Hyper-masculinity and social rejection are responsible for violence in the U.S.

[spunkloaf]

Hyper-masculinity and social rejection are responsible for violence in the U.S.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were born healthy innocent babies to normal middle-class families. They became friends and endured together through their troubled teenage years. It is possible that they both independently developed a severe mental illness by their own biological circumstances and just happened to suffer the same mental illness, but the chances of that being the case with no other outside influences would be one of the most rarest phenomenons this world had experienced. Their mental illnesses may have developed independent from one another, but it was likely to be entirely brought on from the external (yet similar) influences they both witnessed in their own lives.

Both boys were brought up in a culture where men and boys endure especially extreme expectations in society. Males are expected to express their gender identities by being worthy of respect, being strong, having a sexual superiority, and being feared by other people. In this culture, males tend to coalesce into a hierarchal pack dominated by alphas. Typically, just as in many species, males need to "compete" to earn their place in the hierarchal groups they inhabit.

By these standards, society doesn't seem to have a problem with justifying our hierarchal ways by comparing it to the natural tendencies of other species. Yet all the while, we still have the need to separate ourselves from animals because of our human "sanctity of life." It is an interesting hypocrisy, or at least an inconsistency which we are comfortable ignoring about ourselves.

Eric and Dylan lived this kind of male conflict first hand. Neither was good at sports, neither was very big or muscular, both were picked on by other males who felt the need to disrespect them as weaklings in order to secure their own respect by others. Eric and Dylan are the perfect example of what our problem is in this society. We have a persistent need to fight each other to the "top", which means that among everybody in between, there has to be a winner and a loser. We are conditioned with this image so intensely, and the formula for it is that the harder you are beaten down, the harder you fight back. It's a do or die kind of society, and our pride and honor are the most sacred values as men.

Because of this, the "losers" are presented with very few choices in life: give up what is most important about your manhood and be the "bitch" forever, kill yourself and be done with the suffering altogether, or prove yourself and make your big comeback to gain the masculine respect you deserve.

In the case of the Columbine massacre, Eric and Dylan were a tragic byproduct of this warped perception in our society. They were raised with the perception that they could only be happy if they embodied the image of the successful male our society has created. Yet they had been oppressed, humiliated, and beaten down so much that they were cornered into a violent internal hell in which they teamed together to escape from. Their actions in taking innocent lives was a testament to how they felt their own innocence must be replaced by an assertive male dominance in order to finally gain respect, and the inhumane way they carried it out was a projection of the inhumanity that they felt had been done to them for so long. They wanted to be feared. They wanted to make a strong impact for once. They felt this was the only way to get back that which they felt had been taken from them. And tragically, at the cost of many young and innocent lives, they finally got what they wanted.

What is most disturbing about Columbine is that it is a harsh lesson in our warped perceptions about our places among society. Perhaps that is why many people don't want to recognize the problem, because it reveals that we are all components in the perpetuation of this societal norm, and that we're all small contributors to these violent tragedies which are occurring more often as time goes by. We try to blame it on guns. We try to blame it on politics and regulations. We try to blame it on rock and roll, movies, and the media. We forget that these all are merely tools we use to build and preserve our human progress. The last thing we even want to consider is that it is ourselves, and how we create these vile perceptions among one another. Denial is a natural reaction to such an idea, but we can no longer afford to let it keep us from dealing with this issue.

This is not something that regulation can reform. This is not something any congressperson, senator, or president can fix. This is a problem that is deeply rooted in all cultures, and the ways we conduct ourselves on the interpersonal level. If we can recognize this, the healing can begin. Our mentors and idols need to demonstrate more empathy, humanity, and dignity. Our ideas that any human can be counted insignificant because of their status needs to be abolished. This will take a lot of time, and so we need to also be persistent about it.

It may also seem like a liberal and progressive type of idea. It is not. It is a very basic and righteous concept, where the only ones who can benefit are everybody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS_0qCEsapI

[The Xl]

You mean the gun violence that has been in a statistical freefall for years?

[Cigar]

http://img.ifcdn.com/images/3387b620ad9f90cad4af18f5d378516066bd4a453768877f42 1c6e42b38cd45a_1.jpg (https://ifunny.co/tags/hulk/1438534817)

[Common Sense]

You mean the gun violence that has been in a statistical freefall for years?

I don't think it's addressing gun violence associated with criminal activities like robbery etc.... It's addressing the issue of mass shootings and the feeling of rejection from society for some.

[Private Pickle]

I don't think it's addressing gun violence associated with criminal activities like robbery etc.... It's addressing the issue of mass shootings and the feeling of rejection from society for some.

Rejection from society? Because we don't want our rights stripped? Sorry if they feel rejected but that isn't enough for me to give up my rights.

[The Xl]

This country should take mental health more seriously. That said, the varying levels of mental illness a decent percent of our society may have has not translated to a very high rate of violence per capita.

