PDA

View Full Version : The libertarian movement is fringe and it will remain fringe



Mark III
06-19-2016, 09:09 AM
Sorry, Gary Johnson: The libertarian movement is fringe and it will remain fringe"Of course, libertarians can sound almost pathologically rational one minute and ridiculously dogmatic the next, and Trump is essentially correct in his claim: libertarians are on the fringe, and will always remain on the fringe in a Democracy (which is not say that all of their ideas are fringe, but their broad anti-government philosophy is certainly out there).

...When it comes to economics and anti-government dogma, libertarians are even worse than Republicans. One simply has to glance at the Libertarian Party’s 1980 presidential platform (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers) (for which David Koch was the party’s VP candidate) to get an idea at how extreme libertarianism is in its economic policies. The “abolition of Medicare and Medicaid”; the “repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system”; the “eventual repeal of all taxation”; the repeal of the minimum wage; the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency; the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the “immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission”; the “privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”



Libertarians would privatize all of society if they had their way, as was amusingly imagined in Neal Stephenson’s classic science fiction novel “Snow Crash,” where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ..."

MORE http://www.salon.com/2016/06/17/sorry_gary_johnson_the_libertarian_movement_is_fri nge_and_it_will_remain_fringe/

Mark III
06-19-2016, 09:10 AM
The big question supposedly is, can the LP get 15% of polling and make it to the debate stage.

The answer is no.

Peter1469
06-19-2016, 09:36 AM
Many people can't live without the strong hand of government guiding them. Like Mark.

Mark III
06-19-2016, 09:39 AM
Many people can't live without the strong hand of government guiding them. Like Mark.

"where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ...""

that is your utopia. no thanks

Peter1469
06-19-2016, 09:41 AM
"where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ...""

that is your utopia. no thanks

Not mine.

Chris
06-19-2016, 09:45 AM
The big question supposedly is, can the LP get 15% of polling and make it to the debate stage.

The answer is no.


So then your definition of fringe corresponds to the monopolistic control the two major parties hold over the debates. The criteria is silly, you must poll 15% is some unspecified poll, so a poll that refuses to include you can exclude you from national debate. Johnson and Stein are suing over that in court--see http://reason.com/blog/2016/05/25/getting-the-libertarians-into-presidenti.

Chris
06-19-2016, 09:46 AM
"where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ...""

that is your utopia. no thanks


So you would dictate Peter's choices.

Mister D
06-19-2016, 10:14 AM
This is what progressives are generally reduced to when arguing with libertarians: some variation on "not many people agree with you". Just once I'd like to see progressives actually debate a point.

The Xl
06-19-2016, 10:18 AM
This is what progressives are generally reduced to when arguing with libertarians: some variation on "not many people agree with you". Just once I'd like to see progressives actually debate a point.

Most are completely incapable. Like this scholar here.

Mister D
06-19-2016, 10:19 AM
"where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ...""


that is your utopia. no thanks

That's from a science fiction novel. Do you even read your sources?

Mister D
06-19-2016, 10:20 AM
Most are completely incapable. Like this scholar here.

Yes, this appears to be the case. Certainly at tPF.

Chris
06-19-2016, 10:21 AM
This is what progressives are generally reduced to when arguing with libertarians: some variation on "not many people agree with you". Just once I'd like to see progressives actually debate a point.


We could discuss progressive demand for conformity. :D

The Xl
06-19-2016, 10:23 AM
Yes, this appears to be the case. Certainly at tPF.

Polly, Chloe, and Arrow all at least make their case. I salute them for that. These others are poisoning the forum.

donttread
06-19-2016, 12:00 PM
Sorry, Gary Johnson: The libertarian movement is fringe and it will remain fringe

"Of course, libertarians can sound almost pathologically rational one minute and ridiculously dogmatic the next, and Trump is essentially correct in his claim: libertarians are on the fringe, and will always remain on the fringe in a Democracy (which is not say that all of their ideas are fringe, but their broad anti-government philosophy is certainly out there).

...When it comes to economics and anti-government dogma, libertarians are even worse than Republicans. One simply has to glance at the Libertarian Party’s 1980 presidential platform (http://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers) (for which David Koch was the party’s VP candidate) to get an idea at how extreme libertarianism is in its economic policies. The “abolition of Medicare and Medicaid”; the “repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system”; the “eventual repeal of all taxation”; the repeal of the minimum wage; the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency; the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the “immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission”; the “privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”



Libertarians would privatize all of society if they had their way, as was amusingly imagined in Neal Stephenson’s classic science fiction novel “Snow Crash,” where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ..."

