check my medication levels.

Refugee
05-21-2016, 10:44 PM
Size increased to be readable.

Testing
Calibri body 11p
Calibri body 14p
Forum increase Arial font size 4

Refugee
05-22-2016, 12:03 AM
Re: The vid.

‘It should be heart breaking to every American that we have a front runner that suggests there will be a religious test for anybody who wishes to come to our shores.’

Why? When it has been repeatedly proven that a particular religion is not compatible with western norms and values. The same is happening in several European countries that are now erecting border fences and learned the hard way that religious differences and cultures are not all compatible. Isn’t it basic sense to vet people of an ideological cult, that don’t get on with others anywhere in the world, treat women as possessions, kill gays, subscribe to honour killings . . .

As for extreme, he hasn’t said anything to my knowledge that isn’t being echoed throughout Europe. Different yes and that’s because he disrupted the US two party system; he rocked the boat, made inappropriate comments and deviated from the script.
How did he attract such popular support? Eight years of change you can believe in that very few believe in anymore and so it’s back to the same old Dem v GOP circus performance, or Trump.

Amanda Taub - now explain why the biggest authoritarians in the 20th century were decidedly not Republican or right wing.
As traditional values are forcibly replaced by alternative cultural ones using identity politics, Trump is the backlash; it really is as simple as that. Tradition in itself is authoritarian, but involving a consensus and what Obama failed to do is convince and the political correctness used to stifle that dissent masked the deep disquiet which is now coming to the fore via Trump.
I want surveillance of certain mosques? That’s standard practice by the security services in Europe.

OK, so you’ve had your gay rights and drugs freedom. You’re tip toeing around careful not to cause offence, you’ve been taught to be culturally sensitive to the point of colour blindness and come to accept that transgendered snowdrops and wannabe fire engines have a valid point of view, but . . .

Amanda Taub, you’re wrong. Social historians will not be studying the Trump phenomenon, they will be studying why it took eight years for it to happen and why Obama was able to put nearly a third of America on welfare, Pelosi convince them that government dependency creates wealth and why a majority America couldn’t fathom out that spreading the wealth around, you didn’t build that on your own and collectivisation coming from a Marxist, isn't Marxism. Cry your heart out Bernie Madoff :smiley:

AZ Jim
05-22-2016, 12:49 AM
Jon Stewart has him pegged. He calls him a manbaby.

Refugee
05-22-2016, 01:29 AM
Jon Stewart has him pegged. He calls him a manbaby.

No Jim, this is ‘Manbaby’
:smiley_ROFLMAO:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YMXoMhQa54

Peter1469
05-22-2016, 04:28 AM
Calibri body 14 is readable.

I use Times New Roman 12


Testing
Calibri body 11p
Calibri body 14p
Forum increase Arial font size 4

Peter1469
05-22-2016, 04:30 AM
Dems come up with some stupid things to accuse Trump of.

Manboy: well Obama has that covered.

Sexual predator: Bill beat him to it.

Do these people think?



No Jim, this is ‘Manbaby’
:smiley_ROFLMAO:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YMXoMhQa54

Refugee
05-22-2016, 04:39 AM
Calibri body 14 is readable.

I use Times New Roman 12

Testing Times new Roman 12

Refugee
05-22-2016, 05:18 AM
Dems come up with some stupid things to accuse Trump of.

Manboy: well Obama has that covered.

Sexual predator: Bill beat him to it.

Do these people think?

Elsewhere (Rossiter, L. H, 2005) argues that fantasies producing beliefs based on irrational thought, are seen as a neurosis; a distortion in child development, which I’d argue resemble a psychosis.

You can see the almost childlike behaviour, similar to a child confronting another child in Pelosi’s behaviour in the link. Protest marches also have a similar resemblance ‘gimmedat’ and a refusal often provokes violence. It stems from a belief that the world owes you something and not giving then becomes a form of theft as it rightfully belongs to you anyway.

It’s why Republicans become the hated father figures who say ‘no’ and is where the foot stamping, sticking out the tongue and childish jibes come from.
I think Obama successfully tapped into this mode of thought when he promised change you can believe in and the audacity of hope and where the Nazi, fascist and white supremacy comments against Trump arise from, sound bites easily recognisable by childish minds.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy0aMY2-tYE

Refugee
05-22-2016, 05:55 AM
Time to do some work this evening, so end with a little patriotic rant :smiley:

You know, as an outsider I shake my head at what is going on in the US. You have the constitution, so many rights, you put people on the moon and design Google . . . the potential is staggering and you give it away to a bunch of radicals and Marxists in exchange for empty promises of equality, corporations who exploit you and bankers who rob you. Getting rid of that would be change and if the GOP and Democrats won’t do it, elect someone who will promise to do so and give him a chance.

When this

14749

Replaces this

14750

That’s when the blinds will come up it will all fall into place.

Chris
05-22-2016, 10:21 AM
There is essentially no difference between leftist and libertarian leftist.

The video missed the mark. Widely.

This is what you wrote: "Trump is a populist authoritarian, both mentioned above. His popularity is explained in the following video by a shift of authoritarianism from the left Democrats to the right Republicans going on for some time now."

Whenever I believe I wrote something I clearly did not I have a doctor check my medication levels.


And yet again you offer absolutely no criticism of video or what I said. Only stupid ad hom.

MisterVeritis
05-22-2016, 10:28 AM
Calibri body 14 is readable.

I use Times New Roman 12
I just skip by his stuff as unreadable.

MisterVeritis
05-22-2016, 10:29 AM
And yet again you offer absolutely no criticism of video or what I said. Only stupid ad hom.It is not worth my time to dig through an idiotic video you posted to refute the idiotic points. :-)

Whatever it was you intended, you failed.

Chris
05-22-2016, 12:36 PM
^^This!! :thinking:

Chris
05-22-2016, 12:59 PM
Yuval Levin's The Fractured Republic (http://www.basicbooks.com/full-details?isbn=9780465061969&version=meter+at+5&module=meter-Links&pgtype=article&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.realclearreligion.org%2F&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click):


Americans today are frustrated and anxious. Our economy is sluggish, and leaves workers insecure. Income inequality, cultural divisions, and political polarization increasingly pull us apart. Our governing institutions often seem paralyzed. And our politics has failed to rise to these challenges.

No wonder, then, that Americans--and the politicians who represent them--are overwhelmingly nostalgic for a better time. The Left looks back to the middle of the twentieth century, when unions were strong, large public programs promised to solve pressing social problems, and the movements for racial integration and sexual equality were advancing. The Right looks back to the Reagan Era, when deregulation and lower taxes spurred the economy, cultural traditionalism seemed resurgent, and America was confident and optimistic. Each side thinks returning to its golden age could solve America's problems.

In The Fractured Republic, Yuval Levin argues that this politics of nostalgia is failing twenty-first-century Americans. Both parties are blind to how America has changed over the past half century--as the large, consolidated institutions that once dominated our economy, politics, and culture have fragmented and become smaller, more diverse, and personalized. Individualism, dynamism, and liberalization have come at the cost of dwindling solidarity, cohesion, and social order. This has left us with more choices in every realm of life but less security, stability, and national unity.

Both our strengths and our weaknesses are therefore consequences of these changes. And the dysfunctions of our fragmented national life will need to be answered by the strengths of our decentralized, diverse, dynamic nation....