[Common Sense]

Rejection from society? Because we don't want our rights stripped? Sorry if they feel rejected but that isn't enough for me to give up my rights.

That's not what is being discussed.

[Private Pickle]

That's not what is being discussed.


I don't think it's addressing gun violence associated with criminal activities like robbery etc.... It's addressing the issue of mass shootings and the feeling of rejection from society for some.

How are they being rejected?

[Common Sense]

How are they being rejected?

Maybe read the OP.

[Private Pickle]

Maybe read the OP.

Oh I see. We are defending mass shooters now because of their feelings. My bad.

[Common Sense]

Oh I see. We are defending mass shooters now because of their feelings. My bad.

Defending? Where?

You know that explaining and defending are two different things, right?

[Mister D]

Both boys were brought up in a culture where men and boys endure especially extreme expectations in society. Males are expected to express their gender identities by being worthy of respect, being strong, having a sexual superiority, and being feared by other people. In this culture, males tend to coalesce into a hierarchal pack dominated by alphas. Typically, just as in many species, males need to "compete" to earn their place in the hierarchal groups they inhabit.

This is a perennial feature of human societies and is prevalent around the globe today yet random, senseless slaughter seems more common in the developed world than anywhere else. Why might that be?

[Mister D]

Oh I see. We are defending mass shooters now because of their feelings. My bad.

I will give credit to spunkloaf. He missed his target but he's on the right track.

[spunkloaf]

You mean the gun violence that has been in a statistical freefall for years?
No, I mean the violence in general which has been growing increasingly more apparent in society. I'm not sure how you missed that.

[Private Pickle]

Defending? Where?

You know that explaining and defending are two different things, right?

There really is no explanation for mass shootings other than those doing it are crazy murderers...

[spunkloaf]

Rejection from society? Because we don't want our rights stripped? Sorry if they feel rejected but that isn't enough for me to give up my rights.
What do you assume this is a discussion about?

[spunkloaf]

Oh I see. We are defending mass shooters now because of their feelings. My bad.
Not defending, explaining. Could you at least try and keep things within the context?

[Mister D]

There is great value in looking for answers. I just don't think we're going to like those answers.

[Common Sense]

There really is no explanation for mass shootings other than those doing it are crazy murderers...

Wow...are you a psychologist?

[Private Pickle]

Wow...are you a psychologist?

Ad hom.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize someone who shoots 100 people because they are gay is insane....

Why? Are you a psychologist?

[spunkloaf]

This is a perennial feature of human societies and is prevalent around the globe today yet random, senseless slaughter seems more common in the developed world than anywhere else. Why might that be?
Because we are teaching the wrong message about masculinity and manhood to our youth, which is creating undue stress and misperceptions of success within them as they grow older. And they are growing up in the developed world with more access and disrespect to the tools which can be misused to create that senseless slaughter on a mass scale.

There is a similar problem of hyper-feminism among females, but I believe it is largely influenced and encouraged by the hyper-masculinity among their male counterparts.

[Mister D]

Because we are teaching the wrong message about masculinity and manhood to our youth, which is creating undue stress and misperceptions of success within them as they grow older. And they are growing up in the developed world with more access and disrespect to the tools which can be misused to create that senseless slaughter on a mass scale.

There is a similar problem of hyper-feminism among females, but I believe it is largely influenced and encouraged by the hyper-masculinity among their male counterparts.

Again, this has been a feature of cultures all over the world for eons. Was mass murder common in the past? Was it common even in our own past? I doubt very much that the murderous rage caused by gender norms was somehow curtailed until the advent of modern firearms.

[Common Sense]

Ad hom.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize someone who shoots 100 people because they are gay is insane....

Why? Are you a psychologist?


Awww....

No I'm not a psychologist. I mocked your simplistic analysis because it over simplified a complex issue.

[decedent]

i can't imagine why all of these mass shooters would be socially excluded. They all seemed perfectly normal to me.

[Peter1469]

Because we are teaching the wrong message about masculinity and manhood to our youth, which is creating undue stress and misperceptions of success within them as they grow older. And they are growing up in the developed world with more access and disrespect to the tools which can be misused to create that senseless slaughter on a mass scale.

There is a similar problem of hyper-feminism among females, but I believe it is largely influenced and encouraged by the hyper-masculinity among their male counterparts.

We have been suppressing masculinity. Boys are told they are abnormal if they act like boys. They get put on kiddie downers and other drugs that come with black box warnings about murder and suicide. The two clowns in the OP were on them.

[Common Sense]

We have been suppressing masculinity. Boys are told they are abnormal if they act like boys. They get put on kiddie downers and other drugs that come with black box warnings about murder and suicide. The two clowns in the OP were on them.

That's a load.

[Peter1469]

That's a load.

False. Read. Learn. Then post.

[Common Sense]

False. Read. Learn. Then post.

I suggest you take your own advice.