MORE http://www.salon.com/2016/06/17/sorry_gary_johnson_the_libertarian_movement_is_fri nge_and_it_will_remain_fringe/

It's not that we're "on the fringe" unless you consider our Constitution to be "fringe". If that's the case will likely not grasp the rest of what I'm about to say.
Th LP's problem is that it only gets people fired up once every four years for a national election it cannot afford to in. We need to take the country from the grass roots up with Town Supervisors and state Assemblymen and build from there.

Common
06-19-2016, 12:02 PM
For once Mark is right, libertarian is a tough sell. Conservatives hate their social side and liberals hate their economic side

Ethereal
06-19-2016, 01:30 PM
Libertarians would privatize all of society if they had their way...

Not this libertarian.

I subscribe to the classical liberal conception of property rights which makes a distinction between private property and common property based on John Locke's labor theory of property.

But I'm glad to see the opponents of libertarian ideology presuming to speak on behalf of all libertarians.

Ethereal
06-19-2016, 01:31 PM
"where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ...""

that is your utopia. no thanks

Oh, gee, one libertarian said that's what he wants in a science fiction novel, so that must mean every libertarian wants the same thing.

Who can argue with that brilliant logic?

Chris
06-19-2016, 01:47 PM
For once Mark is right, libertarian is a tough sell. Conservatives hate their social side and liberals hate their economic side

But the converse is equally true and is why voting Libertarian when Reps and Dems offer no reasonable choice is possible.

PolWatch
06-19-2016, 02:12 PM
Every new movement starts small. The dems/repubs did not spring forth fully formed from Jefferson's brow. People are unhappy with the 2 major parties and are looking for an organization that will represent their beliefs. They will not be very influential during their formation but, in time, they will attract more supporters. If not this year, then maybe 4 years from now. When people realize they don't have to accept one-size-fits-all politics, they usually become more active in finding or creating something to fit their needs. Its the American way.

Green Arrow
06-19-2016, 02:44 PM
The point of the OP (libertarians are on the fringe and will remain on the fringe in a democracy) is moot considering we do not operate as a democracy and give libertarians (or anyone else not Republican or Democrat) a fair shot at running in a democracy.

donttread
06-19-2016, 05:54 PM
For once Mark is right, libertarian is a tough sell. Conservatives hate their social side and liberals hate their economic side

Yeah, only those of us who actually support the BOR's as a package deal like the LP. Which makes the rst of them posers

Mark III
06-19-2016, 08:28 PM
Same old sing song from the "libertarians" here.

The libertarian vision is a utopia. Sure you can make it sound good on a forum, but in reality it is unworkable.

With our economic system you are always going to have tens of millions of people who need government assistance to get by.

End of story.

That's the END of the story, we can't "end" the social safety net. In actuality it is going to expand even further.

Tahuyaman
06-19-2016, 08:28 PM
Many people can't live without the strong hand of government guiding them. Like Mark.


That's true for a lot of simple minded people, but I believe most people are libertarian but just don't know it.

Tahuyaman
06-19-2016, 08:31 PM
"where everything from police forces to highways are privately owned and sovereign territories (“burbclaves,” for suburban enclaves) are run by corporate franchises. ...""

that is your utopia. no thanks


People like ^^^^ seem to think that staunch conservatives or libertarians don't want any government at all. Those people are too simple minded to be reasoned with.

decedent
06-19-2016, 08:38 PM
This is what progressives are generally reduced to when arguing with libertarians: some variation on "not many people agree with you". Just once I'd like to see progressives actually debate a point.

I'd love to use a libertarian society as an example during a debate. Unfortunately, there has never been one.

Mark III
06-19-2016, 09:04 PM
People like ^^^^ seem to think that staunch conservatives or libertarians don't want any government at all. Those people are too simple minded to be reasoned with.

Perhaps unlike you, I have read the Libertarian Party platforms and positions.

Is the libertarian party going to go mainstream? I guess they could get more votes that way but possibly lose their base.

Tahuyaman
06-19-2016, 09:07 PM
Perhaps unlike you, I have read the Libertarian Party platforms and positions.

Is the libertarian party going to go mainstream? I guess they could get more votes that way but possibly lose their base.


Obviously, reading is not your strength.

Your comments are what one gets when they post comments while huffing laughing gas.

Green Arrow
06-19-2016, 10:05 PM
Same old sing song from the "libertarians" here.

The libertarian vision is a utopia. Sure you can make it sound good on a forum, but in reality it is unworkable.

With our economic system you are always going to have tens of millions of people who need government assistance to get by.

End of story.

That's the END of the story, we can't "end" the social safety net. In actuality it is going to expand even further.

I'm not a libertarian. I flirted with their movement in 2012 but have since gone to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Again: Regardless of whether they are "fringe" or not is irrelevant, every single individual in a democracy has the right to fair representation in our government. Our system is highly undemocratic. Every party should be on the ballot in every state and every candidate should be admitted to the debates. That's how a democracy is supposed to function.