[Cletus]

Hyper-masculinity is not a problem in evidence on this forum.

[Common]

Im sure my older view will be rejected. When I was a kid parent still taught their kids respect for elders, you were taught never to laugh at those that are handicapped or inferm. You were taught to open doors for women let them walk first and to protect them. Parents didnt try to make you right when you were wrong.

The violence from when I was a teen and a young man has gone through the roof.
I know the left will soil themselves when I say Rap music and video games has had the greatest impact but ive never been one to care who likes what I say.

Attempts to make males more effeminate by indoctrination failed and now its gone in the opposite direction. Thats why the MMA is a raging success.

There is no fix in sight for the level of violence in our society. I think its going to get worse

[Peter1469]

I suggest you take your own advice.

You could do some basic research. Books have been written on the subject.

lol. I bet you identify as a feminist. :wink:

[Mister D]

You could do some basic research. Books have been written on the subject.

lol. I bet you identify as a feminist. :wink:

lol He's exactly the type of "man" who does.

[Common Sense]

LOL...yeah, you two are real men.

[Mister D]

LOL...yeah, you two are real men.

I'd ask what you think a real man is but I suspect you'll tell me a feminist. lol

[Mister D]

Then again, no one here seems to know what a feminist is so I guess you've got that going for you. Maybe it means burly, beer drinking hockey players. Shrug.

[William]

Im sure my older view will be rejected. When I was a kid parent still taught their kids respect for elders, you were taught never to laugh at those that are handicapped or inferm. You were taught to open doors for women let them walk first and to protect them. Parents didnt try to make you right when you were wrong.

The violence from when I was a teen and a young man has gone through the roof.
I know the left will soil themselves when I say Rap music and video games has had the greatest impact but ive never been one to care who likes what I say.

Attempts to make males more effeminate by indoctrination failed and now its gone in the opposite direction. Thats why the MMA is a raging success.

There is no fix in sight for the level of violence in our society. I think its going to get worse

Actually, I agree with your 'older view'. Even though I'm a bit younger than you, I have been taught respect for my elders (part of the reason I don't say what I really think to some people here, :wink:) never to make fun of people who handicapped in any way, to show respect for ladies (I always stand when a lady enters or leaves the room,) and my mouldies never take my part in any disagreement at school (for example).

I dunno about attempts to make males more effeminate - but there's lots of pressure to be macho and tough. You have to be good at sports - and that's OK. I'm not that bad at most, but I'm not big built enough to be good at contact sports, like rugby union.

And I think teaching boys to be tough is good, cos you don't get bullied as much if you can give as good as you get. But where it goes wrong is when kids who think they are tough turn into buillies themselves, and other kids are scared of them. There's nothing manly about making weaker guys scared of you. Me and my mates try to protect the smaller kids from those bullies - now that we are bigger ourselves.

I think part of the 'fix' for violence is all of us having enough self-confidence to be comfortable with what we are, and not try to be something we aren't. Like I would love to be 2 metres tall and weight 90 kilos, but I'm not and I don't think I will ever be (my dad is quite tall but with a slight build). I know I will never play rugby for Australia, but I'm considered a very good batsman (often hit sixes), and I quite often win my class in Junior Motocross, so I don't feel that bad about myself. I don't need to beat up some kid who is weaker than me to feel OK about myself.

I also think one of the big problems is gangs. Kids think they are something more if they are part of a gang, and I think grownups do the same. Like you can be as weak as p**s, and as thick as two short planks, but if the gang is powerful - you can kid yourself you are too. And you will do things you would never do alone, just cos you are part of that gang.

But I don't think rap (which I hate) or video games (which I play) have anything to do with people being violent - well maybe some really mindless first-person-shooter role-playing games. (I like realistic strategy and war games.) So my generation is really not that different from yours. :smiley:

[Dr. Who]

This is a perennial feature of human societies and is prevalent around the globe today yet random, senseless slaughter seems more common in the developed world than anywhere else. Why might that be?
Essentially because the developed world has more time to think. If your every waking hour is consumed with things that you have to do to survive, you don't have time to really dwell on what's fair or not fair. You do what you must to survive. If you are a third world kid who has to ride a bike three to ten miles to get to school as do most of the rest, they are there for the luxury of receiving an education and they take that privilege very seriously. First world kids take going to school for granted. They mostly don't even walk to school anymore - they are bused or driven. The don't appreciate the gift that they are being given, so they have time to form social packs and vie for social superiority. They get these ideas from their families who also believe in dividing society into the strong and the weak, the pretty and the ugly, the popular and the dweebs. Kids are pretty primitive and cruel.

[del]

Defending? Where?

You know that explaining and defending are two different things, right?

probably not

[William]

yEssentially because the developed world has more time to think. If your every waking hour is consumed with things that you have to do to survive, you don't have time to really dwell on what's fair or not fair. You do what you must to survive. If you are a third world kid who has to ride a bike three to ten miles to get to school as do most of the rest, they are there for the luxury of receiving an education and they take that privilege very seriously. First world kids take going to school for granted. They mostly don't even walk to school anymore - they are bused or driven. The don't appreciate the gift that they are being given, so they have time to form social packs and vie for social superiority. They get these ideas from their families who also believe in dividing society into the strong and the weak, the pretty and the ugly, the popular and the dweebs. Kids are pretty primitive and cruel.

All that is true, except most third world kids don't have a bike to ride to school - their dads would be lucky to own a bike - so they walk the three to five miles to school. :smiley:

[Dr. Who]

Actually, I agree with your 'older view'. Even though I'm a bit younger than you, I have been taught respect for my elders (part of the reason I don't say what I really think to some people here, :wink:) never to make fun of people who handicapped in any way, to show respect for ladies (I always stand when a lady enters or leaves the room,) and my mouldies never take my part in any disagreement at school (for example).

I dunno about attempts to make males more effeminate - but there's lots of pressure to be macho and tough. You have to be good at sports - and that's OK. I'm not that bad at most, but I'm not big built enough to be good at contact sports, like rugby union.

And I think teaching boys to be tough is good, cos you don't get bullied as much if you can give as good as you get. But where it goes wrong is when kids who think they are tough turn into buillies themselves, and other kids are scared of them. There's nothing manly about making weaker guys scared of you. Me and my mates try to protect the smaller kids from those bullies - now that we are bigger ourselves.

I think part of the 'fix' for violence is all of us having enough self-confidence to be comfortable with what we are, and not try to be something we aren't. Like I would love to be 2 metres tall and weight 90 kilos, but I'm not and I don't think I will ever be (my dad is quite tall but with a slight build). I know I will never play rugby for Australia, but I'm considered a very good batsman (often hit sixes), and I quite often win my class in Junior Motocross, so I don't feel that bad about myself. I don't need to beat up some kid who is weaker than me to feel OK about myself.

I also think one of the big problems is gangs. Kids think they are something more if they are part of a gang, and I think grownups do the same. Like you can be as weak as p**s, and as thick as two short planks, but if the gang is powerful - you can kid yourself you are too. And you will do things you would never do alone, just cos you are part of that gang.

But I don't think rap (which I hate) or video games (which I play) have anything to do with people being violent - well maybe some really mindless first-person-shooter role-playing games. (I like realistic strategy and war games.) So my generation is really not that different from yours. :smiley:
There is a saying in computer tech - garbage in - garbage out. I think it also applies to people. Whilst you have considerate and thoughtful parents, many do not. In the circumstances, those without thoughtful parents are far more influenced by media, so I think that Common has a point. The message in rap or video games may not be appropriate to social harmony, but absent good parental influences, children are far more likely to succumb to these influences.

[Common]

LOL...yeah, you two are real men.

Well you do have some honest perception left, Thank God

[Common]

Actually, I agree with your 'older view'. Even though I'm a bit younger than you, I have been taught respect for my elders (part of the reason I don't say what I really think to some people here, :wink:) never to make fun of people who handicapped in any way, to show respect for ladies (I always stand when a lady enters or leaves the room,) and my mouldies never take my part in any disagreement at school (for example).

I dunno about attempts to make males more effeminate - but there's lots of pressure to be macho and tough. You have to be good at sports - and that's OK. I'm not that bad at most, but I'm not big built enough to be good at contact sports, like rugby union.

And I think teaching boys to be tough is good, cos you don't get bullied as much if you can give as good as you get. But where it goes wrong is when kids who think they are tough turn into buillies themselves, and other kids are scared of them. There's nothing manly about making weaker guys scared of you. Me and my mates try to protect the smaller kids from those bullies - now that we are bigger ourselves.

I think part of the 'fix' for violence is all of us having enough self-confidence to be comfortable with what we are, and not try to be something we aren't. Like I would love to be 2 metres tall and weight 90 kilos, but I'm not and I don't think I will ever be (my dad is quite tall but with a slight build). I know I will never play rugby for Australia, but I'm considered a very good batsman (often hit sixes), and I quite often win my class in Junior Motocross, so I don't feel that bad about myself. I don't need to beat up some kid who is weaker than me to feel OK about myself.

I also think one of the big problems is gangs. Kids think they are something more if they are part of a gang, and I think grownups do the same. Like you can be as weak as p**s, and as thick as two short planks, but if the gang is powerful - you can kid yourself you are too. And you will do things you would never do alone, just cos you are part of that gang.

But I don't think rap (which I hate) or video games (which I play) have anything to do with people being violent - well maybe some really mindless first-person-shooter role-playing games. (I like realistic strategy and war games.) So my generation is really not that different from yours. :smiley:

I dont advocate raising boys to be tough William, I believe they should be raised as boys and not molded by society into some hybrid male female thinking clone.

Its proven but unreported that video games have a psychological effect not only on young boys and girls but young adults also. The video game industry is HUGE and SUPER RICH.

Rap is the biggest lie in this country its nothing but hate and violence and it is the number one source of breeding men to bully, disrespect women, the left condemns attitudes and crime against women but they defend rap music, while young men have earbuds having beat in their head the entire gamut from crime, racism, Ho's, bitchs, kill cops, etc. This is another thing that has turned me away from the left over a period. There is no defense for rap music content. Of course the left here at lalaland will instantly label this a racist hate thread.

[Common]

We have been suppressing masculinity. Boys are told they are abnormal if they act like boys. They get put on kiddie downers and other drugs that come with black box warnings about murder and suicide. The two clowns in the OP were on them.

Thats exactly what the problem is and I didnt want to get in this.

Ive been playing world of warcraft for 11 yrs, two boys sons of my friends were 9 and 10 and played wow with us now and then. BOTH of them are combat veterans today, to give you the scope that 11 yrs encompassed two different generations.

Peter the boys used to get in trouble for talking boy girl talk and sex things with girls like boys do. If they went to far one of the mothers online would report them.

Now most of the talk is gay this and gay that. No they arent all gay and most of it is jabber but instead of being about GIRLS its about gayness. That attitude comes directly from the schools.

Of course this will turn into common is a homophobe and hates gays.
Sorry progressives, I tell it like I see it not like you want it and that doesnt mean im hateful or hate anyone. I refuse to be a far left progressive and deny the truth for an agenda

[William]

I dont advocate raising boys to be tough William, I believe they should be raised as boys and not molded by society into some hybrid male female thinking clone.

Its proven but unreported that video games have a psychological effect not only on young boys and girls but young adults also. The video game industry is HUGE and SUPER RICH.

Rap is the biggest lie in this country its nothing but hate and violence and it is the number one source of breeding men to bully, disrespect women, the left condemns attitudes and crime against women but they defend rap music, while young men have earbuds having beat in their head the entire gamut from crime, racism, Ho's, bitchs, kill cops, etc. This is another thing that has turned me away from the left over a period. There is no defense for rap music content. Of course the left here at lalaland will instantly label this a racist hate thread.

Fair points, but I don't see these things as being left wing or right wing. I know that I was time limited on the video games I was allowed to play when I was little, and I guess there were reasons for that (though I didn't like it much). Now, the amount of spare time I have from homework and sports, limits my video games anyway.

Things like rap are not such a big deal where I live, and while I don't think what you are saying is racist, it's probably much stronger in the USA cos of your coloured ghettoes. I don't know of any of my mates who are into rap - they are more likely to send up rap than listen to it.

For me, rap sucks, and not just for the mindless words. I am studying music, and I play the piano, and rap is just talking to a beat. For something to be music it has to have melody, and harmony (and loads of other things) - not just a beat. But rap appeals to people with no musical ability - like it's so much easier than learning musical theory, or an instrument, or having voice training. So they kid themselves they are 'performers'.

And I live in a different society from you, so I don't see or hear anyone 'on the left' (never totally sure what that means) defending rap. In fact, I very seldom see or hear rap - I'm more likely to see buskers performing old traditional Irish songs. :smiley:

[Mister D]

Essentially because the developed world has more time to think. If your every waking hour is consumed with things that you have to do to survive, you don't have time to really dwell on what's fair or not fair. You do what you must to survive. If you are a third world kid who has to ride a bike three to ten miles to get to school as do most of the rest, they are there for the luxury of receiving an education and they take that privilege very seriously. First world kids take going to school for granted. They mostly don't even walk to school anymore - they are bused or driven. The don't appreciate the gift that they are being given, so they have time to form social packs and vie for social superiority. They get these ideas from their families who also believe in dividing society into the strong and the weak, the pretty and the ugly, the popular and the dweebs. Kids are pretty primitive and cruel.

First I would point out that this isn't about children. Most mass murderers are not adolescents. Secondly, while children certainly have a great deal more time to dwell on their lives than they did in the past I don't think that's true of adults particularly American adults who work quite a bit. Indeed, the pace of modern life is a lot faster. There are simply many more things for us to do. Now you're correct that much of what we do is not directly related to our biological survival but it doesn't need to be as long as we perceive those things to be important.

Personally, I think social atomism is at the root of this phenomenon. We lead increasingly isolated lives in a deeply competitive social environment and I don't think that's healthy or natural.

[Dr. Who]

First I would point out that this isn't about children. Most mass murderers are not adolescents. Secondly, while children certainly have a great deal more time to dwell on their lives than they did in the past I don't think that's true of adults particularly American adults who work quite a bit. Indeed, the pace of modern life is a lot faster. There are simply many more things for us to do. Now you're correct that much of what we do is not directly related to our biological survival but it doesn't need to be as long as we perceive those things to be important.

Personally, I think social atomism is at the root of this phenomenon. We lead increasingly isolated lives in a deeply competitive social environment and I don't think that's healthy or natural.
Most are not that far past adolescence - often late teens or early twenties, so the effects of their school experiences may still be with them. That said, as a society we are becoming more socially isolated and communicating with each other more through devices than face to face. We went from living with extended families in small villages to the nuclear family, to the nuclear family where the family members do not actually interact but lead separate and individual lives within a household.

[Mister D]

Most are not that far past adolescence - often late teens or early twenties, so the effects of their school experiences may still be with them. That said, as a society we are becoming more socially isolated and communicating with each other more through devices than face to face. We went from living with extended families in small villages to the nuclear family, to the nuclear family where the family members do not actually interact but lead separate and individual lives within a household.

The average age of mass murderers is somewhere in the mid 30s. They're typically adults and it's the adult world, it's demands and its humiliations that drive men mad.

I agree about the family. I was watching EWTN last night (a Catholic network that has some great shows) and someone argued that what we've seen is the family unit go from having a sacred, encompassing character (i.e. one draws his identity from his family) to the family perceived as merely an economic unit to the family perceived as something to be liberated from. There is a lot of truth to that.

[Dr. Who]

The average age of mass murderers is somewhere in the mid 30s. They're typically adults and it's the adult world, it's demands and its humiliations that drive men mad.

I agree about the family. I was watching EWTN last night (a Catholic network that has some great shows) and someone argued that what we've seen is the family unit go from having a sacred, encompassing character (i.e. one draws his identity from his family) to the family perceived as merely an economic unit to the family perceived as something to be liberated from. There is a lot of truth to that.
Well, arguably, I think the median age of these killers has been dropping lately, at least in America and that competition is infiltrating the world of students as well as adults. I think the notion of entitlement comes into it as well. We have been raising people to increasingly believe that the world owes them something.

[Cthulhu]

This is a perennial feature of human societies and is prevalent around the globe today yet random, senseless slaughter seems more common in the developed world than anywhere else. Why might that be?
Rejection of agrarian ways, and high population densities in urban centers are my thinking.

I forget the exact study, but they did an experiment with mice and the overpopulating caused all manner of problems.

Humans are having a striking parallel.

Methinks that the constant bombardment of the EM spectrum interest over the last 20 has something to do with it too.

Massive increase of psychotropic prescriptions as well.


Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[Mister D]

Rejection of agrarian ways, and high population densities in urban centers are my thinking.

I forget the exact study, but they did an experiment with mice and the overpopulating caused all manner of problems.

Humans are having a striking parallel.

Methinks that the constant bombardment of the EM spectrum interest over the last 20 has something to do with it too.

Massive increase of psychotropic prescriptions as well.


Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Developed societies are relatively under-populated. Our conservatives won't appreciate my view but I think this is rooted in radical individualism and economism.

[Mister D]

Well, arguably, I think the median age of these killers has been dropping lately, at least in America and that competition is infiltrating the world of students as well as adults. I think the notion of entitlement comes into it as well. We have been raising people to increasingly believe that the world owes them something.

I don't. They tend to be adults and I think we are owed something: meaning and belonging. We're being reduced to a commodity.

[Peter1469]

Developed societies are relatively under-populated. Our conservatives won't appreciate my view but I think this is rooted in radical individualism and economism.

What is the difference between individualism and radical individualism?

[Dr. Who]

I don't. They tend to be adults and I think we are owed something: meaning and belonging. We're being reduced to a commodity.
That reduction to a commodity has been occurring since the industrial revolution and the movement of people from rural areas to industrial centres.

[Peter1469]

I would call that the natural progression of humanity on par with the shift from hunter-gatherer to agrarian that started about 10,000 years ago.

[Mister D]

What is the difference between individualism and radical individualism?

The difference between valuing the individual person and reducing society to him. A society is more than the sum of its parts.

[Mister D]

That reduction to a commodity has been occurring since the industrial revolution and the movement of people from rural areas to industrial centres.

Urban life in itself is irrelevant. Urban societies have been remarkably cohesive throughout the ages. But, yes, it has been happening since economics became the dominant paradigm.

[Cthulhu]

Developed societies are relatively under-populated. Our conservatives won't appreciate my view but I think this is rooted in radical individualism and economism.
Perhaps by the numbers, but they live in overpopulated areas. People shouldn't be living on top of each other.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[Cthulhu]

Urban life in itself is irrelevant. Urban societies have been remarkably cohesive throughout the ages. But, yes, it has been happening since economics became the dominant paradigm.
While I agree that this idolatry of the almighty dollar is certainly problematic. One can't discount the effects modern urban development and population density.

Urban centers of the past housed a fraction of what they do now.

Humans are territorial omnivores and thus require space from one another - generally speaking.

But if I were to strike at the core of the problematic onion - it would be the eradication the nuclear family unit. Children without fathers are breeding grounds for essentially all of societies woes.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

[Mister D]

While I agree that this idolatry of the almighty dollar is certainly problematic. One can't discount the effects modern urban development and population density.

Urban centers of the past housed a fraction of what they do now.

Humans are territorial omnivores and thus require space from one another - generally speaking.

But if I were to strike at the core of the problematic onion - it would be the eradication the nuclear family unit. Children without fathers are breeding grounds for essentially all of societies woes.

Sent from my evil, baby seal-clubbing cellphone.

Modern urban development and population density are only factors to the extent that they help facilitate the anonymity and isolation I referred to but I don't think they are the cause. After all, pre-modern cities were just as densely populated as modern ones if not more. That's because they were often more compact.

I agree about the family but in a more general way. The nuclear family may very well have been a state in the problem.

[Peter1469]

Modern urban development and population density are only factors to the extent that they help facilitate the anonymity and isolation I referred to but I don't think they are the cause. After all, pre-modern cities were just as densely populated as modern ones if not more. That's because they were often more compact.

I agree about the family but in a more general way. The nuclear family may very well have been a state in the problem.

How so?

To add, Don'tread advocates for hunter gatherers over what came after. (That was like 10,000 years ago)

[spunkloaf]

There really is no explanation for mass shootings other than those doing it are crazy murderers...
No offense, but that's just a lazy generalization. In my opinion, the deaths of all those innocent people deserve a better explanation than simply "craziness." For one thing, "crazy" is quite a subjective term. For another, there are bound to be factors which cause a person to go "crazy." To say otherwise is to say "God just made them that way, and therefore caused the murders of all kinds of innocent people for cosmic reasons which we will never be able to understand or change." I for one can't sit easily with that.

[spunkloaf]

Im sure my older view will be rejected. When I was a kid parent still taught their kids respect for elders, you were taught never to laugh at those that are handicapped or inferm. You were taught to open doors for women let them walk first and to protect them. Parents didnt try to make you right when you were wrong.

The violence from when I was a teen and a young man has gone through the roof.
I know the left will soil themselves when I say Rap music and video games has had the greatest impact but ive never been one to care who likes what I say.

Attempts to make males more effeminate by indoctrination failed and now its gone in the opposite direction. Thats why the MMA is a raging success.

There is no fix in sight for the level of violence in our society. I think its going to get worse
I totally agree with the rap music bit you stated. I can't fucking STAND gangsta rap music. It's all about violence, money, bitch-slapping hoes, fucking as many women as you can, treating women like dumb objects who deserve to be disrespected, one-upping every other male with these conquests, and bragging about it all to the entire world. If there's anything that younger generations embrace which further promotes hyper-masculinity, it is gangsta rap and "street" culture. It's truly a step backwards in evolution, and it's a disgrace to all music.
Video games...meh. There's not much difference in video games from movies and TV.

[Mister D]

How so?

To add, Don'tread advocates for hunter gatherers over what came after. (That was like 10,000 years ago)

The nuclear family only became the predominant pattern with the rise of capitalism and industrialization. Is it a coincidence that this pattern emerged precisely when economics became central to western life? Not sure.

Donttread is a bit of a loon when it comes to this sort of thing.

[Peter1469]

The nuclear family only became the predominant pattern with the rise of capitalism and industrialization. Is it a coincidence that this pattern emerged precisely when economics became central to western life? Not sure.

Donttread is a bit of a loon when it comes to this sort of thing.

Don't is our loon. Not a pain like, well....

I always took the rise of the nuclear family to be with mass urbanization. When nations are predominately rural most live with extended families. To the point of clans at times. After the industrial revolution and the mass migration to urban centers that system largely collapsed. It caused a lot of social problems. One: who takes care of the old people. Then the pension system started- as one example.

[Ethereal]

This is a perennial feature of human societies and is prevalent around the globe today yet random, senseless slaughter seems more common in the developed world than anywhere else. Why might that be?

An increasing sense of alienation and the death of spirituality, among other things.

[Ethereal]

There is only one problem with some of the theories being bandied about... violence is actually decreasing in American society.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/10/FT_15.10.13_gunViolence.png

[Peter1469]

Violence world wide is down. Yet some people are hiding under their beds.

Even the Islamists running amok the last decade only stopped the drop. We are more peaceful today than ever.

[spunkloaf]

Again, this has been a feature of cultures all over the world for eons. Was mass murder common in the past? Was it common even in our own past? I doubt very much that the murderous rage caused by gender norms was somehow curtailed until the advent of modern firearms.
I'm not exactly blaming all mass murders on "gender norms." It is interesting to note, however, that almost all what we consider to be "mass murders" are carried out by males. Maybe that is a fact supportive of my point, and maybe it isn't. If you look at American history alone, mass murder has seen a significant and exponential rise. So has violent, hyper-masculine gangsta rap. This tells me that the youth of America is reflecting a gruesome portrait on what they perceive that it is to be a "real man" in modern society. It reflects that "real men" lack empathy and respect, and portray an exaggerated sense of ownership of high quality material possessions (including women) and wealth and status.
I'm not attacking masculinity altogether, only hyper-masculinity...and hyper-feminism, too.

[Ethereal]

I'm just wondering when we're going to start talking about the role that prescription pharmaceuticals have played in these mass shootings.

But politicians and media are beholden to the pharmaceutical industry because of donations and advertising revenue, so they never bring it up.

And for some reason, Americans are not very eager to examine this perspective.

Maybe hitting too close to home for many of them?

[spunkloaf]

We have been suppressing masculinity. Boys are told they are abnormal if they act like boys. They get put on kiddie downers and other drugs that come with black box warnings about murder and suicide. The two clowns in the OP were on them.
You're describing hyper-feminism, which is the antithesis of hyper-masculinity. I believe both are just as guilty of provoking the other. For example, if women would just stop falling for hyper-masculine men and dressing as though they wish to be used and disrespected as the property of the strongest men, then men would not strive to be the biggest, baddest motherfuckers around.

[Peter1469]

I'm just wondering when we're going to start talking about the role that prescription pharmaceuticals have played in these mass shootings.

But politicians and media are beholden to the pharmaceutical industry because of donations and advertising revenue, so they never bring it up.

And for some reason, Americans are not very eager to examine this perspective.

Maybe hitting too close to home for many of them?

I often mention that.

[Mister D]

I'm not exactly blaming all mass murders on "gender norms." It is interesting to note, however, that almost all what we consider to be "mass murders" are carried out by males. Maybe that is a fact supportive of my point, and maybe it isn't. If you look at American history alone, mass murder has seen a significant and exponential rise. So has violent, hyper-masculine gangsta rap. This tells me that the youth of America is reflecting a gruesome portrait on what they perceive that it is to be a "real man" in modern society. It reflects that "real men" lack empathy and respect, and portray an exaggerated sense of ownership of high quality material possessions (including women) and wealth and status.
I'm not attacking masculinity altogether, only hyper-masculinity...and hyper-feminism, too.

That's not even remotely interesting. Most violent crime (as in well over 90%) is perpetrated by males. As for the rap connection, most mass murderers tend be rather pale if you know what I mean.

Look, you sound like a feminist, TBH. What is "hyper-masculinity"? Male behavior that you don't like? That's not going to change. It's hard wired.

[spunkloaf]

You're describing hyper-feminism, which is the antithesis of hyper-masculinity. I believe both are just as guilty of provoking the other. For example, if women would just stop falling for hyper-masculine men and dressing as though they wish to be used and disrespected as the property of the strongest men, then men would not strive to be the biggest, baddest motherfuckers around.
Hyper-masculinity and hyper-feminism curiously follow Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction. The more one extreme builds, the more the other is bound to follow. This is not to say that the "cure" for either extreme is to become entirely sexually neutral as a society. That would be a third and inappropriate extreme.
The trick is to mold the brood according to respectable and natural habits to their gender. I think it is becoming harder to do this in the modern world because we are recognizing variances in gender and sexuality that are new to society.

[Private Pickle]

No offense, but that's just a lazy generalization. In my opinion, the deaths of all those innocent people deserve a better explanation than simply "craziness." For one thing, "crazy" is quite a subjective term. For another, there are bound to be factors which cause a person to go "crazy." To say otherwise is to say "God just made them that way, and therefore caused the murders of all kinds of innocent people for cosmic reasons which we will never be able to understand or change." I for one can't sit easily with that.

Frankly that's because you are part of the reality TV culture that makes up the US today. It's not news...its reality TV.

[Mister D]

Hyper-masculinity and hyper-feminism curiously follow Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction. The more one extreme builds, the more the other is bound to follow. This is not to say that the "cure" for either extreme is to become entirely sexually neutral as a society. That would be a third and inappropriate extreme.
The trick is to mold the brood according to respectable and natural habits to their gender. I think it is becoming harder to do this in the modern world because we are recognizing variances in gender and sexuality that are new to society.

What are these things?

[spunkloaf]

That's not even remotely interesting. Most violent crime (as in well over 90%) is perpetrated by males. As for the rap connection, most mass murderers tend be rather pale if you know what I mean.

Look, you sound like a feminist, TBH. What is "hyper-masculinity"? Male behavior that you don't like? That's not going to change. It's hard wired.
Beating and disrespecting women, calling young boys faggots, and rape are hard wired.

Just shoot me then, please.

[Mister D]

Beating and disrespecting women, calling young boys $#@!s, and rape are hard wired.

Just shoot me then, please.

That's hyper-masculinity? Sounds more like crime.

[The Sage of Main Street]

The pampered weaklings spawned by the 1% need to turn the majority males that could easily overpower them into unprotected emasculated escapists. Minorities are told to express their bestial nature and are turned loose on the beaten-down Whites, further humiliating them.